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Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by BCsenior, Jan 22, 2020.

  1. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    How many sins did it take for Adam to commit in order to cause the fall of mankind?
    How many sins did it take for Ananias and Sapphira to each commit before they were killed by God?

    It only took one.

    In fact....

    If a Christian can get to heaven with a “little” sin because their penalty has already been paid, then nothing in this world or the next could possibly “unpay” the largest quantity sin, or even the worst quality of evil committed in the one who is Eternally Secure. Either Eternal Security is a free license to sin, or it is no Eternal Security at all!

    What about the prodigal son? Was he saved while he was living a prodigal life?

    What about King David? Was he saved while he committed his sins of adultery and murder?

    See, the problem in thinking a believer can do a little bit of sin while under God’s grace is that it can lead them to justify doing sin all the time.

    Imagine telling a child that all their future sin was forgiven them, and you never got to see them again.

    It is possible that they could turn out to be the next George Sodini.
    George Sodini is an Eternal Security Proponent who killed a bunch of people and then took his own life and he wrote in his own suicide letter the following words:

    “Maybe soon, I will see God and Jesus. At least that is what I was told. Eternal life does NOT depend on works. If it did, we will all be in hell. Christ paid for EVERY sin, so how can I or you be judged BY GOD for a sin when the penalty was ALREADY paid. People judge but that does not matter. I was reading the Bible and The Integrity of God beginning yesterday, because soon I will see them.”

    Do you think believers do not lust after woman every day?
    Not to worry in your book, right?
    Jesus paid for their sins.
    No need to worry about sin.
    A believer cannot lose salvation.

    1 John 1:8 says if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. This is speaking in the present tense. It also doesn't sound like it is referring to occasional sin, either. It sounds like one is always in some kind of sin if you are to take the erroneous OSAS interpretation on 1 John 1:8.

    As for your mention of 1 John 3 that says, "practices sin":

    Well, this is 1 John 3:9, and not 1 John 3:4. Also, the King James (Which existed hundreds of years before Modern Translations showed up) says:
    "doth not commit sin;" (1 John 3:9). This is in reference to abiding in Jesus (1 John 3:6). When we abide in Jesus, we do not commit sin. Meaning: We cannot see WHILE we are in Jesus. How can we have an assurance that we know the Lord and abide in His love? We abide in Jesus when we obey Him or when we keep His commandments (See: 1 John 2:3, 1 John 15:10).

    Also, 1 John 3:15 says whoever hates his brother is like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

    You believe that you have to practice sin according to 1 John 3 in order to be condemned. So this means you believe that a person has to practice murder in order to be a murderer. Yet, the Bible teaches in Numbers 35:16-18 that it only takes one act of murder to be a murderer.

    As for your reference to Galatians 3:10 that says, "For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse":

    What Law is Paul talking about?

    "This is what I mean: The laws [given to Moses] 430 years after God had already put his promise [to Abraham] into effect didn't cancel the promise [to Abraham]. (Galatians 3:17) (God's Word Translation).

    Clearly the "Law" being referenced in Galatians 3:10 is the 613 laws of Moses and they are not the laws or commands given to us by Jesus and His followers.

    "For the law was given by Moses,
    but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ." (John 1:17).


    Source used:
    GEORGE SODINI
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2020
  2. Alain Valdivia

    Alain Valdivia “Domine miserere nobis. Parce nos in Christo.”

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    This saddens me. All of this babble and futile argumentations back and forth from both sides can at times just be plain exhausting. I feel like both people don’t understand both sides. I’ve been on both. I’ve been with the free gracers who believe that no matter what a person does after conversion, they will not fall from grace. I’ve also been with the legalistics (yes they are) who basically turn the grace of God not into lasciviousness, but to the other extreme, which is legality. Both sides are two dangers. One leads to presumption, the other leads to despair. Both presumption and despair are sins against hope and by this hope do we move towards God and towards good works. I like what St. Augustine says, “Do not despair, one of the thieves were saved. Do not presume, one of them was lost.” But I want to speak primarily towards the legalistic crowd. Yes I know that they would deny the term “legalist” to describe themselves, but if we’re honest with ourselves and our consciences we will see that they truly are. But to the legalist I want to speak to you specifically. There was a book written by the Puritan John Bunyan. This book was called “Pilgrim’s Progress.” It is basically a Christian allegory of a Christian in this life who is going through trials and tribulations on earth until they finally reach the Celestial City which is Heaven. Before he gets converted, he was told by one of the Characters, Evangelist, to follow the “straight path and turn neither to the left nor the right.” He however, passed by someone named Worldly Wiseman who told him to go to a certain city and climb the Mountain (Sinai) near the city where Mr. Legality was. I will put the quote right here:
    “So CHRISTIAN turned out of his way to go to Mr. LEGALITY'S house for help. But, behold, when he was got now hard by the hill, it seemed so high, and also the side of it that was next the wayside did hang so much over, that CHRISTIAN was afraid to venture farther, lest the hill should fall on his head; wherefore there he stood still, and knew not what to do. Also his burden now seemed heavier to him than while he was in his way. There came also flashes of fire out of the hill, that made CHRISTIAN afraid that he should be burned:

    "And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that was in the camp trembled. And Moses brought forth the people out of the camp to meet with God; and they stood at the nether part of the mount. And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the LORD descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly." Exodus 19:16-18

    here, therefore, he sweat and did quake for fear.

