Trump the Toddler

Oldmantook

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Perhaps because in the past the wall was associated with an actual comprehensive plan.
Perhaps; perhaps not. Seems to me that a wall is a fundamental part of such a plan. So why not just fund it? Unless of course they do not really want a wall. Order out of chaos is the mantra of the new world order which includes not only Dems but Repubs as well.
 
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Hank77

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'includes a Wall or Steele Barrier' Was he asking if they would approve all the money he wants for a barrier the full length of the border? Pelosi said, 'No', to that question.

Or was he asking for some money to be for 'barriers' where they are needed, along with other types of security enhancement, and Pelosi said, 'No' to no money at all for any barrier ever?

I don't think it's clear or even if they took the time to talk it out...because someone says no to your question you just give up and walk away, some car salesman he'd make. No wonder he's had so many businesses fail, negotiator he is not.
I'm saying all this rather tongue in cheek because neither you or I know for sure the full context of what was said in that meeting.
But I will seriously say that if they were both wanting to negotiate, they would have.

They still havn't used the last funding of over a billion specifically for the barrier/wall.
 
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Oldmantook

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'includes a Wall or Steele Barrier' Was he asking if they would approve all the money he wants for a barrier the full length of the border? Pelosi said, 'No', to that question.

Or was he asking for some money to be for 'barriers' where they are needed, along with other types of security enhancement, and Pelosi said, 'No' to no money at all for any barrier ever?

I don't think it's clear or even if they took the time to talk it out...because someone says no to your question you just give up and walk away, some car salesman he'd make. No wonder he's had so many businesses fail, negotiator he is not.
I'm saying all this rather tongue in cheek because neither you or I know for sure the full context of what was said in that meeting.
But I will seriously say that if they were both wanting to negotiate, they would have.

They still havn't used the last funding of over a billion specifically for the barrier/wall.
Can't say I disagree with you.
 
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Abraxos

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I’ve read otherwise. What is your source?
The source is a report from the Crime Prevention Research Center, used a previously untapped set of data from Arizona that detailed criminal convictions and found that illegal immigrants between 15 and 35 are less than 3 percent of the state’s population, but nearly 8 percent of its prison population. And the crimes they were convicted of were, on the whole, more serious, said John R. Lott Jr., the report’s author and president of the research center.

Link to the report: Undocumented Immigrants, U.S. Citizens, and Convicted Criminals in Arizona by John R. Lott :: SSRN

I assume you read a blog?

Do you have a source? This is all I found....Lott research which wasn't correct and there wasn't any way to determine natural born either....

According to Lott, the data allowed him to identify “whether they [the prisoners] are illegal or legal residents.” This is where Lott made his small error: The dataset does not allow him or anybody else to identify illegal immigrants.
....
There is no reliable way to identify native-born Americans in the ADC datasets.
The Fatal Flaw in John R. Lott Jr.’s Study on Illegal Immigrant Crime in Arizona
Your link is a biased opinion piece which exaggerates the "small error" which was already noted in the report. "While it is possible that some of the convicts who are listed as US-born and as either undocumented or documented immigrants renounced their citizenship or never had their citizenship claimed for them, it is also possible that there are data errors. Even if all these cases are in error, the number of cases is still small and they don’t appreciably alter the results."

Arizona Department of Corrections knows each prisoner who entered the prison system, their criminal history, and whether he is a documented or undocumented immigrant. Undocumented immigrants have the highest rates, whereas documented immigrants actually have lower rates than do U.S. citizens.

Link to the report:
Undocumented Immigrants, U.S. Citizens, and Convicted Criminals in Arizona by John R. Lott :: SSRN
 
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Hank77

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The source is a report from the Crime Prevention Research Center, used a previously untapped set of data from Arizona that detailed criminal convictions and found that illegal immigrants between 15 and 35 are less than 3 percent of the state’s population, but nearly 8 percent of its prison population. And the crimes they were convicted of were, on the whole, more serious, said John R. Lott Jr., the report’s author and president of the research center.

Link to the report: Undocumented Immigrants, U.S. Citizens, and Convicted Criminals in Arizona by John R. Lott :: SSRN

I assume you read a blog?


Your link is a biased opinion piece which exaggerates the "small error" which was already noted in the report. "While it is possible that some of the convicts who are listed as US-born and as either undocumented or documented immigrants renounced their citizenship or never had their citizenship claimed for them, it is also possible that there are data errors. Even if all these cases are in error, the number of cases is still small and they don’t appreciably alter the results."

Arizona Department of Corrections knows each prisoner who entered the prison system, their criminal history, and whether he is a documented or undocumented immigrant. Undocumented immigrants have the highest rates, whereas documented immigrants actually have lower rates than do U.S. citizens.

