Trolley Problem and God

[Clizby WampusCat]

I'm going off the rails on a crazy trolley.....



Is that like, "it's not my fault officer!?" (as handcuffs go on)

[Exo 23:3 NIV] 3 and do not show favoritism to a poor person in a lawsuit.
[Exo 23:6 NIV] 6 "Do not deny justice to your poor people in their lawsuits.
[Act 10:34 NIV] 34 Then Peter began to speak: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism
[Rom 2:11 NIV] 11 For God does not show favoritism.
[Gal 2:6 NIV] 6 As for those who were held in high esteem--whatever they were makes no difference to me; God does not show favoritism--they added nothing to my message.

It is not like this at all. If I break a law I do not know if in our society, the judge can point to the law and say this is why you are being punished. Not so with Gods law. No one has demonstrated that Gods law is real. No one is responsible to keep a law that the judge just makes up.

Your close, God is easy.

Belief is easy of you don't require good evidence for belief.

 

[Paul4JC]

It is not like this at all. If I break a law I do not know if in our society, the judge can point to the law and say this is why you are being punished. Not so with Gods law. No one has demonstrated that Gods law is real. No one is responsible to keep a law that the judge just makes up.

Isn't the OT full of God's law? (Even courts used to use a bible for taking oath.) Have you read the 10 commandments and OT law? You think it was just made up, How? Israel tried to keep Gods law for centuries. Jesus fulfilled it so we aren't bound to it now. [Heb 9:15, whole chapter] [Gal 3:6-14]

Belief is easy of you don't require good evidence for belief.

Christ gives you all the "evidence" you need. You mentioned before that you were a "christian" for 18 years. (I asked before) what was that all about? What denomination or doctrine did you follow? I think it all is linked to why you don't believe in God now. I'm so fortunate to meet God outside of organized religion and "Christianity" but that's another story.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Isn't the OT full of God's law? (Even courts used to use a bible for taking oath.) Have you read the 10 commandments and OT law? You think it was just made up, How? Israel tried to keep Gods law for centuries. Jesus fulfilled it so we aren't bound to it now. [Heb 9:15, whole chapter] [Gal 3:6-14]

Provide evidence that the OT law is from a God.

Christ gives you all the "evidence" you need. You mentioned before that you were a "christian" for 18 years. (I asked before) what was that all about? What denomination or doctrine did you follow? I think it all is linked to why you don't believe in God now. I'm so fortunate to meet God outside of organized religion and "Christianity" but that's another story.

What evidence is that? How do I know Christ is giving me any evidence.

I won't tell you what I believed because it does not matter. Provide evidence for the God that you believe in please.

 

[Paul4JC]

What evidence is that? How do I know Christ is giving me any evidence.

You read his words again. It's all there in his life and words, everything else is "bonus material"

Provide evidence that the OT law is from a God.

I won't tell you what I believed because it does not matter. Provide evidence for the God that you believe in please.

"What do you mean, "I don't believe in God"?
I talk to him everyday"

It matters cause there plenty of false teachings in "Christian" circles, and seems your were victim to one.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

You read his words again. It's all there in his life and words, everything else is "bonus material"

You don't seem to understand. Why should I believe what the bibles says is true?

"What do you mean, "I don't believe in God"?
I talk to him everyday"

Megadeth is cool and all but this has nothing to do with what I said. I never said you don't believe in god (which you have told me down below). Why should I believe in god? Your personal conversation with god is not very good evidence for me. What is your conversations like with Jesus? Is it just the text, is it audible, do you see him or just thoughts in your mind or something else. What is it?

It matters cause there plenty of false teachings in "Christian" circles, and seems your were victim to one.

Here is you not using skepticism. You have already concluded that I was not a real christian without hearing one thing about my faith. How can you possible know this?

I won't tell you because you don't need to know to show me evidence that god exists. And I have been down this road before. As soon as you disagree with one thing I believed then you will just write me off as I never was a "real" christian so you can be OK with your faith. The fact is no two Christians have the same beliefs. If you have evidence God exists present it, if not, then I guess we are done. If you had good evidence you would just present it instead of just saying to read the text.

 

[Paul4JC]

You don't seem to understand. Why should I believe what the bibles says is true?

Megadeth is cool and all but this has nothing to do with what I said. I never said you don't believe in god (which you have told me down below). Why should I believe in god? Your personal conversation with god is not very good evidence for me. What is your conversations like with Jesus? Is it just the text, is it audible, do you see him or just thoughts in your mind or something else. What is it?

