Trying to accept that God is loving

[drich0150]

I meant Heaven, if things were reversed. You said "Would you still want to goto Heaven (the fiery pit?)" - I meant that I would question why God would want us in the fiery pit just to be with him.

Because Heaven has absolutely nothing to do with where you are, and everything to do with who your with. You are willing to risk Hell because you love for your family with all of your heart now. Why? Why would you want to live in a fiery pit just to be with the one's you love?

If you can develop the love required we are to have for God (A love that encompasses all of your Heart, Mind, Spirit, and Strength) then what would your surroundings matter at all?

I'm not saying God wants you to burn for your love. My question is designed to help you see what it is you "love" more, God or the idea of the good life.

If all you want is the "good life" then you do not have what is required of you to enter Heaven (God's presents)

Do you think people would worship God if there was no mention at all of a heaven?

The trappings of Heaven may entice some people but as we mature Spiritually the "things" of heaven come in at the bottom of the list of reasons one want to spend eternity with God.

If he wasn't going to reward or punish anyone, would people still do what he asked?

This idea of reward and punishment is medieval christian or Muslim at best. Once you move past the milk of faith and your spirit needs more than just the minimal understanding of God. So yes. the idea that we need a carrot or stick is religion working in your heart. God wants us to be with Him in order to just be with Him. He does not want us to be with Him because of what He can provide for us.

Does love only work for you if that person is providing for you?
Then why should a all encompassing love for God work that way?

Like I have said, I am trying to see it from a different perspective, but right now I only have the one I do.

Don't give up and keep seeking.

If I could see God the way you do, then I would not still ask how he is loving, I would be able to see it and base my faith on that.

Keep an open mind, and Ask Seek and knock for the Holy Spirit.

And, what if I die before finding the answers? Hell seems a little unfair.

No where is it written that we will be resurrected with the understanding we die with. You will be made to see the truth that you have either ignored or simply did not understand. This is why we are told all knees will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord.

I am not saying that I don't want to truth. that is why I am here. But, if it turns out that my family will go to hell, when they are good people, albeit not believers in Jesus, then I do not think I could leave them and focus on getting myself into Heaven.

Did you have a friend in kindergarten? Where is that person now? When we are young our perspective on friends and families are incomplete at best. As we grow our understandings grow and mature. This is not to say you will grow cold or callous for those you love now, but your perspective will indeed change. What did you want to be when you grew up? do you do that now? If you are doing something different now does this mean you have betrayed who you were as a child?

This life is like spiritual kindergarten, we potential have an eternity to mature. just because we "feel" a certain way in kindergarten that does not mean we will always feel that way.

 

[.Iona.]

You are willing to risk Hell because you love for your family with all of your heart now. Why? Why would you want to live in a fiery pit just to be with the one's you love?

Yes. Because I could never be happy knowing that the people I love are suffering. I am not selfish, I cannot think of myself and go after happiness when they are suffering.

This idea of reward and punishment is medieval christian or Muslim at best.

I think the concept of punishment still very much exists. There is the idea of hell - whcih although many do not believe God sends people to hell. The idea of 'if you are good you go to heaven, which is beautiful and peacful, but if you do bad (not follow Jesus) you go to hell, which is evil and horrendous' is an almost perfect example of reward and punishment, and many people see it this way.

You could also argue that telling people they must change themselves - they have to make themselves straight, have a baby they may not have wanted, etc etc - is a form of punishment. Because for someone who is not attracted to a woman and is being told that they are wrong and sinful and to be accepted they have to change can be seen as punishment for their 'sin' - because as far as they can see, they are gay with every being of their body.

But, I digress. What I mean to say, is that to many people heaven and hell is a reward and punishment issue.

Does love only work for you if that person is providing for you?
Then why should a all encompassing love for God work that way?

If a parent says do this and you can come with me to a new house, and everything will be good and wonderful, but if you don't do it then I will leave you here all alone to cope for yourself - how is that loving?

That is how I see God right now. It seems he loves us if we do what he asks, but if we don't he has no qualms about leaving us to go to hell.

