True Justification, works of the Law of Moses, & Conditional Security

[ToBeLoved]

Scripture tells us this about that type of situation, IF they name themselves a christian brother or sister.
1 Cor 5
Immorality Must Be Judged
9 I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. 10 Yet Icertainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.

12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.”

Such persons God says to cast out of the church, if God has not cast them out of the church already by circumstance. there are other verses that say this same thing. We judge those in the church, God judges those outside.

I disagree if they are a new Christian or have severe sin issues. When someone is an addict it is different. You only send a doctor to the sick.

If one wants to hear of Christ. Who can cast them out?

What Paul is talking about are Christians who continually CHOOSE to dwell in sin. And not to cast them out of churches, but that other Christians stay away, lest they are also tempted into sin.

He is talking about time outside of church.

 

[sdowney717]

I disagree if they are a new Christian or have severe sin issues. When someone is an addict it is different. You only send a doctor to the sick.

If one wants to hear of Christ. Who can cast them out?

What Paul is talking about are Christians who continually CHOOSE to dwell in sin. And not to cast them out of churches, but that other Christians stay away, lest they are also tempted into sin.

He is talking about time outside of church.

Paul says to "when you are gathered together," that is at church.
You are to
'deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh,'
Which means to cut them off from the presence of the Lord, which today is His body the church, you are to break fellowship with them and the church with them, so they are not to be allowed to assemble with you at church. The command is and Paul EMPHASIZES with the power of the Lord Jesus Christ, “put away from yourselves the evil person.” See Paul mentions 'yourselves' and 'gathered together' is the church body where this person is present.

You can not stay away from a presumptuous sinner if they are fellowshipping with others in the church.

Such a sinner who despises the teaching of the Lord is sinning presumptuously AGAINST the LORD, and God's command is clear about what is to be done even from the OT times.

5 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles—that a man has his father’s wife!2 And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

And here in Numbers 15
Law Concerning Presumptuous Sin
30 ‘But the person who does anything presumptuously, whether he is native-born or a stranger, that one brings reproach on the Lord, and he shall be cut off from among his people. 31 Because he has despised the word of the Lord, and has broken His commandment, that person shall be completely cut off; his guilt shall be upon him.’”

Paul is mirroring the original instruction recorded back then and God has not changed His mind.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Paul says to "when you are gathered together," that is at church.
You are to
'deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh,'
Which means to cut them off from the presence of the Lord, which today is His body the church, you are to break fellowship with them and the church with them, so they are not to be allowed to assemble with you at church. The command is and Paul EMPHASIZES with the power of the Lord Jesus Christ, “put away from yourselves the evil person.” See Paul mentions 'yourselves' and 'gathered together' is the church body where this person is present.

You can not stay away from a presumptuous sinner if they are fellowshipping with others in the church.

Such a sinner who despises the teaching of the Lord is sinning presumptuously AGAINST the LORD, and God's command is clear about what is to be done even from the OT times.

5 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles—that a man has his father’s wife!2 And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

And here in Numbers 15
Law Concerning Presumptuous Sin
30 ‘But the person who does anything presumptuously, whether he is native-born or a stranger, that one brings reproach on the Lord, and he shall be cut off from among his people. 31 Because he has despised the word of the Lord, and has broken His commandment, that person shall be completely cut off; his guilt shall be upon him.’”

Paul is mirroring the original instruction recorded back then and God has not changed His mind.

They were in the church sleeping with other people in the church.

They were not hiding it and it got back to Paul

 

[sdowney717]

They were in the church sleeping with other people in the church.

They were not hiding it and it got back to Paul

I can see you're not listening, oh well.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I can see you're not listening, oh well.

So you believe that you cannot fellowship in church with sinners lest it rub off on you?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Scripture tells us this about that type of situation, IF they name themselves a christian brother or sister.
1 Cor 5
Immorality Must Be Judged
9 I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. 10 Yet Icertainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.

12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.”

Such persons God says to cast out of the church, if God has not cast them out of the church already by circumstance. there are other verses that say this same thing. We judge those in the church, God judges those outside.

I agree.

In addition, Matthew 13:41-42 says

"The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity. And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

....

 

[Bible Highlighter]

So you believe that you cannot fellowship in church with sinners lest it rub off on you?

There is a difference between having fellowship with believers who falsely think they can sin and still be saved versus say trying to evangelize or preach the gospel to unbelievers. One is to have fellowship with darkness and the other is to shine a light to those who are in darkness.

...

 

[ToBeLoved]

There is a difference between having fellowship with believers who falsely think they can sin and still be saved versus say trying to evangelize or preach the gospel to unbelievers. One is to have fellowship with darkness and the other is to shine a light to those who are in darkness.

