True Justification, works of the Law of Moses, & Conditional Security

[ToBeLoved]

You actually believe I am saving myself? That is just nutty. See, that is what you believe so as to protect your wrong belief in the Bible. But nothing could be further from the truth. I believe it is Christ working in me and HIS work that is present in my life because He lives in me. For Jesus is the source of my salvation.

For if Christ lives in a person, then there must be fruit that is present. Not some fruit whereby we can also sin, too. For Jesus said we cannot serve two masters. For you will hate the one and love the other.

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You said yourself that you do not commit sins that lead to spiritual death. So you believe that your sin can overturn the righteoussness that Christ death and blood gave you. If you believe that YOU can cause YOURSELF spiritual death after the blood of Jesus Christ makes you righteous than you are doing it to avoid hell.

You'll never convince me any different because you have said over and over that you do not commit the sins that lead to spiritual death. So you are saying that you have the power because of your sin to overthrow the righteousness of Christ.

And not just you, but others who commit the spiritual death sins that you claim overthrow the righteousness of Christ.

If you say that others who commit these sins it leads to spiritual death, than you are saying it all. That others control their destiny over the blood of Jesus.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Yes, God is patient with people to repent, but if they do not repent of a sin and they die in that sin, are they saved? Why do you think a person is saved while committing certain sins like fornication? Even if they lived in fornication for several months, do you think it would be necessary for them to repent of such sins and get their heart right with God because they were not saved while having fornication?
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Because in Romans 5, 6, 7 we are told what happens when we are saved by the blood of Jesus Christ.

We are given and indwelled by God Himself the Holy Spirit. We are SEALED by the Holy Spirit as a GUARANTEE of our inheritance in Christ Jesus. We are SEALED UNTIL THE DAY of REDEMPTION. This is what JESUS does. Not us. Jesus is holy. Jesus cannot make a promise and seal us with His Holy Spirit and go back on it.

Ephesians 1:13-14
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation-- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.

2 Corinthians 1:22
Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, 22 who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

John 6:27 "Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal

2 Corinthians 5:5
Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge.

Ephesians 4:30
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.


1 Peter 1:5
who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Romans 8:15-17
For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!" 16The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.


Sorry about the bold, my computer has gone crazy with the bold.

Your sin cannot undo the promise that God Himself has given us in Jesus Christ.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You said yourself that you do not commit sins that lead to spiritual death. So you believe that your sin can overturn the righteoussness that Christ death and blood gave you.

No. I did not say I had any power to overcome any sin. It is only Christ working in me that is able to accomplish this. I merely cooperate with Christ (God) by surrendering to Him and the "good work" He does in my life. Christ cannot be against Himself and or His own righteousness.

If you believe that YOU can cause YOURSELF spiritual death after the blood of Jesus Christ makes you righteous than you are doing it to avoid hell.

Hebrews 10:26 says if we willfully sin after we received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sin. So yes, I believe spiritual death is a possiblity for me and or for all believers (if they do not continue in Him and His goodness).

You'll never convince me any different

Herein is the crux of your problem. You have already made up your mind in what the Bible says and nothing anyone says with the Bible will convince you differently. But is this belief of yours motivated by your wanting to defend the righteousness of Christ or is it a defense of sin?

because you have said over and over that you do not commit the sins that lead to spiritual death. So you are saying that you have the power because of your sin to overthrow the righteousness of Christ.

Again, it is Christ that works in me. It is HIS righteousness. Christ cannot be against His own righteousness. You believe Jesus saves only in some distorted view of Justification. But Jesus also saves in Sanctification (i.e. in making us holy), too. Not I.... but Christ.

And not just you, but others who commit the spiritual death sins that you claim overthrow the righteousness of Christ.

Again, you will see nowhere in the Bible for your view. You have to show me where In Scripture your belief exists. I just do not see the apostles living in sin and saying they were saved or telling others that this was the case.

If you say that others who commit these sins it leads to spiritual death, than you are saying it all. That others control their destiny over the blood of Jesus.