It isn't about him providing us with anything, it is about the idea of his love not making sense.

Did you have a friend in kindergarten? Where is that person now? When we are young our perspective on friends and families are incomplete at best. As we grow our understandings grow and mature.

As far as I know my school friends are not suffering in hell, whilst I am in bliss. There is a big big difference here.

 

[.Iona.]

If god exists, he is certainly not loving.

He created us all doomed to burn in eternity. Only by worshipping him can you be saved. What kind of loving god forces you to worship him under punishment of eternal torture?

You seem to understand where I am coming from.

This is what confuses me. People claim that god is loving, but He still allows people to go to hell - which sounds like the worst possible thing to experience. It is like bribery and threatening people to do what he says.

Is is the main thing that causes doubt and makes me question why I would want to worship someone like that - regardless of whether he created me. I can't stop him doing to me what he wants, but I don't know if I could worship him for what is is doing.

 

[.Iona.]

That's sort of like saying no loving judge would condemn a man to death.

The difference is that the judge did not create the person and offer him the choice of heaven or hell.

I, for example, have not killed or harmed anyone, so a judge condemning me to death sounds very unfair doesn't it?

Yet, despite people not killing or harming others, God is technically condeming people to death.

If a man was caught in the act of brutally murdering your entire family and he went before the judge and the judge stated to him, "I am a loving judge, therefore I'm letting you go free", would you consider that judge to be just or corrupt?

Atheists and people of other religions are not brutal murderers. You point makes no sense.

When one states that God would never condemn anyone to hell, it is the same absurdity as stating that a just judge would never condemn a guilty man to death.

Our definitions of guilty clearly are very different.

You also cannot compare a murderer to a normal person who doesn't believe in God.

He is loving, but He is also just. Rejecting His offer to be forgiven and justified does not lessen his love one bit.

No it isn't loving. Loving would be not condemning people to an eternity of torture for something so simple as not following Jesus.

That is as far from loving as possible.

He may love us now, but that soon changes if we do not do want he wants us to do. I believe it is better to say that God loves those who do what he asks. Because having a hell, and allowing his children to suffer for eternity for 80yrs or so max of 'sin'/ not believing in him, is not loving at all. That is clear to see.

 

[drich0150]

Yes. Because I could never be happy knowing that the people I love are suffering. I am not selfish, I cannot think of myself and go after happiness when they are suffering.

Why? Because you love them with all of your heart correct? Now imagine that consumes you to the very limit of your being. If you are wanting to "burn" for a love that encompasses just your heart what would you be willing to endure for a love that encompasses your Heart, Mind, Spirit, and strength?

If you can remember this is the point i was trying to make with my heaven/hell question.

I think the concept of punishment still very much exists.

You misunderstand I did not say the concept does not exist. I simple said all who think this way do not understand what Heaven or Hell really is.

There is the idea of hell - which although many do not believe God sends people to hell. The idea of 'if you are good you go to heaven, which is beautiful and peaceful, but if you do bad (not follow Jesus) you go to hell, which is evil and horrendous' is an almost perfect example of reward and punishment, and many people see it this way.

That's just it. No one is "good enough" for Heaven because we all deserve Hell. You are looking from the top down meaning you think there are some who out right deserve to be with God and because others do not God is evil for making the distinction. When in fact None deserve Heaven. The only people who goto Heaven are those who want to be with God. Those who do not Goto Heaven are those who do not want to be with God. The decision is not God's it's yours. He simply enforces what it is you decide in this life. If you want to label something evil, label the one who is keeping you from wanting to goto Heaven.

You could also argue that telling people they must change themselves - they have to make themselves straight, have a baby they may not have wanted, etc etc - is a form of punishment.

No one is arguing that here.

Because for someone who is not attracted to a woman and is being told that they are wrong and sinful and to be accepted they have to change can be seen as punishment for their 'sin' - because as far as they can see, they are gay with every being of their body.

As I have said over and over Heaven and Hell are not about Good and bad, because in truth we are all "bad." Heaven and Hell is about Choice and Where you spent this life telling God where you want to be for eternity.