Link to the report:
Undocumented Immigrants, U.S. Citizens, and Convicted Criminals in Arizona by John R. Lott :: SSRN
Your source and my opposing source......
Either way, one state does not set national statics...as you pointed out.
 
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The Barbarian

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The first of foremost responsibility of gov't. is to protect the safety and well-being of its citizenry.

Trump's shutdown has affected TRA, Coast Guard, and other essential border security functions. He says he's doing it, because if he doesn't do it, the democrats won't do what he wants.

So much for the "foremost responsibility."

Therefore the wall is necessary to prevent unauthorized entry by anyone who is not a citizen or who has not been properly vetted.

Problem is, it won't work. And even if it did work, most illegal aliens don't get here by sneaking across rural border zones. They either come in legally and just overstay, or sneak in illegally at border checkpoints.

People put up fences and lock their doors for a reason.

In this case, the wall is like putting bars over your chimney, and leaving the front door unlocked.

Common sense

That's not a phrase that comes to mind when one says "Trump." This is just one of many reasons why.
 
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Sparagmos

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The source is a report from the Crime Prevention Research Center, used a previously untapped set of data from Arizona that detailed criminal convictions and found that illegal immigrants between 15 and 35 are less than 3 percent of the state’s population, but nearly 8 percent of its prison population. And the crimes they were convicted of were, on the whole, more serious, said John R. Lott Jr., the report’s author and president of the research center.

Link to the report: Undocumented Immigrants, U.S. Citizens, and Convicted Criminals in Arizona by John R. Lott :: SSRN

I assume you read a blog?


Your link is a biased opinion piece which exaggerates the "small error" which was already noted in the report. "While it is possible that some of the convicts who are listed as US-born and as either undocumented or documented immigrants renounced their citizenship or never had their citizenship claimed for them, it is also possible that there are data errors. Even if all these cases are in error, the number of cases is still small and they don’t appreciably alter the results."

Arizona Department of Corrections knows each prisoner who entered the prison system, their criminal history, and whether he is a documented or undocumented immigrant. Undocumented immigrants have the highest rates, whereas documented immigrants actually have lower rates than do U.S. citizens.

Link to the report:
Undocumented Immigrants, U.S. Citizens, and Convicted Criminals in Arizona by John R. Lott :: SSRN
John Lott is an academic fraud, and was busted lying about having his work published in a peer review journal, among other things.
The Fatal Flaw in John R. Lott Jr.’s Study on Illegal Immigrant Crime in Arizona

You’re calling the above report by the CATO INSTITUTE an opinion piece? I read it, and it presents a ton of data to back up it’s claims. I also read this piece

The GOP’s favorite gun ‘academic’ is a fraud – ThinkProgress

which goes into great detail about John Lott’s “studies” on gun control. The academic community has rejected this guy and his conclusions contradict other studies from far more reputable sources.

I don’t generally read blogs. Why would you assume that?
 
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Abraxos

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John Lott is an academic fraud, and was busted lying about having his work published in a peer review journal, among other things.
The Fatal Flaw in John R. Lott Jr.’s Study on Illegal Immigrant Crime in Arizona

You’re calling the above report by the CATO INSTITUTE an opinion piece? I read it, and it presents a ton of data to back up it’s claims. I also read this piece

The GOP’s favorite gun ‘academic’ is a fraud – ThinkProgress

which goes into great detail about John Lott’s “studies” on gun control. The academic community has rejected this guy and his conclusions contradict other studies from far more reputable sources.

I don’t generally read blogs. Why would you assume that?
That's a blog that analysed the results from the report based solely on a "small error" which I already pointed out was addressed in the report. The author is biased because he self-described himself as a radical advocate for open borders to and from the United States. He's open to immigration but appears not to differentiate between legal immigration and illegal immigration, but generalises them both by choice.

Do you want to provide some examples of Mr John Lott being a liar and a fraud on the gun issue? Seems when you mean the "academic community" you mean the liberal echo chamber.
 
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Sparagmos

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That's a blog that analysed the results from the report based solely on a "small error" which I already pointed out was addressed in the report. The author is biased because he self-described himself as a radical advocate for open borders to and from the United States. He's open to immigration but appears not to differentiate between legal immigration and illegal immigration, but generalises them both by choice.

Do you want to provide some examples of Mr John Lott being a liar and a fraud on the gun issue? Seems when you mean the "academic community" you mean the liberal echo chamber.
The Cato Institute is a blog? Are you serious?

The second article I posted goes into John Lott’s dishonesty. Did you read it?
 
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Abraxos

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The Cato Institute is a blog? Are you serious?

