Trolley Problem and God

[BNR32FAN]

I get what you are saying. But please acknowledge that the 'same god' cannot have opposing moral predicates. This would be a logical contradiction.

Please read post 80

 

[cvanwey]

Muslims, Jews, and Christians worship the same God that created Adam & Eve, the same God that told Noah to build the ark, the same God that killed all except 8 people in the flood, the same God that made a covenant with Abraham, the same God that guided Moses and the Israelites from Egypt to Israel, the same God that gave Moses the Torah, the same God that blessed David when he defeated Goliath. Muslims, Jews, and Christians believe the Torah and the psalms are the inspired word of God.

Yes, noted. See below...

Muslims believe in the gospel of Jesus Christ but they believe it has been corrupted over time.

It's a little more than this... Jesus states He is the truth, the way, and the light. He states that no one gets to heaven, but only and exclusively directly through Him, and Him alone. Did He state this, yes or no?

This is what I mean by conflicting 'moral' predicates/pronouncements. Either Jesus commands the above moral absolute, or He doesn't. If He exists, then it's safe to say he probably commands this, right? If He does not exist postmortem, then the question becomes irrelevant.

A Muslim's 'moral' absolutes do not involve Jesus as THE being to address, as their gateway. He is merely a side piece.

Just because there are differences in their beliefs doesn’t mean they worship a different God. Here’s an example. Some people believe Trump is responsible for the Covid outbreak in America, some don’t. Are these people talking about two different Trumps?

In regards to Trump, he either did or did not start the virus. It is a true presented dichotomy. But you present a false analogy. A better analogy might be...

Donald Trump's son states that to get to His dad Donald, you must first give him a 20 minute back massage. In doing so, you can then get to Donald Trump. We are talking about 'the son' of God. Morality involves worship to His claimed son. Muslims do not.

Just like how we are talking about the son of Trump...... Proper morality dictates service to his son to get to his dad.

Some people believe Bruce Lee was the best fighter in his time, some don’t. Are they believing in two different Bruce Lees? Just because people have different beliefs about someone doesn’t mean they’re beliefs are about two different people.

Another false analogy. A better analogy would be...

Did Bruce Lee himself STATE he was the best fighter? Yes or no? And regardless of if he did or did not say this, it still does not matter...

Having a general opinion of one of his attributes hardly qualifies as claiming there was two different people. It only demonstrates that some think he was a great fighter, and others didn't. Still the same Bruce Lee though....

Only one God greater Adam. Only one God told Noah to build the ark. Only one God flooded the earth killing all but 8 people. Only one God gave Moses the Torah. Whether you want to call Him God, Allah, Jehovah, Yahweh, Elohim, Creator, Maker, One, The Alpha and Omega, The First and Last, The King of Kings, I Am, The Almighty, Lord, The Lord of Lords, Heavenly Father, Theos, The God of Israel, The God of Jacob, The God of Abraham, it’s still the same one and only God.

Only one of these three religions claims a 'Holy Trinity'. And as I stated in #79:

"I get what you are saying. But please acknowledge that the 'same god' cannot have opposing moral predicates. This would be a logical contradiction."

Please see above

 

[BNR32FAN]

Yes, noted. See below...



It's a little more than this... Jesus states He is the truth, the way, and the light. He states that no one gets to heaven, but only and exclusively directly through Him, and Him alone. Did He state this, yes or no?

This is what I mean by conflicting 'moral' predicates/pronouncements. Either Jesus commands the above moral absolute, or He doesn't. If He exists, then it's safe to say he probably commands this, right? If He does not exist postmortem, then the question becomes irrelevant.

A Muslim's 'moral' absolutes do not involve Jesus as THE being to address, as their gateway. He is merely a side piece.



In regards to Trump, he either did or did not start the virus. It is a true presented dichotomy. But you present a false analogy. A better analogy might be...

Donald Trump's son states that to get to His dad Donald, you must first give him a 20 minute back massage. In doing so, you can then get to Donald Trump. We are talking about 'the son' of God. Morality involves worship to His claimed son. Muslims do not.

