Trump the Toddler

[Oldmantook]

Only in Trump's world of "alternate facts" would the sending home of 40% (5000) of the FBI's 13000 special agents, intelligence agents and other staff would be interpreted as a move that makes Americans safer!

Then I guess you never made short term sacrifices in your life since you seem to be unfamiliar with this principle but I won't speculate.

 

[The Barbarian]

Trump's shutdown has affected TRA, Coast Guard, and other essential border security functions. He says he's doing it, because if he doesn't do it, the democrats won't do what he wants.

So much for the "foremost responsibility."

Problem is, a wall won't work. And even if it did work, most illegal aliens don't get here by sneaking across rural border zones. They either come in legally and just overstay, or sneak in illegally at border checkpoints.

In this case, the wall is like putting bars over your chimney, and leaving the front door unlocked.

Let's see...do you lock you car doors?

Yep. But I don't lock my tree. For the same reason it would be foolish to build the wall. Yes, people sometimes steal trees, but it's far more likely that someone would want to break into my car, so I focus on that.

Do you lock your house?

Yep. But I don't lock my chimney.

Do you take whatever security measures possible to ensure your safety?

No. For example, I don't have a concrete wall around my yard, or even "steel slats." Why not? Because I have limited funds and I focus on things that are effective and within my budget. I use lighting and locks at entry points actually used by burglars.

People have fences and gates around their dwellings. Same thing with the wall. Porous borders are an open invitation to illegals.

As you learned, most people who are here illegally either entered legally at points of entry, or managed to slip by airports, border crossings, etc. And the wall is no more than a speed bump for someone who wants to cross. Ladders, reciprocating saws, etc are easy to come by.

 

[The Barbarian]

Let's see... Trump says if he lets agencies protecting us open again, we won't do what he wants.

What he wants is a wall that Americans don't want, and won't work. So he's going to endanger American citizens as leverage to get what he wants.

This is how crime families always work.

 

[Sparagmos]

Let me try this again. The source you provided is a blog. The blog is an analytical opinion on the "small error" which was already addressed in the report.

"While it is possible that some of the convicts who are listed as US-born and as either undocumented or documented immigrants renounced their citizenship or never had their citizenship claimed for them, it is also possible that there are data errors. Even if all these cases are in error, the number of cases is still small and they don’t appreciably alter the results." ~ John Lott

This is where your source (which is a blog/opinion piece) undermined the actual results because of bias. The actual results of the data appear to convey that the type of person who goes through the process to legally immigrate in the United States appears to be very law-abiding versus even the U.S.-born population. The reverse is true for undocumented immigrants — they are committing crimes and more serious crimes — in the state of Arizona.

If you are still not getting it, re-read post #25 again and again until you get it.


No, it is an ad hominem argument you are appealing to because you are defaming John Lott's reputation as an academic based on his conclusions gathered from the data on a completely irrelevant issue — guns; And of all things using another blog/opinion piece to refute the results of the report which is a non-sequitur. If you want to challenge the legitimacy of the report, give me two or more studies that put into question John Lotts assessment of the data covered from 1985 to 2017.


This is called 'shifting the goalposts'. The issue is the data compiled from the Arizona Department of Corrections. Keyword: ARIZONA. And no one was talking about immigration but illegal migrants committing more crimes than natural born US citizens in Arizona. Try to differintiate between illegal and legal. I know you guys on the left often generalise the two as the same.

This will be my last response.

I studied debate and logic, so I’m very familiar with the definition of ad hominem. It is not a fallacious argument to criticize the person when the criticism is relevant to the argument. I am criticizing your source, just as you have criticized mine. And in my case, i’ve Provided documentation that John Lott has been dishonest in his studies and in his representation of his own credentials.

A source is the person or entity that provided information, not the medium that source used to publish their information. A blog is a medium just as a printed newspaper is. The Cato institute is the source, not their blog. Calling it an opinion piece is incorrect, as the report is made up primarily of verifiable facts, and opinion pieces are not.

I did not know the topic at hand was immigrant crime strictly in Arizona, I thought that study was being put forth in an attempt to prove a wider claim about immigrant crime in our country. So I wasn’t attempting to move any goalposts.