Those who seek to be in the company of God seek redemption for their sin. Those who wish to be separated from God for eternity seek out their own righteousness.

But, I digress. What I mean to say, is that to many people heaven and hell is a reward and punishment issue.

If they want to grow past a carrot and stick mentality then they have to be willing to pick up their bibles and Seek out the Holy Spirit. Otherwise the will be stuck in judgment of God because a family member is in rebellion against God.

God has set a standard, and just because you have deemed this standard unfair because you will not seek out a understanding greater, or more intune with what the bible say, does not mean this standard will change. For those who love God will seek God, and the understanding and wisdom He has promised to all who seek Him out. With this understanding and wisdom that is provided by the Holy Spirit will come direction. But again this is reserved for those who seek God, not those who stand in rebellion or judgment of God. If you humble yourself before Him He will lift you up.

If a parent says do this and you can come with me to a new house, and everything will be good and wonderful, but if you don't do it then I will leave you here all alone to cope for yourself - how is that loving?

How is it loving if a wife demands that Her husband provide her with a new car every two years or a New house every 10? How can someone with hold their love (Because that is what you are currently doing) or hold the love they are supposed to have for someone ransom for favor or stuff?

If you want to look at God as a parent then look at him this way. What if a Child did not want to goto an amusement park for whatever reason would a loving parent drag him kicking and screaming just because "other" children should want to go? What if the child did not want to goto a gathering because he didnot like all of the other people there. Does a loving parent drag the child to the gathering? Wouldn't that be a form of punishment or abuse?

That is how I see God right now. It seems he loves us if we do what he asks, but if we don't he has no qualms about leaving us to go to hell.

Go loves all of us, but can only be with those who does what He asks. He will respect the decision of those who do not want to be with Him, as well as all of those who do want to be with Him

It isn't about him providing us with anything, it is about the idea of his love not making sense.

What you have described as love is not It is codependency. you want God to love you even if you do not Love Him, you want God to accept you and your family even if they do not accept him.. Perhaps if you want God's love to make sense you should (respectfully) do some research on what He defines as love. (1cor 13)4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
8 Love never fails.
This is what love looks like in us.

As far as I know my school friends are not suffering in hell, whilst I am in bliss. There is a big big difference here.

Try and stay focused. We were not talking about your school friends being in Hell. You came here looking for understanding. This kindergarten friend example is a tool to help you get perspective if you want it. If you do not it is not a point to be argued..

What I was saying is just because you may have had a really good friend in kindergarten, does not mean that the rest of your life will be ruined if that person does not grow up to be successful. whether you like it or not or will admit it or not, as we mature our understandings and relationships mature. you do not have the same connection with your friend in kindergarten even if you are still in contact with them. After we are "transformed" at the resurrection we will change and grow spiritually again. You will not have the same connection to your family as you do now. Or at least you capacity for connection will grow, and what you experience now will not be the same.

 

[aiki]

This is what confuses me. People claim that god is loving, but He still allows people to go to hell - which sounds like the worst possible thing to experience. It is like bribery and threatening people to do what he says.

At tremendous cost to Himself, God has made a way for us to escape Hell. God was under no obligation to rescue us from our own wickedness but He did nonetheless. Securing our salvation required humiliation, and terrible pain, and finally death to accomplish, but God's love for us was great enough to sustain this cost.

God's holiness and justice demand a payment for sin which we see reflected in the judgment of Hell. But He has not left us without another option. Instead of getting what we deserve, God has graciously offered us the gift of salvation in and through His Son, Jesus Christ. In this we see reflected God's love, mercy and grace.

Hell is the consequence of people freely choosing to live in rebellion to their Maker. God could force us to live exactly as He wants but we would be merely puppets then, wouldn't we? And why should people be allowed to defy with impunity the One Who Made Them? How can God be perfectly holy and just and not punish sin?

Is is the main thing that causes doubt and makes me question why I would want to worship someone like that - regardless of whether he created me. I can't stop him doing to me what he wants, but I don't know if I could worship him for what is is doing.