    "And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake" Hebrews 12:21

    And now he began to be sorry that he had taken Mr. WORLDLY WISEMAN'S counsel. And with that he saw EVANGELIST coming to meet him; at the sight also of whom he began to blush for shame. So EVANGELIST drew nearer and nearer; and coming up to him, he looked upon him with a severe and dreadful countenance, and thus began to reason with CHRISTIAN.”
    Right here we see Christian struggling to climb the hill which is a reference to Sinai and to the Law. In doing so, his burden gets bigger and he begins to quake and tremble. This is what happens to someone who is attempting to keep the Law in order to present themselves before God. This is what legalistic are in actuality doing. And it saddens me to see them say that the Law spoken of in Galatians 3:10 or in 2:16 or in Romans 3 are just ceremonial precepts and the Law of Moses purely speaking is just saddening. It shows poor exegesis of those text. I feel like the best way to describe these peoples is how Paul described the Jews who were seeking righteousness by the Law but never attained to it because they sought it by works and not by faith. “What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, as it is written, "Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense; and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame... For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.” (‭‭Romans‬ ‭9:30-33; 10:2-4‬). This is what Christ is to those legalists, a stumbling block and a rock of offense. An offense to a self help salvation and self righteousness. Now of course they will deny it. Not even the Pharisees would take that title and yet Christ was right to call them self righteous. But this is not my job, the gospel was said to be stumbling block to the Jews and foolishness to the gentiles. And if this glorious gospel be left hidden and rejected by these men, then the fault will be on them. Nonetheless, it still stands that, “if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost” (‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭4:3). And if, at the Judgement, I am condemned for preaching a false gospel then I will only plead the mercy of God because it was due to my ignorance. But no matter, I will preach nothing but Christ and Him crucified for sinners and I will glory in nothing save His cross.
     
  3. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    First, the Pilgrim's Progress book (Which was a bestseller and now an animated movie) is not the Bible. The book expresses the popular view of Christianity today. But Jesus said narrow is the way that leads unto life and FEW be there that find it.

    Second, Legalism (or Law Alone without God's grace) is wrong. Nobody can be saved by just keeping God's laws without God's grace. We are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace. If a believer stumbles into a sin on rare occasion, they do not do a good work to offset that sin. They go to God's grace. 1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

    Three, the point of Moses being afraid of God was not a negative thing that God was trying to teach Moses. The Bible actually says, the fear of the LORD is clean (Psalms 19:9). The Bible says, "...by the fear of the LORD men depart from evil." (Proverbs 16:6). Do you have a verse or passage that supports your view that the fear of the Lord Moses had was a negative thing?

    Four, I have also seen both sides in churches (i.e. Free Gracers and Law Alone Salvationists). Both are not pretty. This is why we need a healthy balance of both. We need both God's grace, and Sanctification. If there is no Sanctification, then we are turning God's grace into a license for immorality (Jude 1:4). Titus 2:11-12 says that God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world. In Ephesians 5:25-27, we learn that the reason why Christ died for us was so that He might cleanse and sanctify the church with the washing of the water of the Word (Scripture) so that He might present to Himself a church that is holy and blameless. Paul says, "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid." (Romans 6:1). Paul says, "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." (Galatians 5:19-21). Paul says, "They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

    Five, Jesus Himself taught that if we will enter into life, keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17-19). This is not a denial of God's grace but it is in harmony with it. Jesus agreed with the lawyer that we are to love God and love our neighbor as a part of inheriting eternal life (Luke 10:25-28). No doubt many today would say that Jesus was being a Legalistic Salvationist in these passages (if they did not know this was Jesus speaking these words). Paul says in 1 Timothy 6:3-4 that if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing. In fact, the Bible teaches that obedience to God's commands is tied to eternal life from Matthew to Revelation (See Matthew 19:17-19) (Luke 10:25-28) (1 John 1:7) (1 John 3:23) (Hebrews 5:9) (Revelation 22:14).

    Six, during Paul's day, there was a heresy at the time. I would call it "Circumcision Salvationism." It basically says that you have to first be circumcised in order to be saved. The problem is that if somebody makes circumcision the basis for their salvation, they are making the Law the foundation for their method of being saved. We see this heresy described to us at the Jerusalem Council (of which also included the following of the whole of the Law of Moses).