We do have a choice in this life to be with God or to not be with God. God does not force people to believe or not to believe. People have free will. If they didn't have free will to choose God on any level, then it really would not matter what we do in this life because we cannot go against the will of God. But 2 Peter 3:9 says God is not willing that any should perish but that ALL should come to repentance. Granted, God knows not everyone will repent. But it is God's will that he is not willing that NOBODY should perish. God wants ALL people to be saved.


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[ToBeLoved]

No. I did not say I had any power to overcome any sin. It is only Christ working in me that is able to accomplish this. I merely cooperate with Christ (God) by surrendering to Him and the "good work" He does in my life. Christ cannot be against Himself and or His own righteousness.

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But you did say that if others commit a sin that leads to spiritual death.

Spiritual death is what Adam & Eve experienced when God was no longer with them. But Jesus gives us spiritual life, so spiritual death is without Jesus.

You are saying that YOU do not commit these sins that lead to spiritual death, but others can.

Who can take away what Jesus CHrist has given us?

I say that no sin can remove what we have been given by Jesus Christ. It is CHRIST'S COVENANT with US. Him. He is holy. He cannot undo HIS COVENANT with us and no sin CAN UNDO IT EITHER.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Hebrews 10:26 says if we willfully sin after we received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sin. So yes, I believe spiritual death is a possiblity for me and or for all believers (if they do not continue in Him and His goodness).

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Who was Hebrews written to?

THe Jews. Who followed the law. Under the law they made sacrifices for sin. But in Jesus Christ there is NO OTHER SACRIFICE.

So of course Hebrews says this. It is true. There is no longer sacrifice for sin under the blood of Jesus Christ.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Again, it is Christ that works in me. It is HIS righteousness. Christ cannot be against His own righteousness. You believe Jesus saves only in some distorted view of Justification. But Jesus also saves in Sanctification (i.e. in making us holy), too. Not I.... but Christ.

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Jesus DOES NOT save in Sanctification.

Sanctification is a life long process of us, being convicted by the Holy Spirit of our sin and us having the mind of Christ, that WE choose to repent and turn from our sin.


Sanctification is the process of us becoming more like Jesus Christ.

There is NO SALVATION in sanctification.

Now who does not know God's Word?

You do not know what Justification is and you do not know what Sanctification is.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Again, you will see nowhere in the Bible for your view. You have to show me where In Scripture your belief exists. I just do not see the apostles living in sin and saying they were saved or telling others that this was the case.
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Who is preaching a false gospel? Who does not understand justification or sanctification?

How can you teach others anything when you do not know yourself?

Let's get real. You give me verses that prove your theory right of what you say these things are?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You said yourself that you do not commit sins that lead to spiritual death.

The Bible speaks in a similar way. The Bible appears to say that we have works to do externally. But yet the Bible also says that these works are God's works done in us. In other words, the Bible speaks from two different perspectives. One externally and one internally. A good example of a verse to read that sounds like Paul is talking about external works but then he changes to say that this is actually an internal work is 1 Corinthians 15:10.

In other words, I am saying God helps me to overcome sin. This is not of my own power. But it is Christ. The Bible talks about this. Are you simply unaware of such verses?


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[ToBeLoved]

The Bible speaks in a similar way. The Bible appears to say that we have works to do externally. But yet the Bible also says that these works are God's works done in us. In other words, the Bible speaks from two different perspectives. One externally and one internally. A good example of a verse to read that sounds like Paul is talking about external works but then he changes to say that this is actually an internal work is 1 Corinthians 15:10.

In other words, I am saying God helps me to overcome sin. This is not of my own power. But it is Christ. The Bible talks about this. Are you simply unaware of such verses?


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You said that this leads to spiritual death.

But your verse in 1 Corinthians 15:10 talks nothing of spiritual death.

So why are you using God's Word out of context to prove a point that the verse does not show?

You need to stop accusing me of not knowing God's Word and use verses that prove your point instead of using verses out of context.

That would be a nice change.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I'm waiting to see what sin causes spiritual death that cannot be forgiven by Christ.