Here is you not using skepticism. You have already concluded that I was not a real christian without hearing one thing about my faith. How can you possible know this?

I won't tell you because you don't need to know to show me evidence that god exists. And I have been down this road before. As soon as you disagree with one thing I believed then you will just write me off as I never was a "real" christian so you can be OK with your faith. The fact is no two Christians have the same beliefs. If you have evidence God exists present it, if not, then I guess we are done. If you had good evidence you would just present it instead of just saying to read the text.

(Bro you make this all one way street. The ball in your court too, but you only have the same dead end question. You want to put this god of your fabrication on the witness stand, but you exempt yourself.... Still I'll get back to later. God bless.)

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

(Bro you make this all one way street. The ball in your court too, but you only have the same dead end question. You want to put this god of your fabrication on the witness stand, but you exempt yourself.... Still I'll get back to later. God bless.)

What is in my court? I am making no claims. You are making a claim that god exists. The ball is all in your court.

 

[Paul4JC]

You don't seem to understand. Why should I believe what the bibles says is true?

I understand your making a choice not to believe.

Megadeth is cool and all but this has nothing to do with what I said. I never said you don't believe in god (which you have told me down below). Why should I believe in god? Your personal conversation with god is not very good evidence for me. What is your conversations like with Jesus? Is it just the text, is it audible, do you see him or just thoughts in your mind or something else. What is it?

Dave Mustaine is said to have faith in Christ and David Ellefson is also a Lutheran pastor. From Megadeth to Life

Long story short, I met the Lord Jesus about 36 years ago by reading the Gospel of John over and over. I didn't know any Christians at the time. Since then, I experience him on a daily basis. I've seen many amazing things in my life with the Lord. If it was fake, I would have dumped it years ago. I'm not perfect, but he's seen through thick and thin. He's real, yes I pray daily to him. Just like talking to anyone else, but better. It can be verbal, it can be in my mind, it's communing.

Here is you not using skepticism. You have already concluded that I was not a real christian without hearing one thing about my faith. How can you possible know this?

I won't tell you because you don't need to know to show me evidence that god exists. And I have been down this road before. As soon as you disagree with one thing I believed then you will just write me off as I never was a "real" christian so you can be OK with your faith. The fact is no two Christians have the same beliefs. If you have evidence God exists present it, if not, then I guess we are done. If you had good evidence you would just present it instead of just saying to read the text.

No not looking to write you off, just trying to understand where your coming from. You seem to have some Biblical ideas, but then, it's not clear what your trying to say. It's more than "give me evidence."

Now if your talking about God, and it's then your also talking about other gods.(There in the Bible too. Genesis 1:1 (NIV)) That's why I used small g earlier cause your god idea is not the God I know. I'm not a debating type, you'll get plenty of those here, and I'm no intellectual, (neither were the disciples of Christ (Act 4:13). I guess that sums it up, you want intellectual answers, I give you faith in Christ, it's spiritual not intellectual. Your dealing with another god. The god of this world. [2Co 4:4]

 

[BNR32FAN]

Explain to me how believing the true god is one is the same thing as believing that god is three? Logically they cannot be talking about the same god?

It’s really very simple, Muslims, Jews, and Christians all agree that their God created Adam & Eve, they all agree that their God flooded the earth killing everyone except Noah and his family, they all agree that their God led Moses and the Israelites our of Egypt and gave Moses the Torah. So it’s obvious they are all referring to the same entity because there are no others gods that did all these things. They simply disagree on things God may have said or did and certain characteristics of this one God. Think of it like this. Let’s say I’m talking with a friend and he says “man have you seen Enter The Dragon, Bruce Lee was an awesome fighter”. Then I reply “yeah that is an awesome movie but my favorite it Fist Of Fury, I think that’s his best movie of all time”. Obviously we’ve just established that we’re talking about the same person. Now my friend says “did you know he was killed by the martial arts underground for teaching Americans martial arts?” And I reply “no, actually he died of an allergic reaction to a prescription medication someone gave him”. Now at this point we haven’t started talking about two different people we just have conflicting information or beliefs about the same person. Obviously at least one of us has to be wrong. Incorrect information or beliefs about someone does not imply that we’re talking about two different Bruce Lees just like different information or beliefs about God doesn’t mean that Muslims, Jews, and Christians are worshipping three different gods because their agreement on many of the things He did are the same. That’s a clear indication that they all worship the same God but have different beliefs about this one God.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

I understand your making a choice not to believe.

