True Justification, works of the Law of Moses, & Conditional Security

[Bible Highlighter]

The penalty of sin brings great fear of sin, and fear of sin brings much allurement to sin
If I said to you. If you think of a pink rabbit God will cast you into hell , what is the first thought that would come into your head if you believe me? Therefore, if I said to you. If you covet God will cast you into hell , what is the first thought that would come into your mind if you believed me? Hence:
For sin shall not be your master, for you are not under law but under grace rom6:14

Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. Also Jesus said fear the one who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna (the Lake of Fire). Yes, perfect love casts out fear. But who is he that loves Jesus? Christ said those that love him, keep his Commandments. For the Scriptures say, whosoever keepeth his Word, verily the love of God is perfected (1 John 2:5). Also see 1 John 2:3-4.



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[stuart lawrence]

Fear of the Lord is beginning of wisdom. Also Jesus said fear the one who destroy both body and soul in Gehenna (the Lake of Fire). Yes, perfect love casts out fear. But who is he that loves Jesus? Christ said those that love him, keep his Commandments. For the Scriptures say, whosoever keepeth his Word, verily the love of God is perfected (1 John 2:5). Also see 1 John 2:3-4.



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Ah then you need grace ad much as everyone else Jason for you have admitted you do not keep all of Christs lteral commands, however:
Carry each others burdens and so fulfill the law of Christ gal6:2

 

[stuart lawrence]

They appeared outwardly religious before men but they did not behave righteously before God according to His Word. That is why they were hypocrites. They endorsed God’s Word to others, but they did not obey it.

How did Jesus say they did not obey it? On the inside. They didn't keep the law only they and God knew if it was broken. Yet they demanded others obey the whole law

 

[Bible Highlighter]

How did Jesus say they did not obey it? On the inside. They didn't keep the law only they and God knew if it was broken. Yet they demanded others obey the whole law

Not the Old Law. The Commands in the New Testament. Jesus said why do you call me Lord Lord and do not what I say?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

How did Jesus say they did not obey it? On the inside. They didn't keep the law only they and God knew if it was broken. Yet they demanded others obey the whole law

I am not telling people to obey something that I have not done myself. But even if I were to faulter or sin on my road to recovery in overcoming sin in this life, it does not change what is in the Word of God in regards to those who have already ceased from sin (1 Peter 4:1) (Galatians 5:24).


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[ToBeLoved]

You are not fooling anyone by such false claims. Again, explain to me how Romans 11:21-22 does not plainly say that we are to continue in his goodness otherwise we can be cut off like the Jews. For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed that he may not spare thee also.

But it is not about goodness.

It is about you. You SAY Christ lives in you and it IS CHRIST who does all the good things so you do not sin.

But then you say in the next sentence that the same CHRIST does NOT work in others.

So, is the problem Christ?

No, the problem is that you do not see Christ's power to work in all. The Holy Spirit's power to bring sinners to repentance.

You think you are so special.

You are just one of a million sinners. Nothing special about you Jason. Jesus loves those other sinners as much as He loves you.

Don't act like you are special because you do not sin (or claim as the Pharisee's did to be something they were not).

If Jesus is moving in you, you would not be so arrogant about it. Jesus does not produce arrogance. Man and their carnal nature produce pride and arrogance.

 

[EmSw]

You don't even see your own contradictions. But you are the one who 'wants to be' like Christ and your doing it, not Christ. I have no doubt. Your earning it.

I'm curious, how does anything get done if he doesn't do it? How does Christ get it done, if does nothing? How does he help others if he doesn't do it?

 

[ToBeLoved]

I'm curious, how does anything get done if he doesn't do it? How does Christ get it done, if does nothing? How does he help others if he doesn't do it?

That is not my words. Those are Jason's words. He says that Christ is his strength, but not others.

That's the contradiction.

 

[EmSw]

That is not my words. Those are Jason's words. He says that Christ is his strength, but not others.

That's the contradiction.

Maybe Jason will answer.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

But it is not about goodness.

It is about you. You SAY Christ lives in you and it IS CHRIST who does all the good things so you do not sin.

But then you say in the next sentence that the same CHRIST does NOT work in others.

So, is the problem Christ?

No, the problem is that you do not see Christ's power to work in all. The Holy Spirit's power to bring sinners to repentance.