My impression is that you have not sought out information on this issue, but that you found one source that supported your beliefs and stopped there. That is not truth seeking or research. A while back I wanted to know the truth about criminality amongst immigrants (because my mother who lives in Arizona was fearful of Mexican immigrants) and I did quite a bit of reading on the subject. My conclusions aren’t drawn from one article or one study.

 

[jgarden]

Then I guess you never made short term sacrifices in your life since you seem to be unfamiliar with this principle but I won't speculate.

I do remember "The Donald" stating repeatedly that Mexico will pay for "THE WALL" - I don't recall any mention that it would require the shutdown of the federal government and/or additional sacrifices" short term, long term or otherwise!

I believe that America is being subjected to a classic case of "bait and switch" -
- create an irrational fear of the illegal immigrant, irrespective of the facts
- propose "THE WALL as a simplistic solution and that that Mexico will finance it - something that only the most gullible voter would accept at face value
- once voted into the White House, continue moving the "goalposts" and castigating the opposition as being unpatriotic for not supporting you agenda

 

[Oldmantook]

I do remember "The Donald" stating repeatedly that Mexico will pay for "THE WALL" - I don't recall any mention that it would require the shutdown of the federal government and/or additional sacrifices" short term, long term or otherwise!

I believe that America is being subjected to a classic case of "bait and switch" -
- create an irrational fear of the illegal immigrant, irrespective of the facts
- propose "THE WALL as a simplistic solution and that that Mexico will finance it - something that only the most gullible voter would accept at face value
- once voted into the White House, continue moving the "goalposts" and castigating the opposition as being unpatriotic for not supporting you agenda

Yeah irrational fear. It's irrational for those families who have had loved ones killed by illegals either through drunk driving or actually murders. Those are the tragic facts. Keep pretending as you excel in it!

 

[EpiscipalMe]

Yeah irrational fear. It's irrational for those families who have had loved ones killed by illegals either through drunk driving or actually murders. Those are the tragic facts. Keep pretending as you excel in it!

It is not irrational for the affected families to feel that way.

It is irrational for everyone else to ignore the data and fear illegal immigrants as a result.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

The first of foremost responsibility of gov't. is to protect the safety and well-being of its citizenry. Therefore the wall is necessary to prevent unauthorized entry by anyone who is not a citizen or who has not been properly vetted. People put up fences and lock their doors for a reason. Common sense

Walls and fences work at deterring but not preventing. They are not much of a deterrent. They can easily be overcome. To prevent unauthorized entry the only real way is to be vigilant and call police. Dogs are better for preventing unauthorized entry but nobody is calling for more dogs at the border.

The reason is that this isn't about an actual wall. This is about Trump's will over everyone else's. The people who support Trump believe it's also about their will over the wills of all others.

There's no logic in the wall itself, it's pretty well proven to be a waste of resources in terms of doing what people would want it to do. It's completely, 100% about playing politics and imposing Trump's will on everyone else.

 

[Oldmantook]

It is not irrational for the affected families to feel that way.

It is irrational for everyone else to ignore the data and fear illegal immigrants as a result.

I suppose then you consider yourself and your family totally immune to the possibility that you will not get killed/injured by a drunk illegal alien driver, nor murdered by an illegal alien. That must be some crystal ball you possess!
Why don't you do your own research instead of relying upon your unfounded presumptions? Reveal what "data" you have to support your view! I'll provide you some data. Who knows better what goes on at the border than border patrol. Do you blindly accept what you see/read on the news? Think again.
This Is What The MSM Does Not Want You To Know: CNN Busted By Local News Station For Hiding Facts, Before Accidentally Telling The Truth About Border Wall - "It Works"

 

[Oldmantook]

Walls and fences work at deterring but not preventing. They are not much of a deterrent. They can easily be overcome. To prevent unauthorized entry the only real way is to be vigilant and call police. Dogs are better for preventing unauthorized entry but nobody is calling for more dogs at the border.

