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truth of the "rapture"

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ViaCrucis

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Hentenza said:
What are you trying to show with the dialogue with Trypho? Nothing in the text that you cited addresses chiliasm? Justin Martyr was a chiliast.
Click to expand...

Justin recognizes that his view isn't the lone view. Demonstrating that, at the very least, Chiliasm wasn't the view of "all" Christians of the first couple hundred years, as your post implied.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Originally Posted by Hentenza
What are you trying to show with the dialogue with Trypho? Nothing in the text that you cited addresses chiliasm? Justin Martyr was a chiliast.
Click to expand...
ViaCrucis said:
Justin recognizes that his view isn't the lone view. Demonstrating that, at the very least, Chiliasm wasn't the view of "all" Christians of the first couple hundred years, as your post implied.

-CryptoLutheran
Click to expand...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiliasm

Premillennialism

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(Redirected from Chiliasm)
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This article is about Premillennialism in Christian eschatology. For other uses, see Millenarianism.


Premillennialism in Christian eschatology is the belief that Jesus Christ will literally and physically be on the earth for his millennial reign at his second coming. The doctrine is called premillennialism because it holds that Jesus' physical return to earth will occur prior to the inauguration of the millennium.
It is distinct from the other forms of Christian eschatology such as postmillennialism or amillennialism, which view the millennial rule as occurring either before the second coming, or as being figurative and non-temporal..

Historically Christian premillennialism has also been referred as "chiliasm" or "millenarianism". The theological term "premillennialism" did not come into general use until the mid-19th century, the modern period in which premillennialism was revived.
Coining the word was "almost entirely the work of British and American Protestants and was prompted by their belief that the French and American Revolutions (the French, especially) realized prophecies made in the books of Daniel and Revelation."[1]

The proponents of Amillennialism interpret the Millennium as being a symbolic period of time, consistent with the highly symbolic nature of the apocalyptic genre of the book of Revelation, sometimes indicating that the thousand years represent God's rule over his creation or the Church.
Premillennialism is often used to refer specifically to those who adhere to the beliefs in an earthly millennial reign of Christ as well as a rapture of the faithful coming before (dispensational) or after (historic) the tribulation preceding the millennium.
Post-millennialism, for example, agrees with premillennialism about the future earthly reign of Christ, but disagrees on the concept of a rapture and tribulation before the Millennium begins. Postmillennialists hold to the view that the second coming will happen after the Millennium.








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thereselittleflower

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Hentenza said:
What are you trying to show with the dialogue with Trypho? Nothing in the text that you cited addresses chiliasm? Justin Martyr was a chiliast.
Click to expand...

That text IS about chiliasm. That you even question this leads me to wonder if you have ever even read his Dialogue with Trypho.

"CHAPTER LXXX -- THE OPINION OF JUSTIN WITH REGARD TO THE REIGN OF A THOUSAND YEARS. SEVERAL CATHOLICS REJECT IT"

That's what Justin Martyr is talking about Hentenza. . The text is about chiliasm, his beliefs, and stating it is not the view of many others - that thre are many who are of pure and pious faith, and are true Christians, who think otherwise.

Why are you ignoring the plain words of Justin Martyr which clearly demonstrate the Church was not chiliast, just that some were and it was not in any way, shape or form, agreed with or accepted in the Church as a whole? And this in the second century?
 
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Stryder06

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Given that the Catholic church has no offical stance on eschatology, how can it declare anyone's theories to be incorrect?
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Originally Posted by MoreCoffee
J. N. Darby invented a lot of things that are commonly believed among evangelicals in the USA today.
Click to expand...
Stryder06 said:
Given that the Catholic church has no offical stance on eschatology, how can it declare anyone's theories to be incorrect?
Click to expand...
Ahhh, but they do!
I believe they are of the "Amill" view if I am not mistaken [which would be fairly close to my view].

[I myself hold to the "Preterist" view ]

Yes a "pre-trib rapture", it is seen as a recent invention of history.

here is a great article on our position

The Rapture | Catholic Answers
Click to expand...

http://www.christianforums.com/t7348339/
Catholic view of the end-times

http://www.christianforums.com/t1769080-5/#post16393158
How do Catholics feel about the rapture?







.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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MoreCoffee said:
Like in the Star Gate television series?
Click to expand...

Well it's just like how its taught in evangelical circles .. except aliens come to snatch people away from oppressive human governments instead of Jesus .


Old testament instances that happened only to two people . don't indicate what happens in the new testament .
 
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Gnarwhal

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MoreCoffee said:
Like in the Star Gate television series?
Click to expand...

I just blacked out... The Stargate franchise is my all-time favorite!

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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thereselittleflower

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Stryder06 said:
Given that the Catholic church has no offical stance on eschatology, how can it declare anyone's theories to be incorrect?
Click to expand...

Because wrong teaching is wrong teaching. The Church does not take a definitive stand only on some aspects of eschatology. She has on others. One of those stands was to cearly spell out that millinarianism in all its forms is false teaching.
 
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thereselittleflower

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DeaconDean said:
You know sister, I haven't seen you around in a while, and I'm kinda glad your back. And I was wondering how long it was gonna take before you singled me out for one of my posts.