Just like how we are talking about the son of Trump...... Proper morality dictates service to his son to get to his dad.



Another false analogy. A better analogy would be...

Did Bruce Lee himself STATE he was the best fighter? Yes or no? And regardless of if he did or did not say this, it still does not matter...

Having a general opinion of one of his attributes hardly qualifies as claiming there was two different people. It only demonstrates that some think he was a great fighter, and others didn't. Still the same Bruce Lee though....



Only one of these three religions claims a 'Holy Trinity'. And as I stated in #79:

"I get what you are saying. But please acknowledge that the 'same god' cannot have opposing moral predicates. This would be a logical contradiction."

Please see above

How many God’s created Adam & Eve, told Noah to build an ark, flooded the world killing everyone except Noah and his family, guided Moses and the Israelites out of Egypt, gave Moses the Torah, etc, etc? There are not two different Gods who did all these things. What we’re talking about is people’s beliefs about the same exact deity. People of different beliefs aren’t worshipping different Gods. It’s a simple matter of some people being wrong about God and some not being wrong. Two different beliefs about God does not create two different beings. Christians, Jews, and Muslims even have different beliefs about God within their religion. That doesn’t mean each person with a different belief is referring to a different deity it just means some are incorrect in their beliefs and some aren’t.

 

[cvanwey]

How many God’s created Adam & Eve, told Noah to build an ark, flooded the world killing everyone except Noah and his family, guided Moses and the Israelites out of Egypt, gave Moses the Torah, etc, etc? There are not two different Gods who did all these things. What we’re talking about is people’s beliefs about the same exact deity. People of different beliefs aren’t worshipping different Gods. It’s a simple matter of some people being wrong about God and some not being wrong. Two different beliefs about God does not create two different beings. Christians, Jews, and Muslims even have different beliefs about God within their religion. That doesn’t mean each person with a different belief is referring to a different deity it just means some are incorrect in their beliefs and some aren’t.

You are not getting what I'm saying. Let me try a differing approach. God provides objective moral standards, right? Which means they would not contradict, right?

God tells some to worship His son.

God tells other to kill infidels.

Would the same God present both concepts?

(Your) believed upon God claims He cloned Himself, sent Himself to earth, sacrifices Himself, to Himself, and wants everyone to acknowledge Him as THE gateway to heaven.

OR....

What the Muslims believe. Which is, at best, Jesus was just another prophet.

Your belief involves a HOLY TRINITY. This is the objective moral foundation. It is either true, or it is not true.

 

[BNR32FAN]

You are not getting what I'm saying. Let me try a differing approach. God provides objective moral standards, right? Which means they would not contradict, right?

God tells some to worship His son.

God tells other to kill infidels.

Would the same God present both concepts?

(Your) believed upon God claims He cloned Himself, sent Himself to earth, sacrifices Himself, to Himself, and wants everyone to acknowledge Him as THE gateway to heaven.

OR....

What the Muslims believe. Which is, at best, Jesus was just another prophet.

Your belief involves a HOLY TRINITY. This is the objective moral foundation. It is either true, or it is not true.

The different beliefs aren’t about two different Gods. There are no two different Gods that did these same exact deeds. They’re just two different beliefs about the same God. Please answer my question.

How many God’s created Adam & Eve, told Noah to build an ark, flooded the world killing everyone except Noah and his family, guided Moses and the Israelites out of Egypt, gave Moses the Torah, etc, etc?

How many God’s did these things?

 

[cvanwey]

How many God’s did these things?

Okay, you are still not picking up what I am putting down.

Holy Trinity - "the Christian Godhead as one God in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit"

And to answer your question, even more thoroughly, it's one God. As in all three claim monotheism, kinda...... But for all three Abrahamic beliefs, it's three completely differing Gods. Why? Each God possesses completely opposing moral predicates.

Can the same God have opposing moral absolutes? Would the same God split into threes for some, and not others?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Okay, you are still not picking up what I am putting down.

