True saving faith is proven by passing all of these TESTS

Strong in Him

Great is thy faithfulness
Site Supporter
Mar 4, 2005
27,905
7,990
NW England
✟1,052,596.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
As usual, folks, we have those who refuse to take God at His word.
They refuse to be obedient to the words written to (and for) us!

I doubt it.
More like they challenge the selected verses posted by you that seem to promote a woks based salvation.

They refuse to RECONCILE all of the NT verses!
Which they must do ... in order to understand what it's all about.

That means you as well.
So how do you account for the following verses:
Philippians 1:6 - God began a good work in us and he will bring it to completion.
Philippians 2:13 - It is God who works in us, to will and to act.
Jude 24 - God is able to keep us from falling.
1 Corinthians 1:8 - God is able to keep us strong until the end.

Yes, of course we are told to remain in the vine, to stay united to Christ, to follow, and serve, him; but Scripture also says that it is God who keeps us safe, does his work in and through us, and can bring that good work to completion - not that we have to try our hardest to obey/do it all in our own strength or we've had it.
 
Upvote 0

Alain Valdivia

“Domine miserere nobis. Parce nos in Christo.”
Jul 9, 2018
94
46
22
Cape Coral
✟25,537.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
This sounds awfully Pelagian. There is no disagreement between me and you on this issue if you agree with the following statements:
1. We can’t obey God in such a way as to please Him, unless He first draws us to obedience by His grace and it’s only this grace of God that causes us to obey.
2. That our good works before salvation do not merit the initial grace of justification, but that it is entirely the initiative of God to convert us. “CANON 18. That grace is not preceded by merit. Recompense is due to good works if they are performed; but grace, to which we have no claim, precedes them, to enable them to be done.”
3. That any good works we do after our initial justification come not from ourselves, but from the grace of God infused into us because of the merits of Christ. (Look at Canon 18 above).
4. That the love that entices us to obey is in itself the gift of God and given graciously without regard to our merit, “God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.” (‭‭Romans‬ ‭5:5‬). “CANON 25. Concerning the love with which we love God. It is wholly a gift of God to love God. He who loves, even though he is not loved, allowed himself to be loved. We are loved, even when we displease him, so that we might have means to please him. For the Spirit, whom we love with the Father and the Son, has poured into our hearts the love of the Father and the Son (Rom. 5:5).”
5. That when God rewards our good works He is, as St. Augustine said, “crowning His own gifts.” Because the very works He rewards have their source in God.
6. That grace is not only the divine favor of God, but also the power given to us gratuitously in order that we may avoid sin and that it may not reign over us.
Here are some things that should be wholly rejected as utterly abhorrent to piety and true doctrine:
1. That grace is simply the power to strive against sin, and not the divine favor of God. “CANON II.-If any one saith, that the grace of God, through Jesus Christ, is given only for this, that man may be able more easily to live justly, and to merit eternal life, as if, by free will without grace, he were able to do both, though hardly indeed and with difficulty; let him be anathema.”
2. That we can earn our salvation or entrance into glory through our own efforts and works through the preaching of the Law or of following one’s conscience. “CANON I.-If any one saith, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema.”
If I have said anything that is wrong or incorrect, please let me know and may God have mercy on me.
 
Upvote 0

BCsenior

Still an evangelist
Aug 31, 2017
2,980
715
British Columbia
✟72,426.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
If I have said anything that is wrong or incorrect,
please let me know and may God have mercy on me.
Yes, you have the correct and acceptable heart attitude.

Most on Christian forums post their personal feelings and opinions
without having seriously considered the many dozens of NT verses
which threaten and warn about the possibility of losing salvation!

Ergo, they are preaching a false doctrine.
And do they care if God has mercy on them?
 
Upvote 0

1213

Disciple of Jesus
Jul 14, 2011
3,661
1,117
Visit site
✟146,199.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
...
These NT verses (plus many others which have been posted) PROVE:
Salvation is a process in which believers must co-operate with God!

