True saving faith is proven by passing all of these TESTS

[Bible Highlighter]

@ChetSinger

I read the article you provided for the parable in 1 Corinthians 3:6-17.

I believe it is not just any kind of work we do for Christ. But it is doing the work of an evangelist. The fruit or the kind of people we bring to the faith are the building materials. The building materials is God's building. We are told that we are God's building.

In context, verse 6 focuses on the work of evangelism or in bringing others to the faith.

6 "I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour." (1 Corinthians 3:6-8).​

Apollos watered is in reference to his evangelism efforts in helping to cultivate the seed of the Word of God within a person's heart whereby it can grow and be fruitful. We are not anything in and of ourselves. We cannot boast in ourselves in what we do. God is the One who ultimately gives the increase and changes men's hearts. Verse 8 focuses on the KIND of work. He that plants and waters. They shall receive a reward according to their labor. Christ will reward the work of an evangelist if their work (i.e. the people they brought to Christ) turns out to be gold, silver, or precious stone. Meaning, if they bring to the faith men of God who do great things for the Lord's kingdom, the evangelist who brought them to the faith will be rewarded for their efforts. If the evangelist brought to the faith somebody who later turns out to be like stone, hay, and stubble because they justify sin (and destroy their own temple as a result), the evangelist himself is saved through the fire even though the believers he brought to the faith will perish because of the evil they did later on.

Side Note:

Also, it says we are God's field. The field is an analogy to the Parable of the Sower. The Parable of the Sower is about how the Son of Man sows the seed of the Word of God into men's hearts. Some seeds do not endure and they perish, and yet one seed does grow and it becomes really fruitful.

The parable is a rebuke to the Corinthians. In 1 Corinthians 3: They are like the hay, wood, and stubble that will be burned unless they repent (of which they do later do according to 2 Corinthians 7:10, and 2 Corinthians 12:20-21).

The Corinthians want to feel important, but they are not doing it God's way and refraining from sins like strife and envy (1 Corinthians 3:3) which are sins mentioned in Galatians 5:19-21 and are said that they which do such things will not inherit the Kingdom of God. The Corinthians can feel that they matter the correct way by being building wisely on Jesus Christ (Instead of boasting in their leaders) whereby they can receive a reward in the end by the Lord for their evangelism efforts. If they teach God's grace and in living holy, they will properly do the work of an evangelist (with God giving the increase). Sure, some may fall away in their evangelism efforts, but they themselves will be saved if they are faithful to the Lord. If they sin, they defile themselves, and God will destroy their temple (i.e. their body). They will perish and not be saved.

 

[A_Thinker]

Seems to me you don't read carefully ...
22 and 24 talk about commandments plural.
23 talks about one commandment.
HUGE DIFFERENCE.

Nope ... there's two commandments there ...

 

[A_Thinker]

Well, I have heard this before, and I have remained skeptical by what people say. No offense (of course). So I will ask you a couple of test questions to see if we are on the same page.

You have the gift of inspection ?

 

[ChetSinger]

Well, I have heard this before, and I have remained skeptical by what people say. No offense (of course). So I will ask you a couple of test questions to see if we are on the same page.

#1. Did David die spiritually at the time of when he committed his sins of adultery and murder?
#2. Do you believe a Christian can die while committing a grievous sin like lying, lusting, and or hating, etc. and still be saved?
#3. Do you believe that we are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace through faith (Justification), and that Sanctification (God doing the good work in us to live holy, put away sin, and to be fruitful) is a part of the salvation process?
#4. If a Christian sins, do they lose salvation right away or they only in danger of losing salvation?
#5. What is the remedy for a Christian that does stumble into sin on occasion?



So you believe sinless perfection is a salvation issue?
If you go over the speed limit a little, you believe that can condemn you before God? What if you were not paying attention of your speed and or you ran into area where the speed dropped lower and you did not see the sign? What then? Are you condemned? Granted, I am not saying we should speed or anything, but the point here is that God's Word does not condemn certain things; Especially if they are not a major violation of loving Him, and others. Now, I can say in some circumstances, speeding can be a lack of love towards one's neighbor. If one speeds in a school zone or speeds on a side street where kids are playing, they are taking the chance on killing a child (Which is not loving to one's neighbor).



