Trinity

[Hoghead1]

Just to get this all in one post:







Why cannot three personalities not constitute one God, without it being polytheism? You keep repeating this, but could you explain why? Or are we getting into the mysterious? If I try and explain my p.o.v. further, I start ending up in mystery, so I try to mostly just stick to the Bible (I'm not saying you're not).

What is the nature of the one God they create? Is it just that they all work together in perfect harmony? OK, but still three Gods working in harmony are still three Gods. Is it that the all share the same nature, i.e., divinity or Deity? If so, that is still polytheism. Three humans share in common human nature, but are still three humans. Is it that they constitute a kind of group personality? Now, that has some promise. Of course, there re other possibilities. The Trinity can be thought of as representing there ways God has of being God, as creator, savior, and also comforter. If you are going to stick with the Bible, you will still have considerable, if not more, difficulties. The Bible implies a Trinity, but does not spell it out in any real detail. There are many ambiguities in Scripture here, which is why many early anti-Trinitarians cited Scripture in their defense. I think the Trinity is a mystery ,not because of the mystery of God, but because of teh muddled thinking on the part of the church fathers.

 

[Hoghead1]

Not that I'm not contending with you, but I've never see or heard this language, "God was Jesus in substance"? Is this what you meant to type? If so, where have you heard this? I'm just curious, as I've never read or heard this.

Apparently you have never read the Nicene Creed, a major, if not, the most major statement of Trinitarian thought. It states that the Son is "of one substance" with the Father. "Ousia" or "substance" is a concept from Hellenic substance metaphysics, not found in Scripture. Most of the Trinitarian formulations are extra-biblical in nature.

 

[beforHim]

Does the bible teach the trinity? Many seem to deny the trinity since the word is not found

You simply said that a word doesn't have to be in teh Bible for it to be true, right? That isn't the issue here.

If she meant, since the word is not found in the Bible, then yes obviously this is exactly what she was inquiring about.

 

[beforHim]

It states that the Son is "of one substance" with the Father..

I'll quote butch5 again.

They said that Jesus was God in substance

I've never heard of read that before. I know about the Nicene creed, ousia, and all that stuff.

 

[Hoghead1]

I'll quote butch5 again.


I've never heard of read that before. I know about the Nicene creed, ousia, and all that stuff.

Oh, OK, you've heard and know about all that "stuff" already. C'mon.

 

[Hoghead1]

If she meant, since the word is not found in the Bible, then yes obviously this is exactly what she was inquiring about.

The Bible implies a Trinity, but does not clearly work it out.

 

[Goatee]

Trying to work out who God is and what his words in the Bible 'actually' mean is very difficult indeed.

As i have mentioned in another thread, seeing Jesus praying to the Father etc is confusing. But, God is out of our understanding. We could never explain God and how he is.

The Trinity is 'man made'. I dont mean man made in that The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are man made! No!

This is what has been interpreted from scripture. Could we be wrong?

 

[Hoghead1]

Trying to work out who God is and what his words in the Bible 'actually' mean is very difficult indeed.

As i have mentioned in another thread, seeing Jesus praying to the Father etc is confusing. But, God is out of our understanding. We could never explain God and how he is.

The Trinity is 'man made'. I dont mean man made in that The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are man made! No!

This is what has been interpreted from scripture. Could we be wrong?

God may well transcend us and be mysterious, but that doesn't deny the reality of revelation, that God has made Godself plain to us. Also, they mysteries of the trinity represent simply muddled thinking on the part of teh church fathers, as I am concerned.

 

[jerry kelso]

I have to disagree. There's nothing in the Scriptures that teach that the Holy Spirit is a separate person. What they teach is that the Holy Spirit is a limited manifestation of the Father. The Apostle Paul said to the Corinthians,

5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords),
6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live. (1 Cor. 8:5-6 NKJ)

Paul said there is one God, the Father. Jesus when praying to the Father said,


NKJ John 17:1 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You,
2 "as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.
3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. (Jn. 17:1-3 NKJ)

Jesus calls the Father, the only true God.

The early Christians also believed this as the Nicene Creed almost quotes Paul verbatim.

