True Justification, works of the Law of Moses, & Conditional Security

[ToBeLoved]

For me, if I was in your position, I would make sure that EVERY time I mention that a person is justified by just having a belief in Jesus alone, I would stress that obedience must be the outward showing of their faith in being born again. Why? Because if you don't (which I have seen you say at times), then you are giving people a license to sin. But see, why should truth half preached lead someone into error? It doesn't make sense. God's good ways will always lead a person into holiness and righteousness and not unrighteousness if you only preach one part of the message as you have done at times. That's one of the many reasons why I have a problem with your belief.
...

Don't you think that these two sentences contradict each other?

You are saying that the Holy Spirit indwelling each believer and the fact that we have the mind of Christ is not enough.

You tell them that they need more, that there needs to be an outward showing, but that is not the gospel. So you preach the gospel with a few extra's. Then you are in Paul's words preaching another gospel.

Galatians 1:7-9
7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! 9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

 

[stuart lawrence]

That really does not address the concerns that I have. Are you found as a sinner? Do you not believe 1 John 1:8 teaches that to say you have no sin is to deceive yourself? What kind of sin are we talking about here? Why do you not see it being a problem in giving half the message at times? (i.e. one half of the mesage being that a belief in Jesus is all you need to be saved - and the other half is saying that born again believers exhibit obedience and they do not abide in tons of horrible sins).

For me, if I was in your position, I would make sure that EVERY time I mention that a person is justified by just having a belief in Jesus alone, I would stress that obedience must be the outward showing of their faith in being born again. Why? Because if you don't (which I have seen you say at times), then you are giving people a license to sin. But see, why should truth half preached lead someone into error? It doesn't make sense. God's good ways will always lead a person into holiness and righteousness and not unrighteousness if you only preach one part of the message as you have done at times. That's one of the many reasons why I have a problem with your belief.


...

Jason as long as I have a belief the christian has a righteousness before God apart from the whole law you would have a problem with it!
Whether you state specific things or not, that is what you refuse to accept
But you see, I do state BOTH core components of the new covenant and explain them. Yet you, though constantly asked to do so cannot explain the core component that stops the licence to sin for the christian. So I don't think you should be criticising me lol!
The truly born again christian in their heart wants to obey, that is the whole point of being born again. In such circumstances you do not need to stress obedience to them so much as the grace, for they desire obedience. They need to understand how obedience is to be achieved.
If we claim to be without sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us 1john1:8
As you said to me. You can either accept the scripture as it is plainly written or change it to make it say whatever you want it to say.
In truth all you are doing is trying to find various ways to deny Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness rom10:4
Paul would be very misleading in his letters if you were right wouldn't he! Here he would be inferring Christ is the end of the whole law unto righteousness, while continually forgetting to mention this did not include the ten commandments. Of course Paul would never make such a mistake as that.
Rom 7:7-11, gal 3:10&11, rom 3:20 all prove you wrong, let alone many other verses yet you refuse to accept Christ is your one and only righteousness before God, you want a righteousness of your own under the law. Therefore you hinge your hope of heaven/your righteousness before God on works of the law, something Paul continually stresses the christian cannot do

 

[Bible Highlighter]

But.

If one follows what Jesus said is the most important commandment which is to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and mind, you don't think that loving God like that makes it so we do not want to sin?

I think that you should think about your own love for God because if you were loving the Lord in this way you would not be amazing and find it odd that we do it all out of love.

This is very bad, because Jesus said this is the MOST important commandment.

How do you think that Jesus feels about that? You not honoring what He told you is the GREATEST commandment for us to follow.

Do not patronize us because we do it all out of love and want to please our Lord. We are doing what Jesus commanded us to do.

All of Jesus' commandments and his apostles commands are based on love or God's two greatest commandments. Why? Because God is love. Jesus said if we love Him, we will keep His commandments. There are more than just the two. Those are the foundational commands by which every other one in the New Testament is founded on. Granted, we cannot keep the New Covenant Law alone as a means of salvation. A person needs to first repent of their sins (which would involve one expressing Godly sorrow to the Lord that they will not sin again), accept Jesus Christ, and believe that His death, burial, and resurrection saves them. From that point, Christ works in the believer to do the "good work" that we seek so as to please our Lord (By obeying the Commands in the New). Walking in NEW-ness of life and being a slave to righteousness (and leaving our old nature behind) is what we are called to do. We don't go backwards. For if we do, then we will merely reap what we sow.