    1. Acts of the Apostles 15:1 says, “And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.”

    2. Acts of the Apostles 15:5 says, But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”

    3. Acts of the Apostles 15:24 says, “Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:”

    Paul also fought against the heresy of Circumcision Salvationism, as well.

    1. Galatians 2:3 says, “But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:”

    2. Galatians 5:2 says, “Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.”

    3. Galatians 5:6 says, “For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.”

    4. Galatians 6:15 (NLT) says, “It doesn't matter whether we have been circumcised or not. What counts is whether we have been transformed into a new creation.”

    5. 1 Corinthians 7:18-19 says, 18 For instance, a man who was circumcised before he became a believer should not try to reverse it. And the man who was uncircumcised when he became a believer should not be circumcised now. (NLT) 19 “Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.” (NASB)

    6. Romans 2:28-29 says, “For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.”

    7. Romans 3:1 says, “What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?”

    8. Romans 4:9-12 says, ”9 “Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.”

    9. Acts of the Apostles 21:21 says, “And they are informed of you, that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.”

    Seven, the Bible teaches that sin can separate us from God from Matthew to Revelation (Matthew 5:28-30) (Matthew 6:15) (Matthew 12:37) (Matthew 25:31-46) (Luke 9:62) (1 John 3:15) (Galatians 5:19-21) (Revelation 21:8).
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2020
  4. Alain Valdivia

    Alain Valdivia “Domine miserere nobis. Parce nos in Christo.”

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    I’ve got a simple question. In what do you rely on to at last be acquitted on Judgement Day and be allowed into glory? What is the object of your hope? Is it the Lord and Him alone or is it Him and something you do? By the way, I agree with you to some degree on several of those points. Yet you cannot just say things you don’t know about. Pilgrim’s Progress was written by a Puritan. I don’t know if you’re familiar with Puritanism but they were the exact opposite of sugarcoating. They preached hell and the necessity of obedience like no other. And yet they never denied that it’s God’s grace alone that saves. People who speak on about obeying all of the Law and never committing sin or things similar are ignorant on the conviction of sin. People who are like that don’t know the terrors of conscience that a person goes through. Have you ever been so convicted of your sins as to be wholly abased before God? Has it brought you to deep humility and self loathing? If not, you have not been convicted of sin.
     
  5. SeventyOne

    SeventyOne Well-Known Member

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    As any truly born again person could tell you, our nature actually changes and the desire to live in sin no longer exists. We don't need lists to follow of things to refrain from because those who are led by the Spirit no longer seek after gratification of the sinful flesh (Galatians 5:16, Ephesians 2:1-3).

    If you are His, does this not describe you? Is this not your reality? If not, why not?


    Well, the Greek was around a lot longer than the KJV, and it says what I said. So, you don't have an actual point here other than you prefer a misleading translation in English.

    There's really no point in quoting the rest, as it's just you pointing out that people sin, which we already know, and your claim they deserve hell (which they do). But we all deserve hell. The good news is that my price was paid by the only one who could pay it, and I have been justified before the Father based on the righteousness of the Son alone.
     
  6. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Jesus Christ. But Jesus not only saves both in Justification (By His grace), but He saves us in Sanctification, too. Well, in Sanctification, all three persons of the Trinity or the Godhead play a part in Sanctification (Living holy by the power of God working in us). We cannot boast in ourselves for any good we do in our lives. God gets all the glory.

    Then you believe in Universalism? No man needs to do anything and they will all be saved? If one's action in receiving the Lord as their Savior does not undo the grace of God, then why does one's action in being faithful to the Lord undo the grace of God? God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live goldy and righteously in this present world. If it's all God's grace, then we never need worry about sin and we can live as we please. Martin Luther said, "No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day..." It is strange how many in the Protestant camp uplift him as if he was some kind of hero or something. Yes, Catholicism is unbiblical, but Luther really did not truly understand salvation or God's grace.

    Puritans are Presbyterians. They were Calvinists to some degree. Calvinism is what caused the rise of Once Saved Always Saved (or the "Secure in One's Sin Salvation" type belief) as we know it today. There is a darkside to Puritans that people do not know about.

    "When the Puritans temporarily gained control in England, they... prescribed the death penalty for sex outside of marriage."

    "Although the Puritans had serious and even pathological hang-ups about pleasure, they were into violence. Calvin’s Geneva beheaded adulterers. Religious dissenters were hanged, decapitated, or burned at the stake. Christopher Hitchens describes Calvin as “a sadist and torturer and killer, who burned Servetus (one of the great thinkers and questioners of the day) while the man was still alive.”

    "In England, Oliver Cromwell’s Bible-carrying, hymn-singing Puritan army became notorious for slaughtering Anglicans at home and Catholics in Ireland."​

    Source:
    Dark Side of Puritanism.
    (Warning: The site is not a Christian website. They are actually anti-Christian. So I am obviously not in agreement with the author's beliefs or views. But the point here is that the author is merely reporting about the truth about the Puritans darker side of their history that nobody likes to look at).

