Trolley Problem and God

Clizby WampusCat

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Well, God knows if people are dead in sin. So, He does not really decide this, but He knows.
Did god makeup the concept of sin? If not, where did it come from and why does God have to obey the concept?

How the universe is made is not what decides who will perish. But yes God made the universe.
Then who does?

People are saved, in this universe; so it is possible to be saved, here . . . in spite of all the evil with all its stuff to keep our attention away from God and loving.
Yet, Jesus says most will not be saved. So God must have known that when he created the universe. Could God have created it differently so most people are saved? If not, why not?
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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I answered this in post #9. But as the saying goes, "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still."
How does post #9 answer this question? God does not have to convince us against our will for us to choose to be saved. He just needs to provide the evidence that He exists and that we need saving so we can make an informed decision.
 
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com7fy8

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isn't God a better supervillain for killing more than half?
That other guy did not create the universe and send God's own Son Jesus to reach us and die for our sins. So, no God is not some villain.

Well, God knows if people are dead in sin. So, He does not really decide this, but He knows.
Did god makeup the concept of sin? If not, where did it come from and why does God have to obey the concept?
God evaluates each of us. Sin has to do with how we are wrong. Sin is simply a term for evaluating and seeing what is wrong, "in the sight of God" (Luke 16:15)

He has standards for right and wrong, in comparison with how He wants us to love. And if people are contrary to this, His word says people are "deserving of death" > Romans 1:18-32. Anyone can see why > we see how people became able to crucify God's own Son, because they were so anti-love.

So, yes God does remove wrong people from this earth. The fact that they are wrong is not what He decides, but based on what He knows, about right from wrong.

But Jesus came to rescue the ones God brings to Jesus. Otherwise, we would keep on being "children of wrath, just as the others." (in Ephesians 2:3)
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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That other guy did not create the universe and send God's own Son Jesus to reach us and die for our sins. So, no God is not some villain.
Could God have created a universe where all or even most people are saved?

God evaluates each of us. Sin has to do with how we are wrong. Sin is simply a term for evaluating and seeing what is wrong, "in the sight of God" (Luke 16:15)
Does God decide what is right and wrong?

He has standards for right and wrong, in comparison with how He wants us to love. And if people are contrary to this, His word says people are "deserving of death" > Romans 1:18-32. Anyone can see why > we see how people became able to crucify God's own Son, because they were so anti-love.
I never crucified anyone. Do I deserve death for lying, stealing or lustful thoughts?

So, yes God does remove wrong people from this earth. The fact that they are wrong is not what He decides, but based on what He knows, about right from wrong.
Does God determine right and wrong or is He just enforcing someone else's standard?

But Jesus came to rescue the ones God brings to Jesus. Otherwise, we would keep on being "children of wrath, just as the others." (in Ephesians 2:3)
Right. God made the rules to kill us for sin and then says I have the cure as well. Like what the mafia does.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Could God have created a universe where all or even most people are saved?

Does God decide what is right and wrong?

I never crucified anyone. Do I deserve death for lying, stealing or lustful thoughts?

Does God determine right and wrong or is He just enforcing someone else's standard?

Right. God made the rules to kill us for sin and then says I have the cure as well. Like what the mafia does.

Wow, Clizby, you just can't help yourself but to break the rules here, can you? It must be difficult being you, fighting a huge Trolley Problem in the Sky.

But, hop-skippety, here's a little something extra for your troubles (or maybe for everyone else's troubles):

Would You Pull the Trolley Switch? Does it Matter?

The Trolley Problem Tries to Probe Our Moral Compass. Does It Work?
 
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com7fy8

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I never crucified anyone. Do I deserve death for lying, stealing or lustful thoughts?
I did. I don't want you to die, though. So, I'm not interested in you going there, about what you deserve.
 
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com7fy8

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Does God determine right and wrong or is He just enforcing someone else's standard?
Would this be a way of asking me if I am anthropomorphizing God to be about my standards? No, I am not anthropomorphizing God, and yes He determines the standards.