But God specifically told Adam and Eve that they would die in the day they ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. I believe the Bible teaches that there are minor infractions or faults of character that will not condemn us.

Minor infractions or faults of character is another name for a "sin not unto death" (i.e. not unto death = not unto spiritual death or the second death) (Note: While the "sin not unto death" mentioned in 1 John 5:17 is in context to confessed sin in John's epistle (See: 1 John 1:9), it can be extended loosely to refer to the kind of sins that do not lead to spiritual death by it's very name).

"Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults."
(Psalms 19:12).​

Examples of Sins That Do Not Lead Unto Spiritual Death:

#1. 1 John 5:17 mentions the "sin not unto death."
In context to 1 John 5: This would be talking about confessed grievous sin that one is striving to overcome with the Lord's help (1 John 2:1) (1 John 1:9) (Romans 13:14). In 1 John 5, the brethren are praying for this believer to have victory (life) over their sin as this believer confesses their sin (Note: Grievous sin are sins the Bible warns with punishment by hellfire, or spiritual death, etc.; These would be sins like murder, hate, adultery, theft, idolatry, etc.). If these sins are confessed with the intention of forsaking them, the individual is not abiding in spiritual death.

#2. Psalms 19:12 says, "Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults." I believe these would be faults of character or minor errors that a person might make with people. Example: A person may not be a great listener, and they do not allow others to speak like they should. By not listening to others may come off a little like they do not care (even though they care in their own way or a different way). Paul wanted to go to Jerusalem. The Spirit warned Paul not to go. He was still determined to go because he loved His fellow Jews and wanted them to know the love of Jesus. The Spirit told the brethren that Paul will be imprisoned by his going to Jerusalem. The brethren warned Paul not to go. They were in tears and loved him and begged him not to go. But Paul did not listen. He would not hear them. He did not want to hear it. Fault of character. Hidden fault. Minor error of his character. It is not something that condemned him (See Acts of the Apostles 21, and read this article here by Ray Stedman; Note: There is even a better write up than this one by Bible commentator James Boice here; Please keep in mind I do not share their views on Soteriology, though; I merely agree with their view on what happened with Paul in Acts of the Apostles 21).

#3. The Command to Be Baptized.
Paul says Christ sent him not to baptize but to preach the gospel (1 Corinthians 1:17). If it was essential to salvation, then why would Paul say something like this? In 1 Peter 3:21: Peter says baptism is not for the putting away of the filth of the flesh. If you were to turn to 2 Corinthians 7:1, you would see that it uses similar wording ("filthiness of the flesh") that is clearly in reference to sin. So Peter is saying that baptism is not for the putting away of "sin" [i.e. filth of the flesh]. In other words, baptism is not a command that if disobeyed, leads to spiritual death.

#4. Other Commands in the New Testament that do not seem like a major violation of loving God and loving your neighbor that have no death penalties attached to them. One example would be the command to Rejoice when men persecute you or falsely accuse you of evil in Matthew 5:11-12.

Real world examples: Going 5 miles per hour over the speed limit in area that is not life threatening to others. Not taking out the trash yesterday when it was a little stinky. These minor transgressions would obviously not send a Christian to hell.

But we as Christians strive to obey and do good in all things in the Lord. We strive to keep His commandments. For it is written,

"For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.' (1 John 5:3).​

Side Note:

Please understand that it is not possible for a person to obey God's commands without them first being saved by Jesus Christ and His grace (i.e. by seeking forgiveness of their sin with Him, and believing in His death, and resurrection on their behalf). For Christians are initially and ultimately saved by Jesus Christ.



By what you wrote here, if I am understanding you correctly, I agree with what you stated here.



I am curious now. I will check it out.

Blessings to you in the Lord this fine evening.

With loving kindness to you in Christ,

Sincerely,

~J.

I've learned something here: I'm having trouble finding enough time to engage in detailed and sustained discussions. But I do appreciate and see value in this conversation. I will respond to this as best I can, probably tomorrow morning. After that I think I'll have to dial my responses back to one subject per post. Cheers!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

“And we are God’s house, IF we keep our courage and
remain confident in our hope in Christ” (Hebrews 3:6)

"but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house-- whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end." (Hebrews 3:6) (NASB).