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

They said that Jesus was God in substance. Jesus said that He came out of God. Whatever comes out of God is of the same substance as God. However, that doesn't mean that the Father and Son are the same being.

butch5,

1. The father and the son are not the same and neither is the Holy Spirit.
2. All three have divine attributes and are called God according to scripture.
3. They all existed in the old testament but Jesus was not known as the son except in allusions to his coming to the world as Messiah and this is when God would be the father in this sense.
4. This means all three were separate but equally divine with separate operations. This made up the Godhead.
5. The son becoming the God-man shows that he was divine and he was created by the Spirit not the father.
6. 1 Corinthians 8:6: But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things and we by him.
The one God was referred first to the father and the word "and" is a conjunction that added one Lord Jesus Christ which refers to God.
7. John 17:3 Jesus is the eternal son and this scripture is about the father son relationship. There are plenty of other scriptures that Jesus is called God like John 1:1 and others. He is the essence of God is true and proceeded forth from him as the son John 8:42. The last line of that verse says neither came I of myself, but he sent me is an illusion that he existed already as part of the Godhead of which he could of have had a choice not to come even though we know he agreed with his God who would be his father and Christ would be his begotten son to freely to become man and the Savior of the world.
8. Remember God the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit existed before the new testament but are never known as the Father and the Son in the old testament except maybe illusions to the new testament of the Messiah on earth which is technically the end of the old testament because the new testament was in his blood at the cross of Calvary.
Scriptures show compound unity in three separate entities, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. This is not illogical. Jerry Kelso

 

[beforHim]

The op's question was:

Does the bible teach the trinity? Many seem to deny the trinity since the word is not found

I assume she means, "Many people say the word "trinity" is not in the Bible, therefore it doesn't teach the trinity." That seems to be what she was asking, and that's what I was addressing. I'm glad we're also addressing and discussing the general question about the trinity, but just to be clear, this is what I was addressing. OK, horse is beaten- we could probably make horse-burgers by now! lol

 

[beforHim]

Oh, OK, you've heard and know about all that "stuff" already. C'mon.

You don't have to believe me. Why should you- I'm just a random dude on some internet forums that you've never had any interaction with before. This being the case, maybe you could give me what I'm missing.

Could you show me the creed(s), or the widely and uniformly accepted early church writing(s), that has phraseology akin to, ". . .Jesus was God in substance" or something like that? I think both Niceane creeds say, "of the same substance with the Father" (that's the homo-ousian vs. homoi-ousian conflict). I listened recently to "Leo's Tome", and have read it and had some Bible studied over it before, and I don't recall any phrase akin to ". . .Jesus was God in substance".

But if there is some other creed or uniformly accepted early church writing that has the language butch5 used- I'm not any type of expert on this stuff, mostly an "arm chair" apologist who needs to brush up on all this, so I know I could be missing something.

 

[Cappadocious]

Yes, saying there are three separate, distinct personalities here dos strongly imply polytheism.

How are you defining monotheism?

 

[jerry kelso]

How are you defining monotheism?

Cappadocious,

1. Definition of monotheism is one God. The belief is one divine God with three offices is the oneness doctrine.

2. Jews who believed in Christ believed he was divine because only God could forgive sins and because Christ implied he was God. The reason for the most part of the new testament and supposed only being the only God etc. is because of the father son relationship context.

3. To a Christadelphian there is one divine God who is the father. Jesus is a sinless man but not divine and not God. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Father. They believe in subordination of the son to the father.
4. Compound unity has subordination in office but not in the Godhead itself. All the Godhead has, is, and always will be unified in one concerning harmony.

5. The truth is that all three were present as different entities with different responsibilities but they are one in unity.

6. The truth is that the bible teaches compound unity.

7. The truth is that there is one God in three persons. So monotheism is one God and trinity is the triune Godhead of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. So trinitarians believe in monotheism and trinitarianism and all are divine.

8. In the old testament the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit were present and different persons. The Father and the Son were not known as the Father and the Son in the old testament until Christ was born which was at the end of the old covenant era. Jerry kelso

 

[throughfiierytrial]

True. The Bible implies a kind of Trinity, but does not work it out in any real detail. The Bible is not a book of metaphysics. Tells us very little about how God is built. Presents but snap shots which often conflict. The reader has to piece all these together into an organized whole. Hnece, the early church looked to Hellenic metaphysics and m Trinitarian formulations are largely extra-biblical in nature. "Ousia" or "substance" is not a biblical concept, but comes from Hellenic substance metaphysics.

Here are some Biblical passages which prove out the Trinity quite nicely:
Isaiah 9:6-7:
For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Of the greatness of his government and peace
there will be no end.
He will reign on David’s throne
and over his kingdom,
establishing and upholding it
with justice and righteousness
from that time on and forever.
The zeal of the Lord Almighty

 

[Hoghead1]

You don't have to believe me. Why should you- I'm just a random dude on some internet forums that you've never had any interaction with before. This being the case, maybe you could give me what I'm missing.