    As for God's grace: I accepted Jesus Christ as my Savior and sought his forgiveness of my sins in 1992. Without God's grace I would not be forgiven or changed. There is no salvation without God's grace. But God's grace does not lead us to treat His grace as a license for immorality (Jude 1:4). God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (Titus 2:11-12). If your version of grace is contrary to Titus 2:11-12, then you are believing in a fictitious grace that simply does not exist.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2020
  7. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    But you don't believe a Christian loses their salvation via by sin, though.
    Have you ever not sinned since becoming a Christian?
    Please: I am not seeking an answer from you personally. I only want you to reflect on what I am saying here. You can answer in the third person if you like.

    Anyways, the idea is that you (or the believer) believe the Christian is saved even when you (or the believer) stumbled into sin. Unfortunately, according to the Bible: One is not properly dealing with sin and they are not treating sin as the danger that it is. Abiding in unconfessed grievous sin is spiritual death. Sin can destroy even a believer spiritually. This is a truth you deny. Jesus warned about how looking upon a woman in lust (not multiple times to qualify as a lifestyle of sin) means that one is in danger of being cast bodily into hellfire. Did Jesus tell believers that the solution was to simply believe on Him for salvation whenever they look upon a woman in lust on rare occasion? No.
    1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Being forgiven of sin is dealing with salvation. We confess so as to maintain or restore our salvation. We then forsake this sin, as well. For Proverbs 28:13 says he that confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy.

    It's not about me. It's about what the Bible teaches. Unbelievers do not desire to do certain sins, that does not mean they have Christ living on the inside of them.
    Besides, what is your interpretation on 1 John 1:8 again? Do you not believe the Christian will always have some kind of sin in their life this side of Heaven as per 1 John 1:8? Is not one seeking to gratify the desires of the flesh by admitting that we will always sin as per an erroneous interpretation on 1 John 1:8?

    So you know better than the 47 translators that worked on the KJV?
    Do you believe the Word of God are pure words and that they have been preserved for our generation today?

    6 The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
    7 Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever." (Psalms 12:6-7).​

    So you believe George Sodini was saved?
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2020
  8. Alain Valdivia

    Alain Valdivia “Domine miserere nobis. Parce nos in Christo.”

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    So you condemn the Puritans for putting adulterers to death? Then you also in essence condemn Deuteronomy and other Laws places by a Just God that actually commands the death penalty to be placed towards certain sins. Now of course those Laws are no longer in placed because we are in a new Covenant.
    Another thing, Calvinism’s version of Perseverance is nothing like the “Once Saved, Always Saved.” The Puritans’ Calvinism was actually a cause of many people’s torment. They feared that they would sin so badly and prove they weren’t elect for example. And also, taking a Luther quote out of context is horrible. Roman Catholics do this to his quote on “sin boldly” not realizing the context. In fact, Luther actually believed that if someone commits mortal sin they lose their salvation. “Therefore it is necessary to know and teach that when holy people—aside from the fact that they still have and feel original sin and also daily repent of it and struggle against it—somehow fall into a public sin (such as David, who fell into adultery, murder, and blasphemy against God), at that point faith and the Spirit have departed. The Holy Spirit does not allow sin to rule and gain the upper hand so that it is brought to completion, but the Spirit controls and resists so that sin is not able to do whatever it wants. However, when sin does whatever it wants, then the Holy Spirit and faith are not there. As St. John says (1 John 3:9*): “Those who have been born of God do not sin . . . and cannot sin.” Nevertheless, this is also the truth (as the same St. John writes [1:8*]): “If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth of God is not in us.”
     
  9. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    You just contradicted yourself. Of course at one time in the Old Covenant the judicial laws on putting to death adulterers was valid during that time period, but the Puritans were not under the Old Covenant, but the New Covenant. They were acting as if they were Old Covenant believers. Jesus commanded us to love our enemies, and to do good towards them, and to pray for them. Jesus did not teach we are to continue in this Old Covenant law of stoning others over adultery. In fact, the woman caught in the act of adultery and who was brought before Jesus shows that things have changed.

    Yet, they would murder others.
    It was said that Puritans did not laugh but they only did so at the sight of a burning witch. The Scriptures say that God does not take pleasure in the destruction of the wicked (Ezekiel 33:11).

    Sorry. It does not undo what Martin Luther said. There is no way to explain away him saying, "No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day." He really meant those words.
     
  10. SeventyOne

    SeventyOne Well-Known Member

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    Yup. Since the criteria is perfection in all words, thoughts, and deeds, we all have, every day.

    Actually, this is the lie you push. The false gospel you will give an account for spreading. It's funny. You ask me if I sin but then you sin each time you push this lie. The irony is not lost on me.

    You've just condemned us all. Good thing I'm justified by His righteousness and not my own.



    Of course I think it's been preserved, in the Greek.

    How would I ever know anything about that?
     
