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Once again, this is known as Diabolical Plagiarism, or Diabolical Mimicry.
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Truth and Science
- Thread starter AV1611VET
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EnemyPartyII
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I reckon encyclopedia Britanica probably meets those standards better.
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you DO know that these religion predate the NT, and large parts of the OT.
the idea of gods having mortal sons is old, VERY old.
ever read the Illias? that was written way before the NT. and the story goes back a lot further then when it was written.
the meal with bread and wine (flesh and blood) is also not original to the christian faith. ever heard of the mithras cult?
ofc I won't forget to bring up the cult of mary, which has really strong influences from the Isis and other pagan "mother godesses" cults.
not to forget the gilgamesh flood epic, from which motifs can be found in the noachian flood.
and the golden rule is one of those things everyone already knew, but jut wrote down and attributed to god because it lend him credibility.
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Do you know what the "diabolical" in Diabolical Mimicry is a reference to?
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diablos, aka SATAN
do you know that that doesn't convince me the slightest?
because you're making reality fit with the bible, not the bible with reality.
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marktheblake
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There are a few possibilities that you could determine from that; that you are right, or all other religions are originated from one, or just random luck they have similar themes.
So in other words, that does not validate your argument because your evidence can work both ways.
I have heard of Mithras cult often, and it is not a good example for your cause. The only known information about this religion/God is post Christ and there are no scriptures. Attempting to link Christ as derivative of Mithras is contrived at best.
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There are many themes that recur in religions, the return of the son of god being one of many. Looks like something out of the human payche rather than evidence of common origin or luck.
If Christianity were unique that might impress me some.
Another theme seems to be the amazing (random) luck that people have always had at being born into the one true religion.
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1) all other religion have most certainly NOT originated form one, as we see many types of religions sprouting up on different completely separates geographical locations.
2) similar themes in a area where a lot of trade is taking place mean nothing? not a chance.
you forget how much the bible has been censored and "altered" to "sweettalk" roman citizens into converting.
makign pilatus appear nicer then he is, clear separation from the rebelious jews (jews were a unwanted minority to the romans) references to hated roman emperors (Nero wasn't just hated by christians)
intergration of religious poractices from pagan religions to easy transition when converting (the cult of mary is a nice example of that)
you seem to think that related and derived are somehow indistinguishable, when they most certainly are, in part due to chronological order and geographical distribution.
3) i did NOT say christ was derived from mithras, you kinda missed me there.
i said the last supper theme shares strong connections to the (elitist and militaristics (lots of soldier where followers)) mithras cult. they predated the story of the last supper, and they ALSO had ceremonial meals with bread and wine ,in which the wine was suppose to symbolize blood.(i need to reverify this i think, i got this from my latin history book, but i can't be 100% certain of this)
keep in mind that the mithras cult was a very secretive cult, possible there are more themes that have been copied, but have been lots to time.
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marktheblake
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From my perspective (not yours ) the return of the son of god 'myth/legend' originated 6000 years ago, unless of course, Usher cannot count. It is therefore no surprise to see this legend propogate into other cultures.
Unfortunately for us they all contradict. Either all but one are wrong, or all are wrong.
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A
Alunyel
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Perfect example; Quetzalcoatl. The Aztecs believed he came down as a mortal man, taught them about everything they knew, as a civilization, then left and promised to return to restore the Aztecs to some kind of former glory. Doesn't this sound familiar? Yet, Christianity had yet to be imagined, and was seperated from America by the Atlantic.
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actually, you cannot be sure of that claim "it originated 6000 years ago"
since we don't have any written record predating writing.
all we got , we can distill form murals.
but not only that, the OT as only written as late as 1200 BC, meaning there was PLENTY of time to pickup other religious aspects.
the oldest stories of god sons, we have recorded would probably be sumarian epics, or egyptian mythology.
btw, usher counter the biblical genealogy, you know...the one that said people could live for 900 years?
not only that, he took the literally. although who could blame him, noone had found the sumarian texts describing kings that lived for 43 000 years. ancesterwhorship can be quite intersting to study...
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I guess ultimately this comes down to what is the source of (T)ruth.
Is Truth straight from God, or does such truth as we know come from observation and hard work?
I go with the "all are wrong" rather than the "all but one".
Probably all religions have practitioners who claim that they get messages straight from the spirit world.
From my perspective, if all physical evidence of the earth's age did not so clearly point to an age much greater than 6000 years, the story might be believable.
From my perspective, the only REASONABLE conclusion is that the theory that the earth is 6000 yrs old is untenable.
Willing suspension of disbelief is fine at a movie, not for major life decisions and conclusions about the basic nature of reality.
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marktheblake
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Yes there are many different religions world wide. They however have common themes, thatis the argument you are putting forward. So If there was not one original religion, how?
Your opinion does not support your argument. For a start, doesn't the 'Mitochondrial Eve' have wide support, that human origins can be traced back to just one location on earth?
Therefore our Mitochondrial Eve's religion, developed and changed into its unique characteristics as humanity spread out, no different than facial characteristics, right??
You have no proof of that. That is pure speculation.
I guess i must have.
Mithras cult came after Jesus Christ, and after the writings about Jesus Christ.
I said from my perspective. When you find 6000 yo scriptures, let me know.
You can believe that all those other writings override the OT if you like, but gee, how many of them is there really. Some are often referred to in plural when in fact there is only one.