You are responsible for your eternal destiny, not God. As C.S. Lewis remarked, "The door to Hell is locked from the inside." There is no other reason ultimately for why people end up in Hell besides their unwillingness to humble themselves under God's mighty hand. God has made a way for all people to escape His judgment, but relatively few will take it because it requires the acknowledgement of, and submission to, God's divine soveriegnty.

Selah.

 

[solarwave]

You seem to understand where I am coming from.

This is what confuses me. People claim that god is loving, but He still allows people to go to hell - which sounds like the worst possible thing to experience. It is like bribery and threatening people to do what he says.

Is is the main thing that causes doubt and makes me question why I would want to worship someone like that - regardless of whether he created me. I can't stop him doing to me what he wants, but I don't know if I could worship him for what is is doing.

If there is a hell I don't believe God sends people there. I assume you have heard the saying that the doors of hell are locked from the inside? This idea that God sends people to tortuous pain for eternity simply for disagreeing with a statement I think is very simple theology and its not supprising you don't like it is. So I'm not saying this to attack you, but it is a strawman and not what some Christians believe.

If people are in hell they chose to be there and if they can change their minds then God will have them because God is love. It isn't bribery from God, but a warning of the natural consequences. If a father warns his daughter not to waste her money and life doing pointless and immoral things because if she does she will ultimately be disappointed, is that bribery or is it the father trying to help the daughter? In the end the daughter has free will though and does what she wants and the father will love her the whole time and wishes her return.

So I would say, think of hell as the depraved state of mind and all that comes with it because of living a life of sin reguardless of beliefs.

(I also replied to your original post on page 2).

 

[solarwave]

All you have demonstrated to me is that your bible contradicts itself.

If the Bible has errors does this Christianity is wrong?

 

[elman]

I made a similar thread a while ago, but that went on a bit of a tangent and it would be hard to bring it in a slightly different direction, so thought I would start another.

Christianity has never really come easy to me. I have some Christian background, but not a religious family.

The main reason I do not have a good faith is that I struggle to see the good in God. I have asked this many times before, and often people become quite angry that I even question it - so please don't post any angry responses as I am only trying to understand.

The way I see it, which I know is different to how the majority of Christians see it, is that God is an angry God who will punish anyone who doesn't follow his word. It is like we have the choice to either follow Him or not, but even if we are good in all we do - He will still punish us for not following His word. And, I can't understand where the love comes from here? Because surely if God loved us He wouldn't have a Hell, and he wouldn't allow pain and suffering of innocent people?

I still have a lot of reservations about Christianity, which would probably not fit into this thread, but a part of me is still being called to look into Jesus, so it's difficult for me right now.

It feels as though God doesn't love us because if He did he wouldn't allow/ throw people into Hell. It really confuses me and sometimes make me angry that there is a God who says He loves us, but still lets all this bad stuff happen, and sometimes I feel like I am made to worship Him out of fear more than anything else, which doesn't sound right to me.

Is there any advice that people who have felt like this can offer? Or can help explain how God is loving, despite all the bad etc?

Again, I ask people not to post any angry comments. I am not trying to go against your beliefs but only try and make sense of God and my own faith in Him.

I believe God is good and can be trusted to be good all the time. This does not mean God cannot allow innocent people to suffer. This world is a world in which everyone suffers and dies. We have been gifted with a limited life span. If God gave us the ability to show love and compassion for others, it must follow He also gave us the ability to hurt others and not show love and compassion. Love has to be a choice and voluntary or it is not love. I don't believe God will ever punish anyone after this life is over. He will gift some of us with more life if we show love for each other, but the ones who do not receive the gift of eternal life will not be tortured forever. They will simply die and not receive the gift of further life.

 

[elman]

I, for example, have not killed or harmed anyone, so a judge condemning me to death sounds very unfair doesn't it?

Yet, despite people not killing or harming others, God is technically condeming people to death.







.

If God gives us limited life and then does not give us an additional extention of life, that is not condeming us to death. Everybody dies physically, the just and the unjust. That is not a condemnation from God.

 

[.Iona.]

If you are wanting to "burn" for a love that encompasses just your heart what would you be willing to endure for a love that encompasses your Heart, Mind, Spirit, and strength?