...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Don't you think that these two sentences contradict each other?

You are saying that the Holy Spirit indwelling each believer and the fact that we have the mind of Christ is not enough.

You tell them that they need more, that there needs to be an outward showing, but that is not the gospel. So you preach the gospel with a few extra's. Then you are in Paul's words preaching another gospel.

Galatians 1:7-9
7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! 9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

Is it true that the grace of God is the center of the gospel? Yes, most definitey.

So if that is the case, then the Bible says this about the grace of God,

"For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;" (Titus 2:11-12).

For do you not think that holiness and righteousness is not what we are called to do according to what we have learned in Christ?

"This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness. But ye have not so learned Christ; If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness." (Ephesians 4:17-21).

And ....

"I rejoiced greatly that I found of thy children walking in truth, as we have received a commandment from the Father. And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another. And this is love, that we walk after his commandments" (2 John 1:4-6).

"If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds." (2 John 1:10-11).

Also read 1 Timothy 6:3-4.


...

 

[stuart lawrence]

All of Jesus' commandments and his apostles commands are based on love or God's two greatest commandments. Why? Because God is love. Jesus said if we love Him, we will keep His commandments. There are more than just the two. Those are the foundational commands by which every other one in the New Testament is founded on. Granted, we cannot keep the New Covenant Law alone as a means of salvation. A person needs to first repent of their sins (which would involve one expressing Godly sorrow to the Lord that they will not sin again), accept Jesus Christ, and believe that His death, burial, and resurrection saves them. From that point, Christ works in the believer to do the "good work" that we seek so as to please our Lord (By obeying the Commands in the New). Walking in NEW-ness of life and being a slave to righteousness (and leaving our old nature behind) is what we are called to do. We don't go backwards. For if we do, then we will merely reap what we sow.

...

In other words, we are justified before God by works of the law.
Paul states:
We who are Jews by birth and not sinful Gentiles 16 know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith ind]'>[d] Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified. Gal2:15&16

 

[Bible Highlighter]

In other words, we are justified before God by works of the law.
Paul states:
We who are Jews by birth and not sinful Gentiles 16 know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith ind]'>[d] Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified. Gal2:15&16

And again, the context is the works of Law of Moses (i.e. circumcision, etc.) and not God directed works (Which would involve the Commands in the New Testament) that are supposed to be present in a believer's life because Christ (God) is living in their life.

"But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:" (Galatians 2:3).

For James says we are justified by works. Did James say the works of the law (as in reference to the Law of Moses)? No. James was referring to God directed works (Which must be present in a believer's life to show they are truly born again and have God living in them).

"You see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

For Paul says,

"Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?" (2 Corinthians 13:5).

In your version of grace, there is no having to prove anything. You believe in Jesus and you are saved by that belief.

You say that we generally obey, but what of the other part you have said about being found as sinners? This is a problem because Paul also says,

"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, " (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

...

 

[stuart lawrence]

And again, the context is the works of Law of Moses (i.e. circumcision, etc.) and not God directed works (Which would involve the Commands in the New Testament) that are supposed to be present in a believer's life because Christ (God) is living in their life.

"But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:" (Galatians 2:3).

For James says we are justified by works. Did James say the works of the law (as in reference to the Law of Moses)? No. James was referring to God directed works (Which must be present in a believer's life to show they are truly born again and have God living in them).

"You see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

...

 

[stuart lawrence]

I do not wish to be unkind, but your clinging to Paul supposedly only stating to works of the law in reference to the mosaic law is frankly ridiculous.

For we maintain a man is justified by faith apart from works of the law Rom 3:28

 

[stuart lawrence]

But Paul could perfectly obey the mosaic law couldn't he. You have already admitted the only law he could not faultlessly obey was the moral law. So why would Paul continually state you can have no justification before God solely concerning law he could faultlessly obey. The more you cling to your misguided beliefs the more scripture testifies against them

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I do not wish to be unkind, but your clinging to Paul supposedly only stating to works of the law in reference to the mosaic law is frankly ridiculous.

For we maintain a man is justified by faith apart from works of the law Rom 3:28

No, it is ridiculous to assume God would be against telling people that they would not be held accountable salvation wise for disobeying God's moral law. Granted, you said before that your belief leads to obedience. But then you contradict yourself and have also said that you will be found as a sinner, etc.

As for Romans 3:28: Again, this is in reference to the works of the Law of Moses. Here is the context (again):

"What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?" (Romans 3:1).