This is an impossibility. And you are then assuming you know what is in my mind which you cannot know. I do not believe any god exists. It is impossible to believe something that you are not convinced of. I am not convinced a god exists. Can you choose to believe the earth has four moons? Why not? Can you choose to not believe the earth has only one sun? Why not?

Dave Mustaine is said to have faith in Christ and David Ellefson is also a Lutheran pastor. From Megadeth to Life

Ok.

Long story short, I met the Lord Jesus about 36 years ago by reading the Gospel of John over and over. I didn't know any Christians at the time. Since then, I experience him on a daily basis. I've seen many amazing things in my life with the Lord. If it was fake, I would have dumped it years ago. I'm not perfect, but he's seen through thick and thin. He's real, yes I pray daily to him. Just like talking to anyone else, but better. It can be verbal, it can be in my mind, it's communing.

How do you hear God? How do you experience Him on a daily basis?

No not looking to write you off, just trying to understand where your coming from. You seem to have some Biblical ideas, but then, it's not clear what your trying to say. It's more than "give me evidence."

I want to know what is true and what is false. I want sufficient evidence to believe something is true. If a god exists I would like to know that. But so far there is insufficient evidence for me to believe. All I am looking for is evidence that will convince me if that exists.

Now if your talking about God, and it's then your also talking about other gods.(There in the Bible too. Genesis 1:1 (NIV)) That's why I used small g earlier cause your god idea is not the God I know. I'm not a debating type, you'll get plenty of those here, and I'm no intellectual, (neither were the disciples of Christ (Act 4:13). I guess that sums it up, you want intellectual answers, I give you faith in Christ, it's spiritual not intellectual. Your dealing with another god. The god of this world. [2Co 4:4]

No, that is what you believe. I do not believe any god exists. Your experience is not sufficient for me to believe.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

It’s really very simple, Muslims, Jews, and Christians all agree that their God created Adam & Eve, they all agree that their God flooded the earth killing everyone except Noah and his family, they all agree that their God led Moses and the Israelites our of Egypt and gave Moses the Torah. So it’s obvious they are all referring to the same entity because there are no others gods that did all these things. They simply disagree on things God may have said or did and certain characteristics of this one God. Think of it like this. Let’s say I’m talking with a friend and he says “man have you seen Enter The Dragon, Bruce Lee was an awesome fighter”. Then I reply “yeah that is an awesome movie but my favorite it Fist Of Fury, I think that’s his best movie of all time”. Obviously we’ve just established that we’re talking about the same person. Now my friend says “did you know he was killed by the martial arts underground for teaching Americans martial arts?” And I reply “no, actually he died of an allergic reaction to a prescription medication someone gave him”. Now at this point we haven’t started talking about two different people we just have conflicting information or beliefs about the same person. Obviously at least one of us has to be wrong. Incorrect information or beliefs about someone does not imply that we’re talking about two different Bruce Lees just like different information or beliefs about God doesn’t mean that Muslims, Jews, and Christians are worshipping three different gods because their agreement on many of the things He did are the same. That’s a clear indication that they all worship the same God but have different beliefs about this one God.

Ok.

 

[FireDragon76]

I came across this in a book I am reading. Most people are aware of the ethical thought experiment trolley problem. I copied it here:

There is a runaway trolley barreling down the railway ahead, on the tracks, there are five people tied up and unable to move. The trolley is headed straight for them. You are standing some distance off in the train yard, next to a lever. If you pull this lever, the trolley will switch to a different set of tracks. However, you notice that there is one person on the side track. You have two options:

1. Do nothing and allow the trolley to kill the five people on the main track.
2. Pull the lever, diverting the trolley onto the side track where it will kill one person.

Which is the more ethical option? Or, more simply: What is the right thing to do?

There are many different thoughts about what is the most ethical thing for you to do. Some will say to pull the lever to kill one over five, some will say do nothing is more moral. Lets turn this around a little. Lets say that the trolley is barreling down on one person standing on the tracks and not the five. Most people would say that it would be morally wrong, without knowing anything else about the situation, that pulling the lever to kill the five instead of the one would be immoral.

Lets see how God answers this trolley problem.

Luke 13:22-30 NIV
"Then Jesus went through the towns and villages, teaching as he made his way to Jerusalem. Someone asked him, “Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?”

He said to them, “Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, ‘Sir, open the door for us.’

“But he will answer, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from.’
“Then you will say, ‘We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.’
“But he will reply, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!’