I think you have good points. But I think you have misunderstood what salvation and saving means. Saving is from the judgment that would come because of sin. One can not do anything to gain salvation, which means forgiveness of sins. Forgiveness is freely offered for all people. And if one receives it, it is enough to be saved from the judgment. The scriptures you quoted apply after one is saved from the judgment. If person after he has been saved, returns to sin, the forgiveness is not useful, because there is a new sin. That is why it is said:

"Neither do I condemn you. Go your way. From now on, sin no more."
John 8:11

… Sin no more, so that nothing worse happens to you."
John 5:14

After one is saved from the judgment, there should happen change so that person becomes righteous, because eternal life is for righteous:

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

For I tell you that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, there is no way you will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.
Mat. 5:20

So, I think people should not mix salvation to getting eternal life. Salvation gives new beginning, but if one doesn’t go on righteous path after that, it is not useful to have a new beginning. Also, this doesn’t mean you have to do good works to earn eternal life. It means, one must be righteous, and if one is righteous, he freely wants to do what is good and right, because he understands it is good and wants good and right to happen.
 
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,508
7,861
...
✟1,194,203.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
To all:

Problem is that most today teach you can sin and still be saved on some level. They may say we may strive to obey God after they are saved by God's grace, but they also feel they will always sin as a matter of fact, too. They obviously believed they are saved while they sin a little, too (Hence, why they falsely believe they are saved by having a belief alone on Jesus for salvation). Unfortunately, they are turning God's grace into a license for committing a little bit of sin. Justification of sin and evil can take different forms or levels. I believe that even those sins that do not lead to spiritual death should be put away out of our lives. Most do not believe that you can even overcome grievous sins (like lying, hating, lusting, or cussing, etc.) that God warns that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God (Matthew 5:19-21) (Galatians 5:19-21) (1 John 3:15) (Revelation 21:8). Surely Jesus was not kidding around when He said to those believers who did wonderful works in His name to depart from Him because they also worked iniquity or sin in Matthew 7:23. But hey; If you feel like you want to take a chance with your eternal soul over a little bit of sin in this life, knock yourself out. See if that really is worth it in the end. My soul is too precious to play games with. I will walk the narrow path or way and not the wide gate path that everyone is on.
 
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,508
7,861
...
✟1,194,203.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
“You are truly my disciples, IF you remain faithful to my teachings” (John 8:31)

Being faithful to Jesus and His teachings means obeying His commandments!

IF anyone loves Me, he will obey My word; and My Father will love him,
and We will come to him and make Our home with him.” (John 14:23)


“… you have no obligation to do what your sinful nature urges you to do.
For
IF you live by its dictates, you will die (eternally).” (Romans 8:12-13)

IF through the power of the Holy Spirit you put to death the deeds
of your sinful nature, you will live (eternally).” (Romans 8:13)


“It is this Good News (the gospel) that saves you,
IF you continue to believe the message I told you” (1 Corinthians 15:1-2)

“And let us not grow weary while doing good,
for in due season we shall reap (eternal life),

IF we do not lose heart.” (Galatians 6:9)

“He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death,
to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight —

IF indeed you continue in the faith …
and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel” (Colossians 1:22-23)


IF we endure, we shall also reign with Him.” (2 Timothy 2:12)

If we endure, faithfully obeying Jesus and His commandments, we're good to go!


“So we must listen very carefully to the truth we have heard,
or we may drift away from it … every act of disobedience was punished.
So what makes us think we can escape,
IF we ignore this great salvation” (Hebrews 2:1-3)


“And we are God’s house, IF we keep our courage and
remain confident in our hope in Christ” (Hebrews 3:6)


IF we are faithful to the end, trusting God just as firmly as when we first believed,
we will share in all that belongs to Christ.” (Hebrews 3:14)


IF you practice these qualities you will never fall.
For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance
into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.” (2 Peter 1:10-11)


IF we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another,
and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.” (1 John 1:7)


IF we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us of our sins
and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” (1 John 1:9)

“We can be sure that we know Him,
IF we obey His commandments.” (1 John 2:3)

These are most of the obvious CONDITIONAL verses (which have “IF” in them).
But, there are many other CONDITIONAL NT verses which have no “IF” in them.