...

So your not still a sinner and saved?

What If you are a bad influence on them? Why are you worried about everyone else in the church? Is there not a plank in your eye?

How does your pastor handle that? Getting rid of all those sinners before fellowship?

Why not just have membership cards? Then you can vet them in advance.

 

[nobdysfool]

There is a difference between having fellowship with believers who falsely think they can sin and still be saved versus say trying to evangelize or preach the gospel to unbelievers. One is to have fellowship with darkness and the other is to shine a light to those who are in darkness.

...

Still falsely accusing others of things they have never said or advocated. Straw men abound in your words.

 

[ToBeLoved]

There is a difference between having fellowship with believers who falsely think they can sin and still be saved versus say trying to evangelize or preach the gospel to unbelievers. One is to have fellowship with darkness and the other is to shine a light to those who are in darkness.

...

I've got my boots on now.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

So your not still a sinner and saved?

The Bibe does not ever say we are sinners after coming to the faith. The Bible only says Christ paid the price for us at the cross while we were yet sinners; Meaning, this was Christ taking care or redemption for man so as to offer Him the free gift. The Bible says Jesus came to save sinners. But nowhere does the Bible ever say that God's people stay as sinners after accepting Him or His free gift. On the contrary, Jesus says to two people to: "sin no more." John says, "sin not." Paul says, "be ye angry and sin not and do not give place to the devil." Paul also essentially says, "if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness is proud and knows nothing." Paul in several places in Scripture has said that we used to be sinners as a part of our old life. Are you unaware of these verses? If so, please read Ephesians 2:2-3, Ephesians 2:11, Colossians 3:7). In Romans 6:1-6, Paul forbids us in thinking that we can continue in sin so that grace may abound. He says we are to walk in newness of life. He says how can we who are dead to sin walk any longer therein. For he says the old man is crucified so that the body of sin might be destroyed.

The Bible also calls us saints and holy and peculiar people. We are kings and priests. We cannot be sinners and also saints. That would be a contradiction in terms. A person cannot be both the hero and the villian. A person cannot abide in the Light and also abide in the darkness. A person cannot abide with God and also abide with Satan. A person cannot be a slave to righteousness and also be a slave to sin.

But to answer your question personally. Am I a sinner who is saved? Again, not all sin is the same (See 1 John 5:16-18). There are sins that lead unto death (like lying, murder, hate, fornication, etc. - Revelation 21:8) and there are sins that do not lead unto death (Psalm 19:12). In other words, in the context of those sins that lead unto spiriutal death (Which are the types of sins that can separate me between me and my God), I am not a sinner who is saved. Rather, in that sense, I am saint who is saved. For I do not commit sins that lead unto spiritual death on a daily basis like lying, hate, adultery, theft, idolatry, and drunkenness. Sins that do not lead unto death (or hidden errors or faults) are automatically paid for by Christ and they are not charged to our account; And we are also to pray so as to seek and find even these types of sins so as to overcome them, as well. But sins that do not lead death do not label the believer as being a sinner if they are walking after the Spirit in Christ Jesus in holiness. The Bible has defined these types of sins as faults or errors and not as grevious sins that will separate us from God or the types of transgression that would label us as being a "sinner." For the Bible recognizes the disobedience to certain Commands as not leading unto spiritual death like baptism (1 Peter 3:21).

What If you are a bad influence on them?

I do not lie, hate, fornicate, or get drunk with other people. So no, I would not be a bad influence upon anyone. I am very careful to let the light of Christ shine upon men.

Why are you worried about everyone else in the church?

Peter said if you love me, feed my sheep.

According Matthew 13:41-42, in the end, Jesus will send forth his angels to gather out of HIS Kingdom all who offend and do iniquity (i.e. sin) and will cast them into the fire. We are to warn others about this out of love.

In other words, those in Christ's Kingdom who work sin and iniquity will be removed by Christ's angels and destroyed by fire.

Is there not a plank in your eye?

No, I do not tell others to not commit a grevious sin that I am doing myself. That would make me a hypocrite and there are plenty of those out there that people have used as an excuse to not accept Christ.

How does your pastor handle that?

I do not go to a traditional Institutional church. For the church is not a building, but it is a people. If you were to adhere to Scripture alone, there is no evidence for an Institional Church with one man calling the shots. Jesus sent people out in two's. The Biblical approach to fellowship is in having house fellowship so as to celebrate the Lord's supper and have an intimacy with the brethren like they did in the New Testament (Whereby the Pastor is more a guide or shepherd instead of a dictator that is above the Word of God in certain cases in telling people what to do that is not Biblical). Nowhere does the Bible ever say we are to have fellowship with unbelievers.

