True Justification, works of the Law of Moses, & Conditional Security

[Bible Highlighter]

The person who has been truly born again of the Holy Spirit wants in their heart to obey. Because that is so, they do not need to link being saved by Grace alone, through faith alone to works. Because they love God they automatically want to obey him. Therefore they do not need the penalty of sin hanging over their head like the sword of Damocles waiting to be thrust into their heart if they do not perform perfect
This is what you seem unable to understand
I can understand well, if a person doesn't in their heart truly love God, and only wants to be a Christian so they might avoid hell, they would then well take your view. For if the penalty for sin was removed from them they would go out and happily sin as much as they wanted
But a person who loves God cannot take that view, for we do not seek to offend the ones we truly love in our hearts

Sounds good at first glance, but then you also said we are to be found as sinners, too. So there goes that "obedience card" and that "loving God" card right out the window.


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[stuart lawrence]

Is repentance man directed or God directed? According to the Bible it is a God directed thing (and not man directed).

"In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth" (2 Timothy 2:25).


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That does not change the point of contention, or offer a defense of your position

 

[stuart lawrence]

Sounds good at first glance, but then you also said we are to be found as sinners, too. So there goes that "obedience card" right out the window.


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And that reply shows you have no understanding of the core of Pauls message of the justification/sanctification process.
As that is the most important thing for a Christian to understand that leaves you in a very vulnerable position.

But then, when I held to the beliefs you do now, I did not understand either.
I also note, you are once again failing to properly state my position on the emboldened. That is a sign of desperation and being unable to refute my stated belief according to scripture

 

[stuart lawrence]

Sounds good at first glance, but then you also said we are to be found as sinners, too. So there goes that "obedience card" and that "loving God" card right out the window.


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If you have a problem with Paul's Gospel message given to him by Christ himself to preach I would suggest you pray about it:

We who are Jews by birth and not sinful Gentiles 16 know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith ind]'>[d] Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

17 ‘But if, in seeking to be justified in Christ, we Jews find ourselves also among the sinners, doesn’t that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! 18 If I rebuild what I destroyed, then I really would be a law-breaker Gal2:15-18

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Did you not say we are to be found as sinners according to Galatians? Do you not believe 1 John 1:8 says that we have no sin we deceive our selves? Meaning, you think 1 John 1:8 is saying you must have sin in your life or your deceiving yourself. Is that not correct? But doesn't that view on 1 John 1:8 conflict with 1 John 2:3-4?

Anyways, if you are saying you are a sinner (and that is your position that you are indeed telling me), then you cannot also say you obey God because of the new birth. One cannot break God's laws and also be in obedience to Him. It would be a contradiction.


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[stuart lawrence]

That does not change the point of contention, or offer a defense of your position

But for anyone knew reading these posts, I will once again state for what must be at least the fifth time. It takes time to cross over from being a slave of sin to a slave of righteousness as Paul clearly states. However, someone who cannot understand beyond the literal letter cannot comprehend the spiritual truth revealed in Paul's letters

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If you have a problem with Paul's Gospel message given to him by Christ himself to preach I would suggest you pray about it:

We who are Jews by birth and not sinful Gentiles 16 know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith ind]'>[d] Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

17 ‘But if, in seeking to be justified in Christ, we Jews find ourselves also among the sinners, doesn’t that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! 18 If I rebuild what I destroyed, then I really would be a law-breaker Gal2:15-18

Rebuild what exactly?


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[Bible Highlighter]

But for anyone knew reading these posts, I will once again state for what must be at least the fifth time. It takes time to cross over from being a slave of sin to a slave of righteousness as Paul clearly states. However, someone who cannot understand beyond the literal letter cannot comprehend the spiritual truth revealed in Paul's letters

So you are now claiming to be a slave to righteousness? How can that be if you said before that we must be found as sinners? How can that be if your view on 1 John 1:8 is saying that we must have sin in our life or we are deceiving ourselves?


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[Bible Highlighter]

Anyways, gotta go. Please have a great day and think about what I said.

May God bless you.


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[stuart lawrence]

Did you not say we are to be found as sinners according to Galatians? Do you not believe 1 John 1:8 says that we have no sin we deceive our selves? Meaning, you think 1 John 1:8 is saying you must have sin in your life or your deceiving yourself. Is that not correct? But doesn't that view on 1 John 1:8 conflict with 1 John 2:3-4?

Anyways, if you are saying you are a sinner (and that is your position that you are indeed telling me), then you cannot also say you obey God because of the new birth. One cannot break God's laws and also be in obedience to Him. It would be a contradiction.


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The first paragraph of your post makes no sense at all.
The second paragraph once again shows you have no understanding at all of the justification/sanctification process.
Paul states we seek this justification(crossing over) by faith in Christ, and it takes time. You are saying this justification is achieved by works of the law, which completely contradicts the core message of Paul. For you hinge everything during this time notr on faith in Christ but ceasing sin i9mmediatley, which as we all know is works of the law.
It is incredible how what Paul states so often and so emphatically is understood by well less than half those who attend Christian churches

 

[stuart lawrence]

So you are now claiming to be a slave to righteousness? How can that be if you said before that we must be found as sinners? How can that be if your view on 1 John 1:8 is saying that we must have sin in our life or we are deceiving ourselves?


