Trinity

[Albion]

to me it seems that the Trinity is just over-complicating things.

I see God as God.

Jesus is how we relate to him, and the Holy Spirit is the agent of action.

but basically, it's all the same.

To some extent I agree with you. However, it does make a difference if Christ is God in the flesh or merely a spokesman or messenger for God.

 

[Jonathan95]

Jesus said blasphemy against Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. But that all other manner of Sin and blasphemy will be forgiven. So it means Holy Spirit is a distinct person. The bible also says "Don't grieve The Holy Spirit", and it doesn't say "Don't grieve Jesus" or "Don't grieve The Father", right?

So for Holy Spirit to feel this grief deeper, he must be a distinct person.

(Isaiah 63:10) But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them.

 

[2ducklow]

Jesus said blasphemy against Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. But that all other manner of Sin and blasphemy will be forgiven. So it means Holy Spirit is a distinct person. The bible also says "Don't grieve The Holy Spirit", and it doesn't say "Don't grieve Jesus" or "Don't grieve The Father", right?

So for Holy Spirit to feel this grief deeper, he must be a distinct person.

(Isaiah 63:10) But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them.

yea OR theholy spirit is the spirit of God the Father and God the Father personifies his spirit in scripture.

so which makes more sense, 3 is one, or The holy spirit is the spirit of god the Father? the bible says God is holy , and God is spirit, and God is God the Father so that means god the father is the holy spirit.

Choose theunderstanding that makes the most sense, or if making nonsense is to be prefered then choose the most nonsensical of the two.

 

[eachallberg]

I want to know what you all think about the Trinity, because this topic just caught my attention as I look at it more deeper a few day ago. According to Christianity, the Trinity make up the Godhead: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. They are 3 distinct person, each having its own role. If the Holy Spirit is the third person of the Trinity, then the Holy Spirit is not the Father. Using this same logic Jesus could not be God. But most of us would agree based on Christian doctrine, Jesus is God. Can somebody explain this?

Furthermore, what I'm really concern at the moment is that if the Holy Spirit is not the Father then it cannot be God. Wikipedia states that the Holy Spirit is GOD. So here I am confused. If the Holy Spirit is God, then wouldn't that in conflict with the Father being the one God? If we're to accept this, then are we saying there is 3 gods? I don't think so. It is still the same God, but how can the Holy Spirit and Jesus be God if they are distinct? Anybody want to comment on that?

The worship of a triadic godhead is consistent with Baal worship. Maybe started in ancient Phoenicia. They marked there coins with three pillars to represent that.

I'm told Masonic temples have 3 pillars inside to represent a trinity said to represent those that built the temple, but it's exactly the same symbols used to represent Baal and his parents. The pagan religion of Baal focuses on sex.

Maybe a reason why a perverted book like songs of Solomon was always a part of the biblical canon.

We can say what God is not.
And it's not good enough to say what God is.

What about being born of Wisdom?
(Luke 7:35)
Scripture says that Wisdom(/Sophia) and Christ are BOTH the first born of creation, but why doesn't mainstream recognize this?

Maybe for the pagans that help rule the world sake?

It's safe when your conscience leads you but dangerous when man guides you.

Peace and grace be with all of you.

 

[Jonathan95]

The worship of a triadic godhead is consistent with Baal worship. Maybe started in ancient Phoenicia. They marked there coins with three pillars to represent that.

I'm told Masonic temples have 3 pillars inside to represent a trinity said to represent those that built the temple, but it's exactly the same symbols used to represent Baal and his parents. The pagan religion of Baal focuses on sex.

Maybe a reason why a perverted book like songs of Solomon was always a part of the biblical canon.

We can say what God is not.
And it's not good enough to say what God is.

What about being born of Wisdom?
(Luke 7:35)
Scripture says that Wisdom(/Sophia) and Christ are BOTH the first born of creation, but why doesn't mainstream recognize this?

Maybe for the pagans that help rule the world sake?

It's safe when your conscience leads you but dangerous when man guides you.

Peace and grace be with all of you.

Songs of Solomon perverted? Why? Love between husband and wife is something pure and godly. Songs of Solomon is also a picture of love between Jesus (bridegroom) and the bride.

Also, just because the Pagans had their trinity doesn't mean the biblical trinitarian God is Pagan or something like that. Satan always wants to pervert the works of God etc.

Also what do you mean Wisdom (/Sophia) being the firstborn? Who is Sophia? It makes no mention of her.

 

[eachallberg]

John, peace.