These NT verses (plus many others which have been posted) PROVE:
Salvation is a process in which believers must co-operate with God!

I agree. Salvation is conditional. Salvation is also two fold. Salvation is God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ (and seeking His mercy) and Sanctification (Living holy unto the Lord).

Jesus saves.

Both in Grace and in Sanctification.

But we have to cooperate with the Lord's plan of salvation for our lives.
GOD is not going to force salvation upon us.
 
Upvote 0

SeventyOne

Well-Known Member
May 2, 2015
4,675
3,188
✟167,098.00
Country
United States
Faith
Calvary Chapel
Marital Status
Married
To all:

Problem is that most today teach you can sin and still be saved on some level. They may say we may strive to obey God after they are saved by God's grace, but they also feel they will always sin as a matter of fact, too. They obviously believed they are saved while they sin a little, too (Hence, why they falsely believe they are saved by having a belief alone on Jesus for salvation). Unfortunately, they are turning God's grace into a license for committing a little bit of sin. Justification of sin and evil can take different forms or levels. I believe that even those sins that do not lead to spiritual death should be put away out of our lives. Most do not believe that you can even overcome grievous sins (like lying, hating, lusting, or cussing, etc.) that God warns that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God (Matthew 5:19-21) (Galatians 5:19-21) (1 John 3:15) (Revelation 21:8). Surely Jesus was not kidding around when He said to those believers who did wonderful works in His name to depart from Him because they also worked iniquity or sin in Matthew 7:23. But hey; If you feel like you want to take a chance with your eternal soul over a little bit of sin in this life, knock yourself out. See if that really is worth it in the end. My soul is too precious to play games with. I will walk the narrow path or way and not the wide gate path that everyone is on.

Jesus didn't tell any believers to depart from Him. A fundamental flaw in the premise.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Danthemailman
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,508
7,861
...
✟1,194,203.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Jesus didn't tell any believers to depart from Him. A fundamental flaw in the premise.

Yes He did. They were believers because they did wonderful works in His name. Unbelievers do not do works in Christ's name and cast out devil's in his name, etc. They had a belief in Jesus, but they did not have a correct faith or belief in Jesus. Mormons believe in Jesus, but they believe in the wrong way about Jesus. If folks think their version of Jesus allowed for us to think that we can sin and still be saved, they are preaching another Jesus (just like the Mormon Jesus that does not exist). Jesus never justified sin and or evil. Jesus warned us against how sin can destroy our souls.
 
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,508
7,861
...
✟1,194,203.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Jesus didn't tell any believers to depart from Him. A fundamental flaw in the premise.

Besides, Matthew 7:23 is not the only verse that warns believers not to work iniquity or sin otherwise they will not make it into God's Kingdom. Also, check Matthew 13:41-42, too. This passage is unmistakable in what it says. For according to Matthew 13:41-42: Christ will send forth His angels and they will gather out of HIS KINGDOM all things that offend (i.e. those people who make others to sin), and those who work iniquity (sin or lawlessness) and they will be cast into the furnace of fire (i.e. the Lake of Fire).
 
Upvote 0

SeventyOne

Well-Known Member
May 2, 2015
4,675
3,188
✟167,098.00
Country
United States
Faith
Calvary Chapel
Marital Status
Married
Yes He did. They were believers because they did wonderful works in His name. Unbelievers do not do works in Christ's name and cast out devil's in his name, etc. They had a belief in Jesus, but they did not have a correct faith or belief in Jesus. Mormons believe in Jesus, but they believe in the wrong way about Jesus. If folks think their version of Jesus allowed for us to think that we can sin and still be saved, they are preaching another Jesus (just like the Mormon Jesus that does not exist). Jesus never justified sin and or evil. Jesus warned us against how sin can destroy our souls.