Where is it? None of these out of context verses that you translate. Lay it on me. The verses that prove your point.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Jesus DOES NOT save in Sanctification.

Not true. The Bible says I can do all things thru Christ which strengthens me. The Bible also says Jesus was manifested to destroy the works of the devil.

Philippians 1:6 says, "Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:"
Phiippians 1:11 says, "Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God."

Sanctification is a life long process of us, being convicted by the Holy Spirit of our sin and us having the mind of Christ, that WE choose to repent and turn from our sin.

What is the point of repentance if a person can still be saved while being in their sin? Santification is not the same for every believer. I realize there are people who honestly struggle with sin the majority of their lives and were saved in the end. Samson, and Solomon are just two examples. But nowhere is Samson and Solomon a prime examples of how we are to live as New Covenant believers, though. Yes, as I said, a believer can struggle with sin and be saved. But if someone thinks they can sin and still be saved is just not going to make it because they are making God's grace into a license to sin (Whether that sin was for a brief time or the rest of their lives).

Sanctification is the process of us becoming more like Jesus Christ.

But in your view Sanctification is just optional. It is not realy a requirement.

There is NO SALVATION in sanctification.

And the Bible disagrees with you.

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

You do not know what Justification is and you do not know what Sanctification is.

Justification is in one being declared righteous. This just does not automatically happen to human beings without some kind of move on their part towards God by their responding to His drawing. Sanctification is the process of being made holy in conduct by God working in a person's life.


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[Bible Highlighter]

You said that this leads to spiritual death.

But your verse in 1 Corinthians 15:10 talks nothing of spiritual death.

Your missing the point I was trying to make. I am saying the Bible speaks at times from two different perspectives on certain topics. Have you never encountered this in your study of the Word?

So why are you using God's Word out of context to prove a point that the verse does not show?

You need to stop accusing me of not knowing God's Word and use verses that prove your point instead of using verses out of context.

That would be a nice change.

First, do you not believe that a person can abide in a serious sin like murder, hate, idolatry, and still be saved? Second....

Sin is separation from God:

Isaiah 59:2

But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

Micah 3:4

Then shall they cry unto the LORD, but he will not hear them: he will even hide his face from them at that time, as they have behaved themselves in an evil way in their deeds.

Ezekiel 39:23-24

And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword. According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them

Isaiah 1:15

And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.

Deuteronomy 31:17-18

Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us? And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods.

Proverbs 1:28 CJB and Proverbs 1:29

Then they will call me, but I won’t answer; they will seek me earnestly, but they won’t find me. For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the Lord

Isaiah 57:17 ESV

Because of the iniquity of his unjust gain I was angry, I struck him; I hid my face and was angry, but he went on backsliding in the way of his own heart.

Proverbs 15:29

The LORD is far from the wicked: but he heareth the prayer of the righteous.

Deuteronomy 32:19-20 KJ2

And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters. And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very perverse generation, children in whom is no faith.

John 9:31 ESV

We know that God does not listen to sinners, but if anyone is a worshiper of God and does his will, God listens to him.

Proverbs 28:9

He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination.

Job 27:8-9 GNV

For what hope hath the hypocrite when he hath heaped up riches, if God take away his soul? Will God hear his cry, when trouble cometh upon him?

Zechariah 7:13 KJ2

Therefore it has come to pass that as He cried and they would not hear, so they cried and I would not hear,” saith the Lord of hosts.

Ezekiel 8:17-18 NLT

Have you seen this, son of man?” he asked. “Is it nothing to the people of Judah that they commit these detestable sins, leading the whole nation into violence, thumbing their noses at me, and provoking my anger? Therefore, I will respond in fury. I will neither pity nor spare them. And though they cry for mercy, I will not listen.

Jeremiah 14:10-12

Thus saith the Lord unto this people, Thus have they loved to wander, they have not refrained their feet, therefore the Lord doth not accept them; he will now remember their iniquity, and visit their sins. Then said the Lord unto me, Pray not for this people for their good. When they fast, I will not hear their cry; and when they offer burnt offering and an oblation, I will not accept them: but I will consume them by the sword, and by the famine, and by the pestilence.