I understand what you are saying, but I still wouldn't be able to knowingly leave my family behind.

That's just it. No one is "good enough" for Heaven because we all deserve Hell.

This is another area that I have great problems with.

The idea that people deserve to be tortured (be it literally in fire, or something similar) for eternity is crazy when all they have done is not believed in God, or had sex before marriage etc. I am sure you have heard the saying before about the crime not fitting the punishment - I have never understood how people can say we are deserving of hell.

The original sin concept is also another area. I should start a different thread about those though.

How is it loving if a wife demands that Her husband provide her with a new car every two years or a New house every 10?

I don't see how this fits into what I was saying?

How can someone with hold their love (Because that is what you are currently doing) or hold the love they are supposed to have for someone ransom for favor or stuff?

I am holding back my love because I cannot give my love to someone that I see as punishing us for no good reason. I do not see lack of faith being a good enough reason to go to hell.

Does a loving parent drag the child to the gathering? Wouldn't that be a form of punishment or abuse?

The problem I have with your metaphors are that they are not anywhere near equal to the idea of hell.

Not believing in the goodness of God is very different to trying to stop him dragging us to heaven.

I see what you are trying to say, but still they do not work when you are comparing a frightened child at a theme park and a person going to hell.

Go loves all of us, but can only be with those who does what He asks. He will respect the decision of those who do not want to be with Him, as well as all of those who do want to be with Him

You mean he will only allow those who do what he asks to be with him? Because he is god, he could easily change things if he wanted to.

To say he respects the decision of people not to be with him makes me laugh in shock to be honest. That's like a parent saying to their child do not run into the road because it is bad, but I respect that you have a choice to do it.

What you have described as love is not It is codependency. you want God to love you even if you do not Love Him, you want God to accept you and your family even if they do not accept him..

It's not like that at all. I can't love him right now because I cannot see that he is loving. Everything that I know about him does not feel loving. So regardless of whether or not he loves me, I can't love him because of the whole hell issue.

If god doesn't like the way I live my life, then fine - i won't go to heaven. But, there is nothing in my life that is deserving of being punished in hell fire for the rest of forever.

I am not saying that he should just allow everyone to be evil and kill and still be given everything in heaven, but no one id deserving of eternity in hell.

Try and stay focused. We were not talking about your school friends being in Hell. You came here looking for understanding. This kindergarten friend example is a tool to help you get perspective if you want it. If you do not it is not a point to be argued..

Again, the examples do not work for me when looking at hell.

 

[.Iona.]

God was under no obligation to rescue us from our own wickedness

Please explain to me what you believe to be our wickedness.

Because my definition would be someone who brutally kills someone for no reason. Not someone who doesn't follow the ten commandments. The choice of word you use shocks me.

As I said in my post above - this is an area, like the idea of hell, that I do think I will ever agree with.

 

[.Iona.]

If people are in hell they chose to be there and if they can change their minds then God will have them because God is love. It isn't bribery from God, but a warning of the natural consequences.

Why is there hell? Why does a loving God allow such horror on the people he loves? Why is it that people seem to think that other humans are deserving of such horror?

God could easily get rid of hell and still only allow Christians into Heaven. Why keep the evil concept of eternal torment?

I believe God is good and can be trusted to be good all the time. This does not mean God cannot allow innocent people to suffer.

Allowing the innocent to suffer is good?!

So I guess wars and all the problems in Libya are good then, because innocent people are suffering there too.

If God gives us limited life and then does not give us an additional extention of life, that is not condeming us to death.

I see what you are saying, but the idea that it's either heavenly bliss, or evil hell fire doesn't sit well with me.

 

[Walter Kovacs]

The idea that people deserve to be tortured (be it literally in fire, or something similar) for eternity is crazy when all they have done is not believed in God, or had sex before marriage etc. I am sure you have heard the saying before about the crime not fitting the punishment - I have never understood how people can say we are deserving of hell.

The original sin concept is also another area. I should start a different thread about those though.

Did you read what I posted a couple pages back? You might get somehting out of that.

