Trinity

[Hoghead1]

May be a problem for you if you aren't robed in the Holy Spirit you are coming up with human reasoning which will fall short. If the Three are One then their jobs are the same on some level.

Look, in serious theological discussions, you don't came at someone with there accusation that they aren't sufficiently moved by the Spirit. If the three are one, then no, their jobs don't overlap, aren't identical.

 

[Cappadocious]

There is just one personality there.

You do not admit any sense of "one God" other than "one personality being there"? What is the demonstration for this? Why is this anything more than a stipulative definition?

 

[Hoghead1]

You do not admit any sense of "one God" other than "one personality being there"? What is the demonstration for this? Why is this anything more than a stipulative definition?

Well, why do you have problems with this? If, for example, you refer to Wotan and his wife Flicka, you have two gods, right? If you are thinking of God as other than personality, then you have collapsed down God into being an abstract, impersonal principle.

 

[Cappadocious]

If you are thinking of God as other than personality, then you have collapsed down God into being an abstract, impersonal principle.

What is the demonstration for this? Why are we in a dichotomy between "personality" on the one hand and "abstract impersonal principle" on the other?

You are wont to employ the term "personality" although it finds little purchase in theology; surely it gives you something "person" does not. Just what that is... we have not yet seen.

 

[Teslafied]

OK, but what about the Holy Spirit? You left out the Third Person.

John 15:26 - But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Notice the word "he", this clearly means the holy spirit is a He, He is more than just a power He is a real vital part of the God head.

 

[Goatee]

Problem is, people are referring to God and Jesus as someone we know. They are not of this world, so to speak. God is beyond our understanding. We are trying to work out the 'Trinity' etc in 'our' ways with our limited knowledge. I dont think it could ever be explained.

Jesus prayed to His Father in Heaven. Many times he referred to God the Father.

 

[StanJ]

How do you see us as triune?

Just as Hebrews 4:12 states....body, soul and spirit.

 

[StanJ]

In the beginning (Genesis 1:1) it was Elohim that crested the heavens and the earth.
Elohim (Hebrew: אֱלֹהִים) is a plural name for "gods" or "Deity" in Biblical Hebrew. In the modern usage it is often referred to in the singular despite the -im ending that denotes plural masculine nouns in Hebrew. However in the context of God the Father, The Fathers image on Earth (the Son, Christ Jesus) and the Spirit of God it would seem that the very earliest reference to God that was a paradox for monotheism is resolved.

Actually it's a feminine plural name for a singular God.

 

[Rescued One]

Not really. The modern Trinity doctrine actually comes from around the 5th century A.D. One of the first appearances of it is in the Athanasian Creed.

It was an answer to the heresies that were rampant at that time. The One God in Three Persons has existed eternally.

 

[Rescued One]

There is only one God --- read Isaiah.

Revelation 1 : 17-18 — The one God who was the first and the last died and rose again!
Hebrews 1 : 1, 2, 8 — God the Father calls the Son, "God."
Acts 5 : 3-4 --Peter calls the Holy Spirit, "God."
John 6 : 27 --Jesus calls the Father, "God."

The Trinity Revealed in the Resurrection
1. Acts 10 : 39-40 — God raised Christ from the dead.
2. 1 Thessalonians 1 : 10 — God the Father raised the Son from the dead.
3. Romans 8 : 11 — God the Spirit raised the Son from the dead.
4. John 2 : 19-22 — God the Son raised Himself from the dead.

The Trinity Revealed in the Creation
1. The Father: Isaiah 64:8.
2. The Son: Colossians 1:15-17.
3. The Holy Spirit: Job 33:4.

God doesn't pray to Himself (garden of Gethsemane), God is not a ventriloquist(baptism of Jesus), The Father sent His Son, The Son sent the Holy Spirit, the Son said "WE will make our abode with you."