Songs of Solomon perverted? Why? Love between husband and wife is something pure and godly. Songs of Solomon is also a picture of love between Jesus (bridegroom) and the bride.

Your confusing lust with love.

How do you think that has anything to do with Jesus or the Church?

Also, just because the Pagans had their trinity doesn't mean the biblical trinitarian God is Pagan or something like that. Satan always wants to pervert the works of God etc.

Had? They still have it. Something like that? Do some research.

Also what do you mean Wisdom (/Sophia) being the firstborn? Who is Sophia? It makes no mention of her.

Proverbs 8

1Does not wisdom call out?
Does not understanding raise her voice?
2On the heights along the way,
where the paths meet, she takes her stand;
3beside the gates leading into the city,
at the entrances, she cries aloud:
4"To you, O men, I call out;
I raise my voice to all mankind.
5You who are simple, gain prudence;
you who are foolish, gain understanding.
6Listen, for I have worthy things to say;
I open my lips to speak what is right.
7My mouth speaks what is true,
for my lips detest wickedness.
8All the words of my mouth are just;
none of them is crooked or perverse.
9To the discerning all of them are right;
they are faultless to those who have knowledge.
10Choose my instruction instead of silver,
knowledge rather than choice gold,
11for wisdom is more precious than rubies,
and nothing you desire can compare with her.
12"I, wisdom, dwell together with prudence;
I possess knowledge and discretion.
13To fear the Lord is to hate evil;
I hate pride and arrogance,
evil behavior and perverse speech.
14Counsel and sound judgment are mine;
I have understanding and power.
15By me kings reign
and rulers make laws that are just;
16by me princes govern,
and all nobles who rule on earth.a
17I love those who love me,
and those who seek me find me.
18With me are riches and honor,
enduring wealth and prosperity.
19My fruit is better than fine gold;
what I yield surpasses choice silver.
20I walk in the way of righteousness,
along the paths of justice,
21bestowing wealth on those who love me
and making their treasuries full.

22"The Lord brought me forth as the first of his works before his deeds of old;

23I was appointed from eternity,
from the beginning, before the world began.
24When there were no oceans, I was given birth,
when there were no springs abounding with water;
25before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I was given birth,
26before he made the earth or its fields
or any of the dust of the world.
27I was there when he set the heavens in place,
when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
28when he established the clouds above
and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
29when he gave the sea its boundary
so the waters would not overstep his command,
and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
30Then I was the craftsman at his side.
I was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his presence,
31rejoicing in his whole world
and delighting in mankind.

32"Now then, my sons, listen to me;
blessed are those who keep my ways.

33Listen to my instruction and be wise;
do not ignore it.
34Blessed is the man who listens to me,
watching daily at my doors,
waiting at my doorway.
35For whoever finds me finds life
and receives favor from the Lord.
36But whoever fails to find me harms himself;
all who hate me love death."

 

[tezboski99]

The trinity is not a scriptural teaching. There are a variety of ways to prove this but the simplest is that Jehovah GOD PROMISES understanding of the scriptures correct? Jesus gave this understanding to his followers and clearly expressed how important it is for everlasting life. If none of His followers understand the trinity then it is obviously not from GOD.

Proverbs 2:6 For the Lord grants wisdom! From his mouth come knowledge and understanding.

John 17:3 And this is the way to have eternal life—to know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, the one you sent to earth.

Luke 24:44-45 Then he said, “When I was with you before, I told you that everything written about me in the law of Moses and the prophets and in the Psalms must be fulfilled.” 45 Then he opened their minds to understand the Scriptures.

It makes no sense whatsoever that the true GOD would base our eternal life on a doctrine that noone, even his devout followers, can understand and yet promise understanding. The obvious conclusion is either GOD lied to us, failed,to fulfill his promise, or our understanding of the trinity is false.

Some say "it's a mystery" but even that is false for the 1st century congregation fully understood that too!!

Colossians 1:9b-10, 25-26
We continually ask God to fill you with the knowledge of his will through all the wisdom and understanding that the Spirit gives, 10 so that you may live a life worthy of the Lord and please him in every way: bearing fruit in every good work, growing in the knowledge of God. I have become its servant by the commission God gave me to present to you the word of God in its fullness— 26 the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the Lord’s people.

Matthew 13:11 He replied, “You are permitted to understand the secrets of the Kingdom of Heaven, but others are not.

 

[Albion]

The trinity is not a scriptural teaching. There are a variety of ways to prove this but the simplest is that Jehovah GOD PROMISES understanding of the scriptures correct?