Getting rid of all those sinners before fellowship?

Which is your confusion by the fact that you attend an Institional Church. Evangelizing in the Bible involved two going house to house or in preaching to large crowds by invitation. Nowhere does God's people ever gather to have fellowship with unbelievers. That does not make any sense. For what fellowship has light with darkness? What fellowship does Christ have with Belial?

Why not just have membership cards? Then you can vet them in advance.

God's people are holy and they live righteously. It is how we are different from the world and how we lead people to Christ. For it is not our light that shines upon others but it is the light of Christ within us that shines in the darkness (Leading men to true repentance from sin).


....

 

[EmSw]

The Bibe does not ever say we are sinners after coming to the faith. The Bible only says Christ paid the price for us at the cross while we were yet sinners; Meaning, this was Christ taking care or redemption for man so as to offer Him the free gift. The Bible says Jesus came to save sinners. But nowhere does the Bible ever say that God's people stay as sinners after accepting Him or His free gift. On the contrary, Jesus says to two people to: "sin no more." John says, "sin not." Paul says, "be ye angry and sin not and do not give place to the devil." Paul also essentially says, "if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness is proud and knows nothing." Paul in several places in Scripture has said that we used to be sinners as a part of our old life. Are you unaware of these verses? If so, please read Ephesians 2:2-3, Ephesians 2:11, Colossians 3:7). In Romans 6:1-6, Paul forbids us in thinking that we can continue in sin so that grace may abound. He says we are to walk in newness of life. He says how can we who are dead to sin walk any longer therein. For he says the old man is crucified so that the body of sin might be destroyed.

The Bible also calls us saints and holy and peculiar people. We are kings and priests. We cannot be sinners and also saints. That would be a contradiction in terms. A person cannot be both the hero and the villian. A person cannot abide in the Light and also abide in the darkness. A person cannot abide with God and also abide with Satan. A person cannot be a slave to righteousness and also be a slave to sin.

But to answer your question personally. Am I a sinner who is saved? Again, not all sin is the same (See 1 John 5:16-18). There are sins that lead unto death and there are sins that do not lead unto death. In other words, in the context of those sins that lead unto spiriutal death (Which are the types of sins that can separate me between me and my God), I am not a sinner who is saved. Rather, in that sense, I am saint who is saved. For I do not commit sins that lead unto spiritual death on a daily basis like lying, hate, adultery, theft, idolatry, and drunkenness. Sins that do not lead unto death (or hidden errors or faults) are automatically paid for by Christ and they are not charged to our account; And we are also to pray so as to seek and find even these types of sins so as to overcome them, as well. But sins that do not lead death do not label the believer as being a sinner if they are walking after the Spirit in Christ Jesus in holiness. The Bible has defined these types of sins as faults or errors and not as grevious sins that will separate us from God or the types of transgression that would label us as being a "sinner." For the Bible recognizes certain Commands as not leading unto spiritual death like baptism (1 Peter 3:21).



I do not lie, hate, fornicate, or get drunk with other people. So no, I would not be a bad influence upon anyone. I am very careful to let the light of Christ shine upon men.



Peter said if you love me, feed my sheep.

According Matthew 13:41-42, in the end, Jesus will send forth his angels to gather out of HIS Kingdom all who offend and do iniquity (i.e. sin) and will cast them into the fire. We are to warn others about this out of love.

In other words, those in Christ's Kingdom who work sin and iniquity will be removed by Christ's angels and destroyed in the fire.



No, I do not tell others to not commit a grevious sin that I am doing myself. That would make me a hypocrite and there are plenty of those out there that people have used as an excuse to not accept Christ.



I do not go to a traditional Institutional church. For the church is not a building, but it is a people. If you were to adhere to Scripture alone, there is no evidence for an Institional Church with one man calling the shots. Jesus sent people out in two's. The Biblical approach to fellowship is in having house fellowship so as to celebrate the Lord's supper and have an intimacy with the brethren like they did in the New Testament (Whereby the Pastor is more a guide or shepherd instead of a dictator that is above the Word of God in certain cases in telling people what to do that is not Biblical).



Which is your confusion by the fact that you attend an Institional Church. Evangelizing in the Bible involved two going house to house or in preaching to large crowds by invitation. Nowhere does God's people ever gather to have fellowship with unbelievers. That does not make any sense.



God's people are holy and they live righteously. It is how we are different from the world and how we lead people to Christ. For it is not our light that shines upon others but it is the light of Christ within us that shines in the darkness (Leading men to true repentance from sin).


....

