Trinity

[Hoghead1]

Yes it does. This is not the same as, Jesus was God in substance. Unless you're getting something different from the phrase "Jesus was God in substance" then I'm getting from it.


Just fwiw- I feel kinda silly and annoying, to keep pushing this.
I hope that I haven't annoyed you too much, by my constant pushbacks. OK, carry on

Well, I guess so, then. Just what on earth are you getting from it?

 

[Hoghead1]

I stand by what I quoted.Again, here are the passages I cited...
Isaiah 9:6-7:
For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Of the greatness of his government and peace
there will be no end.
He will reign on David’s throne
and over his kingdom,
establishing and upholding it
with justice and righteousness
from that time on and forever.
The zeal of the Lord Almighty
will accomplish this.

The child and the son are of course Jesus Christ. Passages go on to say: and He will be called Wonderful Counselor (that is the Holy Spirit), the Mighty God (self explanatory), Everlasting Father (self explanatory).

Your contention is that the Holy Spirit is not mentioned, you also say the Holy Spirit is not mentioned in the Gospel of John...this is not accurate. See these verses in John...
John 14:15-17:
"If you love me, you will obey what I command. And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Counselor to be with you forever--the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept Him, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him...

The Counselor is the Holy Spirit Whom Jesus later bestows to His apostles...
John 20:22:
And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit.

More John passages mentioning the Holy Spirit...
John 14:25-26:
"All this I have spoken while still with you. But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

John 15:26:
"When the Counselor comes whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, He will testify about me.

John 16:7-11:
But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. When He comes, He will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me; in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.

Other Gospels contain more words regarding the Holy Spirit...our Wonderful Counselor.

Yes, I am well aware of that. I am simply pointing out that the Holy Spirit is often left out of the picture. John doesn't get to the Spirit until about chapter 13. Even there, he never really come out and says it is Deity, as he does in his opening. Paul, in Romans 8, seems to confuse the Son and Spirit, giving both the same task there. Also, Paul, in all his greetings, just mentions the Father and Son. Now, I'm not saying the Spirit isn't God. I am just pointing out that it has been the least-elaborated member of the trinity and often quite ignored.

 

[Hoghead1]

Gonna have to disagree. The Scriptures say that the Father is the Father of Jesus. That the Holy Spirit came upon Mary shows that the Holy Spirit is not a separate person but rather is the Father, in a limited sense of course.

There were not three co-equal beings prior to the incarnation. In the beginning there was God the Father. At some point He begat a Son. That Son later became flesh as the man Jesus. Ignatius speaks of the Son being begotten before all worlds as does the Nicene Creed. This first quote is of particular value because Ignatius was a disciple of the apostle John. The apostle John is the one who tells us that the Word was in the beginning with God the Father and John is the one who taught Ignatius

Ignatius Letter to the Antiochians Chapter 14
I write this letter to you from Philippi. May He who is alone unbegotten, keep you stedfast both in the spirit and in the flesh, through Him who was begotten before time began! And may I behold you in the kingdom of Christ! I salute him who is to bear rule over you in my stead: may I have joy of him in the Lord! Fare ye well in God, and in Christ, being enlightened by the Holy Spirit.


Early Church Fathers - – Ante-Nicene Fathers: The Writings of the Fathers Down To A.D. 325.

Justin Martyr Second Apology Chapter 6
But to the Father of all, who is unbegotten there is no name given. For by whatever name He be called, He has as His elder the person who gives Him the name. But these words Father, and God, and Creator, and Lord, and Master, are not names, but appellations derived from His good deeds and functions. And His Son, who alone is properly called Son, the Word who also was with Him and was begotten before the works, when at first He created and arranged all things by Him, is called Christ, in reference to His being anointed and God’s ordering all things through Him; this name itself also containing an unknown significance; as also the appellation “God” is not a name, but an opinion implanted in the nature of men of a thing that can hardly be explained.
Early Church Fathers - – Ante-Nicene Fathers: The Writings of the Fathers Down To A.D. 325.

Ireneaus Fragment 53
With regard to Christ, the law and the prophets and the evangelists have proclaimed that He was born of a virgin, that He suffered upon a beam of wood, and that He appeared from the dead; that He also ascended to the heavens, and was glorified by the Father, and is the Eternal King; that He is the perfect Intelligence, the Word of God, who was begotten before the light; that He was the Founder of the universe, along with it (light), and the Maker of man;
Early Church Fathers - – Ante-Nicene Fathers: The Writings of the Fathers Down To A.D. 325.