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

But Paul could perfectly obey the mosaic law couldn't he.

It's deceptive to say that. The Mosaic Law would include all 613 Laws under the Old Covenant or the Old Testament (Which would include the moral law). In Philippians, Paul is referring to the Pharisee law or their traditions (Which were never a part of the Old Covenant).

You have already admitted the only law he could not faultlessly obey was the moral law. So why would Paul continually state you can have no justification before God solely concerning law he could faultlessly obey. The more you cling to your misguided beliefs the more scripture testifies against them

The Old Testament saint was never justified by law but by faith (just like the New Testament saint). All believers are born again by faith in God's Word and looking to the Lord so as to save them. All believers had the Lord living within them. All were justified in the finished work of the cross and by the work the Lord does in their hearts and lives. For salvation is not in only Justifcation or belief alone but salvation is also in Sanctfication, too (i.e. God working in your life and making you holy and righteous as He is).

Side Note:

Oh, and there is one thing I would like to add: Granted, not all OT saints were aware of the details about the gospel or Jesus, but that does not mean they did not look to a Messiah who was going to take away all their sin (past sin) once and for all.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Anyways, I gotta go. Please have a blessed day.
And may God's love shine upon you today.


...

 

[stuart lawrence]

No, it is ridiculous to assume God would be against telling people that they would not be held accountable salvation wise for disobeying God's moral law. Granted, you said before that your belief leads to obedience. But then you contradict yourself and have also said that you will be found as a sinner, etc.

As for Romans 3:28: Again, this is in reference to the works of the Law of Moses. Here is the context (again):

"What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?" (Romans 3:1).


...

I see you are still clinging to what has been proved scripturally to be wrong.
To you the new covenant is ridiculous, for you cannot explain with personal thoughts what that new covenant entails. Therefore I am sure you do see it as ridiculous

 

[stuart lawrence]

Anyways, I gotta go. Please have a blessed day.
And may God's love shine upon you today.


...

You also
God Bless

 

[stuart lawrence]

It's deceptive to say that. The Mosaic Law would include all 613 Laws under the Old Covenant or the Old Testament (Which would include the moral law). In Philippians, Paul is referring to the Pharisee law or their traditions (Which were never a part of the Old Covenant).



The Old Testament saint was never justified by law but by faith (just like the New Testament saint). All believers are born again by faith in God's Word and looking to the Lord so as to save them. All believers had the Lord living within them. All were justified in the finished work of the cross and by the work the Lord does in their hearts and lives. For salvation is not in only Justifcation or belief alone but salvation is also in Sanctfication, too (i.e. God working in your life and making you holy and righteous as He is).

Side Note:

Oh, and there is one thing I would like to add: Granted, not all OT saints were aware of the details about the gospel or Jesus, but that does not mean they did not look to a Messiah who was going to take away all their sin (past sin) once and for all.


...

No one who lived during ot times was born again. You have previously admitted Paul could faultlessly obhey the whole law apart from the moral law, but now feel the need to backtrack a wee bit due to admitting such a truth is showing your beliefs to be wrong.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Don't you think that these two sentences contradict each other?

You are saying that the Holy Spirit indwelling each believer and the fact that we have the mind of Christ is not enough.

You tell them that they need more, that there needs to be an outward showing, but that is not the gospel. So you preach the gospel with a few extra's. Then you are in Paul's words preaching another gospel.

Galatians 1:7-9
7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! 9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

Also, the Bible says this about the gospel and righteous living.

"That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God. For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries: Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you: Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit." (1 Peter 4:2-6 KJV)


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

In any event, I gotta fly.

Peace be unto you all.

Sincerely,

~ Jason.


....

 

[ToBeLoved]

All of Jesus' commandments and his apostles commands are based on love or God's two greatest commandments. Why? Because God is love. Jesus said if we love Him, we will keep His commandments. There are more than just the two. Those are the foundational commands by which every other one in the New Testament is founded on. Granted, we cannot keep the New Covenant Law alone as a means of salvation. A person needs to first repent of their sins (which would involve one expressing Godly sorrow to the Lord that they will not sin again), accept Jesus Christ, and believe that His death, burial, and resurrection saves them. From that point, Christ works in the believer to do the "good work" that we seek so as to please our Lord (By obeying the Commands in the New). Walking in NEW-ness of life and being a slave to righteousness (and leaving our old nature behind) is what we are called to do. We don't go backwards. For if we do, then we will merely reap what we sow.