Isaiah 58:9 HCSB

At that time, when you call, the Lord will answer; when you cry out, He will say, ‘Here I am.’ If you get rid of the yoke among you, the finger-pointing and malicious speaking,

Proverbs 21:13

Whoso stoppeth his ears at the cry of the poor, he also shall cry himself, but shall not be heard.

Psalm 66:18

If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me

Psalm 34:15-16

The eyes of the Lord are upon the righteous, and his ears are open unto their cry. The face of the Lord is against them that do evil, to cut off the remembrance of them from the earth.


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[ToBeLoved]

Philippians 1:6 says, "Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:"
Phiippians 1:11 says, "Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God."
...

That is your proof text to show that Jesus saves by sanctification?

We are sanctified to become more like Christ, but sanctification does not save.

Can you get better proof texts? I'm spending all my time correcting you and I can not get to the meat of our conversation.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Your missing the point I was trying to make. I am saying the Bible speaks at times from two different perspectives on certain topics. Have you never encountered this in your study of the Word?

That is not an excuse for giving proof texts that do not prove anything. You can build upon verses if you want, but do prove your point with the texts you give. This is getting tiring always correcting your proof texts.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Your missing the point I was trying to make. I am saying the Bible speaks at times from two different perspectives on certain topics. Have you never encountered this in your study of the Word?

First, do you not believe that a person can abide in a serious sin like murder, hate, idolatry, and still be saved?

Of course I do.

1 John 1:9
“If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”

Note it is HE who is faithful and just.

What sin besides blasphemy of the Holy Spirit does God pull out as unforgiveable?

 

[ToBeLoved]

Second....

Sin is separation from God:

Isaiah 59:2

But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

Micah 3:4

Then shall they cry unto the LORD, but he will not hear them: he will even hide his face from them at that time, as they have behaved themselves in an evil way in their deeds.

Ezekiel 39:23-24

And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword. According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them

Isaiah 1:15

And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.

Deuteronomy 31:17-18

Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us? And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods.

Proverbs 1:28 CJB and Proverbs 1:29

Then they will call me, but I won’t answer; they will seek me earnestly, but they won’t find me. For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the Lord

Isaiah 57:17 ESV

Because of the iniquity of his unjust gain I was angry, I struck him; I hid my face and was angry, but he went on backsliding in the way of his own heart.

Proverbs 15:29

The LORD is far from the wicked: but he heareth the prayer of the righteous.

Deuteronomy 32:19-20 KJ2

And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters. And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very perverse generation, children in whom is no faith.

John 9:31 ESV

We know that God does not listen to sinners, but if anyone is a worshiper of God and does his will, God listens to him.

Proverbs 28:9

He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination.

Job 27:8-9 GNV

For what hope hath the hypocrite when he hath heaped up riches, if God take away his soul? Will God hear his cry, when trouble cometh upon him?

Zechariah 7:13 KJ2

Therefore it has come to pass that as He cried and they would not hear, so they cried and I would not hear,” saith the Lord of hosts.

Ezekiel 8:17-18 NLT

Have you seen this, son of man?” he asked. “Is it nothing to the people of Judah that they commit these detestable sins, leading the whole nation into violence, thumbing their noses at me, and provoking my anger? Therefore, I will respond in fury. I will neither pity nor spare them. And though they cry for mercy, I will not listen.

Jeremiah 14:10-12

Thus saith the Lord unto this people, Thus have they loved to wander, they have not refrained their feet, therefore the Lord doth not accept them; he will now remember their iniquity, and visit their sins. Then said the Lord unto me, Pray not for this people for their good. When they fast, I will not hear their cry; and when they offer burnt offering and an oblation, I will not accept them: but I will consume them by the sword, and by the famine, and by the pestilence.