So, when you say they were believers and Jesus said of them He never knew them, you are saying there are believers whom Jesus has no knowledge of? Essentially, He doesn't know who is His and who isn't.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Danthemailman
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,508
7,861
...
✟1,194,203.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
So, when you say they were believers and Jesus said of them He never knew them, you are saying there are believers whom Jesus has no knowledge of? Essentially, He doesn't know who is His and who isn't.

A person can believe in Jesus and do things for Jesus, but that does not mean they have a correct faith in the right version of Jesus. There are false versions of Jesus that people believe in.

"For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him." (2 Corinthians 11:4).

This is one possible reason why He never knew them. Another possibility as to why Jesus never knew them is possibly in the fact that their previous righteousness was no longer remembered as a part of their committing sin again (according to Ezekiel 18:24). God does not remember them anymore because God associates with the righteous and not the wicked and Ezekiel 18:24 says God will no longer remember a person's righteous deeds if they go back to their sin again. It will be as if He never knew them because there is nothing righteous anymore to remember about them.
 
Upvote 0

SeventyOne

Well-Known Member
May 2, 2015
4,675
3,188
✟167,098.00
Country
United States
Faith
Calvary Chapel
Marital Status
Married
A person can believe in Jesus and do things for Jesus, but that does not mean they have a correct faith in the right version of Jesus. There are false versions of Jesus that people believe in.

"For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him." (2 Corinthians 11:4).

This is one possible reason why He never knew them. Another possibility as to why Jesus never knew them is possibly in the fact that their previous righteousness was no longer remembered as a part of their committing sin again (according to Ezekiel 18:24). God does not remember them anymore because God associates with the righteous and not the wicked and Ezekiel 18:24 says God will no longer remember a person's righteous deeds if they go back to their sin again.


Not remembering doesn't mean He never knew you.

Like it or not, He's telling people who are relying on their own works to depart from Him.

I have yet to see the verse where He tells those who trusted solely on His completed work on the cross to depart from Him, just those trying to win Him over by works. Kind of funny that way.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: Danthemailman
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,508
7,861
...
✟1,194,203.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Not remembering doesn't mean He never knew you.

Yes, it is. God not remembering righteousness means that there is no righteous deeds to credit to their account anymore. God does not associate with the wicked but He destroys them.

Like it or not, He's telling people who are relying on their own works to depart from Him.

They work "iniquity" is in context to doing evil, and not a defense of Belief Alone-ism. First, Jesus did not say it was their works that He condemned, but it was their iniquity. Iniquity is sin. Second, the context supports that it was their sin or lack of true good fruit (Which was the problem).

#1. In Matthew 7:21, Jesus says "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." (Note: The will of God (i.e. the Father) is our Sanctification - See: 1 Thessalonians 4:3). Just saying, "Lord, Lord" suggests "Belief Alone-ism" and that you have to do more than just say "Lord, Lord."

#2. In Matthew 7:18-20, Jesus says, "A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them." Fruit are deeds. (Note: John the baptist says bring forth fruit worthy of repentance (Luke 3:8), and Acts of the Apostles 26:20 says bring forth deeds befitting of repentance). Jesus says that a tree that does not bring forth good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire in verse 19 (Matthew 7:19). Jesus says in verse 20, by their fruits (deeds) you will know them. By their deeds we will know them (i.e. in the fact that they justify sin). Just go back to Matthew 5:28-30. Jesus warns against how looking upon a woman in lust will cause one to be cast bodily into hellfire. Look back at Matthew 6:15. Jesus says those who will not forgive will not be forgiven by the Father. So the warning against sin is the context of Matthew 7. Matthew 7 is a part of the Sermon on the Mount.