Tertullian Against Praxas Chapter 7
Then, therefore, does the Word also Himself assume His own form and glorious garb, His own sound and vocal utterance, when God says, “Let there be light.” This is the perfect nativity of the Word, when He proceeds forth from God—formed by Him first to devise and think out all things under the name of Wisdom—“The Lord created or formed me as the beginning of His ways; ” then afterward begotten, to carry all into effect—“When He prepared the heaven, I was present with Him.” Thus does He make Him equal to Him: for by proceeding from Himself He became His first-begotten Son, because begotten before all things; and His only-begotten also, because alone begotten of God, in a way peculiar to Himself, from the womb of His own heart—even as the Father Himself testifies: “My heart,” says He, “hath emitted my most excellent Word.”
Early Church Fathers - – Ante-Nicene Fathers: The Writings of the Fathers Down To A.D. 325.

No, the traditional understanding of the Trinity was that Christ was coeternal with the Father, always there. That's why the Nicene Creed says "begotten, not made." The above quotes confirm that.

 

[Butch5]

The traditional claim was that Christ "was begotten, not made," meaning he had always been there.

I'm not sure what you mean here. How was He always there if He was begotten?

 

[jerry kelso]

Gonna have to disagree. The Scriptures say that the Father is the Father of Jesus. That the Holy Spirit came upon Mary shows that the Holy Spirit is not a separate person but rather is the Father, in a limited sense of course.

There were not three co-equal beings prior to the incarnation. In the beginning there was God the Father. At some point He begat a Son. That Son later became flesh as the man Jesus. Ignatius speaks of the Son being begotten before all worlds as does the Nicene Creed. This first quote is of particular value because Ignatius was a disciple of the apostle John. The apostle John is the one who tells us that the Word was in the beginning with God the Father and John is the one who taught Ignatius

Ignatius Letter to the Antiochians Chapter 14
I write this letter to you from Philippi. May He who is alone unbegotten, keep you stedfast both in the spirit and in the flesh, through Him who was begotten before time began! And may I behold you in the kingdom of Christ! I salute him who is to bear rule over you in my stead: may I have joy of him in the Lord! Fare ye well in God, and in Christ, being enlightened by the Holy Spirit.


Early Church Fathers - – Ante-Nicene Fathers: The Writings of the Fathers Down To A.D. 325.

Justin Martyr Second Apology Chapter 6
But to the Father of all, who is unbegotten there is no name given. For by whatever name He be called, He has as His elder the person who gives Him the name. But these words Father, and God, and Creator, and Lord, and Master, are not names, but appellations derived from His good deeds and functions. And His Son, who alone is properly called Son, the Word who also was with Him and was begotten before the works, when at first He created and arranged all things by Him, is called Christ, in reference to His being anointed and God’s ordering all things through Him; this name itself also containing an unknown significance; as also the appellation “God” is not a name, but an opinion implanted in the nature of men of a thing that can hardly be explained.
Early Church Fathers - – Ante-Nicene Fathers: The Writings of the Fathers Down To A.D. 325.

Ireneaus Fragment 53
With regard to Christ, the law and the prophets and the evangelists have proclaimed that He was born of a virgin, that He suffered upon a beam of wood, and that He appeared from the dead; that He also ascended to the heavens, and was glorified by the Father, and is the Eternal King; that He is the perfect Intelligence, the Word of God, who was begotten before the light; that He was the Founder of the universe, along with it (light), and the Maker of man;
Early Church Fathers - – Ante-Nicene Fathers: The Writings of the Fathers Down To A.D. 325.

Tertullian Against Praxas Chapter 7
Then, therefore, does the Word also Himself assume His own form and glorious garb, His own sound and vocal utterance, when God says, “Let there be light.” This is the perfect nativity of the Word, when He proceeds forth from God—formed by Him first to devise and think out all things under the name of Wisdom—“The Lord created or formed me as the beginning of His ways; ” then afterward begotten, to carry all into effect—“When He prepared the heaven, I was present with Him.” Thus does He make Him equal to Him: for by proceeding from Himself He became His first-begotten Son, because begotten before all things; and His only-begotten also, because alone begotten of God, in a way peculiar to Himself, from the womb of His own heart—even as the Father Himself testifies: “My heart,” says He, “hath emitted my most excellent Word.”
Early Church Fathers - – Ante-Nicene Fathers: The Writings of the Fathers Down To A.D. 325.

butch5,

1. You can't show a scripture that shows God being a father to a son in the old testament separate from being in context with the messiah being born.

2. In 1 Corinthians 10:4 talks about Christ being the rock in Moses day. The messiah who was Christ was alive in Moses day but not as Christ or the Messiah. He was Yahweh for Israel which means salvation and the book of Joshua is a type of Christ etc.