Anyway, good to see you back.
Click to expand...

Well thank you for the welcome back, but I didn't single you out by simply responding to you

Good to see you too by the way




Part of the point I have made before is that Darby took the word "rapture" (which is from the Latin) and then developed a whole teaching around it that was an innovation, a novelty, and way off the mark from any doctrine of the Church, including East, West and Protestant. It is like any other false teaching that separates itself from established Christian doctrine in the deposit of faith from the Apostles.

But because he hijacked that word "rapture" now when people talk about it, most of the time they are talking about his teaching, and dispenationalist ideas , rather than the simple word.

So .. I was addressing the fact that while they were translated, and this corresponds to Paul saying how we who are alive at the resurrection will be also translated, caught up, changed, this does not at all correspond to Darby's teaching or dispensationalist ideas of the rapture, it's timing, it's meaning, etc, etc, etc.


As a Baptist, justification by Faith, a tenant of Baptist views, is a realitively new "revelation", and according to some its almost heresy.
Click to expand...

If it excludes other elements for our faith, then yes, it is in error.

Yet it was almost unheard of until the 1500's. And now, its widely accepted.
Click to expand...

Well two things. First, just because something is widely accepted does not make it correct.

Second, what is widely accepted? Baptists and those who beileve as they do about justification by faith, are a minority in christianity . So I would not agree the way baptists look at justification by faith is widely accepted among christiains.

So just because it was revealed specifically at a certain period of time, don't mean a thing.
Click to expand...

And here is where we very much disagree. Everything needed for our faith was given to us through the apostles. The scriptures even attest to that.

Changes to those truths are changes, not something newly revealed by God. God does not contradict Himself. Deeper undertanding of a truth is one thing. Denying some truths and changing others is quite another.

And the fact is, Enoch and Elijah were "raptured", "being caught up" by God.

God Bless

Till all are one.
Click to expand...

And if we call what happened to them being "raptured" this does nothing to make the dispensationalist view of the rapture and all it implies valid. So I am not sure what the point of bringing up Enoch and Elijah is?
 
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thereselittleflower

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This is apocalyptic language, and as such cannot be taken strictly literally. When people fail to understand and recognize apocalyptic language, taking it literally instead, all sorts of strange things happen.

Now, look at what Jesus actually says . . the WORLD will see Him when He comes to gather His elect.

What does dispensationalism teach? It teaches the world will NOT see Him, that it will be a secret coming, and the elect will just vanish leaving the world in confusion and chaos.

Jeus didn't teach what Dispensationalists teach. . .

Jesus is talking about the second coming there, the end. Not some secret thing. According to Jesus' words, the sun is going to stop shining, the moon stops giving her light, and stars fall - and EVERYONE sees Him. . .

So .. does dispensationalism teach that all this happens, the sun is going to stop shining, the moon stops giving her light, and stars fall - and EVERYONE sees Him, before the rapture?


No .. they teach the rapture happens first, though if we take Jesus' sequence of events the passage above, the "rapture" happens last.

So who is right? Jesus? or the Darby and the dispensationalists?


False teaching is false teaching.
 
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thereselittleflower

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DeaconDean said:
I'll not get into this with you.

Like I said, I was merely pointing out that a "rapture", "being caught up" has already happened as recored in the scriptures.

God Bless

Till all are one.
Click to expand...

The question I have though, which I am scratching my head over, is what was the purpose of pointing that out in the context of this discussion?
 
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MoreCoffee

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This whole rapture theology leads to mental depression I reckon. The folks that believe it think that the future will be much worse than the present so they have no incentive to work for a better future. They think God has it all planned out, first the Jews return to Palestine, then build a temple, then some Antichrist guy arises and then the USA and Russia and China and the Arabs have some huge war and everybody who doesn't get raptured suffers radiation burns and plagues and starvation and all sorts of horrible things and then the end comes.

It's such a depressing world view that I am surprised that those who hold it are not tempted to suicide ... no wait, some were weren't they? Jones town, the Branch Davidians, and probably some others I haven't heard about yet.

I reckon those Seventh Day Adventists and Jehovah's witnesses, and Dispensationalists, and all those folk who get all worked up about the signs of the times and end times and stuff are ripe for doom & gloom preaching.

I wonder if people get converted by being frightened into religion from all this rapture nonsense!
 
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Gregory Thompson

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I thought that was the whole hook to the sales pitch gospel?
 
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MoreCoffee

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Michael Collum said:
I thought that was the whole hook to the sales pitch gospel?
Click to expand...

Shocking isn't it - to substitute some theory about end-times for the preaching of the gospel in the hope that one can recruit members for one's religious group because they are too frightened to stay outside - it's a real shame.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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MoreCoffee said:
Shocking isn't it - to substitute some theory about end-times for the preaching of the gospel in the hope that one can recruit members for one's religious group because they are too frightened to stay outside - it's a real shame.
Click to expand...

Yah . since they can never be complete in the Love God is .. while they hold onto that fear. truly truly the love of money is a root of all evil.
 
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