Well, you've spent your entire post explaining that God gives us understanding, not that the Trinity is a false doctrine. It IS clearly indicated in Scripture, although the particular explanation given by the Council of Nicaea was its own. That's about the most direct way of putting it.

 

[JoJo50]

I’ve post so many times, God’s words showing the HS isn’t a being, and there’s NO trinity. Dispite satan having it placed ONCE, (that I’ve seen, in the bible). still many would rather follow a false teaching than believe the truth. After all, many still don’t want to believe Jesus WAS created ,(Colo.1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature), As shown here. Also…(Pro.8:22-30), here Jesus speaks from Heaven, (before he was sent). he speaks of the LORD, (which the name Jehovah was removed), “possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old” Jesus also said…he was with God before the mountains, waters and hills were created. Jesus said …”When he prepared the heavens, I was there” Jesus was HIS Father’s “delight”. so we see here, there’s so far…TWO high beings, Jesus NEVER said, there were 3, man did!

Jesus said in order to gain eternal life, we mush KNOW him and his Father, (John 17:3), where is the third being? Many misunderstand through lies, what Jesus said here, (John 10:30 -I and my Father are one). As meaning they are one God, he meant him and his Father are on the same accord. just as a husband and wife are, (Matt. 19:5), Did Jesus mean they were now ONE BODY? Jesus always show it was JUST him and his Father, being the highest power. It was ONLY those two who were mention concerning the most important things. (John 15:23 He that hateth me hateth my Father also), NO third being! See…(Mark 13:32), Jesus showed not man, the Angels or even HIM, know the end, ONLY the Father. So why wasn't this third being mention? Isn’t “he” part of them?

Many believe the HS is a being ,because of what Jesus said here, (Matt.12:31,32). Has ANYONE stopped and wonder, why did Jesus show one can even speak ill against him. Yet didn’t even MENTION, the Father, ONLY speak NOT against the HS. Simple, Jehovah God, Jesus FATHER'S words are powerful, so are his actions. NO ONE can go up against him. So ANY who speak ILL against his words, actions. Just signed their name on satans death list. The HS is Jehovah causing things to be, exam., (Acts 7:55,56- But he, being full of the Holy Ghost…), he was FULL of, God allowed this man to see into Heaven, using his WILL or Power. there was NO HS was standing next to him. Giving him the power to see.

John who wrote the book of Revelation, Also was blessed with the God’s WILL or HS, to see into Heaven ,(Rev.7:10), here he sees Jesus, and God sitting on a throne. Where’s the third being? Again here ,(Rev.5:1-8), John is bless by the WILL OF Jehovah God to see into Heaven. Also notice the ONLY one here who’s worthy to take the book out of God’s hand, is Jesus. My question.. where is the third being? Why wasn’t “he” seen? John became sad because he thought ..”no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book” he didn’t even see Jesus who was, (“in the midst of the elders"). the elders were seen, now some may say, the HS wasn’t seen just like the Angels wasn’t. but the Angels don’t have a specific job to do like the elders, (Rev. 14:1-4 ,which is the 144,000). These will rule with Jesus over the earth ,(Rev.5:10).

Once again proof the HS isn’t a being ,(Acts 11:24 For he was a good man, and full of the Holy Ghost and of faith: and much people was added unto the Lord). Filled with NOT ,there with him. Again, the HS is God causing to be…(Matt.3:16,17), it was God who made a dove appear over Jesus, when he was pleased with his son. He didn’t send any third being. notice here…(Acts.2:1-11), during the Pentecost, many speaking their own language. With the power of God, (“cloven tongues like as of fire“), NOT a third being! started speaking in each others tongues, or languages. and Just to get this out, the lies of speaking gibberish wasn’t from God. These people spoke words others could UNDERSTAND ,(Acts2:6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language).

As I said many times, with teachings of “hell” ,many should do research on the origins of the “trinity” here's a bit…The pagan origin of the Trinity- This Nimrod -together with his wife Semiramis and child Tammuz- would become models for the pagan three-in-one sungod and the following Holy Trinity of the Christians. Semiramis was famous for being a beautiful woman and was worshipped as 'the queen of heavens' and 'Goddess of castles'. She was also worshipped as 'Holy Spirit'. And that is because she gave birth to the reincarnation of Nimrod: the son 'Tammuz'. Later on the Roman Catholic Church would adopt this pagan doctrine and would use these occult gods and their holy days as church-doctrines, gods and holy days. In this way the Roman Catholic Church copied paganism in the churches; still existing in all churches today, known as 'The Holy Trinity' (ANY who wants the truth, WILL find it). peace

 

[toLiJC]