The Son is not the Father:

John 8
42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

John 16
28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

Galatians 4
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are able to:

(A) Send or be sent by one another (John 3:17, 10:36, 14:23-26, 15:26, 16:7).

(B) Speak to each other (John 17:1-26, Romans 8:26-27, Hebrews 1:7-8) and about each other (Matthew 17:5, Mark 1:11, John 8:13-18).

(C) The Father and Son love each other (John 3:35, 5:20, 14:31).

Jesus baptizes with the Holy Spirit(Luke 3:16). Jesus promised to send the Holy Spirit (John 14:26).
Jesus ascended to His Father.

The Holy Spirit can be grieved (Ephesians 4:30 "And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.")

 

[throughfiierytrial]

Look, in serious theological discussions, you don't came at someone with there accusation that they aren't sufficiently moved by the Spirit. If the three are one, then no, their jobs don't overlap, aren't identical.

You in red.
This is what I actually said:
May be a problem for you if you aren't robed in the Holy Spirit you are coming up with human reasoning which will fall short. If the Three are One then their jobs are the same on some level.
The you is used in the general sense.
I gave no accusation at all...if you re-read your post to me you said: Patience and prayer are fine things, but aren't going to do the whole job here. The trinity is a very complex and problematic doctrine and so we really need to put our thinking caps on.
Not a serious answer at all for this "serious theological discussion".
And yes, if the three are one their jobs not only overlap, but are identical...one sees a demonstration of this in Scripture. The Father and the Son are our Savior, Jesus says He'll send the Holy Spirit and refers to Himself as the Holy Spirit. They are One God.
Also, for a serious theological discussion, I think it is out-of-bounds on your part to make a comment like, "the Holy Spirit isn't mentioned there...I comment and point out via Scripture that He and you return with: yes, buts. Don't think for a moment that I don't see your shifts...here's an example...
I posted Isaiah 9:6-7 and you responded to these passages saying: Yes, but you see this says nothing abut the Holy Spirit.
I followed up with Isaiah 9:6-7 and an explanation to show the Holy Spirit is the Wonderful Counselor. You respond: Yes, I am well aware of that. I am simply pointing out that the Holy Spirit is often left out of the picture. John doesn't get to the Spirit until about chapter 13.
So, if you want to be taken so very serious then speak serious.

 

[jerry kelso]

The words of Agur the son of Jakeh, even the prophecy: the man spake unto Ithiel, even unto Ithiel and Ucal,
2 Surely I am more brutish than any man, and have not the understanding of a man.
3 I neither learned wisdom, nor have the knowledge of the holy.
4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell? (Prov. 30:1-4 KJV)

19 Then Nebuchadnezzar was full of fury, and the expression on his face changed toward Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego. He spoke and commanded that they heat the furnace seven times more than it was usually heated.
20 And he commanded certain mighty men of valor who were in his army to bind Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego, and cast them into the burning fiery furnace.
21 Then these men were bound in their coats, their trousers, their turbans, and their other garments, and were cast into the midst of the burning fiery furnace.
22 Therefore, because the king's command was urgent, and the furnace exceedingly hot, the flame of the fire killed those men who took up Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego.
23 And these three men, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego, fell down bound into the midst of the burning fiery furnace.
24 Then King Nebuchadnezzar was astonished; and he rose in haste and spoke, saying to his counselors, "Did we not cast three men bound into the midst of the fire?" They answered and said to the king, "True, O king."
25 "Look!" he answered, "I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire; and they are not hurt, and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God." (Dan. 3:19-25 NKJ)

Eternally begotten is not possible. In John 8:42 Jesus said that He came out of God and He used a past tense verb. That means it's a completed action that is finish, thus there is no eternal begetting.

Yes, the Father calls Jesus God. The word "theos" is a title. It doesn't mean they are the same being.

butch5,

1. Proverbs 30:4; your answer as what is his name and his son's name being the father and son is partially true prophetically but not the immediate answer.