In 1 Corinthians 3:6-17, it describes how we are God's building. If we defile the temple (via by sin), God will destroy us.

Many today ignore the conditional words like "if" because they do not fit with their view of Soteriology that is more comforting to them.

All we can do is speak God's Word to them in love, and pray for them.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I've learned something here: I'm having trouble finding enough time to engage in detailed and sustained discussions. But I do appreciate and see value in this conversation. I will respond to this as best I can, probably tomorrow morning. After that I think I'll have to dial my responses back to one subject per post. Cheers!

I can only hope that it turns out to be iron sharpening iron, brother
(Proverbs 27:17).

May you be strong in the Lord and the power of His might.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You have the gift of inspection ?

May...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

2 John 1:6 says,

 

[Bible Highlighter]

1 John 4:7 says,

For even the animals teach us love.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

This love is what leads us to Jesus in the flesh.

 

[ChetSinger]

Well, I have heard this before, and I have remained skeptical by what people say. No offense (of course). So I will ask you a couple of test questions to see if we are on the same page.

Sure. But these are only my opinions, received from pulpits and from reading. I'm no theologian.

#1. Did David die spiritually at the time of when he committed his sins of adultery and murder?
For a time, I think he did. David committed those sins while under the Mosaic law, so he deserved death. Yet he was still in the presence of God and still had the Holy Spirit because of Psalm 51:11. And he received a special dispensation from God, transmitted through Nathan, so that he wasn't killed for his deeds. God didn't give up on him, but forgave and restored him. I see that as an example of the love of God.

#2. Do you believe a Christian can die while committing a grievous sin like lying, lusting, and or hating, etc. and still be saved?
Likely not, I think. However, have they been practicing love? Love does cover a multitude of sins. But I don't know how many.

#3. Do you believe that we are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace through faith (Justification), and that Sanctification (God doing the good work in us to live holy, put away sin, and to be fruitful) is a part of the salvation process?
Heh, it sounds as if you're asking me whether I'm Orthodox or Protestant. I'm Protestant. I believe our salvation is instantaneous. But also that we do have to continue with Christ (as in John 15) and keep the faith firm to the end. That doesn't mean we can't sin...the blood of Christ remains available to us always...but that we can't turn away to others. I think there's an analogy from the Old Testament that is relevant: the northern tribes were eventually abandoned by God, but not because of sins since there were laws in place to handle them. It was because they abandoned him for other gods. Likewise, we now have the blood of Christ to handle sins, but we can't abandon God.

#4. If a Christian sins, do they lose salvation right away or they only in danger of losing salvation?
Likely only in danger, imo. God isn't lying in wait for us, looking to pounce on us when we're guilty...that's what the devil would do. On the contrary, God disciplines us. Parents don't discipline their children when they've done right, but when they've done wrong. We're not booted out of the family when we sin, and we're not abandoned when we go astray.

#5. What is the remedy for a Christian that does stumble into sin on occasion?
Confession and repentance. And also being forgiving to others, so we don't share the fate of the unforgiving servant in Matthew 18.

So you believe sinless perfection is a salvation issue?
If you go over the speed limit a little, you believe that can condemn you before God? What if you were not paying attention of your speed and or you ran into area where the speed dropped lower and you did not see the sign? What then? Are you condemned? Granted, I am not saying we should speed or anything, but the point here is that God's Word does not condemn certain things; Especially if they are not a major violation of loving Him, and others. Now, I can say in some circumstances, speeding can be a lack of love towards one's neighbor. If one speeds in a school zone or speeds on a side street where kids are playing, they are taking the chance on killing a child (Which is not loving to one's neighbor).

Paul spends some time talking about our conscience and I see a place for it. My conscience doesn't bother me if I go over the speed limit a little. So I don't consider that sin for me. But my conscience once struck me deeply when I drove past a school bus that had its loading lights on because I wasn't paying enough attention. That was sin for me.

And someone whose conscience forbids them from eating meat can sin by eating some, even though it breaks no laws of God. I think it all gets pretty personal.

But God specifically told Adam and Eve that they would die in the day they ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. I believe the Bible teaches that there are minor infractions or faults of character that will not condemn us.