...

Very true.

I have a question based on the reality of what people are like and who we are as human beings.

If I meet someone who is really messed up in sin, let's say for instance they are into drugs, not only into drugs but addicted to them. And they live with their boyfriend/girlfriend also addicted to drugs. This person swears like a sailor and has a lot of problems. They're lives are just a hot mess. I mean the worst.

So, one day I'm talking with them about Jesus Christ and invite them to come to church with me on Sunday. They are not sure they really want to but they have hit rock bottom and maybe what I say is true so they will give it a shot and go to church with me. So we go to church and that person realizes that they have messed up their lives and they want and need a Savior to forgive them of their sins. They've always believed in God, but they just thought that He could not love someone like them. So this person becomes born again spiritually and becomes a child of God.

So they do well for 3 or 4 days, but they are withdrawing badly from the drugs. In a moment of weakness, they do drugs. And this person carries on the fight not to do drugs for 4 or 5 years. Successful for a little while, but falls again back into it.

The person cannot survive without living with their significant other, so they still live in sin with another person, sexually.

Is this person then not saved? Will God give up on them because they keep failing to conquer sin?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Very true.

I have a question based on the reality of what people are like and who we are as human beings.

If I meet someone who is really messed up in sin, let's say for instance they are into drugs, not only into drugs but addicted to them. And they live with their boyfriend/girlfriend also addicted to drugs. This person swears like a sailor and has a lot of problems. They're lives are just a hot mess. I mean the worst.

So, one day I'm talking with them about Jesus Christ and invite them to come to church with me on Sunday. They are not sure they really want to but they have hit rock bottom and maybe what I say is true so they will give it a shot and go to church with me. So we go to church and that person realizes that they have messed up their lives and they want and need a Savior to forgive them of their sins. They've always believed in God, but they just thought that He could not love someone like them. So this person becomes born again spiritually and becomes a child of God.

So they do well for 3 or 4 days, but they are withdrawing badly from the drugs. In a moment of weakness, they do drugs. And this person carries on the fight not to do drugs for 4 or 5 years. Successful for a little while, but falls again back into it.

The person cannot survive without living with their significant other, so they still live in sin with another person, sexually.

Is this person then not saved? Will God give up on them because they keep failing to conquer sin?

Why would that person be saved? They are living in grevious sin that Paul lists several times in the New Testament whereby they will not inherit the Kingdom of God (Galatians 5:19-21) (Ephesians 5) (Colossians 3) (1 Corinthians 6).

For what makes the sin of fornication you mentioned any different than say child abuse, or the sin of rape, or the sin of murder, or the sin of idolatry? The short answer is that there is no difference. A person cannot habitually live in sin and abide in Christ and be saved. It just doesn't work like that. God's grace is not there to give a person a license to sin. God's grace is there for us so as to be forgiven and to overcome sin and not be a slave to it. For Jesus came to set the captives free. Jesus Christ was manifested to destroy the works of the devil (1 John 3:8).


...

 

[sdowney717]

Very true.

I have a question based on the reality of what people are like and who we are as human beings.

If I meet someone who is really messed up in sin, let's say for instance they are into drugs, not only into drugs but addicted to them. And they live with their boyfriend/girlfriend also addicted to drugs. This person swears like a sailor and has a lot of problems. They're lives are just a hot mess. I mean the worst.

So, one day I'm talking with them about Jesus Christ and invite them to come to church with me on Sunday. They are not sure they really want to but they have hit rock bottom and maybe what I say is true so they will give it a shot and go to church with me. So we go to church and that person realizes that they have messed up their lives and they want and need a Savior to forgive them of their sins. They've always believed in God, but they just thought that He could not love someone like them. So this person becomes born again spiritually and becomes a child of God.

So they do well for 3 or 4 days, but they are withdrawing badly from the drugs. In a moment of weakness, they do drugs. And this person carries on the fight not to do drugs for 4 or 5 years. Successful for a little while, but falls again back into it.

The person cannot survive without living with their significant other, so they still live in sin with another person, sexually.

Is this person then not saved? Will God give up on them because they keep failing to conquer sin?

Scripture tells us this about that type of situation, IF they name themselves a christian brother or sister.
1 Cor 5
Immorality Must Be Judged
9 I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. 10 Yet Icertainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.

12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.”

Such persons God says to cast out of the church, if God has not cast them out of the church already by circumstance. there are other verses that say this same thing. We judge those in the church, God judges those outside.