  11. ChetSinger

    ChetSinger Well-Known Member

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    I don't think this should be this difficult. Even a child can understand the gospel.

    Will even the smallest sin keep us from the resurrection? Most definitely yes:
    But we don't become perfect by working. We can't. We become perfect by being forgiven:
    Works are a completely different issue. A believer can achieve the resurrection without works; the thief beside Christ did. Works result in a reward, and no works results in no reward:
     
  12. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    The Bible does not say you need to be perfect in every way in order to be saved so then that is why you need God's grace. However, the Bible does mention against how we are not to do certain sins otherwise will not inherit the Kingdom of God (Galatians 5:19-21) (1 Corinthians 6:9-10).

    Yes, it is true that we first need God's grace. This is how we are initially and ultimately saved. We are saved by God's mercy (Titus 3:5), and it is like a gift (Ephesians 2:8) (Note: Gifts are received one time). But God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (See: Titus 2:11-12).

    You said before that a Christian does not live in a habitual lifestyle of sin; Now you are suggesting words that appear to contradict that idea here by implying that we sin in words, thoughts, and deeds every day.

    You imply that we sin in our words every day. Yet, Jesus says, "For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned." (Matthew 12:37).

    You imply that we sin in our thoughts every day. Yet, Jesus says, "But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell." (Matthew 5:28-30).

    You imply that we sin our deeds every day. Yet, Jesus says, "And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God." (John 3:19-21).

    You can try and trick yourself that this is true, but you know deep down you are wrong. God is good, and His people are good, too. God cannot agree with our thinking that we can sin and still be saved. Sin is foreign to God because 1 John 1:5 says there is no darkness within Him. God is love, and God is good. God is light and the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness comprehended it not.

    "Let grace be shown to the wicked, Yet he will not learn righteousness; In the land of uprightness he will deal unjustly, And will not behold the majesty of the LORD." (Isaiah 26:10).

    Sorry. Your belief is not found in the Bible. We not only believe in the blood of Jesus for salvation (Romans 3:25), but we also have to "walk in the light" in order for the blood of Jesus to cleanse us from all sin, too (See: 1 John 1:7).

    But this generation today does not speak and write Koine Greek like those who did so in the past.
    It is technically a dead language and scholars today are guessing as to what this language says.

    By reading your Bible. You can know that 1 John 3:15 says that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him; And Numbers 35:16-17 says that it only takes one murder to be a murderer and it does not take habitual murder in order to be a murderer or one who practices murder in order to be condemned. It only takes one act of murder to be a murderer, and no murderer has eternal life abiding in them according to 1 John 3:15. Do you believe 1 John 3:15? I don't see how you can (Seeing it is at odds with a belief that you find more comforting).
     
  13. SeventyOne

    SeventyOne Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, but you're not going to be able to entice me away from the gospel as those who deceived the Galatians.

    And the KJV people did their share of guessing at times as well.

    I don't go around saying this person is saved or that other person is not, unlike you apparently. I don't know this person. I don't know a single thing about them, at all, other than what you claim, and you aren't a reliable source of truth.
     
  14. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Paul was not referring to all forms of Law (like the commands of Jesus and His followers).

    Galatians 5:2 says,
    "Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing."

    Circumcision is a part of the Law of Moses (the Old Law) and it was not a command given to us by Jesus and His followers. This means Paul was not referring to all forms of Law. For Paul was not speaking against the Law of Christ (Galatians 6:2), neither was he speaking against the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:2), and neither was Paul speaking against the Perfect Law of Liberty (James 1:25).

    "Circumcision Salvationism" was the issue or problem that Paul was dealing with. The Galatians were trying to think that they needed to first be saved by circumcision instead of first being saved by faith in Jesus Christ.

    Proof?

    This problem was addressed at the Jerusalem Council:

    1. Acts of the Apostles 15:1 says, “And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.”

    2. Acts of the Apostles 15:5 says, But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”

    3. Acts of the Apostles 15:24 says, “Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:”

    Yet, you believe Paul says that one is saved even if they break God's moral laws (like murder, adultery, hating, drunkenness, etc.). Yet, Paul does not agree with you. Paul says,

    "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. " (Galatians 5:19-21).

    In most cases, whenever Paul speaks negatively of words like: "Law" and "works" he is most times referring to the Law of Moses. Paul is referring in going back to the whole of the 613 laws of Moses as a means to be saved instead of first getting right with God and ultimately staying right with Him by faith in Jesus Christ. Grace is one aspect of our salvation, but Sanctification is another aspect or step in the salvation process (Note: To see verses on both "Justification" and "Sanctification" as being a part of salvation, see: 2 Thessalonians 2:13, James 2:24, and John 5:24).

    I believe God used these men despite their imperfections to preserve His Word perfectly for this generation today. If this is not the case, then you might as well throw out Psalms 12:6-7.