3. Christ can be eternally begotten but that doesn't invalidate him being Yahweh before then. He was not physically Christ the Messiah until he was born at the end of the age of the Mosaic law.
In Genesis 1:26: And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness...... In our image is more than one in number but it is said by God.

4. In Hebrews 1:8; God the father is talking about the son and calls him God and he is forever a sceptre of righteousness and a sceptre of his kingdom. In verse 9 God the father calls the son God and in verse 10 calls him Lord who was in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth and the heavens are the works of thine hands.

5. I have showed you the scriptures that have the Son calling the Father God and the Father calling the Son God.

6. You cannot show me any scripture any scripture that God the Father was ever called the Father or the Son called the Son separate from the context of the Messiah and his reality when he was born.
This is logical because it is scripture. The trinity is also monotheism through compound unity; one God in three persons. Jerry Kelso

 

[Butch5]

butch5,

1. You can't show a scripture that shows God being a father to a son in the old testament separate from being in context with the messiah being born.

2. In 1 Corinthians 10:4 talks about Christ being the rock in Moses day. The messiah who was Christ was alive in Moses day but not as Christ or the Messiah. He was Yahweh for Israel which means salvation and the book of Joshua is a type of Christ etc.

3. Christ can be eternally begotten but that doesn't invalidate him being Yahweh before then. He was not physically Christ the Messiah until he was born at the end of the age of the Mosaic law.
In Genesis 1:26: And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness...... In our image is more than one in number but it is said by God.

4. In Hebrews 1:8; God the father is talking about the son and calls him God and he is forever a sceptre of righteousness and a sceptre of his kingdom. In verse 9 God the father calls the son God and in verse 10 calls him Lord who was in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth and the heavens are the works of thine hands.

5. I have showed you the scriptures that have the Son calling the Father God and the Father calling the Son God.

6. You cannot show me any scripture any scripture that God the Father was ever called the Father or the Son called the Son separate from the context of the Messiah and his reality when he was born.
This is logical because it is scripture. The trinity is also monotheism through compound unity; one God in three persons. Jerry Kelso

The words of Agur the son of Jakeh, even the prophecy: the man spake unto Ithiel, even unto Ithiel and Ucal,
2 Surely I am more brutish than any man, and have not the understanding of a man.
3 I neither learned wisdom, nor have the knowledge of the holy.
4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell? (Prov. 30:1-4 KJV)

19 Then Nebuchadnezzar was full of fury, and the expression on his face changed toward Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego. He spoke and commanded that they heat the furnace seven times more than it was usually heated.
20 And he commanded certain mighty men of valor who were in his army to bind Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego, and cast them into the burning fiery furnace.
21 Then these men were bound in their coats, their trousers, their turbans, and their other garments, and were cast into the midst of the burning fiery furnace.
22 Therefore, because the king's command was urgent, and the furnace exceedingly hot, the flame of the fire killed those men who took up Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego.
23 And these three men, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego, fell down bound into the midst of the burning fiery furnace.
24 Then King Nebuchadnezzar was astonished; and he rose in haste and spoke, saying to his counselors, "Did we not cast three men bound into the midst of the fire?" They answered and said to the king, "True, O king."
25 "Look!" he answered, "I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire; and they are not hurt, and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God." (Dan. 3:19-25 NKJ)

Eternally begotten is not possible. In John 8:42 Jesus said that He came out of God and He used a past tense verb. That means it's a completed action that is finish, thus there is no eternal begetting.

Yes, the Father calls Jesus God. The word "theos" is a title. It doesn't mean they are the same being.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

Yes, I am well aware of that. I am simply pointing out that the Holy Spirit is often left out of the picture. John doesn't get to the Spirit until about chapter 13. Even there, he never really come out and says it is Deity, as he does in his opening. Paul, in Romans 8, seems to confuse the Son and Spirit, giving both the same task there. Also, Paul, in all his greetings, just mentions the Father and Son. Now, I'm not saying the Spirit isn't God. I am just pointing out that it has been the least-elaborated member of the trinity and often quite ignored.

Well, it is a relief that you are not saying the Spirit isn't God, however, given that the Holy Spirit was not breathed upon the apostles until after the resurrection you can hardly question why more mention is not made of Him before them in the Gospels...though John does make note in places that the Spirit had not yet been given and hence the lack of understanding on the part of the apostles of some spiritual points. I happen to believe there is much explanation of the Holy Spirit given the passages I cite alone.
I believe it wrong for a Christian to say things like Paul, who was speaking by the Holy Spirit, seems to confuse the Son and the Spirit. God is not the author of confusion, it is we, as humans, who may encounter confusion in our Scripture reading...patience and prayer will cure much of that...I say only much b/c we are not all given the same amount of spiritual knowledge and wisdom in the end.
The Son and the Father are one and yet they are separate hence they are both our Savior and they both send the Spirit. They are incomprehensible to an extent, but one can surmise that if the three are one then they to an extend they preform the same jobs.
It is we who need to adjust our thinking; it is not Paul or God the Holy Spirit who need to clarify. If we need clarity, clean away the preconceived ideas and let Scripture truly speak...it is the Word of an all-wise God.