Minor infractions or faults of character is another name for a "sin not unto death" (i.e. not unto death = not unto spiritual death or the second death) (Note: While the "sin not unto death" mentioned in 1 John 5:17 is in context to confessed sin in John's epistle (See: 1 John 1:9), it can be extended loosely to refer to the kind of sins that do not lead to spiritual death by it's very name).

"Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults."
(Psalms 19:12).​

Examples of Sins That Do Not Lead Unto Spiritual Death:

#1. 1 John 5:17 mentions the "sin not unto death."
In context to 1 John 5: This would be talking about confessed grievous sin that one is striving to overcome with the Lord's help (1 John 2:1) (1 John 1:9) (Romans 13:14). In 1 John 5, the brethren are praying for this believer to have victory (life) over their sin as this believer confesses their sin (Note: Grievous sin are sins the Bible warns with punishment by hellfire, or spiritual death, etc.; These would be sins like murder, hate, adultery, theft, idolatry, etc.). If these sins are confessed with the intention of forsaking them, the individual is not abiding in spiritual death.

#2. Psalms 19:12 says, "Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults." I believe these would be faults of character or minor errors that a person might make with people. Example: A person may not be a great listener, and they do not allow others to speak like they should. By not listening to others may come off a little like they do not care (even though they care in their own way or a different way). Paul wanted to go to Jerusalem. The Spirit warned Paul not to go. He was still determined to go because he loved His fellow Jews and wanted them to know the love of Jesus. The Spirit told the brethren that Paul will be imprisoned by his going to Jerusalem. The brethren warned Paul not to go. They were in tears and loved him and begged him not to go. But Paul did not listen. He would not hear them. He did not want to hear it. Fault of character. Hidden fault. Minor error of his character. It is not something that condemned him (See Acts of the Apostles 21, and read this article here by Ray Stedman; Note: There is even a better write up than this one by Bible commentator James Boice here; Please keep in mind I do not share their views on Soteriology, though; I merely agree with their view on what happened with Paul in Acts of the Apostles 21).

#3. The Command to Be Baptized.
Paul says Christ sent him not to baptize but to preach the gospel (1 Corinthians 1:17). If it was essential to salvation, then why would Paul say something like this? In 1 Peter 3:21: Peter says baptism is not for the putting away of the filth of the flesh. If you were to turn to 2 Corinthians 7:1, you would see that it uses similar wording ("filthiness of the flesh") that is clearly in reference to sin. So Peter is saying that baptism is not for the putting away of "sin" [i.e. filth of the flesh]. In other words, baptism is not a command that if disobeyed, leads to spiritual death.

#4. Other Commands in the New Testament that do not seem like a major violation of loving God and loving your neighbor that have no death penalties attached to them. One example would be the command to Rejoice when men persecute you or falsely accuse you of evil in Matthew 5:11-12.

Real world examples: Going 5 miles per hour over the speed limit in area that is not life threatening to others. Not taking out the trash yesterday when it was a little stinky. These minor transgressions would obviously not send a Christian to hell.

But we as Christians strive to obey and do good in all things in the Lord. We strive to keep His commandments. For it is written,

"For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.' (1 John 5:3).​

I think God forgives and overlooks a lot of things, perhaps for no other reason than he loves us and it's his good pleasure to give us the kingdom. For example, here's Solomon:

"Good sense makes a man slow to anger, and it is his glory to overlook an offense."​

I think that's how God treats us. It's his prerogative. I think he gives us more post-conversion grace than I sense when I read some of the OP's posts. I think we can continue with confidence to draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

This is a really wordy post, for me. Btw, I've picked this up from multiple pulpits, including Calvinist, Arminian, and some in between. My current church is halfway Calvinist, which is kind of odd because I'm not one. But they have a good youth program and even a K12 school for my children, so that's where I landed.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Sure. But these are only my opinions, received from pulpits and from reading. I'm no theologian.

#1. Did David die spiritually at the time of when he committed his sins of adultery and murder?
For a time, I think he did. David committed those sins while under the Mosaic law, so he deserved death. Yet he was still in the presence of God and still had the Holy Spirit because of Psalm 51:11. And he received a special dispensation from God, transmitted through Nathan, so that he wasn't killed for his deeds. God didn't give up on him, but forgave and restored him. I see that as an example of the love of God.