You think you are so special.

You are just one of a million sinners. Nothing special about you Jason. Jesus loves those other sinners as much as He loves you.

Don't act like you are special because you do not sin (or claim as the Pharisee's did to be something they were not).

If Jesus is moving in you, you would not be so arrogant about it. Jesus does not produce arrogance. Man and their carnal nature produce pride and arrogance.

A person has to surrender to Christ. Then Christ works in them. God is not going to force salvation upon someone. If they desire to stop sinning and call upon him and yield to Him, then Christ can operate in their lives. We still have free will to choose God or not to choose Him.

As for Christ not loving sinners: Nowhere did I ever say that. I believe Christ loves the person but hates the sin. For he takes no pleasure in the destruction of the wicked. However, God is holy and He is not a respecter of persons. God cannot condone anyone's sin.

Matthew 6:15, 1 John 3:15, Galatians 5:19-21, Matthew 5:28-30, 1 Timothy 6:3-4 has not been abrogated in the New Testament as far as I know. You are going to have to show me where in the NT these Commands or Teachings been eliminated.


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[Bible Highlighter]

Maybe Jason will answer.

Those are her words and not mine. I believe Christ works in a person when they surrender to Him. God is not going to force us to believe and for us to surrender our will to Him. Once we yield to God, He then works in us.


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[Bible Highlighter]

Surrendering to God:

"Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded. Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness. Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up." (James 4:7-10).

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[Bible Highlighter]

Okay, so who does the "good work" in a believer's life? Is it God? Or is it the believer? Well, Scripture tells us that God (Christ) is the One who ultimately does the work within a believer.

Philippians 1:6
Philippians 1:11
Philippians 2:13
Philippians 4:13
1 Corinthians 15:10
Hebrews 12:1-2
Hebrews 13:21
Isaiah 26:12
1 John 4:12
Galatians 5:22-24 (cf. Matthew 7:16-18, Matthew 19:17)
John 15:5
Ezekiel 36:26-27

For that is why the 24 elders cast their crowns down before Jesus (Revelation 4:10). For the crowns they received for their good work was all the result of Christ working in them.

Yeah, but doesn't a believer do the work, too? Now, yes, it is true; A believer is created unto Christ Jesus for good works (Ephesians 2:10); And a believer is indeed held accountable by their "good works" here upon this Earth at a Judgment. But we must also realize that true believers are not ultimately doing these "good works" alone or of their own power, though. For in 1 Corinthians 15:10 Paul said that he labored more than all of his brethren, yet he said it was not him that labored but it was the grace of God that was within him. So true believer's are just choosing to allow God's "good work" to flow within them or not.


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[ToBeLoved]

Okay, so who does the "good work" in a believer's life? Is it God? Or is it the believer? Well, Scripture tells us that God (Christ) is the One who ultimately does the work within a believer.

Philippians 1:6
Philippians 1:11
Philippians 2:13
Philippians 4:13
1 Corinthians 15:10
Hebrews 12:1-2
Hebrews 13:21
Isaiah 26:12
1 John 4:12
Galatians 5:22-24 (cf. Matthew 7:16-18, Matthew 19:17)
John 15:5
Ezekiel 36:26-27

For that is why the 24 elders cast their crowns down before Jesus (Revelation 4:10). For the crowns they received for their good work was all the result of Christ working in them.

Yeah, but doesn't a believer do the work, too? Now, yes, it is true; A believer is created unto Christ Jesus for good works (Ephesians 2:10); And a believer is indeed held accountable by their "good works" here upon this Earth at a Judgment. But we must also realize that true believers are not ultimately doing these "good works" alone or of their own power, though. For in 1 Corinthians 15:10 Paul said that he labored more than all of his brethren, yet he said it was not him that labored but it was the grace of God that was within him. So true believer's are just choosing to allow God's "good work" to flow within them or not.


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I think that you discount God a lot. We have the mind of Christ. The Word written on our hearts and the Holy Spirit.

Your theology just does not add up however. This whole we must surrender our lives to God is the double-talk confusion that plays both sides.

Jesus says that we are to come to Him in faith. Yes, the Word does tell us that we are called to live our lives for God, but you use this as an excuse as to why people are not saved or why God is not working in their lives.