Here's my breakdown:

1. Man created with a right relationship with God.
2. Sin enters through man (I don't affirm original guilt.)
3. Sin is a condition; think of it like a sickness.
4. This condition prevents us, as long as we have it, from being in communion, but not union, with God's presence, love, and glory. To enter into such presence not being healed of such a condition would be hell.
5. Salvation (which in Greek has to do with healing) "cures" us and allows us to experience the presence of God in communion, not forcible union. Remember, Jesus was a doctor for the sick, by His own admission.
6. By this line of reasoning, the Dante-eque view of hell, where naughty people who broke the 10 commandments go, (also postulated by Anselm) is more or less rendered obsolete.

Sadly, from a Biblical standpoint, there is very little about hell. We just don't know what or how it's going to be. Most of what the West knows about hell comes from Milton and Dante. There's just not enough data to really go on, so I generally try to avoid making absolute statements on hell. We just don't know enough.

 

[aiki]

Please explain to me what you believe to be our wickedness.

Its not so much what I believe to be our wickedness as what the Bible tells me our wickedness is. Here's what God says we are guilty of:

Romans 1:21-25
21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,
23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man--and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things...

25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

People have taken a very small view of God. In the minds of many He is little more than a super-powered human, like one of the Greek or Norse gods. But the picture Creation itself reveals to us of God and what God has revealed of Himself in the Bible describe a Being who is far beyond what we can fully grasp. We make the mistake of extrapolating from ourselves outward to God, thinking that He is more less the same as we are. But nothing could be more untrue. Certainly, we are made in God's image insofar as we are self-aware, creative, can love and discern between right and wrong. But the comparison between us and God is extremely limited. In many more ways, God is far, far beyond us. We can perceive only a small part of the whole of who the Creator really is.

As a result of not thinking carefully about who God truly is, many people fail to accord Him the tremendous respect and honor He is due. By His very divine nature, God is worthy of all the praise and glory we can offer Him. Unfortunately, many have reduced God to a caricature of who He is and worship the caricature carved in stone, or believed to be present in a tree, or crystal, or animal rather than Him. Many, too, have replaced God altogether with worship of wealth, or prestige, sex or sports.

Only when God is properly magnified in our thinking can we begin to see how terribly wicked our diminishment of Him is. He is too great, too powerful, too awesome, too holy and pure, too just and loving, too gracious and merciful to be regarded with anything less than our deepest thankfulness, love and respect. Yet, most of the human population on this planet ignores Him completely! Our lack of regard for God is wicked indeed!

Because my definition would be someone who brutally kills someone for no reason. Not someone who doesn't follow the ten commandments. The choice of word you use shocks me.

Well, this may be a bit of a shock to you, but God doesn't really care what your definition of wicked is; its His definition that matters!

Are you aware that one of the Ten Commandments forbids brutally killing someone for no reason?

I'm sorry my word-choice shocks you. That wasn't my intent. Sometimes, though, the truth is shocking. What surprises me about your response is how much of what I said you appear to have ignored. Exactly what do you think God's reason was for taking the penalty for our sin upon Himself? The Bible tells us it was love that motivated Him to do so. Do you disagree?

As I said in my post above - this is an area, like the idea of hell, that I do think I will ever agree with.

If you've made up your mind to resist any explanation, then why bother asking us for one?

Selah.

 

[.Iona.]

Well, this may be a bit of a shock to you, but God doesn't really care what your definition of wicked is; its His definition that matters!

Did I say God cared?!

That is the point of this thread - I cannot see things the way Christians do.

And, like I have said - I do not understand how Christians see things.

Which means I do not understand all His definitions and so I will ask and try to understand.

But, that also means that if I can't understand or agree with it, nothing will make me. But, that will not stop me asking. If you don't like me questioning things, then ignore the thread and post elsewhere.

 

[bling]

Why is there hell? Why does a loving God allow such horror on the people he loves? Why is it that people seem to think that other humans are deserving of such horror?

God could easily get rid of hell and still only allow Christians into Heaven. Why keep the evil concept of eternal torment?







Allowing the innocent to suffer is good?!