I believe David did not receive spiritual life or forgiveness again until he confessed of his sin to the Lord in Psalms 51. Yes, the Spirit was upon Him as a part of the anointing as king, but I do not believe David was saved spiritually until he confessed of his sin. God was holding out mercy for David to confess of his sin.

#2. Do you believe a Christian can die while committing a grievous sin like lying, lusting, and or hating, etc. and still be saved?
Likely not, I think. However, have they been practicing love? Love does cover a multitude of sins. But I don't know how many.

I believe this would be in regards to past sins. While a believer can be forgiven spiritually of their sins via by confessing of them to Jesus (1 John 1:9 cf 1 John 2:1, Proverbs 28:13), sometimes there may be physical consequences. If we love, love in some cases help to cover these bad consequences. It does not exactly mean we have forgiveness if we just love others. For if we are doing sinful things, and we do not confess and we think that loving others instead of confessing sin is the remedy to deal with sin, then I do not think we are on the right track. Jesus condemned those who did wonderful works in his name and yet He told them to depart from Him because they worked iniquity (or sin) (Matthew 7:23).

#3. Do you believe that we are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace through faith (Justification), and that Sanctification (God doing the good work in us to live holy, put away sin, and to be fruitful) is a part of the salvation process?
Heh, it sounds as if you're asking me whether I'm Orthodox or Protestant. I'm Protestant. I believe our salvation is instantaneous. But also that we do have to continue with Christ (as in John 15) and keep the faith firm to the end. That doesn't mean we can't sin...the blood of Christ remains available to us always...but that we can't turn away to others. I think there's an analogy from the Old Testament that is relevant: the northern tribes were eventually abandoned by God, but not because of sins since there were laws in place to handle them. It was because they abandoned him for other gods. Likewise, we now have the blood of Christ to handle sins, but we can't abandon God.

I am neither Orthodox, or Protestant, but I just believe what the Bible says. I am a Trinitarian Sola Scriptura Non-denominational Christian.

In a way you already admitted in a small way that Sanctification plays a part in salvation. You said love covers a multitude of sins. You obviously believe true love manifests itself in doing works of love, right?

"and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" (James 2:16) (NKJV).

"And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live. But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?

And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead. And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side. But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him, And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him. And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee. Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves? And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise." (Luke 10:25-37).
​

If you don't believe Sanctification does not play a part in our salvation, then how do you explain Romans 8:13, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, and Acts of the Apostles 3:23?
How do you explain John 15:1-6, Titus 1:16, and James 2:24?

When I was new in my faith, I used to think I was Protestant, but God talked to my heart not to associate with any denominational name. After reading the words of Martin Luther that say, "No sin will separate us from the Lamb, even though we commit fornication and murder a thousand times a day" I chose to distance myself even more from Protestantism. In fact, Martin Luther also said many other things that clearly show he was in error.

#4. If a Christian sins, do they lose salvation right away or they only in danger of losing salvation?
Likely only in danger, imo. God isn't lying in wait for us, looking to pounce on us when we're guilty...that's what the devil would do. On the contrary, God disciplines us. Parents don't discipline their children when they've done right, but when they've done wrong. We're not booted out of the family when we sin, and we're not abandoned when we go astray.

I agree that they are in danger and God is going to do everything in His power to chastise them and or to turn them back (if they are ultimately pure of heart and not seeking to justify sin as a mindset or way of life), but that does not mean such a person is not abiding in spiritual death in the meantime while they are in unconfessed grievous sin. I believe the Parable of the Prodigal Son makes it clear that when the prodigal son came home to the father and sought forgiveness with him, he was said to be "dead" and now he is "alive again." (See: Luke 15:11-32). I believe the parable is speaking in spiritual terms. The prodigal son was dead spiritually when he was spending his inheritance on prostitutes, and he became alive again spiritually when he came back home to his father and sought forgiveness with Him. Jesus is our Everlasting Father because one day he will resurrect us after His likeness.