#3. In Matthew 7:26-27, Jesus says, "And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it." Everyone who hears the words of Jesus and does them not is like a fool who built his house upon the sand and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house. Doesn't sound like Belief Alone-ism to me. On the contrary, it sounds like the exact opposite of that. Jesus says anyone who does not do what He says is like a fool.

Their good works was not the problem, it was merely a cloak or covering to their hidden sin or lawlessness. Jesus said, "Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves." (Matthew 7:15).

Sheep are generally innocent animals and they will not harm you. Wolves can be dangerous because they can hurt and kill people (i.e. It is one's behavior that is the concern here). Many in the churches today appear to be for holy living but they really are just pretending. They have a false cloak of holiness to them in that they think they are good, when in reality, they justify sin.

Peter says, "But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you,..." (2 Peter 2:1), and he continues to say about these false prophets, "Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin;" (2 Peter 2:14).

You said:
I have yet to see the verse where He tells those who trusted solely on His completed work on the cross to depart from Him, just those trying to win Him over by works. Kind of funny that way.

There is no verse or passage in Scripture that says we are to trust in the finished work of the cross alone. Not even the belief in the gospel within 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 teaches that. Believing in the gospel is believing in His death, burial, and resurrection. But there is also an obedience to the gospel, too (See: 2 Thessalonians 1:8). Obeying the gospel is defined for us in Romans 6:4-7, Galatians 5:24, Matthew 16:24. Belief in the gospel is Justification; Obeying the Gospel is Sanctification.

We need both Grace and Sanctification for salvation. We cannot have one without the other. Grace comes first, and then comes Sanctification. Anything else is turning God's grace into a license for immorality (Which is what Jude 1:4 warns us against).
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

SeventyOne

Well-Known Member
May 2, 2015
4,675
3,188
✟167,098.00
Country
United States
Faith
Calvary Chapel
Marital Status
Married
Yes, it is. God not remembering righteousness means that there is no righteous deeds to credit to their account anymore. God does not associate with the wicked but He destroys them.

No. You're just altering the scripture to make it mean what you want in to mean in this regard.

They work "iniquity" is in context to doing evil, and not a defense of Belief Alone-ism. First, Jesus did not say it was their works that He condemned, but it was their iniquity. Iniquity is sin. Second, the context supports that it was their sin or lack fo true good fruit (Which was the problem).

#1. In Matthew 7:21, Jesus says "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." (Note: The will of God (i.e. the Father) is our Sanctification - See: 1 Thessalonians 4:3). Just saying, "Lord, Lord" suggests "Belief Alone-ism" and that you have to do more than just say "Lord, Lord."

Because not everyone who says such things actually belong to Him. Paul tells us that the Father has laid out good works for us to walk in once we are born again, James gives another perspective to let us know if we are walking in these good works, we know our faith is genuine. True believers have works, but the works are not what created a true believer. You are completely backwards.


#2. In Matthew 7:18-20, Jesus says, "A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them." Fruit are deeds. (Note: John the baptist says bring forth fruit worthy of repentance (Luke 3:8), and Acts of the Apostles 26:20 says bring forth deeds befitting of repentance). Jesus says that a tree that does not bring forth good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire in verse 19 (Matthew 7:19). Jesus says in verse 20, by their fruits (deeds) you will know them. By their deeds we will know them (i.e. in the fact that they justify sin). Just go back to Matthew 5:28-30. Jesus warns against how looking upon a woman in lust will cause one to be cast bodily into hellfire. Look back at Matthew 6:15. Jesus says those who will not forgive will not be forgiven by the Father. So the warning against sin is the context of Matthew 7. Matthew 7 is a part of the Sermon on the Mount.

This doesn't help your position at all. A good tree cannot bear evil fruit. Therefore, it would never be in a position to be cast into the fire. Your position would have good trees begin to bear evil fruit. Once again, you are completely backwards.