So I guess wars and all the problems in Libya are good then, because innocent people are suffering there too.




I see what you are saying, but the idea that it's either heavenly bliss, or evil hell fire doesn't sit well with me.

If you do not understand the objectives you will not understand the reason for anything.

God’s Love compelled God to make beings that could Love like He Loves for the sake of those that will Love like He Loves (the reason is totally unselfish (Loving) on God’s part).

This Godly type Love is the most powerful force in all universes (the greatest “Gift” we could imagine ever getting), since it compels even God to do all He does.

This “Love” is not instinctive (robotic) or something God can force us to take (some kind of shoot gun wedding with God holding the shoot gun) or something man can develop (way beyond man) and is defined by everything Jesus said and did (you can also use 1 Cor. 13 and 1 John 4).

God is not trying to get humans to “do” something, but is trying to give something to humans (again, true Love gives and is not try to get). (The problem) Humans have to correctly accept the gift as Charity, but no human readily accepts charity from a giver that paid a huge price for the gift.

The human mission statement is thus: “Love God and others with all our heart, soul, mind and energy.” With the objective of obtaining such a Love from God; Who is doing all He can to help us accept this Love.

The “everything” God is willing to do and allow to happen in order to help those that are willing to accept His help includes: Christ going to the cross, satan roaming the earth, tragedies of all kind, hell, heaven, and man to sin.

The easiest and only way to initially accept God’s free gift of Love (charity) is by accepting God’s forgiveness, (so we have to sin, which all mature adults do).

Unfortunately those that accept God’s Love seem to need Hell to: full grasp the huge debt sin creates so they can realize how much they have been forgiven of “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…” and hell shows us we have been forgiven much. God does not want to “punish” the wicked, put God also has to show sin (at the expense of children that have continuously refuse God’s free gift) to be hugely significant, so those that accept will realize they have been forgiven much.

The Bible does not say sinners are eternal beings or that a human sinner burns in hell forever, but the flames of “hell” cannot be put out (thus eternal in that respect) and will eventually destroy everything in them. (the Bible does talk about degrees of punishment).

You have to remember hell is for those that do not want Godly type Love (unconditional and undeserved forgiveness), but these are people wanting a selfish type of love, which is not found in heaven. The people burned up and destroyed in hell, have shown they would not be happy in the Love Feast of Heaven.

 

[elman]

=Rasa;56918169]




Allowing the innocent to suffer is good?!

Allowing us to be able to love others is good. If we are going to be able to chose to help others, we must be able to chose to not help them--resulting in their suffering.

I see what you are saying, but the idea that it's either heavenly bliss, or evil hell fire doesn't sit well with me.

I don't believe in evil hell fire.

 

[solarwave]

Why is there hell? Why does a loving God allow such horror on the people he loves? Why is it that people seem to think that other humans are deserving of such horror?

What horror? My post said nothing about hell fire. It is totally possible (as elman has said) that there is no hell other than non-existance.

If there is a hell I don't believe it to be eternal pain because that is horrific. I agree that that idea of hell doesn't sit well with a loving God. I am saying that it is possible to have a more subtle and intellectual idea of hell. For example it could be the mental pain inflicted on yourself by yourself due to the destructive state of mind one has. Like if you do something wrong you feel bad, though I am not saying the pain in hell is necessarily because of regret, but a different emotion which mentally hurts.

If people turn towards goodness even in hell I believe God will let them into heaven with open arms.

God could easily get rid of hell and still only allow Christians into Heaven. Why keep the evil concept of eternal torment?

By the way people other than Christians may go to heaven in my opinion. If there is a hell I think it is the natural and only place for a 'soul' to go if it rejects heaven. Think of hell as a state of mind rather than a place which can be destroyed.

 

[.Iona.]

What horror? My post said nothing about hell fire. It is totally possible (as elman has said) that there is no hell other than non-existance.

If there is a hell I don't believe it to be eternal pain because that is horrific.

So what is your take on the verses in the Bible that talk of eternal fires of hell?

And, if some take the Bible literally, some don't, and some take only parts of it literally, how do you which what verses actually mean what they say?