As you see Jason, some believers have a very hard time living righteously before the Lord. They even question those who do.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

As you see Jason, some believers have a very hard time living righteously before the Lord. They even question those who do.

Yes, it grieves me in my heart that they cannot understand that one can walk uprightly with God. If one abides with Christ after truly repenting of sin with a Godly sorrow, one can indeed not live day in and day out in sins such as lying, hating, fornicating, swearing, and drunkenness, etc. Once a person walks in the righteousness of Christ, they realize that his burdens are easy and light and they are not all that difficult as they are making it out to be. Why? Because it is Christ workinng in us to do of His good will and pleasure (According to His Word - which glorifies Him).

It is my prayer that they see that so very much.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Still falsely accusing others of things they have never said or advocated. Straw men abound in your words.

Then you have not been following along in what folks have been saying here. "To Be Loved" has implied that a person can still be saved while still sleeping around with another outside of marriage. "Stuart" has said that a person can die in unrepentant sin of drunkenness in certain cases and still be saved. So yes, I see that as a "sin and still be saved" type docrine.


...

 

[ToBeLoved]

According Matthew 13:41-42, in the end, Jesus will send forth his angels to gather out of HIS Kingdom all who offend and do iniquity (i.e. sin) and will cast them into the fire. We are to warn others about this out of love.

In other words, those in Christ's Kingdom who work sin and iniquity will be removed by Christ's angels and destroyed by fire.

Is that verse in Matthew talking about people or Christ creating the new heaven and the new earth? I don't see where that verse is talking about people.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Then you have not been following along in what folks have been saying here. "To Be Loved" has implied that a person can still be saved while still sleeping around with another outside of marriage. "Stuart" has said that a person can die in unrepentant sin of drunkenness in certain cases and still be saved. So yes, I see that as a "sin and still be saved" type docrine.
...

No. What I said is that after we are saved, the Holy Spirit indwelling us convicts us of sin but that many do not do an about face transformation into being like Christ and do a 360 degree turn.

God is patient with us and the Holy Spirit works with us in love. God does not have a sin-o-meter that He judges us by (although man will judge you every time). Each person is working through their own trials with the help of the Holy Spirit.

Glad I got the chance to clarify.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Yes, it grieves me in my heart that they cannot understand that one can walk uprightly with God. If one abides with Christ after truly repenting of sin with a Godly sorrow, one can indeed not live day in and day out in sins such as lying, hating, fornicating, swearing, and drunkenness, etc. Once a person walks in the righteousness of Christ, they realize that his burdens are easy and light and they are not all that difficult as they are making it out to be. Why? Because it is Christ workinng in us to do of His good will and pleasure (According to His Word - which glorifies Him).

It is my prayer that they see that so very much.
...

But see here is the difference.

We both believe that man can walk uprightly with God. Our motivations are different.

You are saving yourself from hell when you do it because you have said over and over that certain sins lead to spiritual death.

We are walking uprightly with God because we love Him.

We believe as you do about walking with Him.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I've got my boots on now.

The Bible says,

"On your feet wear the Good News of peace to help you stand strong." (Ephesians 6:15 ERV).

"and having strapped on your feet the gospel of peace in preparation [to face the enemy with firm-footed stability and the readiness produced by the good news]." (Ephesians 6:15 AMP).

"For the kingdom of God is ... righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost." (Romans 14:17).


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

But see here is the difference.

We both believe that man can walk uprightly with God. Our motivations are different.

You are saving yourself from hell when you do it because you have said over and over that certain sins lead to spiritual death.

We are walking uprightly with God because we love Him.

We believe as you do about walking with Him.

You actually believe I am saving myself? That is just nutty. See, that is what you believe so as to protect your wrong belief in the Bible. But nothing could be further from the truth. I believe it is Christ working in me and HIS work that is present in my life because He lives in me. For Jesus is the source of my salvation.

For if Christ lives in a person, then there must be fruit that is present. Not some fruit whereby we can also sin, too. For Jesus said we cannot serve two masters. For you will hate the one and love the other.

...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

No. What I said is that after we are saved, the Holy Spirit indwelling us convicts us of sin but that many do not do an about face transformation into being like Christ and do a 360 degree turn.

God is patient with us and the Holy Spirit works with us in love. God does not have a sin-o-meter that He judges us by (although man will judge you every time). Each person is working through their own trials with the help of the Holy Spirit.

Glad I got the chance to clarify.

Yes, God is patient with people to repent, but if they do not repent of a sin and they die in that sin, are they saved? Why do you think a person is saved while committing certain sins like fornication? Even if they lived in fornication for several months, do you think it would be necessary for them to repent of such sins and get their heart right with God because they were not saved while having fornication?


...