I think it is such a shame that you choose to believe this way. Anyways, I think I am finished with this conversation with you. It is frustrating the amount of or the lack of love that you have for others or even the amount of respect that you give to God.

There is really nothing left to say.

You have a pleasant day.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I think that you discount God a lot. We have the mind of Christ. The Word written on our hearts and the Holy Spirit.

Your theology just does not add up however. This whole we must surrender our lives to God is the double-talk confusion that plays both sides.

Jesus says that we are to come to Him in faith. Yes, the Word does tell us that we are called to live our lives for God, but you use this as an excuse as to why people are not saved or why God is not working in their lives.

I think it is such a shame that you choose to believe this way. Anyways, I think I am finished with this conversation with you. It is frustrating the amount of or the lack of love that you have for others or even the amount of respect that you give to God.

There is really nothing left to say.

You have a pleasant day.

God cooperates with man. God does not force salvation upon Him. Actually, I believe OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) is a license for sin on some level. Also, you have to deny about 90% of the New Testament in order to make OSAS work, too.

For Here is a Long List of Verses Refuting OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved):

Matthew 7:21-23 - Jesus only “knows” those who do Father God’s will; all others are practicing lawlessness.

Matthew 10:33 - Whoever denies Jesus before men He will also deny before His Father in heaven.

Matthew 12:31-32 - Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven. This means verbally cursing or speaking bad about the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 13:18-23 - 2 people types (no root, unfruitful) come to eternal life, and then return to the lost state.

Matthew 18:21-35, Mark 11:25-26 - Forgive men’s sins against you, or God won’t forgive your sins against Him.

Matthew 25:44-46 - Those who do not help even one needy soul will go into everlasting punishment.

Mark 8:35-36 - Whoever desires to save his (old) life, or gain the whole world, will lose his soul.

Mark 9:43-48 - Get rid of whatever causes you to sin; it will cause you to be cast into hell fire.

Mark 13:13 - But he who endures with his faith to the end (of his life) shall be saved eternally (Also see Matthew 10:22, Matthew 24:13, Colossians 1:22-23, 1 Timothy 4:16, Hebrews 10:35-39, Revelation 2:10)

Luke 9:23-25 - Whoever does not deny himself for Jesus’ sake will be destroyed (eternal death).

Luke 14:26-33 - Jesus warns prospective believers how difficult and costly it is to be His disciple… will they have enough to finish this life of placing Him above all else, bearing their crosses, etc.?

Luke 18:9-14 - Jesus taught that the man who was more justified was the one who humbled himself and cried out to God for mercy before God vs. the man who did not do so.

John 3:19, 20 - An important point about "The Condemnation" is that those who loved darkness hate the Light because they loved the pleasure of their own evil deeds, unless of course their deeds should be reproved (that is).

John 12:25 - He who loves his life in this world will lose it (eternal life) later.

John 15:1-6 - Christians who do not bear fruit (are not abiding in Jesus) are thrown into the fire.

John 17:3 - Eternal life is actually “knowing” Father God and Jesus Christ. Do you really know them?

Romans 1:29-32 - Anyone practicing such sins is deserving of death due to God’s wrath on unrighteousness.

Romans 2:5-11 - Wrath is coming to those who are unrighteously self-seeking and do not obey the truth.

Romans 6:15-23 - Be a slave of God and to righteousness for holiness, resulting in holiness and eternal life.

Romans 8:1-8 - Anyone who is carnally-minded (is living according to the flesh) will die spiritually.

Romans 8:12-13 - We are not debtors to the flesh; if we live according to the flesh, we will die.

Romans 11:20-22 - Fear unbelief, that if you do not continue to have faith, you will be cut off like the OT Jews.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 - Anyone practicing such sins is unrighteous, and will not inherit the kingdom of God.

1 Corinthians 15:2 - You are saved, if you hold fast to that word (the gospel) … unless you believed in vain.

2 Corinthians 7:10 - Godly sorrow over sin leads Christians to repent, which leads to salvation.

2 Corinthians 13:5 - Examine and test yourself to see if you are in the faith, unless you are reprobate.

Galatians 5:1-4 - Christians are warned: those who later have attempted to be justified by law (i.e. the Law of Moses), … have been estranged from Christ and have fallen from grace.