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Baggins
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All religions are undoubtedly wrong
The Mithraic cult is talked about as being an existing religion around the same time as the Gospels were being disseminated so there is very little doubt that the religion must have been around at the time of Jesus ( if such a character existed ) if not before.
It seems patently obvuious that Paul grafted a load of mystical baggage - along with many of his own prejudices - onto the Jesus cult and also divested it of most of its Jewish nature in order to convert gentiles with existing religions.
Their is obviously a large amount of friction between Paul - who never met Jesus - and Jesus' family and disciples in Jerusalem, it says so in Acts.
This lead to a final rupture and the amalgam, by Paul, of the original Jesus Cult and a grab bag of other religious motifs that we know as Christianity.
The Mithraic cult is talked about as being an existing religion around the same time as the Gospels were being disseminated so there is very little doubt that the religion must have been around at the time of Jesus ( if such a character existed ) if not before.
It seems patently obvuious that Paul grafted a load of mystical baggage - along with many of his own prejudices - onto the Jesus cult and also divested it of most of its Jewish nature in order to convert gentiles with existing religions.
Their is obviously a large amount of friction between Paul - who never met Jesus - and Jesus' family and disciples in Jerusalem, it says so in Acts.
This lead to a final rupture and the amalgam, by Paul, of the original Jesus Cult and a grab bag of other religious motifs that we know as Christianity.
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If not one common religion, how...?
Here is one explanation:
Archetypes are, according to Swiss psychiatrist Carl Jung, innate universal psychic dispositions that form the substrate from which the basic themes of human life emerge. Being universal and innate, their influence can be detected in the form of myths, symbols, rituals and instincts of human beings. Archetypes are components of the collective unconscious and serve to organize, direct and inform human thought and behaviour.
According to Jung, innate archetypes heavily influence the human life cycle, propelling a sequence which he called the stages of life. Each stage is mediated through a new set of archetypal imperatives which seek fulfillment in action. These may include being parented, initiation, courtship, marriage and preparation for death.[1]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jungian_archetypes#cite_note-0
As to your theory of one common religion... maybe, but, borrowing a phrase:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jungian_archetypes#cite_note-0
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jungian_archetypes#cite_note-0
You have no proof of that. That is pure speculation.
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"Yes there are many different religions world wide. They however have common themes, thatis the argument you are putting forward. So If there was not one original religion, how?"
HAHAHA, no dice.
you forget that general themes can pop up simultaneously, like a food story. many cultures live near bodies of water that flood.
conclusion? all stories are derived from one epic story? no.
however when you come across a stroy from people who live in the desert who tell a flood story, and these people have had dealing with another culture who DO live near a river that flooded. how likely is it to assume, they might not have "borrowed" something?
and to bounce the bal back, for your inevitable conclusion, monotheism should be a recurrign theme, which it's not.
"Your opinion does not support your argument. For a start, doesn't the 'Mitochondrial Eve' have wide support, that human origins can be traced back to just one location on earth?"
yup, africa. so what? where they monotheists? didn't their decendant all create radically different civilizations after they where separated from one another by geographical barriers....you know, when they coem up with farming and they started to make cities...
"Therefore our Mitochondrial Eve's religion, developed and changed into its unique characteristics as humanity spread out, no different than facial characteristics, right??"
while religion does have a slight genetic base, your assumption is incorrect. we can say very little about these proto religions, and it's even less likely to asusme we have any accurate stories left from them or that they were monotheistic.
it's much more reasonable to think that these peoples all came with a general superstitious template, and then formed their own complex religions, instead of startign with one simple religion, and then diversifying.
EG: you don't need to be told by your parents to think of the sun as soem supernatural deity. what you think that deity exactly is, well that's different fro each person (culture)
cultural aspect can change and dissapear withign a few generation, basic structural genetic code, cannot.
"Mithras cult came after Jesus Christ, and after the writings about Jesus Christ"
noo, documentation and widespread acceptence came after early christianity.
the cult has much deeper roots, just wiki it. can't provide links yet XD.
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to further supplement hespera
/wiki/Prehistoric_religion
not only human archtypes but also natural phenomena and animals.
/wiki/Prehistoric_religion
not only human archtypes but also natural phenomena and animals.
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marktheblake
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I have evidence so it is not pure speculation.
Its just that when you view the same evidence, you do not interpret it as I do.
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Naraoia
Apprentice Biologist
Whee, Thaumaturgy is back!
I see little chance of that.
Is there any way of knowing that can lead to the whole truth? I doubt it.
(Hmm, am I veering into philosophy again? Stop me before I fry my brain
)Finding things out is difficult, AV. Nature is not 411. You can't expect to push a few buttons, ask a question and get an answer in no time. Even answering simple questions, using established protocols and ready-made materials, can take a lot of time and effort. Never mind developing new methods and finding out something truly new.
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I have evidence so it is not pure speculation.
Its just that when you view the same evidence, you do not interpret it as I do.
haha. tho we note that when science builds as thorough a case as there is for evolution and deep age for the earth, people will for ideological reasons say its not proof, its not enough evidence, its just connecting isolated data points with an imaginary theory etc etc.
Any chnace that you are not applying very rigorous standards to your evidence and how you interpret it?
Or that some interpretations arent very good ones?
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