#5. What is the remedy for a Christian that does stumble into sin on occasion?
Confession and repentance. And also being forgiving to others, so we don't share the fate of the unforgiving servant in Matthew 18.

I agree that we need to confess and forsake sin to have continued salvation.

Paul spends some time talking about our conscience and I see a place for it. My conscience doesn't bother me if I go over the speed limit a little. So I don't consider that sin for me. But my conscience once struck me deeply when I drove past a school bus that had its loading lights on because I wasn't paying enough attention. That was sin for me.

"Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves." (Romans 13:1-2).

Traffic laws are a part of the governing authorities. If we resist these laws, we are resisting the governing authorities. Governing authorities are placed into power by God, so if we resist them, we are resisting God in a manner of speaking. Granted, I think the context is speaking more of rebelling against the government (When that government is not telling you to violate God's laws). But the point here is that the traffic laws are a part of our obedience to God. But as you said, you do not consider it sin if you speed a little. I don't consider going over the speed limit a grievous sin like say "murder," but it is still a sin or a violation of the law of the land (that was put into power by God). Obedience to the traffic laws can in one sense be a reflection of our faith towards God.

And someone whose conscience forbids them from eating meat can sin by eating some, even though it breaks no laws of God. I think it all gets pretty personal.

Matters of what kind of food we can eat is usually dealing with a person still being hung up in regards to the Old Testament Law of Moses in some way. Some may not eat certain foods because they think they are extremely unhealthy and they don't want to harm their temple or body. Dietary laws of the OT are no longer in effect anymore. But it can be a matter of conscience today (Which is different than say the traffic laws). Traffic laws are not optional if we drive in traffic. There are consequences (possibly even death of oneself and or others) if we do not obey the traffic laws.

I think God forgives and overlooks a lot of things, perhaps for no other reason than he loves us and it's his good pleasure to give us the kingdom. For example, here's Solomon:

"Good sense makes a man slow to anger, and it is his glory to overlook an offense."​

I think that's how God treats us. It's his prerogative. I think he gives us more post-conversion grace than I sense when I read some of the OP's posts. I think we can continue with confidence to draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

I agree that God can give believers lots of grace, but I believe this is for the saint whom He knows will turn out to be good in the end. They are the kind of saint who turns out to be pure of heart, and they will not ultimately seek to justify sin or believe they will always be a slave to sin in this life, etc. They seek to overcome grievous sin and to live for the Lord and to lead others into paths of righteousness and not a path that turns God's grace into a license for immorality.

This is a really wordy post, for me. Btw, I've picked this up from multiple pulpits, including Calvinist, Arminian, and some in between. My current church is halfway Calvinist, which is kind of odd because I'm not one. But they have a good youth program and even a K12 school for my children, so that's where I landed.

I believe all 5 points of Calvinism are unbiblical. I believe Calvinism helped to spread Eternal Security and or the "sin and still be saved" type belief we see today. While Calvinism appears to teach holy living, this is not always so when you dig beneath the surface in what it really teaches.

John MacArthur (A Calvinist and promoter of Lordship Salvation) also teaches that a believer can commit suicide and still be saved.

He says, I quote: "At the trial, MacArthur, 45, is seeking to clarify his church’s teaching on suicide. “It’s not only a sin, it’s illegal,” he says. “But we teach that even if a believer takes his own life, the Lord will still receive him into His presence.”

Source:
Fundamentalist Clergymen Face Charges of 'Malpractice' When a Parishioner Turns to Suicide

John MacArthur says that a person can take the mark of the beast and they can still be saved afterwards. Listen to this audio clip by him here:

https://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/audio/macarthur-take-mark.mp3

John MacArthur says, ".. sin does not result in spiritual death for the believer ... (The MacArthur Study Bible, p. 1927, comment on James 1:15)"

I believe "Puritans / Presbyterians / Calvinists" have a dark history of putting to death witches, fornicators, and those who taught false teachings. They were not much into laughing, or in enjoying things, either. Of course this not how Calvinism exists today, but my experience with Calvinists on various Christian forums has not been so nice. Granted, there may be a few nice ones out there. But I have not really encountered them. This does not mean that Calvinists cannot do good and beneficial things for the Lord. Gotquestions is a Calvinist website that really has a lot of good articles except on the topic of "Sin and Salvation." Both "Time Changer," and "Play the Flute" are amazing Christian films created and directed by a Calvinist. I did not originally know the director was a Calvinist until I talked with him personally on the phone. In fact, if you were to tell me that the director was Calvinist, I would have said you were nuts. No Calvinist teaching is pushed in these films at all, and they are some of the best Christian films out there that inspires a person to want to accept the Lord, and to follow Jesus.

