True Justification, works of the Law of Moses, & Conditional Security

[Bible Highlighter]

I've shown you many times, possibly you have a hard time distinguishing what the moral law is, as the new chap does who entered the cobversation

I have no idea what you are talking about. Please refresh my memory.

 

[expos4ever]

I've shown you many times, possibly you have a hard time distinguishing what the moral law is, as the new chap does who entered the cobversation

Just so I understand you, what precisely do you mean when you refer to the "moral law"?

The Jew had only the Law of Moses as a formal code. Are you referring to some universal sense of morality that God endows all people with something like Paul is saying here:

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

 

[stuart lawrence]

The ten commandments are referred to as the moral law and are distinguished from the mosaic law in this respect by every christian I know.

 

[stuart lawrence]

You've had plenty

I have no idea what you are talking about. Please refresh my memory.

of time to answer tobeloved questions haven't you, for you have written a lotof posts since she asked you the questions.
I would suggest All of grace by Charles spurgeon. Every christian needs to understand the justification/sanctification process.
Just trying and failing to perform perfect all the time does not bring growth. For many it just brings a hard nosed attitude of excusing your own sin while preaching a message of the letter you cannot live up to in your own life.
I don't expect you to listen to me, but you would help yourself if you could humble yourself to read possibly the best book ever written on the subject. What have you to lose?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You've had plenty
of time to answer tobeloved questions haven't you, for you have written a lotof posts since she asked you the questions.
I would suggest All of grace by Charles spurgeon. Every christian needs to understand the justification/sanctification process.
Just trying and failing to perform perfect all the time does not bring growth. For many it just brings a hard nosed attitude of excusing your own sin while preaching a message of the letter you cannot live up to in your own life.
I don't expect you to listen to me, but you would help yourself if you could humble yourself to read possibly the best book ever written on the subject. What have you to lose?

I am not going to read a book that I know to be blatantly false or that would align with your wrong view of Justification / Sanctification. Sorry, it's just not going to happen (Anymore than you would read a book on Conditional Security).


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[Bible Highlighter]

The ten commandments are referred to as the moral law and are distinguished from the mosaic law in this respect by every christian I know.

Any Command that is based on loving God or loving others (naturally) and does not involve any kind of ritual or ceremony or special observance on a particular day is a moral law of some kind.

If you were to look thru the 613 Commands in the Old Covenant, you would be able to spot more than just the 9 out of the 10 Commandments that are based on morality or in loving God and others (without a ceremony, etc.).

http://www.hisglory.us/DOCUMENTS/613_biblical_laws.htm


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[stuart lawrence]

I am not going to read a book that I know to be blatantly false or that would align with your wrong view of Justification / Sanctification. Sorry, it's just not going to happen (Anymore than you would read a book on Conditional Security).


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It is your loss. I know exactly where you are at for ad I keep telling you i used to have your views. When I look back to that time in my life I shudder. I never knew the true gospel message of grace. Bot understanding justification/sanctification will greatly reduce your effectiveness ad a witness

 

[expos4ever]

The ten commandments are referred to as the moral law and are distinguished from the mosaic law in this respect by every christian I know.

Well, I think scholars will disagree with this. But terminology is just that - terminology.

Let me make sure my position is clear: The "law" in Romans 7 is the Law of Moses, as understood to include, but not be limited to, the 10 commandments.

 

[expos4ever]

Any Command that is based on loving God or loving others (naturally) and does not involve any kind of ritual or ceremony or special observance on a particular day is a moral law of some kind.

If you were to look thru the 613 Commands in the Old Covenant, you would be able to spot more than just the 9 out of the 10 Commandments that are based on morality or in loving God and others (without a ceremony, etc.).

http://www.hisglory.us/DOCUMENTS/613_biblical_laws.htm


...

I think that Paul treats the written code - including the 10 commandments but also everything else - as "the Law" as in the "Law of Moses". I think unnecessary complication is added by trying to characterize each of the 613 as "moral", or "ceremonial", or whatever. I suggest there is zero evidence that Paul ever distinguished such categories in his treatment of the law - he treated "the law" as a singular concept.

 

[stuart lawrence]

I think that Paul treats the written code - including the 10 commandments but also everything else - as "the Law" as in the "Law of Moses". I think unnecessary complication is added by trying to characterize each of the 613 as "moral", or "ceremonial", or whatever. I suggest there is zero evidence that Paul ever distinguished such categories in his treatment of the law - he treated "the law" as a singular concept.

In view of what you have written, when Paul states Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness, (rom10:4) would you accept he means the whole law, not just parts of it?

 

[expos4ever]

In view of what you have written, when Paul states Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness, (rom10:4) would you accept he means the whole law, not just parts of it?

The whole law.

 

[stuart lawrence]

The whole law.

Well thank you. I agree with you, and that is correct. For it is one whole law. However, I myself, as most other christians do, am happy to refer to the ten commandments as the moral law, without seperating the one whole law.
I hope you may be able to convince Jason Christ is the end of the whole law unto righteousness. He refuses to believe me

 

[expos4ever]

Well thank you. I agree with you, and that is correct. For it is one whole law. However, I myself, as most other christians do, am happy to refer to the ten commandments as the moral law, without seperating the one whole law.
I hope you may be able to convince Jason Christ is the end of the whole law unto righteousness. He refuses to believe me

Well, not to be disagreeable, but based on a really quick skim of some his posts, I am inclined to agree with Jason in general terms. I suspect, but only suspect, that you see him as endorsing "works-righteousness" and you would read Romans 10:4 as undermining that view. Well, I think things are more complicated, but I am happy to discuss.

 

[stuart lawrence]

You have said you believe Christ is the end of the whole law unto righteousness. Jason is adamant Christ is the end of the mosaic law unto righteousness BUT NOT what is termed the moral law, which would include the ten commandments

 

[expos4ever]

You have said you believe Christ is the end of the whole law unto righteousness. Jason is adamant Christ is the end of the mosaic law unto righteousness BUT NOT what is termed the moral law

I think we need to explore this deeper. Are you saying that Jason is saying that we need to "live good lives" in order to be ultimately justified and saved? If so, I agree with him. Please be assured - I am fully aware of the many teachings about justification by faith and I believe those statements too. Although my view is more complex than the following might imply, for the sake of brevity I will say that we need "good works" in the sense that these are evidence that we really do have faith. I believe Paul means exactly what he says when he writes this:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

 

[stuart lawrence]

I am not trying to put a rift between you and Jason. But you should be able to discern there a huge difference between believing Christ is the end of the whole law unto righteousness, and Christ is the end of the mosaic law minus the moral law unto righteousness. One thing Jason and i do agree on is that difference is immense. And it is!

 

[expos4ever]

I am not trying to put a rift between you and Jason. But you should be able to discern there a huge difference between believing Christ is the end of the whole law unto righteousness, and Christ is the end of the mosaic law minus the moral law unto righteousness. One thing Jason and i do agree on is that difference is immense. And it is!

I don't have time to get into this now, but I think there is something important you need to know so that you can understand my view. Hopefully tomorrow.

 

[stuart lawrence]

As long as you hold your view and Jason holds his view the gulf is immense.
Unless in reality you do not hold the view you state you do

 

[stuart lawrence]

I don't have time to get into this now, but I think there is something important you need to know so that you can understand my view. Hopefully tomorrow.

You cannot bridge jasons view and your own. Either you have his view or you don't. There isn't any wiggle room!

 

[Meowzltov]

The Jew had only the Law of Moses as a formal code. Are you referring to some universal sense of morality that God endows all people with something like Paul is saying here:

Moral Law: love your neighbor as yourself applied.