The reason is that this isn't about an actual wall. This is about Trump's will over everyone else's. The people who support Trump believe it's also about their will over the wills of all others.

There's no logic in the wall itself, it's pretty well proven to be a waste of resources in terms of doing what people would want it to do. It's completely, 100% about playing politics and imposing Trump's will on everyone else.

Yeah and you know better than the border patrol, right? See the above link in post #49 to better inform yourself.

 

[EpiscipalMe]

I suppose then you consider yourself and your family totally immune to the possibility that you will not get killed/injured by a drunk illegal alien driver, nor murdered by an illegal alien. That must be some crystal ball you possess!
Why don't you do your own research instead of relying upon your unfounded presumptions? Reveal what "data" you have to support your view! I'll provide you some data. Who knows better what goes on at the border than border patrol. Do you blindly accept what you see/read on the news? Think again.
This Is What The MSM Does Not Want You To Know: CNN Busted By Local News Station For Hiding Facts, Before Accidentally Telling The Truth About Border Wall - "It Works"

Not at all. Certainly I or a family member could be a victim of an illegal immigrant. However, if we are going to be victims, the perpetrator is more likely to be a US citizen.
Illegal Immigration Does Not Increase Violent Crime, 4 Studies Show

Also, I do not think a wall is the most effective way to stop illegal immigration, particularly when not part of a comprehensive plan.

 

[Oldmantook]

I do remember "The Donald" stating repeatedly that Mexico will pay for "THE WALL" - I don't recall any mention that it would require the shutdown of the federal government and/or additional sacrifices" short term, long term or otherwise!

I believe that America is being subjected to a classic case of "bait and switch" -
- create an irrational fear of the illegal immigrant, irrespective of the facts
- propose "THE WALL as a simplistic solution and that that Mexico will finance it - something that only the most gullible voter would accept at face value
- once voted into the White House, continue moving the "goalposts" and castigating the opposition as being unpatriotic for not supporting you agenda

Just what "facts" do you refer to? The fact that illegal aliens who should not been here in the first place, some even deported and reentered illegally multiple time because of a porous border have murdered and killed US citizens by illegal acts/drunk driving, etc. How's that for your "irrational fear?"
I guess you fancy yourself as more knowledgeable than border patrol who actually deal with the problem on a daily basis. Instead of clinging to your ivory tower opinion which is of course your prerogative, why don't you come on down and read their perspective and how that media would love to influence your perceptions regarding this issue. If you are so inclined, read my link on my post #49.

 

[Oldmantook]

Not at all. Certainly I or a family member could be a victim of an illegal immigrant. However, if we are going to be victims, the perpetrator is more likely to be a US citizen.
Illegal Immigration Does Not Increase Violent Crime, 4 Studies Show
Also, I do not think a wall is the most effective way to stop illegal immigration, particularly when not part of a comprehensive plan.

So you just basically ignored the judgment of the border patrol who state that a wall is effective right??
Sorry, no thanks as I prefer to defer to the judgement of those who actually see and know what's going on at the border.
The NPR story on the study you refer to is ridiculous. Apparently you are not the least bit familiar with studies/statistics. Are you familiar with the term "causal significance?" It basically means that the occurrence of something has to occur a statistical number of times in order to establish a causal relationship. What these studies fail to acknowledge is that the number of violent acts committed by illegals is too low compared to the rest of the general population thus resulting in a statistically insignificant result. However, we DO KNOW that illegal aliens have killed/murdered US citizens. That fact in itself has for all practical purposes increased violent crimes. Common sense dictates that if the illegal was not here in the first place, the crime would have not been committed. I suggest you brush up on your understanding of statistical analysis.

 

[EpiscipalMe]

So you just basically ignored the judgment of the border patrol who state that a wall is effective right??
Sorry, no thanks as I prefer to defer to the judgement of those who actually see and know what's going on at the border.
The NPR story on the study you refer to is ridiculous. Apparently you are not the least bit familiar with studies/statistics. Are you familiar with the term "causal significance?" It basically means that the occurrence of something has to occur a statistical number of times in order to establish a causal relationship. What these studies fail to acknowledge is that the number of violent acts committed by illegals is too low compared to the rest of the general population thus resulting in a statistically insignificant result. However, we DO KNOW that illegal aliens have killed/murdered US citizens. That fact in itself has for all practical purposes increased violent crimes. Common sense dictates that if the illegal was not here in the first place, the crime would have not been committed. I suggest you brush up on your understanding of statistical analysis.