By the way, if I may > I have found much better standards in the Bible, than what I was going by. Even after being a Christian and getting to know the Bible, then I was surprised and impressed with how God's standards for how to relate in love are so better than how I have been relating.

"Do all things without complaining, that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation" (in Philippians 2:13-16)

This helps me to show how, by relating "without" arguing or complaining, I can become how God's love makes me like Jesus, in relating with people. And God commands this; so we can know He is committed to succeeding with us to have us sharing and caring as family in His love, instead of wasting ourselves and abusing each other with arguing and complaining which are anti-love and anti-peace.

So, this is an example of how God's word has brought me to better standards.

And >

"nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:3)

But I have been one to look down on others who I consider to be wrong, as though I am a lord and judge over others. And I have been able to try to lord myself over others to get their attention and recognition. So, this scripture has shown me how wrong I have been, but also how I can become a real example > not only acting to impress people, but a really good example in the sight of God . . . so I am not depending only on my show and words, but being how His love has us becoming.

So, these are things I did not come up with and then try to use God to enforce them . . . in case this is what you mean.
 
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com7fy8

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Right. God made the rules to kill us for sin and then says I have the cure as well. Like what the mafia does.
He's not the mafia. And humans are called to repent so we do not perish. Plus, God knows the real reason why, if someone is "deserving of death". Plus, through Jesus we can have all which is so better than our wrong stuff >

"'Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.'" (Matthew 11:28-29)

Jesus knows how we are, and He desires all which is so better, for us, in sharing with Him.

And He knows how horrible our sins have been; so He so suffered and died in order to save us from our sins . . . so we do not go where the evil spirit of our sinning will go. Sinners need to be turned "from the power of Satan to God" (in Acts 26:18).

So, it is not wise to say God is like people of Satan who are in the mafia. Jesus warns us, by the way, about considering ourselves to be superior to other wrong people, by saying oh we aren't as bad as those people. There are ones who do this, who think they are too good for Jesus!! If people bad-mouth Him and reject Him, after He has come here on earth to us humans and so suffered and died for our sins, they are being conceited like Satan; plus they are helping others by their bad example, to go to hell, and helping people to hell is much worse than murder . . . if their bad example is helping people to not trust in Christ for salvation (Ephesians 1:12).
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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Clizby WampusCat

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Would this be a way of asking me if I am anthropomorphizing God to be about my standards? No, I am not anthropomorphizing God, and yes He determines the standards.
this is not what I am asking.

By the way, if I may > I have found much better standards in the Bible, than what I was going by. Even after being a Christian and getting to know the Bible, then I was surprised and impressed with how God's standards for how to relate in love are so better than how I have been relating.

"Do all things without complaining, that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation" (in Philippians 2:13-16)

This helps me to show how, by relating "without" arguing or complaining, I can become how God's love makes me like Jesus, in relating with people. And God commands this; so we can know He is committed to succeeding with us to have us sharing and caring as family in His love, instead of wasting ourselves and abusing each other with arguing and complaining which are anti-love and anti-peace.

So, this is an example of how God's word has brought me to better standards.

And >

"nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:3)

But I have been one to look down on others who I consider to be wrong, as though I am a lord and judge over others. And I have been able to try to lord myself over others to get their attention and recognition. So, this scripture has shown me how wrong I have been, but also how I can become a real example > not only acting to impress people, but a really good example in the sight of God . . . so I am not depending only on my show and words, but being how His love has us becoming.

So, these are things I did not come up with and then try to use God to enforce them . . . in case this is what you mean.
the question I asked was a straightforward question. Did god come up with the standard or is he enforcing someone else’s standard?
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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He's not the mafia. And humans are called to repent so we do not perish. Plus, God knows the real reason why, if someone is "deserving of death". Plus, through Jesus we can have all which is so better than our wrong stuff >
do you believe I deserve death for lying?

"'Come to Me,
all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.'"
(Matthew 11:28-29)

Jesus knows how we are, and He desires all which is so better, for us, in sharing with Him.