Galatians 5:19-21 - Anyone practicing such sins (the works of the flesh) will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Galatians 5:24 - Those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

Galatians 6:7-8 - Don't be deceived: sowing to the flesh reaps corruption, sowing to the Spirit reaps eternal life.

- (Continued) -

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[Bible Highlighter]

Ephesians 5:3-6 - Believers practicing such sins will not inherit God’s kingdom, but will incur the wrath of God.

Ephesians 5:25-27 - Jesus gave Himself for a glorious Church which will be sanctified, holy, without blemish.

Philippians 2:12-16 - Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, holding fast the word of life so that:
(1) you may become blameless, and
(2) Paul did not labor in vain concerning you.

Philippians 3:7-14 - Paul presses on to attaining the goal of gaining Christ, knowing Him, and being found in Him.

Colossians 1:21-29 - Jesus’ desires (and Paul labors to warn and teach) to present “holy and blameless” and “perfect in Christ Jesus” those who continue in faith, not moved away from the hope of the gospel.

Colossians 3:5-6 - Believers practicing such sins beware: the wrath of God will come upon sons of disobedience.

1 Timothy 4:1 - Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith.

1 Timothy 5:11-15 - Some younger widows are condemned; they cast off their first faith and turned after Satan.

1 Timothy 6:3-4 - Paul says that if any man teaches contrary to the words of Jesus and the doctrine of Christ is proud knowing nothing.

1 Timothy 6:9-14 - Greed and love of money drowns men in destruction and perdition; Instead, pursue godliness and lay hold on eternal life (and keep this command without blame).

1 Timothy 6:17-19 - Commands for the rich (yes, Christians) to follow, so they may lay hold on eternal life.

Titus 1:1-3 - Faith and knowledge of the truth lead to godliness, in the hope of eternal life.

Hebrews 2:1-4 - Warning about drifting away: how shall we escape, if we drift and neglect so great a salvation?

Hebrews 3:6 - We belong to Christ, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.

Hebrews 3:12-15 - Beware of an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God, being hardened through the deceitfulness of sin, for we are only partakers of Christ if we hold steadfast to the end.

Hebrews 3:17-19 - The OT Jews who sinned (did not obey) could not enter into God’s rest (the Promised Land).

Hebrews 4:1 - Let us fear lest any of us come short of entering God’s rest (God’s promise of salvation).

Hebrews 4:11 - Be diligent to enter into that rest, lest anyone fall according to the OT example of disobedience.

Hebrews 6:4-8 - Those enlightened and partakers of the Holy Spirit who fall away will be rejected and burned.

Hebrews 10:26-27 - If we sin willfully after receiving knowledge of the truth, expect God’s fiery judgment.

Hebrews 10:29-31 - The Lord will judge His people. “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay”, says the Lord.

Hebrews 10:35-39 - Endure in the faith, and do not be like those who draw back to perdition.

Hebrews 12:14-15 - Pursue holiness (w/o which no one will see the Lord) lest anyone falls short of God’s grace.

Hebrews 12:15-17 - Many believers become defiled, and finding no place for repentance, are rejected.

James 1:12-16 - Love the Lord, endure temptation to sin; do not be deceived, sin results in spiritual death.

1 Peter 1:8-9 - Believing, you will receive the end of your (enduring) faith—the salvation of your souls.

2 Peter 1:10-11 - Be diligent to make your call & election sure, so you won’t stumble, but gain the kingdom.

2 Peter 2:1, 2 Peter 2:14 - The false prophets (i.e. believers) are those who have eyes full of adultery and cannot cease from sin.

2 Peter 2:20-22 - If Christians are overcome by worldly sins, they are worse off than they were before knowing the way of righteousness, they turned from the holy commandment delivered to them.

1 John 1:9 - If we confess our sins, God will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1 John 2:3-5 - We are sure that we “know” God and are “in” Him, if we keep His commandments.

1 John 2:24-25 - If God’s word does not abide in us, the Father and the Son will not abide in us, nor we in Them, and we will not receive the promised eternal life.

1 John 3:15 - If you hate your brother, you’re like a murderer who has no eternal life abiding in him.

Jude 1:4 NIV - There are those false believers who turn the grace of our God into a license for immorality

Jude 1:20-21 - 3 things for Christians to do, while looking for God’s mercy unto eternal life.