    You are not dealing with 1 John 3:15. Please deal with that verse. You can say whatever you like as a form of not trying to deal with 1 John 3:15, but it is still going to be there in your Bible tomorrow and the next day after that, etc.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2020
  15. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    A "Secure in One's Sin Type Gospel" being taught to children is what sickens me the most these days. For if you told a child that their future sin was forgiven them, and you never got to see them again, they could turn out to be yet another George Sodini. In fact, children have already committed suicide because of their belief in OSAS or a "Secure in their Sin" type belief. Kenneth Nally is just one of several of them.

    "At the trial, MacArthur, 45, is seeking to clarify his church’s teaching on suicide. “It’s not only a sin, it’s illegal,” he says. “But we teach that even if a believer takes his own life, the Lord will still receive him into His presence.”

    Source:
    Fundamentalist Clergymen Face Charges of 'Malpractice' When a Parishioner Turns to Suicide

    As for George Sodini: To learn more about him, check out this link here:
    GEORGE SODINI

    Try doing a study on the word "perfect" in your Bible sometime. You will be shocked to learn that it is teaching the exact opposite of what you just said here.

    Side Note: I don't believe "Sinless Perfection" is a salvation issue because not all sin is the same, but we do have to meet the bare minimum level requirement of living holy according to the Bible. We cannot abide in those sins that the Bible says can destroy our souls and or lead to hellfire or condemnation.

    There is not a one size fits all salvation package for all men. Jesus says to whom much is given, much is required. A person who lives out their faith is in a far different situation than a person who accepts Jesus on their deathbed. Babies who die in the womb are saved and yet they did not exercise faith in Jesus to be saved.

    As for your loose reference to 1 Corinthians 3:

    Paul says before the parable, "you are God's building." So we are the materials that make up the building.

    I believe Paul and the other apostles are a part of the foundation with Christ being the chief cornerstone or the ultimate baseline foundation (Ephesians 2:20), and that Paul's work in the gospel are the result of the Corinthians being initially saved by the gospel. However, Paul is now concerned that his labor in the gospel (concerning them) is now in vain because the Corinthians are now working the sins of strife and envying (Note: Paul condemns the sins of strife and envying when writing to the Galatians (Galatians 5:19-21). Paul says that they which do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God). In Galatians 4:11, Paul was concerned for the Galatians in that they were going back to the Old Law so as to be justified or saved. He was concerned that his labor for the gospel was in vain for the Galatians.

    So the parable speaks of how his labor for the gospel (concerning the Corinthians) was now possibly in vain for them, too.

    The chief cornerstone foundation = Jesus Christ.
    Built as a part of the foundation on top of Christ = The apostles (including Paul) (Ephesians 2:20).
    The actual building materials of the tower or building = God's people (In this instance it would be the Corinthians).
    The Corinthians would be like: Wood, hay, and stubble in this particular point in time within their life while they abided in their sins of strife, and envying (Which are sins that will cause a person to not inherit the Kingdom of God).
    Wood, hay, and stubble are not materials that could survive a fire.
    Paul (the soul winner, and builder of the gospel and builder upon the foundation of Jesus Christ) would be saved through the fire (despite his work - i.e. the Corinthians being his work) would be burned up because of their sins. For Paul then says that if any man defiles the temple, God will destroy them. We are the temple of God. Our bodies are the temples of God. If we as believers defile our temples by sin, God will destroy us.

    So I don't believe it is in reference to the Eternal Security Proponent's belief that says that they will just loose rewards because of their sinning. That makes absolutely no sense in light of the entire context.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2020
  16. ChetSinger

    ChetSinger Well-Known Member

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    I think you misunderstand me. I'm not an OSAS believer by any definition. I'm sorry if I've given you that opinion.

    Thanks, I'll look into that.

    We differ here. I believe we must indeed have sinless perfection to attain the resurrection. But there's more than one way to achieve that. You can pursue that with me if you wish.

    OK, we disagree completely here, and I've never before heard your interpretation of it. Is it taught by your denomination and can you point me to references? As an aside, I don't think it has anything to do with "the Eternal Security Proponent's belief that says that they will just loose rewards because of their sinning" because I'm not a believer in Eternal Security anyway. I believe it teaches that we are rewarded only for those works that have eternal value; it isn't speaking of sin. Here are some expansions of this:

    1 Corinthians Chapter 3

    Do Good Work (1 Corinthians 3:10–17)
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2020
  17. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    When I speak of OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved, or Eternal Security), the ultimate underlying problem behind such a belief is the wrong thinking that teaches that one is "Secure in Their Salvation Despite Their Grievous Unconfessed Sin." One does not have to believe in OSAS to hold to this viewpoint (Although OSAS is one of the more obvious or more notable beliefs that holds to this view). Free Will Baptists deny OSAS, but they believe that grievous unconfessed sin (like hate, lust, lying, etc.) does not separate a believer from GOD. Even some professing Conditional Salvationists who are for the necessity of holy living in salvation (like David Servant) believe that a believer can abide in unconfessed sin and still be saved, too. (See David Servant's article here of his criticism of Dan Corner on a biblical truth, and Dan Corner's biblical explanation on the matter of David Servant here.) (Note: While I am not a fan of Dan Corner in the fact that he could be a lot more loving in the way he speaks and writes in correcting others, I agree with him on the biblical truth that certain grievous unconfessed sins cause spiritual death, unless we confess and forsake them - 1 John 1:9, 1 John 1:7, Proverbs 28:13.).