“There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out. People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God. Indeed there are those who are last who will be first, and first who will be last.” ~ Jesus

Matthew 7:13-14 NIV
“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." ~ Jesus

These verses indicate that most will not be saved. "Many" in Luke seems a little ambiguous but a "few" as said in Matthew is clear that at least more than half or most will not be saved. Probably a lot less than half. So how does this relate to the trolley problem?

God created the universe in a way that He knows that most people will not be saved. God chose this as the way the universe will work. God is pulling the lever to kill the five to save the one.

Now I bet many are already typing a response to say we get to choose salvation because we have free will. This is not a response to the question. If God sees the end of his creation prior to creating it then chooses to create the universe in a way that causes most people to not be saved does not allow for anyone to have free will in choosing to be saved. If God wanted a world where most people are saved, or even all, he could have created that universe. He admittedly did not.

God chose to create a world where most people are sacrificed so the saved person can be saved. As a nonbeliever I would be sacrificed eternally, unlike Jesus, for the believers salvation. When a christian chooses to believe to be saved they are condemning an unbeliever.

God could have made a world where we maintain free will to follow him and have the proper information to make an informed choice. He chose not to do this. The idea that most people will be unsaved and destroyed/tortured is the result of choices by God and zero choices by humanity.

If Thanos is a super-villain for killing half of all living things in the universe then isn't God a better supervillain for killing more than half? Luckily like Thanos, it is probably made up.

"Few" does not necessarily imply less than half in its historical context, given that Jewish rabbis did not teach using Greek philosophical notions of precise use of language.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

"Few" does not necessarily imply less than half in its historical context, given that Jewish rabbis did not teach using Greek philosophical notions of precise use of language.

Right, the bible doesn't really say what it actually says. Not a very convincing apologetic. Few in English means a small number. It is a contrast to verse 13 where it says that many enter the broad gate that leads to destruction. So you are telling me that few and many here mean the opposite of what was translated? That makes little sense.

Why would God allow the bible to be translated to mislead us?

 

[FireDragon76]

Right, the bible doesn't really say what it actually says. Not a very convincing apologetic. Few in English means a small number. It is a contrast to verse 13 where it says that many enter the broad gate that leads to destruction. So you are telling me that few and many here mean the opposite of what was translated? That makes little sense.

Why would God allow the bible to be translated to mislead us?

That's your spin on it, not mine. It's like asking "Do you still beat your wife". The only misleading here is someone suggesting there is only one correct interpretation of a text- the worst possible, most damning interpretation.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

That's your spin on it, not mine. It's like asking "Do you still beat your wife". The only misleading here is someone suggesting there is only one correct interpretation of a text- the worst possible, most damning interpretation.

No, the words are translated into English as "few" and "many" in almost all translations. These have common usage meanings in English. If this does not convey the true meaning of the passages then why would God allow that? Isn't God causing confusion?

 

[FireDragon76]

No, the words are translated into English as "few" and "many" in almost all translations. These have common usage meanings in English. If this does not convey the true meaning of the passages then why would God allow that? Isn't God causing confusion?

I don't have the space to fully spell out why biblical hermeneutics can be more complicated than you suggest, but let me suggest you're grossly oversimplifying an entire religious tradition by only looking at the biblical text in one rather narrow way, one that is distinctly Protestant fundamentalist.

 

[ISteveB]

I came across this in a book I am reading. Most people are aware of the ethical thought experiment trolley problem. I copied it here:

There is a runaway trolley barreling down the railway ahead, on the tracks, there are five people tied up and unable to move. The trolley is headed straight for them. You are standing some distance off in the train yard, next to a lever. If you pull this lever, the trolley will switch to a different set of tracks. However, you notice that there is one person on the side track. You have two options:

1. Do nothing and allow the trolley to kill the five people on the main track.
2. Pull the lever, diverting the trolley onto the side track where it will kill one person.

Which is the more ethical option? Or, more simply: What is the right thing to do?

There are many different thoughts about what is the most ethical thing for you to do. Some will say to pull the lever to kill one over five, some will say do nothing is more moral. Lets turn this around a little. Lets say that the trolley is barreling down on one person standing on the tracks and not the five. Most people would say that it would be morally wrong, without knowing anything else about the situation, that pulling the lever to kill the five instead of the one would be immoral.

Lets see how God answers this trolley problem.

Luke 13:22-30 NIV
"Then Jesus went through the towns and villages, teaching as he made his way to Jerusalem. Someone asked him, “Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?”