The second article I posted goes into John Lott’s dishonesty. Did you read it?
It is a blog though. It also thanks Vox for supporting the blog if you actually read the opinion piece you claim to have read, and Vox is an ultra-liberal news feed. It's probably worse than CNN; another reason to call the blog opinion piece biased.

And no, I don't think I care to read a whole bunch of leftist nonsense unless you show me some good examples.
 
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Sparagmos

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It is a blog though. It also thanks Vox for supporting the blog if you actually read the opinion piece you claim to have read, and Vox is an ultra-liberal news feed. It's probably worse than CNN; another reason to call the blog opinion piece biased.

And no, I don't think I care to read a whole bunch of leftist nonsense unless you show me some good examples.
I’m sorry, but people interested in the truth have to be willing to read more than a paragraph. I already pointed out that Lott lied about being published in a peer-reviewed journal.

But more importantly, are you still Claiming the Cato Institute is a blog? And have you read their study on immigrant crime rates? Or did you just find that one study by Lott and stop there?
 
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Abraxos

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I’m sorry, but people interested in the truth have to be willing to read more than a paragraph. I already pointed out that Lott lied about being published in a peer-reviewed journal.
All you have demonstrated is that you have an opinion on the man rather than the subject which you seem to refuse to address. It's called an ad hominem argument.

But more importantly, are you still Claiming the Cato Institute is a blog?
Is there an echo in here? YES! It even says it is a BLOG. Crikey, it's like pulling teeth.

And have you read their study on immigrant crime rates? Or did you just find that one study by Lott and stop there?
Sigh, the report is directly associated with the results obtained from the Arizona Department of Corrections data from the '80s to 2017. If there is another study that is contrary to these results I'm all ears. So far all I've seen is "Lotts a fraud" and "It's not a blog!"
 
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Sparagmos

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All you have demonstrated is that you have an opinion on the man rather than the subject which you seem to refuse to address. It's called an ad hominem argument.


Is there an echo in here? YES! It even says it is a BLOG. Crikey, it's like pulling teeth.


Sigh, the report is directly associated with the results obtained from the Arizona Department of Corrections data from the '80s to 2017. If there is another study that is contrary to these results I'm all ears. So far all I've seen is "Lotts a fraud" and "It's not a blog!"
The Cato institute is an incredibly well known and respected (on the right) libertarian think tank that probably existed before blogs did. They have a blog on their website where they publish articles. I’m guessing you’d never heard of Cato before?

It’s not an ad hominem attack to say that a person’s research is faulty. And I didn’t post opinion, I posted facts which you have not refuted.

You’re being dishonest when you say I’ve only said “Lott’s a fraud” and “it’s not a blog.” I posted an article DETAILING the man’s fraud.

As for studies that explore crime rates among immigrants, ill post the two I’m familiar with and that you would also be familiar with if you had, in fact, reasearcged the topic:

Criminal Immigrants in Texas: Illegal Immigrant Conviction and Arrest Rates for Homicide, Sex Crimes, Larceny, and Other Crimes

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/1745-9125.12175
 
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ml5363

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'includes a Wall or Steele Barrier' Was he asking if they would approve all the money he wants for a barrier the full length of the border? Pelosi said, 'No', to that question.
It was said in a video today that work on the wall is currently going on and that he pays contractors after they finish a job...do when they finish this section they will be paid..then move to another section...
Or was he asking for some money to be for 'barriers' where they are needed, along with other types of security enhancement, and Pelosi said, 'No' to no money at all for any barrier ever?

I don't think it's clear or even if they took the time to talk it out...because someone says no to your question you just give up and walk away, some car salesman he'd make. No wonder he's had so many businesses fail, negotiator he is not.
I'm saying all this rather tongue in cheek because neither you or I know for sure the full context of what was said in that meeting.
But I will seriously say that if they were both wanting to negotiate, they would have.

They still havn't used the last funding of over a billion specifically for the barrier/wall.
 
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Abraxos

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The Cato institute is an incredibly well known and respected (on the right) libertarian think tank that probably existed before blogs did. They have a blog on their website where they publish articles. I’m guessing you’d never heard of Cato before?
Let me try this again. The source you provided is a blog. The blog is an analytical opinion on the "small error" which was already addressed in the report.

"While it is possible that some of the convicts who are listed as US-born and as either undocumented or documented immigrants renounced their citizenship or never had their citizenship claimed for them, it is also possible that there are data errors. Even if all these cases are in error, the number of cases is still small and they don’t appreciably alter the results." ~ John Lott

This is where your source (which is a blog/opinion piece) undermined the actual results because of bias. The actual results of the data appear to convey that the type of person who goes through the process to legally immigrate in the United States appears to be very law-abiding versus even the U.S.-born population. The reverse is true for undocumented immigrants — they are committing crimes and more serious crimes — in the state of Arizona.