And He knows how horrible our sins have been; so He so suffered and died in order to save us from our sins . . . so we do not go where the evil spirit of our sinning will go. Sinners need to be turned "from the power of Satan to God" (in Acts 26:18).
do saved people sin?

So, it is not wise to say God is like people of Satan who are in the mafia. Jesus warns us, by the way, about considering ourselves to be superior to other wrong people, by saying oh we aren't as bad as those people. There are ones who do this, who think they are too good for Jesus!! If people bad-mouth Him and reject Him, after He has come here on earth to us humans and so suffered and died for our sins, they are being conceited like Satan; plus they are helping others by their bad example, to go to hell, and helping people to hell is much worse than murder . . . if their bad example is helping people to not trust in Christ for salvation (Ephesians 1:12).
So I am conceited, like satan, I am sending people to hell, and I am worse than a murderer. Wow. I think none of those things about you. I think you are a good person that does bad things occasionally. I wish you would think better of others and yourself. The things you do wrong are not worthy of death.

The problem Christians have is that they want to love others but also want to follow the Bible. They cannot do both. You cannot love someone and also unjustly call them a murderer.
 
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com7fy8

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Ok, then God chose to send people to hell for lying which is not justice.
You say you teach the Bible; so if you really know God's word, you already know God's word says "liars" will go to the lake of fire and brimstone > Revelation 21:8. So, are you testing me to see if I also know what the Bible says? But this does not say that the lying all by itself will be the reason.

Also, there is His purpose for vessels of dishonor > Romans 9:21.

I now think of this > a person who trusts in and depends on lying is not trusting in Jesus. So, the person is rejecting God's own Son. And the person's horrible example of this can help others to also miss out. So, the liar is helping others to go to hell, also. When people do evil, they export this to others. So, this is part of what is wrong.

Plus, as I would suppose you know, there is no sin which is in isolation. Ones who do one thing have others they do, also. And what in the character makes this possible is what really matters. A person is being anti-Christ by how one's character is selfish. Plus, like I have offered, there is the evil spirit who is causing this > Ephesians 2:2 > "the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience." (in Ephesians 2:2)

This evil spirit is going to hell; so while a person is investing in Satanic activities of this evil spirit, the person is growing "worse and worse" (in 2 Timothy 3:13) along with others, and then the person can go where the Satanic stuff of this is going > to the flaming sewer which burns with fire and brimstone.

So, a person's lies, by themselves, are not all there is to it.

So it is wise, then, not to allow this stuff in us; this is why, among other things we are told to put evil stuff away from us and get into how to love, instead >

"Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice. And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you." (Ephesians 4:31-32)

So, also . . . unforgiveness is anti- Jesus on the cross. But people in a Satanic spirit continue in what is not God's kind and tender way of forgiving. And so that stuff in them is going to the flaming sewer, and they are volunteering to keep it in them, of all things!! I would not volunteer for that job, but it appears many do.

And, by the way, "evil speaking" includes calling God a murderer. Jesus is clear how Satan, not God, "is a murderer" > in John 8:44. Plus, Satan is the one who is the father of lies, as the same scripture says . . . including how he has people lying by saying God is a murderer < that is not only lying but blasphemy and bearing false witness against God Himself. So, if people think our Father of Jesus is a murderer, they have God and Satan mixed up. So, if you know and teach God's word, you make sure you tell people this, and do not misrepresent God's word.
 
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com7fy8

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I did. I don't want you to die, though. So, I'm not interested in going there, about what you deserve.

You quoted me correctly in Post #29, but it is wrong; it needs to say >

"I'm not interested in you going there, about what you deserve."

And now I intend to edit it.
 
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com7fy8

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Did god come up with the standard or is he enforcing someone else’s standard?
God is the source of His standards. But we can anthropomorphize God to fit with our standards and how we are in our character. So, yes our character can effect how we see God.

But whatever are really God's standards have come from God Himself.

But, then, there is the issue of if and how our character can effect how well we understand Him and His standards.
 
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