Holy Trinity - "the Christian Godhead as one God in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit"

And to answer your question, even more thoroughly, it's one God. As in all three claim monotheism, kinda...... But for all three Abrahamic beliefs, it's three completely differing Gods. Why? Each God possesses completely opposing moral predicates.

Can the same God have opposing moral absolutes? Would the same God split into threes for some, and not others?

There are no three Gods with different “moral predicates”. It’s a simple matter of who has the correct understanding of the only one God that is being referred to. If someone says Jim said be at work at 7am and another person says no Jim said be at work at 7pm they’re not talking about two different people named Jim. They’re talking about the same person but only one of them correctly understood what he said and the other didn’t. The incorrect person is not conjuring up a false Jim just because of his misunderstanding of what Jim actually said.

 

[cvanwey]

There are no three Gods with different “moral predicates”. It’s a simple matter of who has the correct understanding of the only one God that is being referred to. If someone says Jim said be at work at 7am and another person says no Jim said be at work at 7pm they’re not talking about two different people named Jim. They’re talking about the same person but only one of them correctly understood what he said and the other didn’t. The incorrect person is not conjuring up a false Jim just because of his misunderstanding of what Jim actually said.

Again, it's a little more than that

It's not mere misinterpretation of am (vs) pm. It is instead a completely opposing or mutually exclusive set of assertions and moral predicates.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Again, it's a little more than that

It's not mere misinterpretation of am (vs) pm. It is instead a completely opposing or mutually exclusive set of assertions and moral predicates.

The information that is misunderstood is irrelevant, it’s still some people claiming that a particular person said X and others claiming that same person said Y.

 

[cvanwey]

The information that is misunderstood is irrelevant, it’s still some people claiming that a particular person said X and others claiming that same person said Y.

Okay, this is a futile stand-still exchange. Yes, one entity did such said physical things. But it is clearly not the same entity; as the same entity likely does not have opposing absolute moral pronouncements given to His people.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Okay, this is a futile stand-still exchange. Yes, one entity did such said physical things. But it is clearly not the same entity; as the same entity likely does not have opposing absolute moral pronouncements given to His people.

Ok but all these entities don’t exist. Only one of them does and the only question here is who is correctly understanding that one entity that does exist.

 

[cvanwey]

Ok but all these entities don’t exist. Only one of them does and the only question here is who is correctly understanding that one entity that does exist.

Circle circle circle

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Muslims, Jews, and Christians worship the same God that created Adam & Eve, the same God that told Noah to build the ark, the same God that killed all except 8 people in the flood, the same God that made a covenant with Abraham, the same God that guided Moses and the Israelites from Egypt to Israel, the same God that gave Moses the Torah, the same God that blessed David when he defeated Goliath. Muslims, Jews, and Christians believe the Torah and the psalms are the inspired word of God.

Great. But they don't believe the same things about the core things as in how to be saved or who Jesus was.

Muslims believe in the gospel of Jesus Christ but they believe it has been corrupted over time. Just because there are differences in their beliefs doesn’t mean they worship a different God.

If they don't agree on whether Jesus is god, how can they worship the same God? They believe in and worship different ideas about God. If I believe my mom is white, 5'-4" tall, speaks English, is 110 lbs, long hair and is a mail person and my sister believes our mom is Asian, 6'-2' tall, speaks Russian, is 110 lbs, long hair and is an engineer are we both describing the same mom even though we both call this person mom? I would say no. Same with Muslims, Christians and Jews.

Here’s an example. Some people believe Trump is responsible for the Covid outbreak in America, some don’t. Are these people talking about two different Trumps? Some people believe Bruce Lee was the best fighter in his time, some don’t. Are they believing in two different Bruce Lees? Just because people have different beliefs about someone doesn’t mean they’re beliefs are about two different people. Only one God greater Adam. Only one God told Noah to build the ark. Only one God flooded the earth killing all but 8 people. Only one God gave Moses the Torah. Whether you want to call Him God, Allah, Jehovah, Yahweh, Elohim, Creator, Maker, One, The Alpha and Omega, The First and Last, The King of Kings, I Am, The Almighty, Lord, The Lord of Lords, Heavenly Father, Theos, The God of Israel, The God of Jacob, The God of Abraham, it’s still the same one and only God.