Could you show me the creed(s), or the widely and uniformly accepted early church writing(s), that has phraseology akin to, ". . .Jesus was God in substance" or something like that? I think both Niceane creeds say, "of the same substance with the Father" (that's the homo-ousian vs. homoi-ousian conflict). I listened recently to "Leo's Tome", and have read it and had some Bible studied over it before, and I don't recall any phrase akin to ". . .Jesus was God in substance".

But if there is some other creed or uniformly accepted early church writing that has the language butch5 used- I'm not any type of expert on this stuff, mostly an "arm chair" apologist who needs to brush up on all this, so I know I could be missing something.

Well, alright. Look, doesn't the Nicene Creed claim that Jesus was God in substance?

 

[Hoghead1]

Here are some Biblical passages which prove out the Trinity quite nicely:
Isaiah 9:6-7:
For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Of the greatness of his government and peace
there will be no end.
He will reign on David’s throne
and over his kingdom,
establishing and upholding it
with justice and righteousness
from that time on and forever.
The zeal of the Lord Almighty

Yes, but you see this says nothing abut the Holy Spirit. Same with teh Gospel of John. It affirms the Deity of Christ, but says nothing about the Spirit. Same with all Paul's greetings. They are always in the name of the Father and Son, with no mention of teh Holy Spirit. Also, the above passage says Christ will be called Father. But the NT says otherwise, that Christ is the Son.

 

[Butch5]

Not that I'm not contending with you, but I've never see or heard this language, "God was Jesus in substance"? Is this what you meant to type? If so, where have you heard this? I'm just curious, as I've never read or heard this.

Jesus was God in substance. The word "theos" which is translate God in the Bible actually means deity. Jesus is deity just as the Father is. Think of a king who is royalty. When the king has a son the son is also royalty. That's what the word God means. In the Scriptures it's used primarily of the Father, however, there are a few passages that use the word for Jesus.

Jesus said that He came out of God. God begot a Son. So what ever the Father is made of the Son is also made of. It's just like a human gives birth to a human. God gives birth to God.

 

[Hoghead1]

Jesus was God in substance. The word "theos" which is translate God in the Bible actually means deity. Jesus is deity just as the Father is. Think of a king who is royalty. When the king has a son the son is also royalty. That's what the word God means. In the Scriptures it's used primarily of the Father, however, there are a few passages that use the word for Jesus.

Jesus said that He came out of God. God begot a Son. So what ever the Father is made of the Son is also made of. It's just like a human gives birth to a human. God gives birth to God.

OK, but then you end up with two Gods here, the Father and the Son. So how is there one God? Two men may share in common human nature, but there are still two men. Two gods may sh9iare in common divinity or goodness, but there are still two gods. Also, what happened to the Holy Spirit? You failed to mention the latter.

 

[Tree of Life]

Beyond doubt the Bible teaches that God is triune. Anyone who denies this has departed from Christianity. The doctrine of the Trinity is this:

1. There is one God
2. There are three persons in the one God
3. The three persons are distinct

The Bible clearly affirms that Jesus is God. The Bible clearly affirms that Jesus and the Father are distinct (they have a relationship!). The Bible clearly affirms that the Holy Spirit is God yet he is distinct from the Father and the Son (he has a relationship with them!). Yet the Bible is clear that there is only one God. "Trinity" is our attempt to formulate these clear biblical teachings.

 

[Hoghead1]

Beyond doubt the Bible teaches that God is triune. Anyone who denies this has departed from Christianity. The doctrine of the Trinity is this:

1. There is one God
2. There are three persons in the one God
3. The three persons are distinct

The Bible clearly affirms that Jesus is God. The Bible clearly affirms that Jesus and the Father are distinct (they have a relationship!). The Bible clearly affirms that the Holy Spirit is God yet he is distinct from the Father and the Son (he has a relationship with them!). Yet the Bible is clear that there is only one God. "Trinity" is our attempt to formulate these clear biblical teachings.

Yes, but you see, you have only done a part of the task. The next step is to insure there is only one God. How are you going to do that? What you have said so far is that there are three separate, unique personalities, which amounts to saying there are three gods. So you really have your work cut out for you.
Also, those pictures of Christ are totally inappropriate. For one thing, they don't resemble a sematic person of the time of Christ at all. Way, way too Anglo. WASPS love it, but those of us into serious biblical studies like far more accuracy.