While these truly are amazing Christian films, a word of caution in following the director in everything he says, writes, or puts forth as entertainment in the future. For he is a Calvinist, and I don't believe Calvinism is even remotely biblical. If he keeps with the same kind of entertainment, I think a believer will turn out to be fine, but if pushes his Calvinism in the future more publicly, then I probably not recommend his movies anymore. I believe Calvinism is one of the core fundamental problems that we see in the church today.

 

[sweetycakes1]

“You are truly my disciples, IF you remain faithful to my teachings” (John 8:31)

Being faithful to Jesus and His teachings means obeying His commandments!

“IF anyone loves Me, he will obey My word; and My Father will love him,
and We will come to him and make Our home with him.” (John 14:23)

“… you have no obligation to do what your sinful nature urges you to do.
For IF you live by its dictates, you will die (eternally).” (Romans 8:12-13)

“IF through the power of the Holy Spirit you put to death the deeds
of your sinful nature, you will live (eternally).” (Romans 8:13)

“It is this Good News (the gospel) that saves you,
IF you continue to believe the message I told you” (1 Corinthians 15:1-2)

“And let us not grow weary while doing good,
for in due season we shall reap (eternal life),
IF we do not lose heart.” (Galatians 6:9)

“He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death,
to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight —
IF indeed you continue in the faith …
and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel” (Colossians 1:22-23)

“IF we endure, we shall also reign with Him.” (2 Timothy 2:12)

If we endure, faithfully obeying Jesus and His commandments, we're good to go!

“So we must listen very carefully to the truth we have heard,
or we may drift away from it … every act of disobedience was punished.
So what makes us think we can escape,
IF we ignore this great salvation” (Hebrews 2:1-3)

“And we are God’s house, IF we keep our courage and
remain confident in our hope in Christ” (Hebrews 3:6)

“IF we are faithful to the end, trusting God just as firmly as when we first believed,
we will share in all that belongs to Christ.” (Hebrews 3:14)

“IF you practice these qualities you will never fall.
For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance
into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.” (2 Peter 1:10-11)

“IF we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another,
and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.” (1 John 1:7)

“IF we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us of our sins
and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” (1 John 1:9)

“We can be sure that we know Him, IF we obey His commandments.” (1 John 2:3)

These are most of the obvious CONDITIONAL verses (which have “IF” in them).
But, there are many other CONDITIONAL NT verses which have no “IF” in them.

These NT verses (plus many others which have been posted) PROVE:
Salvation is a process in which believers must co-operate with God!

Yet, there is no "IF" in the Greek language. LOL

 

[Hazelelponi]

And Lord Jesus stand before you and declare that
you refused to do what you were told to do!

You are totally against many NT verses, which say that
you are accountable to do your part in your salvation.
You are heading in the wrong direction, my friend.

You know, anyone can put their best foot forward to follow rules, and the more they try rule keeping the more they see they fall short every day, and then someone will do one of three things, look to Jesus and trust in His work, start excusing their sin and explaining it away as nothing, or decide they can't do this and leave the faith.

I chose faith in the finished work in Christ because I know what I am, and I know where my best efforts will lead, and I know where Jesus's led.

Faith, not in myself, but in Him. Anything I do, anything I attempt beyond that is because I love Him, which I do because He first loved me.

When you can't understand that, there's truly nothing to talk about because it truly is just that simple.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Yet, there is no "IF" in the Greek language. LOL

The English word “if” is translated from an actual Greek word that is a conditional particle.

G1437 - ean - Strong's Greek Lexicon (KJV)

So it is not like there is an added word in the sentence or anything.

Besides, God preserved His Word perfectly for all generations (See Psalms 12:6-7).

For the Lord our God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. God’s Word does not exist only in dead languages.