Their good works was not the problem, it was merely a cloak or covering to their hidden sin or lawlessness. Jesus said, "Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves." (Matthew 7:15).

Like I've been saying, they weren't believers.

Long story short, I truly hope you who are relying on yourselves to be saved will see the truth before it's too late for you. It's really a sad and perplexing thing to see so many who confess the name of Christ fight against the sufficiency of His sacrifice. This group will be those stating 'Lord, we did all this stuff for you', because that's where their faith lies. Those who are His have good works naturally. Those who are not His, imitate good works.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: Danthemailman
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,508
7,861
...
✟1,194,203.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
No. You're just altering the scripture to make it mean what you want in to mean in this regard.

Not at all. I showed you the context and you are refusing to simply see it because of a preconceived belief that you would prefer to see because it is more comforting.

In Matthew 7:23, Jesus mentions "iniquity" as being the cause of the problem for those believers who did wonderful works in His name.

According to the Bible:
  • Iniquity is sin.
  • Iniquity is breaking God's commands.
"And if a soul sin, and commit any of these things which are forbidden to be done by the commandments of the LORD; though he wist it not, yet is he guilty, and shall bear his iniquity." (Leviticus 5:17).

"Because he hath despised the word of the LORD, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him." (Numbers 15:31).

Iniquity is never described as not trusting in the finished work of Christ alone while one ignores their sin or does not worry about them so much. That would be an invention that exists only in the mind of Belief Alone Proponents.

Because not everyone who says such things actually belong to Him. Paul tells us that the Father has laid out good works for us to walk in once we are born again, James gives another perspective to let us know if we are walking in these good works, we know our faith is genuine. True believers have works, but the works are not what created a true believer. You are completely backwards. This doesn't help your position at all. A good tree cannot bear evil fruit. Therefore, it would never be in a position to be cast into the fire. Your position would have good trees begin to bear evil fruit. Once again, you are completely backwards.

Again, your not getting it. The whole point Jesus was making was not Belief Alone-ism. Jesus said a good tree cannot bring forth bad fruit and a good tree cannot bring forth good fruit. Jesus talked about wolves in sheep clothing as false prophets. A false prophet who is a wolf in sheep's clothing means they are in disguise. They are hiding something. Meaning, those who did works in Christ's name and were told to depart from Jesus appeared to be followers of Christ, but they really were not followers of Christ because they worked iniquity, lawlessness, or sin.

"Secure in their Sin Salvationists" don't believe in truly doing good works always because they believe 1 John 1:8 makes room for the believer will always bring forth evil fruit or sin, too. This is the problem Jesus had with those believers in Matthew 7:23. They did good works, but they also worked iniquity or sin.

You said:
Like I've been saying, they weren't believers.

They were pretenders in retrospect of the truth or the real Jesus. But they deceived themselves that they were genuine followers of Christ. I doubt most who teach another Jesus believe they are following a false Jesus. They convinced themselves of the lie of another Jesus as being true.

Long story short, I truly hope you who are relying on yourselves to be saved will see the truth before it's too late for you.

While we are to have faith in Christ's blood for salvation (Romans 3:25), we also need to "walk in the light" in order for the blood of Jesus Christ to cleanse us from all sin. "Walking in the light" = Loving your brother according to 1 John 2:9-11. For he that does not love his brother is not of God (1 John 3:10).

You said:
It's really a sad and perplexing thing to see so many who confess the name of Christ fight against the sufficiency of His sacrifice. This group will be those stating 'Lord, we did all this stuff for you', because that's where their faith lies. Those who are His have good works naturally. Those who are not His, imitate good works.

First, just yesterday, I attended a church where the Pastor preached a sermon that implied good works and obedience and yet there was no mention of any grace or calling upon the name of the Lord for salvation. Surely this is wrong. We cannot be saved by Sanctification first. Neither can Sanctification be the foundation of our faith, either. We are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace. No doubt about it. If a believer stumbles on rare occasion they do not do a good deed to offset that sin. They go to God's grace by confessing of their sin to Jesus to be forgiven of it. For 1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sin, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sin and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (cf. with 1 John 2:1).