God the Father is the main God, He indeed is the only God, Jesus Christ is the Lord - the only Lord of all this universe, while the Holy Spirit is just the joint spirit of God and Jesus by which They (can) operate (in) the universe remotely

 

[Jonathan95]

God the Father is the main God, He indeed is the only God, Jesus Christ is the Lord - the only Lord of all this universe, while the Holy Spirit is just the joint spirit of God and Jesus by which They (can) operate (in) the universe remotely

Rom 10:9 > "the Lord" > Kyrios (definition ....c) this title is given to: God, the Messiah)

In the Greek translation of the Bible that was used in the time of Jesus, the personal name of God, YAHWEH, was translated into Greek as (kyrios), usually translated into English as Lord or Master.

Jesus also stated "I AM" which means he's God, unless he was blaspheming and didn't die for our Sins, which HE DID (he died for our sins, so he was God and didn't blaspheme)

"...for the Lord searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever." -(1 Chronicles 28:9)

Jesus constantly knew what people were thinking in their hearts etc.

 

[eachallberg]

Jesus also stated "I AM" which means he's God, unless he was blaspheming and didn't die for our Sins, which HE DID (he died for our sins, so he was God and didn't blaspheme)
.

Maybe he was saying before Abraham, he was?

Jesus was created by God. See Colossians 1:15.

 

[Albion]

Maybe he was saying before Abraham, he was?

If he'd said "I was," you'd have a point there, that's for sure.

 

[SavedByGrace82]

Jude 1:5

5 Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved[a] a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.

If the earliest manuscript says Jesus, this will be wery interesting! Because I know that some manuscript says Lord or God.

 

[tezboski99]

Well, you've spent your entire post explaining that God gives us understanding, not that the Trinity is a false doctrine. It IS clearly indicated in Scripture, although the particular explanation given by the Council of Nicaea was its own. That's about the most direct way of putting it.

If no one can understand it then did GOD lie about granting understanding? It can't be both ways. GOD can't lie and he fulfills all of His promises correct? If no one can understand the doctrine how can it possibly be from the GOD that grants wisdom and understanding? Also it doesn't fit any of the illustrations provided in the scriptures. An Eternal GOD the Father that is co-equal with His Son along with a co-equal Holy Ghost persona doesn't fit the temple arrangement of the Aaronic priesthood.

The high priest offered sacrifices in behalf of the people, represented them before GOD in worship and taught the congregation about Jehovah. That's the same thing a priest does today. That's exactly what Jesus does and his position in the arrangement is illustrated by Aaron. Aaron was no more equal to GOD than Jesus is equal to GOD.

If the illustration GOD provides isn't perfect then either the trinity doctrine is off or the illustration is off. "Let GOD be found true" is what the scriptures bring out correct?

The trinity isn't a mystery is just a false teaching.

 

[Jonathan95]

Maybe he was saying before Abraham, he was?

Jesus was created by God. See Colossians 1:15.

Keep reading... Col 1:16-20~.

"And Jesus said, I am..." -Mark 14:62.

See more I am's in Gospel of John.. "I am ..the way, the truth and the life" etc.

The phrase "Alpha and Omega" is used of the Father and Jesus in Revelation (Rev. 1:8; 21:6; 22:13), speaking to the eternal nature of God, thus affirming the deity of Christ.

Compare Isaiah 41:4, "I the Lord, the first, and with the last;'-- Isaiah 44:6, "I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God;" -- Isaiah 48:12, "I am he; I am the first, I also am the last." There can be no doubt that the language here would be naturally understood as implying divinity, and it could be properly applied to no one but the true God. The obvious interpretation here would be to apply this to the Lord Jesus. . . .

Three times in Revelation, Jesus refers to Himself as the first and last (Rev. 1:17; 2:8; 22:13). And once, He uses it in direct connection with the phrase "Alpha and Omega."

"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end" (Rev. 22:13).
The phrase "first and last" is used by God in Isaiah (Is. 44:6; 48:12), and is used by Jesus of Himself in Revelation (Rev. 1:17; 2:8; 22:13).

Jude 1:5

5 Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved[a] a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.

If the earliest manuscript says Jesus, this will be wery interesting! Because I know that some manuscript says Lord or God.

Yes, we all know it was God who saved people out of the land of Egypt, thus Jesus is God.

 

[Albion]

If no one can understand it

Did I say that no one can understand it? If I gave that impression somehow, I'll have to edit that choice of words.

In fact, the Bible's description of the three persona of the triune God is so explicit that no other conclusion is indicated. Therefore, in a way, the situation is just the opposite of being unintelligible. It's compelling.