    We are living in the last days, and many have a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof (See: 2 Timothy 3:1-9). Jesus says, "...when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?” (Luke 18:8).

    I have also provided a long list of verses and explanations in this thread here, too (if you are interested):

    The Scriptures Teaching on Sinless Perfection.

    While I do not believe we have to be perfect in every way to be saved, I believe we have to be perfect in certain characteristics or certain things as a part of salvation. We have to be perfect as the Heavenly Father is perfect in that aspect of teaching in context that we are to love our enemies. For Hebrews 12:14 says to follow after peace with all men.... without which, no man shall see the Lord. So if we are not seeking to make peace with men, we are not going to see God. Meaning, if we are not hoping and working for all men (including our enemies) to be saved by the gospel of peace, we are not going to see God. We should never hope for condemnation upon any man. We should strive to make peace with all men and lead them to the truth of God's Word. I believe this is a part of loving our neighbor. Granted, this sometimes is something that we have to learn as a process and it is not always an overnight thing. Jonah had a hard time forgiving the Ninevites (Who were God's enemies).

    1 Corinthians 3 was a conundrum to me for a long time. No interpretation ever sat exactly 100% right to me before in my spirit. It was kind of like a mystery to me before until a few weeks ago.

    Another poster on the forums, and this article here helped me to see what the parable of the building and it's materials was really saying in 1 Corinthians 3. At first, I did not initially accept what the poster was saying, and I happen to run into an article later that helped to explain it a little better. The parable that Paul makes in 1 Corinthians 3 about the building materials makes a whole lot more sense now in light of the context. It all fits together neatly like a jigsaw puzzle coming together. It's so crystal clear now. I rejoiced when I discovered the truth of it. But you have to study that truth for yourself. See why that view makes sense. It may sound odd to you at first (as it did for me in the beginning, but after hearing it explained in a different way, it made a lot more sense).
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2020
  18. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    @ChetSinger

    To help you with 1 Corinthians 3:

    In Corinthians 3: Try reading the parable as if you were Paul being the builder. Try re-reading the parable as if it was Paul referring to himself as the builder and the works are the Corinthian believers who are now wood, hay, and stubble (i.e. Paul's work in the gospel is now in vain concerning them) because they are now justifying the sins of strife and envy (See: 1 Corinthians 3:3 and compare with Galatians 5:19-21). Paul concludes in his parable that if any man defiles the temple of God, they will be destroyed.

    How does it apply to our life?
    Well, if you teach men the gospel and they later decide to justify certain sins, your work in the gospel involving them would be at a loss of their own souls later on the account of their justifying certain sins. The believers you taught the gospel to in this particular instance would be like wood, hay, stubble that would be burned up, but you yourself would be saved if you remain faithful to the Lord until death. They would not be saved, but you would be.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2020
  19. ChetSinger

    ChetSinger Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for your thoughts, but once again I think you're aiming at the wrong guy. I'm not OSAS or any variation of it.

    I guess I might be an even harder judge than you are: I believe we must be without sin. Consider Adam: he ate a fruit. Seriously, all he did was eat a fruit. One single fruit. But because it was sin ("...whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin.") he died. And that action condemned all of us to death as well. Billions of people. For one single stinking fruit? Yep.

    But at the wedding feast of the Lamb the bride of Christ will be perfect. There will be no sin in her. None whatsoever.

    So how do we get there? One obvious answer is by the blood of Christ, which forgives our sins and cleanses us from all unrighteousness.

    But in the NT there's also a second answer: sins are covered by practicing love toward one another. In Matthew 25 "all of the nations" stand before Christ and are judged by their works of love. In Jesus' time the phrase "the nations" was a term for the non-Jewish world. These are people who were not chosen by God, yet will attain the resurrection because they practiced love to others. Love covers a multitude of sins, and that's how those not-chosen people will qualify for the next age. It appears God wants to be surrounded by loving people in the resurrection, whether he chose them or not. Likewise, we also will have sins overlooked if we practice love toward others.

    Sorry, we'll disagree on this. I think the interpretation given by my links (and which I've also heard in church) is more straightforward.
     
  20. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Well, I have heard this before, and I have remained skeptical by what people say. No offense (of course). So I will ask you a couple of test questions to see if we are on the same page.