God's grace is what makes a person to love and do good. We see this with the woman who could not stop kissing Jesus's feet. She was forgiven of her many past sins and as a result, she was naturally thankful (Which reflected in her behavior). She did not attempt to justify sin but she simply loved the Lord.

Second, the good work that a believer does is ultimately the Lord working in a person and it is not their own work alone. So no believer can actually boast in their own works because there is no such thing. All good comes from God. Jesus says we can do nothing without Him (John 15:5). Philippians 2:13 says, "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." Paul says we have the mind of Christ (1 Corinthians 2:16). Did Christ ever justify sin or in being unfruitful? Never. Jesus is our example.

"For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:" (1 Peter 2:21-22).

But make no mistake. Grace and Sanctification is God's plan of salvation. Salvation begins with God's grace, and then we enter into the Sanctification Process. There are three verses in the Bible that essentially say we need both God's grace, and Sanctification as a part of salvation (See: 2 Thessalonians 2:13, James 2:24, and John 5:24). It's not all one or the other. We need both. Yet, most churches today focus on the wrong extreme of God's grace. Some (like the church I encountered yesterday) focus solely just on the Sanctification Process. That is not correct, either. We need a healthy balance of both God's grace and Sanctification.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,508
7,861
...
✟1,194,203.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
@SeventyOne

Again, Peter says, "But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you,..." (2 Peter 2:1), and he continues to say about these false prophets, "Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin;" (2 Peter 2:14).

This does not appear to align with your belief here.
 
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,508
7,861
...
✟1,194,203.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
God's grace is by faith (Ephesians 2:8), and Sanctification is by faith (Romans 10:17 says faith comes by hearing the Word of God, and the Word we are to hear includes instruction in righteousness in 2 Timothy 3:16-17, a Word that tells us that faith shows itself by works in James 2:18, a Word that says for us to put to death the misdeeds of the body by the Spirit in Romans 8:13). The work of God's grace is a work of God (Ephesians 2:8-9, John 6:29), and Sanctification is a work of God done through our lives (Philippians 2:13, John 15:5, etc.) (Note: This is done under our free will cooperation). However, what is important to point out here is that all praise, and thanks goes unto the Lord. All our trust goes unto the Lord and His goodness. So there is no boasting in our own work as per Ephesians 2:9.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

SeventyOne

Well-Known Member
May 2, 2015
4,675
3,188
✟167,098.00
Country
United States
Faith
Calvary Chapel
Marital Status
Married
@SeventyOne

Again, Peter says, "But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you,..." (2 Peter 2:1), and he continues to say about these false prophets, "Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin;" (2 Peter 2:14).

This does not appear to align with your belief here.

The false among the believers are those who cannot cease from sin. They aren't true believers. It aligns precisely with everything I've said.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Danthemailman
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,508
7,861
...
✟1,194,203.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
The false among the believers are those who cannot cease from sin. They aren't true believers. It aligns precisely with everything I've said.

So you don't believe 1 John 1:8 teaches that a believer will always sin in this life (i.e. They cannot cease from sin)?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

SeventyOne

Well-Known Member
May 2, 2015
4,675
3,188
✟167,098.00
Country
United States
Faith
Calvary Chapel
Marital Status
Married
So you don't believe 1 John 1:8 teaches that a believer will always sin in this life (i.e. They cannot cease from sin)?

The same person who teaches a believer will sin, contrasts that with a false believer who lives a lifestyle of sin (1 John 3:4). There is a difference. Might do you some good to realize that difference so you don't keep conflating the characteristics of believers and nonbelievers, because right now you are pushing a false gospel, something Paul claims you should be cursed for doing.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Danthemailman
Upvote 0