If no one can understand the doctrine

as I said above...

 

[SavedByGrace82]

Yes, we all know it was God who saved people out of the land of Egypt, thus Jesus is God.

Yes I Agree!

I have a question for all of you, when you read this bibleverse - what does that mean?

Gen 48:14-16

14 And Israel stretched out his right hand, and laid it upon Ephraim's head, who was the younger, and his left hand upon Manasseh's head, guiding his hands wittingly; for Manasseh was the first-born.

15 And he blessed Joseph, and said: 'The G-d before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the G-d who hath been my shepherd all my life long unto this day,

16 the angel who hath redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named in them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.'

I copyed this verse from Tanakh - but in some translations it says in vers 16:

16 the angel who hath redeemed me from all evil, may he bless the lads;

 

[eachallberg]

I don't agree that it was Jesus that brought the Jews out of Egypt. It was a god or gods in a "pillar of cloud". My interpretation is that it's the Watchers or a Watcher posing as God.

God doesn't play favorites. So when scripture tells me God did, I feel it's not God. Some god thats not mine favors the Jews.
Are you aware the OT god calls not only the Jews his people but the Egyptians also?

I think Jesus is not God but from God and given the fullness of God as described in Col 1:19.

I believe Jesus is the life, and he doesn't destroy like Jude says.

I was in the fog of Baal worship thinking its Christianity. I look back and shiver. It was my fault I was naive and misinformed.

Jesus prayed to one God. The invisible holy One in heaven.
Jesus was on earth.

God can't be tempted. Jesus was.

Jesus is visible, God isn't.

Peace and understanding be with you.

 

[Jonathan95]

I don't agree that it was Jesus that brought the Jews out of Egypt. It was a god or gods in a "pillar of cloud". My interpretation is that it's the Watchers or a Watcher posing as God.

God doesn't play favorites. So when scripture tells me God did, I feel it's not God. Some god thats not mine favors the Jews.
Are you aware the OT god calls not only the Jews his people but the Egyptians also?

The Egpyptians chose not to be part of GOd's people.

What do you mean you believe "Gods in the pillar"? Don't you believe the Word of God that says it was God? THere's no "Gods", only ONE God (Father, Son and Holy Ghost). "Gods" like Baal aren't Gods, God makes that clear in scripture a lot.

I think Jesus is not God but from God and given the fullness of God as described in Col 1:19.

I believe Jesus is the life, and he doesn't destroy like Jude says.

I was in the fog of Baal worship thinking its Christianity. I look back and shiver. It was my fault I was naive and misinformed.

Jesus prayed to one God. The invisible holy One in heaven.
Jesus was on earth.

God can't be tempted. Jesus was.

Jesus is visible, God isn't.

Peace and understanding be with you.

Ok well this is Unorthodox Theology forum after all. What you think is not biblical, like that Jesus isn't God. Read Gospel of John. Jesus was God in the flesh, yes he could be tempted, yet be God in the flesh.

Jesus was on earth? How does that refute the fact that he was God in the flesh? It was YHWH God who died on the cross. You can debate as much as you want and try to find "loopholes" but it doesn't refute the fact that Jesus was God in the flesh on earth, and that he is God. Since the Word of God doesn't contradict itself.

The first letters of each of these four words spell YHWH, the name of God.

"Yeshua Ha'Nazarei W'Melech Ha'Yehudim"

Jesus had been tried and condemned for "blasphemy". Above the Cross was written, in a simple code, YHWH, the Name of God. This code was clearly visible to the Sanhedrin, which is why they asked Pontius Pilate to change what He had written over the Cross, to break the code. This is recorded in John 19:21-22, "Therefore the chief priests of the Jews said to Pilate, "Do not write, 'The King of the Jews,' but, 'He said, "I am the King of the Jews".' Pilate answered, "What I have written, I have written",

Yes I Agree!

I have a question for all of you, when you read this bibleverse - what does that mean?

Gen 48:14-16

14 And Israel stretched out his right hand, and laid it upon Ephraim's head, who was the younger, and his left hand upon Manasseh's head, guiding his hands wittingly; for Manasseh was the first-born.

15 And he blessed Joseph, and said: 'The G-d before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the G-d who hath been my shepherd all my life long unto this day,

16 the angel who hath redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named in them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.'

I copyed this verse from Tanakh - but in some translations it says in vers 16:

16 the angel who hath redeemed me from all evil, may he bless the lads;

Well that's just another translation it seems. Because King James Version doesn't translate it as "G-d".