    #1. Did David die spiritually at the time of when he committed his sins of adultery and murder?
    #2. Do you believe a Christian can die while committing a grievous sin like lying, lusting, and or hating, etc. and still be saved?
    #3. Do you believe that we are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace through faith (Justification), and that Sanctification (God doing the good work in us to live holy, put away sin, and to be fruitful) is a part of the salvation process?
    #4. If a Christian sins, do they lose salvation right away or they only in danger of losing salvation?
    #5. What is the remedy for a Christian that does stumble into sin on occasion?

    So you believe sinless perfection is a salvation issue?
    If you go over the speed limit a little, you believe that can condemn you before God? What if you were not paying attention of your speed and or you ran into area where the speed dropped lower and you did not see the sign? What then? Are you condemned? Granted, I am not saying we should speed or anything, but the point here is that God's Word does not condemn certain things; Especially if they are not a major violation of loving Him, and others. Now, I can say in some circumstances, speeding can be a lack of love towards one's neighbor. If one speeds in a school zone or speeds on a side street where kids are playing, they are taking the chance on killing a child (Which is not loving to one's neighbor).

    But God specifically told Adam and Eve that they would die in the day they ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. I believe the Bible teaches that there are minor infractions or faults of character that will not condemn us.

    Minor infractions or faults of character is another name for a "sin not unto death" (i.e. not unto death = not unto spiritual death or the second death) (Note: While the "sin not unto death" mentioned in 1 John 5:17 is in context to confessed sin in John's epistle (See: 1 John 1:9), it can be extended loosely to refer to the kind of sins that do not lead to spiritual death by it's very name).

    "Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults."
    (Psalms 19:12).​

    Examples of Sins That Do Not Lead Unto Spiritual Death:

    #1. 1 John 5:17 mentions the "sin not unto death."
    In context to 1 John 5: This would be talking about confessed grievous sin that one is striving to overcome with the Lord's help (1 John 2:1) (1 John 1:9) (Romans 13:14). In 1 John 5, the brethren are praying for this believer to have victory (life) over their sin as this believer confesses their sin (Note: Grievous sin are sins the Bible warns with punishment by hellfire, or spiritual death, etc.; These would be sins like murder, hate, adultery, theft, idolatry, etc.). If these sins are confessed with the intention of forsaking them, the individual is not abiding in spiritual death.

    #2. Psalms 19:12 says, "Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults." I believe these would be faults of character or minor errors that a person might make with people. Example: A person may not be a great listener, and they do not allow others to speak like they should. By not listening to others may come off a little like they do not care (even though they care in their own way or a different way). Paul wanted to go to Jerusalem. The Spirit warned Paul not to go. He was still determined to go because he loved His fellow Jews and wanted them to know the love of Jesus. The Spirit told the brethren that Paul will be imprisoned by his going to Jerusalem. The brethren warned Paul not to go. They were in tears and loved him and begged him not to go. But Paul did not listen. He would not hear them. He did not want to hear it. Fault of character. Hidden fault. Minor error of his character. It is not something that condemned him (See Acts of the Apostles 21, and read this article here by Ray Stedman; Note: There is even a better write up than this one by Bible commentator James Boice here; Please keep in mind I do not share their views on Soteriology, though; I merely agree with their view on what happened with Paul in Acts of the Apostles 21).

    #3. The Command to Be Baptized.
    Paul says Christ sent him not to baptize but to preach the gospel (1 Corinthians 1:17). If it was essential to salvation, then why would Paul say something like this? In 1 Peter 3:21: Peter says baptism is not for the putting away of the filth of the flesh. If you were to turn to 2 Corinthians 7:1, you would see that it uses similar wording ("filthiness of the flesh") that is clearly in reference to sin. So Peter is saying that baptism is not for the putting away of "sin" [i.e. filth of the flesh]. In other words, baptism is not a command that if disobeyed, leads to spiritual death.

    #4. Other Commands in the New Testament that do not seem like a major violation of loving God and loving your neighbor that have no death penalties attached to them. One example would be the command to Rejoice when men persecute you or falsely accuse you of evil in Matthew 5:11-12.

    Real world examples: Going 5 miles per hour over the speed limit in area that is not life threatening to others. Not taking out the trash yesterday when it was a little stinky. These minor transgressions would obviously not send a Christian to hell.

    But we as Christians strive to obey and do good in all things in the Lord. We strive to keep His commandments. For it is written,

    "For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.' (1 John 5:3).​


    Side Note:

    Please understand that it is not possible for a person to obey God's commands without them first being saved by Jesus Christ and His grace (i.e. by seeking forgiveness of their sin with Him, and believing in His death, and resurrection on their behalf). For Christians are initially and ultimately saved by Jesus Christ.

    By what you wrote here, if I am understanding you correctly, I agree with what you stated here.

    I am curious now. I will check it out.

    Blessings to you in the Lord this fine evening.

    With loving kindness to you in Christ,

    Sincerely,

    ~J.
     
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