Christians believe in the Trinity, Muslims think that is anathema. In the end this debate has been going on for 1400 years or so. I doubt we will decide it here.

 

[BNR32FAN]

If they don't agree on whether Jesus is god, how can they worship the same God? They believe in and worship different ideas about God. If I believe my mom is white, 5'-4" tall, speaks English, is 110 lbs, long hair and is a mail person and my sister believes our mom is Asian, 6'-2' tall, speaks Russian, is 110 lbs, long hair and is an engineer are we both describing the same mom even though we both call this person mom? I would say no. Same with Muslims, Christians and Jews.

Your sister would merely be incorrectly perceiving your mother’s appearance and language. In short your sister is just incorrect. Her lack of accuracy does not conjure up a false mother into existence. Only one mother gave birth to you and your sister, therefore her inaccurate perception or description doesn’t change the FACT that only one woman gave birth to you. just Like only ONE GOD CREATED ADAM AND EVE. Inaccurate beliefs do not change that either FACT either.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Your sister would merely be incorrectly perceiving your mother’s appearance and language. In short your sister is just incorrect. Her lack of accuracy does not conjure up a false mother into existence. Only one mother gave birth to you and your sister, therefore her inaccurate perception or description doesn’t change the FACT that only one woman gave birth to you. just Like only ONE GOD CREATED ADAM AND EVE. Inaccurate beliefs do not change that either FACT either.

The fact is that either one or both descriptions are false. Only one can be true.

Now here’s is the real problem. How did you determine my description of my mom is accurate? How do you know you determine if the Jewish, Muslim or Christian description of god is true? It seriously matters because they have different ways for salvation. You can say that they are worshipping the same god but as you believe unless you believe in Jesus forgiveness to hell with you. It matters what you believe god is like.

 

[BNR32FAN]

The fact is that either one or both descriptions are false. Only one can be true.

Now here’s is the real problem. How did you determine my description of my mom is accurate? How do you know you determine if the Jewish, Muslim or Christian description of god is true? It seriously matters because they have different ways for salvation. You can say that they are worshipping the same god but as you believe unless you believe in Jesus forgiveness to hell with you. It matters what you believe god is like.

Regardless of how you or your sister perceive your mom, you still have only one mom. The Bible tells us what God is like. Did you know the Old Testament in the Bible is the Jewish Bible? Every book in the Old Testament is exactly the same as the Hebrew Bible.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Regardless of how you or your sister perceive your mom, you still have only one mom. The Bible tells us what God is like. Did you know the Old Testament in the Bible is the Jewish Bible? Every book in the Old Testament is exactly the same as the Hebrew Bible.

I know.
but why do Jews and Christians believe different things about god with the same book? Who is right and why? That is the more important question. Our eternity depends on it.

 

[Rachel20]

No one but Christ was "sacrificed" for me. I made my decision, others made theirs. The trolley problem would be more analogous if the 5 just stand there intent on suicide (rather than tied up and unable to move, which is not the case in Christianity)

 

[Paul4JC]

I'm going off the rails on a crazy trolley.....

It is not my fault if I misunderstand God if he refuses to help me understand. A logical and good god would make sure all people understand him and his plan for salvation. Then we could make an informed decision to follow him or not. This would be easy for God.

Is that like, "it's not my fault officer!?" (as handcuffs go on)

[Exo 23:3 NIV] 3 and do not show favoritism to a poor person in a lawsuit.
[Exo 23:6 NIV] 6 "Do not deny justice to your poor people in their lawsuits.
[Act 10:34 NIV] 34 Then Peter began to speak: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism
[Rom 2:11 NIV] 11 For God does not show favoritism.
[Gal 2:6 NIV] 6 As for those who were held in high esteem--whatever they were makes no difference to me; God does not show favoritism--they added nothing to my message.

Your close, God is easy.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

It is the same God. The Jews are also monotheists and yet we worship the same God.

Explain to me how believing the true god is one is the same thing as believing that god is three? Logically they cannot be talking about the same god?