He said to them, “Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, ‘Sir, open the door for us.’

“But he will answer, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from.’
“Then you will say, ‘We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.’
“But he will reply, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!’

“There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out. People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God. Indeed there are those who are last who will be first, and first who will be last.” ~ Jesus

Matthew 7:13-14 NIV
“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." ~ Jesus

These verses indicate that most will not be saved. "Many" in Luke seems a little ambiguous but a "few" as said in Matthew is clear that at least more than half or most will not be saved. Probably a lot less than half. So how does this relate to the trolley problem?

God created the universe in a way that He knows that most people will not be saved. God chose this as the way the universe will work. God is pulling the lever to kill the five to save the one.

Now I bet many are already typing a response to say we get to choose salvation because we have free will. This is not a response to the question. If God sees the end of his creation prior to creating it then chooses to create the universe in a way that causes most people to not be saved does not allow for anyone to have free will in choosing to be saved. If God wanted a world where most people are saved, or even all, he could have created that universe. He admittedly did not.

God chose to create a world where most people are sacrificed so the saved person can be saved. As a nonbeliever I would be sacrificed eternally, unlike Jesus, for the believers salvation. When a christian chooses to believe to be saved they are condemning an unbeliever.

God could have made a world where we maintain free will to follow him and have the proper information to make an informed choice. He chose not to do this. The idea that most people will be unsaved and destroyed/tortured is the result of choices by God and zero choices by humanity.

If Thanos is a super-villain for killing half of all living things in the universe then isn't God a better supervillain for killing more than half? Luckily like Thanos, it is probably made up.

Intersting.
There's a huge difference between your idea of God, and Thanos.
Thanos doesn't give his victims a choice.
YHVH however does.

Jesus also said---

Whosoever will believe, shall not perish, but have everlasting life.

God said in Joel, and is reiterated in Romans 10---

Whosoever shall call upon the name of YHVH shall be saved.

So.... as the quote which you provided states--- you have a choice in the matter.

I.e., strive/give yourself over to entering in....

Careful.... according to Romans 1, the closing off of the mind, and the darkening of the heart has begun.....
You're twisting God to be like corruptible man.

21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Intersting.
There's a huge difference between your idea of God, and Thanos.
Thanos doesn't give his victims a choice.
YHVH however does.

Jesus also said---

Whosoever will believe, shall not perish, but have everlasting life.

God said in Joel, and is reiterated in Romans 10---

Whosoever shall call upon the name of YHVH shall be saved.

So.... as the quote which you provided states--- you have a choice in the matter.

I.e., strive/give yourself over to entering in....

Careful.... according to Romans 1, the closing off of the mind, and the darkening of the heart has begun.....
You're twisting God to be like corruptible man.

21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man

My entire post was about this issue of whether we have a choice or not. If God gives us a choice to follow Him and He knows that most will not follow Him, as Jesus says, then God created a universe where He knew most people would go to hell. God created the conditions that would result in most people going to hell, hence switching the trolley to kill the 5 instead of the one. So giving us a choice is irrelevant.

 

[ISteveB]

My entire post was about this issue of whether we have a choice or not. If God gives us a choice to follow Him and He knows that most will not follow Him, as Jesus says, then God created a universe where He knew most people would go to hell. God created the conditions that would result in most people going to hell, hence switching the trolley to kill the 5 instead of the one. So giving us a choice is irrelevant.

No. It's not irrelevant.

You're being given the choice of where you want to spend your eternity.
In a paradise designed explicitly with you in mind.
Or a place which was explicitly not designed with you in mind.
People who go to hell do so because they don't like God's way of doing things.
They are however deliberately choosing hell.

Just because others choose hell, that does not mean you have to choose hell...... unless that's really want you want.

So.... where would you prefer?
Paradise or misery?
It's going to last forever, either way.

My questions is--- why would you choose misery, when paradise is being offered to you?

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

No. It's not irrelevant.

You're being given the choice of where you want to spend your eternity.
In a paradise designed explicitly with you in mind.
Or a place which was explicitly not designed with you in mind.
People who go to hell do so because they don't like God's way of doing things.
They are however deliberately choosing hell.

Just because others choose hell, that does not mean you have to choose hell...... unless that's really want you want.

So.... where would you prefer?
Paradise or misery?
It's going to last forever, either way.

My questions is--- why would you choose misery, when paradise is being offered to you?

All you are doing is avoiding the problem. At least address the issue of God creating a world where He knows in advance that most will go to hell.