Isaiah 58:9 HCSB

At that time, when you call, the Lord will answer; when you cry out, He will say, ‘Here I am.’ If you get rid of the yoke among you, the finger-pointing and malicious speaking,

Proverbs 21:13

Whoso stoppeth his ears at the cry of the poor, he also shall cry himself, but shall not be heard.

Psalm 66:18

If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me

Psalm 34:15-16

The eyes of the Lord are upon the righteous, and his ears are open unto their cry. The face of the Lord is against them that do evil, to cut off the remembrance of them from the earth.


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What you need to do is separate sin under the Old Covenant where sin was temporarily attoned for through the blood of animals and sin that the blood of Jesus attoned for.

Under the Old Covenant, if they committed one sin, they committed them all.

Under the New Covenant we are not held to that standard because we have PERMANANT attonement through the blood of Jesus Christ.

So you need to be able to discern whether it was under the law or under the New Covenant. That is where you are going wrong here.

Two different coveants Big difference.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I'm waiting to see what sin causes spiritual death that cannot be forgiven by Christ.Where is it? None of these out of context verses that you translate. Lay it on me. The verses that prove your point.

Hebrews 10:26, Matthew 6:15, 1 John 3:15, Ephesians 5:3-7, Galatians 5:19-23, Colossians 3:5-9, 1 Corinthians 6:9-11, Revelation 21:8, Romans 11:22.

For where does the Bible say that you do not have to forgive and still be forgiven (thereby undoing the words of Jesus)?
Where does the Bible change John's teaching that we can hate our brother whereby eternal life cannot be abiding in us by doing so?
Where does Paul say that the unrighteous can inherit the Kingdom of God for those who abide in such sins as lying, murder, hate, idolatry, fornication, etc.?

...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

What you need to do is separate sin under the Old Covenant where sin was temporarily attoned for through the blood of animals and sin that the blood of Jesus attoned for.

Under the Old Covenant, if they committed one sin, they committed them all.

Under the New Covenant we are not held to that standard because we have PERMANANT attonement through the blood of Jesus Christ.

So you need to be able to discern whether it was under the law or under the New Covenant. That is where you are going wrong here.

Two different coveants Big difference.

No. you have to keep reading after Hebrews 10:26.

Here is is.

"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." (Hebrews 10:26-31).


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[Bible Highlighter]

Of course I do.

1 John 1:9
“If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”

Note it is HE who is faithful and just.

What sin besides blasphemy of the Holy Spirit does God pull out as unforgiveable?

A person dying in unrepentant sin is unforgivable because repentance is a requirement for salvation. 2 Corinthians 7:10 says Godly sorrow leads to repentance unto salvation. Scripture says the sorrow of the world brings death. So Godly sorrow is a requirement. If there is no sorrow over our sins and or any desire to stop, then one is not truly sorry about their sin the Godly way. Judas was sorry about his sin in betraying the Lord, but he committed suicide over it. He had the wrong kind of sorrow that did not lead to salvation.

....

 

[Bible Highlighter]

What you need to do is separate sin under the Old Covenant where sin was temporarily attoned for through the blood of animals and sin that the blood of Jesus attoned for.

Under the Old Covenant, if they committed one sin, they committed them all.

Under the New Covenant we are not held to that standard because we have PERMANANT attonement through the blood of Jesus Christ.

So you need to be able to discern whether it was under the law or under the New Covenant. That is where you are going wrong here.

Two different coveants Big difference.

No. In the Old Covenant, the blood of goats and bulls never took away PAST sin for good. They had to keep revisiting the same sins year after year. This was a temporary covering for PAST sins and not future sins. The blood of Jesus and His sacrifice is able to cleanse us from PAST sin once and for all for good on a permanent basis. But again, this does not cover future sin. Nowhere does the Bible ever imply or say that future sins are covered. Jesus's sacrifice does not cover future rebellion or sin that goes unconfessed or that is not forsaken. God cannot be party to your agreement to sin unless you actually express Godly sorrow over your sin by confessing it and forsaking it with a broken heart (Whereby you strive to overcome it with His help).


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