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Once again your understanding of the justification/sanctification process of the Christian is non existent as far as I can see.
Paul plainly tells us we have to cross over from being a slave of sin to a slave of righteousness's and it takes time. He states while this crossing over is taking place we will be found to be sinners. He doesn't say once we have crossed over we will be found to be evident sinners(though we will not have achieved sinless perfection)

You seem unable to even grasp the basics of what Paul is stating

 

[stuart lawrence]

Anyways, gotta go. Please have a great day and think about what I said.

May God bless you.


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Well I have thought about what you said, and it saddens me
You have a great day too

 

[stuart lawrence]

So you are now claiming to be a slave to righteousness? How can that be if you said before that we must be found as sinners? How can that be if your view on 1 John 1:8 is saying that we must have sin in our life or we are deceiving ourselves?


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I am going to repeat what I have twice previously told you. A very well known Baptist minister in the UK stated 85% of Evangeliccals/charasmatics(of which I am assuming you are one) do not understand the justification/sanctification process for the Christian. You are evidence that goes towards showing that statement being correct

 

[stuart lawrence]

Rebuild what exactly?


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We who are Jews by birth and not sinful Gentiles 16 know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith ind]'>[d] Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

17 ‘But if, in seeking to be justified in Christ, we Jews find ourselves also among the sinners, doesn’t that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! 18 If I rebuild what I destroyed, then I really would be a law-breaker


Oh Jason. What has Paul ceaselessly stated in his letters? You cannot have a righteousness before God of observing the law(he never says that is apart from the Ten Commandments) only one of faith in Christ.
He stresses in verse 16 the same thing. No justification by works of the law(observing the law) but one of faith in Christ
Now if Paul rebuilt that which he has destroyed and once again lived under a righteousness of observing the law(he strove to defeat the sin to be justified in God's sight), he would fail in his efforts and simply prove he was a lawbreaker

These verses are hugely important for Christians to understand
However, I know you will never accept them, but others read these posts, so I am happy to keep reiterating the points

 

[ToBeLoved]

Sounds good at first glance, but then you also said we are to be found as sinners, too. So there goes that "obedience card" and that "loving God" card right out the window.


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Why do you think that loving God holds so little value?

It is the obedience card that holds little value. Obedience that is not motivated by love is motivated by fear.

Love is much stronger than fear.

That is why I can tell there is a problem with your theology. The Word even says that love casts out all fear.

There is a lot of truth in that. Definately worth deeper thought.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If one is not holding the obedience card then they are holding onto the sin card. Yes, believers can honestly struggle with sin (but even this struggle, they confess their sin and they seek to overcome it and not to abide in it). For even Paul essentially says sin is of our old life.


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[Bible Highlighter]

As for fear: The Bible says the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom (Proverbs 9:10).

As for perfect love casting out fear: Jesus said if you love him, you will keep his commandments (John 14:15). John says the love of God is perfected by keeping his Word (1 John 2:5).



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[Bible Highlighter]

I am going to repeat what I have twice previously told you. A very well known Baptist minister in the UK stated 85% of Evangeliccals/charasmatics(of which I am assuming you are one) do not understand the justification/sanctification process for the Christian. You are evidence that goes towards showing that statement being correct

That's not proof of anything. One, why should I trust this guy over the Word of God? Two, there are a lot of people who do not understand certain false beliefs that people push into the Bible. That does not make those false beliefs true. In other words, I see your view of Justification as a false belief; And like other false beliefs, many are simply unaware of them.


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[ToBeLoved]

If one is not holding the obedience card then they are holding onto the sin card. Yes, believers can honestly struggle with sin (but even this struggle, they confess their sin and they seek to overcome it and not to abide in it). For even Paul essentially says sin is of our old life.


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Just becuae they may be stuggling does not mean that we are lost. We amost alway chose to movew like a Child of God

 

[stuart lawrence]

That's not proof of anything. One, why should I trust this guy over the Word of God? Two, there are a lot of people who do not understand certain false beliefs that people push into the Bible. That does not make those false beliefs true. In other words, I see your view of Justification as a false belief; And like other false beliefs, many are simply unaware of them.


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I am afraid Jason you are in a lot of trouble in my view if you actually believe many of the things you say in conversation.
My view of justification/sanctification is not wrong. I agree with Charles spurgeon, someone known as the prince of preachers. Few ministers such as he actually forthrightly preach the truth of grace, but all who do see their church services packed out, for there is great power in the truth of the cross of Christ. For you to state it is a false belief, when given the evidence of the scriptures to back it up does not bode well for you. As I keep telling you, I once had your beliefs, so I know where you are at, but I was honest, I knew I could never measure up to what I then believed and preached
But as you gave stated. If you believed a righteouteousness of observing the law were removed from you you would be apathetic about God and use that knowledge as a licence to sin, I am afraid you have shown a lack of love for God, I am sorry but it can be no other way .
The true offence of the cross is it cuts out the individual being able to claim the credit for their salvation, and that is why so many refuse to accept it. They may say with words it is all about what Jesus does in us, but their whole emphasis is in truth on what man must do, not what God will do and Christ has done. They want a righteousness of their own before God in their hearts, rather than a righteousness solely of what Jesus did for them at Calvary. Hence Paul writes:
Brothers if i was still preaching circumcision(ie law) why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offence of the cross has been abolished Gal5:11. I could not love God in my youth, for the only people who can truly love him as he wants them to love him are those who accept grace, those who know they have no righteousness before him of obedience to the law. They are the people who in their hearts seek glory for God, not themselves, for they have accepted the truth and not taken offence at the true message of calvary.