 

[Hoghead1]

Well, it is a relief that you are not saying the Spirit isn't God, however, given that the Holy Spirit was not breathed upon the apostles until after the resurrection you can hardly question why more mention is not made of Him before them in the Gospels...though John does make note in places that the Spirit had not yet been given and hence the lack of understanding on the part of the apostles of some spiritual points. I happen to believe there is much explanation of the Holy Spirit given the passages I cite alone.
I believe it wrong for a Christian to say things like Paul, who was speaking by the Holy Spirit, seems to confuse the Son and the Spirit. God is not the author of confusion, it is we, as humans, who may encounter confusion in our Scripture reading...patience and prayer will cure much of that...I say only much b/c we are not all given the same amount of spiritual knowledge and wisdom in the end.
The Son and the Father are one and yet they are separate hence they are both our Savior and they both send the Spirit. They are incomprehensible to an extent, but one can surmise that if the three are one then they to an extend they preform the same jobs.
It is we who need to adjust our thinking; it is not Paul or God the Holy Spirit who need to clarify. If we need clarity, clean away the preconceived ideas and let Scripture truly speak...it is the Word of an all-wise God.

Yes, but the way Paul has it, there is no difference between the Son and Spirit. Patience and prayer are fine things, but aren't going to do the whole job here. The trinity is a very complex and problematic doctrine and so we really need to put our thinking caps on.

 

[Hoghead1]

I'm not sure what you mean here. How was He always there if He was begotten?

'Begotten, not made" is what the creed says. "Begotten" and "made" had different meanings back then, unlike today. A favorite metaphor used by the early fathers was the sun and sunlight. The sunlight is produced or begotten by the sun, but there never was a time when the sun was without sunlight.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

Yes, but the way Paul has it, there is no difference between the Son and Spirit. Patience and prayer are fine things, but aren't going to do the whole job here. The trinity is a very complex and problematic doctrine and so we really need to put our thinking caps on.

May be a problem for you if you aren't robed in the Holy Spirit you are coming up with human reasoning which will fall short. If the Three are One then their jobs are the same on some level.

 

[Jasrocaby]

What do you get from these verses?

Gen 1:1 IN the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters.

“Us and our”

Gen 1:26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth." 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God….14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father.

 

[Butch5]

'Begotten, not made" is what the creed says. "Begotten" and "made" had different meanings back then, unlike today. A favorite metaphor used by the early fathers was the sun and sunlight. The sunlight is produced or begotten by the sun, but there never was a time when the sun was without sunlight.

I'm familiar with that example!

 

[Teslafied]

What do you get from these verses?

Gen 1:1 IN the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters.

“Us and our”

Gen 1:26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth." 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God….14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father.

This. This implies to me a trinity. I may not fully comprehend the trinity concept but I know it exists. Whether one considers Jesus God or not is up to each individual but it does say this in scripture ;

Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? John 14:9

 

[Teslafied]

Philippians 2:6-8King James Version (KJV)
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

 

[StanJ]

The Bible indeed teaches the Triune nature of God and that we are made in God's image as a triune being.

 

[Anguspure]

Does the bible teach the trinity? Many seem to deny the trinity since the word is not found

In the beginning (Genesis 1:1) it was Elohim that crested the heavens and the earth.
Elohim (Hebrew: אֱלֹהִים) is a plural name for "gods" or "Deity" in Biblical Hebrew. In the modern usage it is often referred to in the singular despite the -im ending that denotes plural masculine nouns in Hebrew. However in the context of God the Father, The Fathers image on Earth (the Son, Christ Jesus) and the Spirit of God it would seem that the very earliest reference to God that was a paradox for monotheism is resolved.

 

[Hoghead1]

The Bible indeed teaches the Triune nature of God and that we are made in God's image as a triune being.

How do you see us as triune?

 

[Hoghead1]

This. This implies to me a trinity. I may not fully comprehend the trinity concept but I know it exists. Whether one considers Jesus God or not is up to each individual but it does say this in scripture ;

Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? John 14:9

OK, but what about the Holy Spirit? You left out the Third Person.

 

[Cappadocious]

Belief in one God.

How are you defining "one God"?

 

[Hoghead1]

How are you defining "one God"?

There is just one personality there.