If you think illegals commit more violent crimes than citizens, feel free to post your data. But, most data I am aware of shows what I posted above. Of course illegals have killed people, but so have citizens.

As for how best to keep the illegal immigrants from coming in, keep a few things in mind. First, more than half of illegal immigrants coming in to the country now overstay visas, they don’t cross illegally.

There are plenty of people who agree with me that a wall won’t work or isn’t the best way:
Why the Wall Won't Work
The Wall: The real costs of a barrier between the United States and Mexico

As for border agents:
What Border Agents Say They Want (It’s Not a Wall)

Again, I do not oppose barriers in selected places. I do oppose a generic “wall” that is not part of a larger plan.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

Yeah and you know better than the border patrol, right? See the above link in post #49 to better inform yourself.

What's in post 49 that could inform me? I saw nothing there that contains any informative facts. Unless you mean it could inform me that there are paranoid "media" outlets out there that make things up, which I already knew.

As for the walls, all it takes is some common sense to understand how walls and fences work. As I said, they are deterrents. They won't "keep out" anyone. They will only deter and get in the way but they will not keep anyone out. They can be gone over, under, and through. What part of that do you disagree with and why?

It's amazing to me how people choose to ignore the facts about walls. I can't tell if it's out of ignorance or willfully turning a blind eye to the facts.

 

[Oldmantook]

If you think illegals commit more violent crimes than citizens, feel free to post your data. But, most data I am aware of shows what I posted above. Of course illegals have killed people, but so have citizens.

As for how best to keep the illegal immigrants from coming in, keep a few things in mind. First, more than half of illegal immigrants coming in to the country now overstay visas, they don’t cross illegally.

There are plenty of people who agree with me that a wall won’t work or isn’t the best way:
Why the Wall Won't Work
The Wall: The real costs of a barrier between the United States and Mexico

As for border agents:
What Border Agents Say They Want (It’s Not a Wall)

Again, I do not oppose barriers in selected places. I do oppose a generic “wall” that is not part of a larger plan.

A wall is a part of a larger plan first and foremost because 1) it is a physical barrier which deters that also just as importantly 2) allows for surveillance to occur as the wall is slatted which allows border agents to see through the wall as illegals approach from a distance. Common sense.

 

[Oldmantook]

What's in post 49 that could inform me? I saw nothing there that contains any informative facts. Unless you mean it could inform me that there are paranoid "media" outlets out there that make things up, which I already knew.

As for the walls, all it takes is some common sense to understand how walls and fences work. As I said, they are deterrents. They won't "keep out" anyone. They will only deter and get in the way but they will not keep anyone out. They can be gone over, under, and through. What part of that do you disagree with and why?

It's amazing to me how people choose to ignore the facts about walls. I can't tell if it's out of ignorance or willfully turning a blind eye to the facts.

What "facts" pray tell? Those in your imagination??

 

[EpiscipalMe]

A wall is a part of a larger plan first and foremost because 1) it is a physical barrier which deters that also just as importantly 2) allows for surveillance to occur as the wall is slatted which allows border agents to see through the wall as illegals approach from a distance. Common sense.

Ok - then Trump should propose a comprehensive plan. So far, all he has shown interest in is the wall.

 

[Oldmantook]

Ok - then Trump should propose a comprehensive plan. So far, all he has shown interest in is the wall.

I surmise because the wall is foundational to a comprehensive plan. Without the wall, no comprehensive plan is even possible. That would be like constructing a home without a foundation. Not possible yet Congress says no to the wall. Go figure.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

What "facts" pray tell? Those in your imagination??

The fact that it is a stupid idea considering the technology we have today. As a Christian, however, I don't see that a priority of the country should be harming people. Perhaps you and others do, though, but that isn't a Christian point of view for sure.