2. Exodus 4:22: Israel is my son my firstborn. 1 Chronicles 22:10 and 1 Chronicles 28:6 calls Solomon his son and God would be his father. Solomon was king of Israel and this goes back to Exodus 4:22 with the nation of Israel being the son and the firstborn.

3. Jesus was the begotten son and did not come to fruition till he was born at the end of the old testament dispensation. So prophetically he would be the son but not at the time of Agur and Solomon in reality.

4. Isaiah 9:6 says unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

5. Isaiah wrote by inspiration of the Holy Spirit but most likely didn't understand the fullness of Jesus being the almighty God and the jews in Jesus day didn't have a clue that Jesus as the Son of God would be called the almighty God. The leaders understood that he declared his deity and wanted to stone him for this.
The bottom line in Proverbs 30 is that Israel is the firstborn and the son to God of which Jesus would become later on. This was a prophecy to begin with and it is prophetic to the Messiah as I have said before which means he was not the son in reality of the Godhead back then.

6. Daniel 3:25; Angels are ones who are agents of God to protect his children. Angels are called sons of God as well as men. Nebuchadnezzar in verse 28 said the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abendego, who hath sent his angel and delivered his servants that trusted in him. So it is evident that it was God's angel just like in the case of Daniel in the lion's den.

7. So according to scripture you are wrong on both parts and the Messiah was not reality till he was born. Jerry kelso

 

[Goatee]

A heresy is only an heresy if it goes against church beliefs. What if some of the church beliefs may be wrong?

 

[Colter]

Does the bible teach the trinity? Many seem to deny the trinity since the word is not found

It reveals that God has a divine Son, but because the Old Testiment doesn't teach that, the Jews largely rejected Jesus based on their scripture.

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

A heresy is only an heresy if it goes against church beliefs. What if some of the church beliefs may be wrong?

A heresy is only an heresy if it goes against God's word. It is a fact that most main line churches beliefs are wrong!

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

It reveals that God has a divine Son, but because the Old Testiment doesn't teach that, the Jews largely rejected Jesus based on their scripture.

The Jews largely rejected God and His word throughout the OT and the Jews rejected Jesus even when He was among them which makes you point moot.

 

[Colter]

The Jews largely rejected God and His word throughout the OT and the Jews rejected Jesus even when He was among them which makes you point moot.

Do you need a hug today?

The old Testiment scriptures themselves aside from the Jews humanity doesn't teach about God the Son.

 

[Hoghead1]

What is the demonstration for this? Why are we in a dichotomy between "personality" on the one hand and "abstract impersonal principle" on the other?

You are wont to employ the term "personality" although it finds little purchase in theology; surely it gives you something "person" does not. Just what that is... we have not yet seen.

You could say "person" or "personality." You have to ask why we are in a dichotomy? Because many images of God reduce God to being a principle, not a person. For example, arguing that there are three Persons and that they represent one God because they are all of the same nature, Deity, reduces God to an abstract principle., just as is human nature, in the case of human persons.

 

[Hoghead1]

Problem is, people are referring to God and Jesus as someone we know. They are not of this world, so to speak. God is beyond our understanding. We are trying to work out the 'Trinity' etc in 'our' ways with our limited knowledge. I dont think it could ever be explained.

Jesus prayed to His Father in Heaven. Many times he referred to God the Father.

God, in many ways, may be beyond our understanding, but certainly not in all ways. We believe in revelation, a revealing of God. So we do have some definite knowledge of God. The Trinity has been a very confusing topic and many are quite to say that is all due to the mystery of God. However, I believe this "mystery" can be unveiled as largely the product of muddled thinking on the part of teh church fathers.

 

[Hoghead1]

Just as Hebrews 4:12 states....body, soul and spirit.

Yes, but see, soul and spirit appear to considerably overlap here. Remember, the passage says like dividing joints and marrow, which are fused together, part of one another.