If you are still not getting it, re-read post #25 again and again until you get it.

It’s not an ad hominem attack to say that a person’s research is faulty. And I didn’t post opinion, I posted facts which you have not refuted.

You’re being dishonest when you say I’ve only said “Lott’s a fraud” and “it’s not a blog.” I posted an article DETAILING the man’s fraud.
No, it is an ad hominem argument you are appealing to because you are defaming John Lott's reputation as an academic based on his conclusions gathered from the data on a completely irrelevant issue — guns; And of all things using another blog/opinion piece to refute the results of the report which is a non-sequitur. If you want to challenge the legitimacy of the report, give me two or more studies that put into question John Lotts assessment of the data covered from 1985 to 2017.

As for studies that explore crime rates among immigrants, ill post the two I’m familiar with and that you would also be familiar with if you had, in fact, reasearcged the topic:

Criminal Immigrants in Texas: Illegal Immigrant Conviction and Arrest Rates for Homicide, Sex Crimes, Larceny, and Other Crimes

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/1745-9125.12175
This is called 'shifting the goalposts'. The issue is the data compiled from the Arizona Department of Corrections. Keyword: ARIZONA. And no one was talking about immigration but illegal migrants committing more crimes than natural born US citizens in Arizona. Try to differintiate between illegal and legal. I know you guys on the left often generalise the two as the same.
 
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jgarden

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The first of foremost responsibility of gov't. is to protect the safety and well-being of its citizenry. Therefore the wall is necessary to prevent unauthorized entry by anyone who is not a citizen or who has not been properly vetted. People put up fences and lock their doors for a reason. Common sense
The FBI Agents Association sent a petition to the White House and congressional leaders encouraging them to fund the FBI immediately. Friday will be the first day that the nearly 13,000 special agents will miss their paychecks.

“This is not about politics for special agents. For special agents, financial security is national security,” Tom O’Connor, the association’s president, told reporters in a conference call. Nearly 5,000 special agents, intelligence analysts and other staff are currently furloughed.

Trump tours border after repeating threat to call national emergency
Perhaps "Oldmantook" would care to enlighten the rest of us as to how the "well-being and safety of the citizenry" and "common sense" is being served given that the White House has been informed by the FBI Agents Association that approximately 40% (5000) of the nation's 13000 FBI special agents, intelligence agents and other staff have currently "furloughed" and sent home!
 
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Oldmantook

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Trump's shutdown has affected TRA, Coast Guard, and other essential border security functions. He says he's doing it, because if he doesn't do it, the democrats won't do what he wants.

So much for the "foremost responsibility."



Problem is, it won't work. And even if it did work, most illegal aliens don't get here by sneaking across rural border zones. They either come in legally and just overstay, or sneak in illegally at border checkpoints.



In this case, the wall is like putting bars over your chimney, and leaving the front door unlocked.



That's not a phrase that comes to mind when one says "Trump." This is just one of many reasons why.
Let's see...do you lock you car doors? Do you lock your house? Do you take whatever security measures possible to ensure your safety? People have fences and gates around their dwellings. Same thing with the wall. Porous borders are an open invitation to illegals.
 
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Oldmantook

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Perhaps "Oldmantook" would care to enlighten the rest of us as to how the "well-being and safety of the citizenry" and "common sense" is being served given that the White House has been informed by the FBI Agents Association that approximately 40% (5000) of the nation's 13000 FBI special agents, intelligence agents and other staff have currently "furloughed" and sent home!
Sure - no problem informing those such as yourself. Have you never contemplated short-term sacrifices necessary for long-term gain? I suppose you never made short-term sacrifices in your life in order to reach a more permanent long-term gain in your life? As a result of Congress' lack of cooperation, short term furloughs are necessary to produce the desired long-term result. Comprende?
 
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jgarden

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Sure - no problem informing those such as yourself. Have you never contemplated short-term sacrifices necessary for long-term gain? I suppose you never made short-term sacrifices in your life in order to reach a more permanent long-term gain in your life? As a result of Congress' lack of cooperation, short term furloughs are necessary to produce the desired long-term result. Comprende?

Only in Trump's world of "alternate facts" would the sending home of 40% (5000) of the FBI's 13000 special agents, intelligence agents and other staff would be interpreted as a move that makes Americans safer!

The Democrats platform during the 2018 Interims was opposed to "THE WALL" and they received the majority of the popular vote that also translated into a gain of 40 seats in the House - their mandate is not to pay for a wall this President so proudly boasted that Mexico would finance!
 
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