Revelation 2:10 - Be faithful until death and Jesus will give you the crown of (eternal) life (Also see Mark 13:13above).

Revelation 2:11 - He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death (eternal death).

Revelation 3:5 - He who overcomes will not have his name blotted out from the Book of Life.

Revelation 14:9-11 - Those that worship the Beast and take his mark drink of the wine of the Wrath of God and will be thrown in the Lake of Fire.

Revelation 21:8 - Anyone practicing such sins will go into the lake of fire, which is the second death.

Revelation 21:27 - Anyone practicing such sins is not in the Book of Life, and will not enter the New Jerusalem.

Revelation 22:14 - Anyone who does not do God’s commandments does not have the right to the tree of life.

Revelation 22:15 - Anyone practicing such sins will be outside the gates of the New Jerusalem.

Revelation 22:18 - If any man takes away from the prophecy of the book (i.e. the Scriptures), God will take away their name out of the Book of Life.



Source Used:
https://www.baptistboard.com/threads/your-handy-dandy-long-list-of-verses-against-osas.83484/

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Granted, believers cannot lose their salvation, but they can forfeit their salvation (i.e. they can willingly throw it away by rebelling against God).

In fact,

Here is a list of believers who have forfeited their salvation:

Saul (1 Samuel 16:14) (1 Samuel 31:4)

Demas (2 Timothy 4:10)

The Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32)

Judas Iscariot (Psalm 41:9) (Luke 6:16) (Acts 1:25)

Hymenaeus and Philetus (2 Timothy 2:17-18)

Unnamed Christians destroyed by false teaching (2 Timothy 2:17-8)

Many Unnamed Disciples (Luke 10:17-20 and John 6:66)

Some Younger Christian Widows (1 Timothy 5:14-15)

Some Christians Eager For Money (1 Timothy 6:8-10)

Ananias and Sapphira (Acts 5:1-11)


And here is a list of potential fallen believers:

The Servant Who is Not Looking For Him (Luke 12:45-46)

Recent Convert Who is a Potential Spiritual Leader (1 Timothy 3:6)

The Unforgiving in Heart (Matthew 6:14-15)

Luke Warm Unrepentant Believer (Revelation 3:14-22)

Fruitless Christians (John 15:1-10) (Matthew 25:14-30)

Widows That Live in Pleasure (1 Timothy 5:5, 6)

Believers Whose Seed Fell Upon the Rocks (Luke 8:13)

Believers Whose Seed Was Choked by Thorns (Matthew 13:22)

Gentile Believer Who Did Not Have on a Wedding Garment (Matthew 22:1-14) (Revelation 19:7-8)

The Potential Fellow Believer Who Erred From the Truth & Was Converted Back
(James 5:19, 20)


For Jesus is the Light and we are to shine the Light of Christ within our lives. For there are those who think they can serve Jesus and also live for oneself, sin, and evil; But this is wrong, though. "For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God" (John 3:20-21).


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[Bible Highlighter]

Also, can you make a real world example (parable) out of Once Saved Always Saved or Eternal Security's version of Justification?

The short answer is no.
It is impossible.


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[stuart lawrence]

Didn't you tell tobeloved you didn't have enough time yesterday to explain the justification/sanctification process to her? Going by the amount of posts-and their lengths you have written since then I would say you had plenty of time!
When I had your views, I could not explain those processes either, neither did I have any personal opinions to give on what it meant to be born again, or having the law placed within you
It is very sad that you have clearly settled for a religion of simply reeling off the literal letter, a letter you cannot live up to in your own life.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Also, can you make a real world example (parable) out of Once Saved Always Saved or Eternal Security's version of Justification?

The short answer is no.
It is impossible.


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Do you know what I honestly believe? If the message Paul preached was fully and forthrightly preached from any pulpit that church would be packed out with worshippers. Why are so many churches half empty when the need is so great. Why is the power that was seen in the apostles time rarely seen today. Has God changed? That is not possible. Has the holy spirit changed, who is Gods power on earth? That is not possible either. Had the message changed? The message cannot change. But has peoples perception of the message changed? The power is in the truth of the message. When the truth is preached the holy spirit will respond, and the power seen in the first century church will again be seen