2nd Death

[Mike Reynolds]

In 1 Corinthians 15:44, Paul contrasts what is “natural” (psychikos), derived from psyche (soul), with what is “spiritual” (pneumatikos), with the natural giving way to the spiritual. The question is how far that distinction goes. If “natural” and “spiritual” refer to genuinely different modes of life, is that distinction purely transformational, or could it, in principle, involve the loss of one mode while another persists? That becomes relevant to the language of the “second death.” If it is truly death, something real must be lost. If it is not total nonexistence, then it cannot be the destruction of the whole person. I propose that what dies is the soul, while the spirit persists. I anticipate this is not fully orthodox, so I would be interested in how that is understood.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

The second death is non-existence.

The wages of sin is death Rom6:23

Those who believe in Him shall not perish John3:16

When we die(first death) our bodies sleep according to Jesus

John 11:11 These things He said, and after that He said to them, “Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up.”

12 Then His disciples said, “Lord, if he sleeps he will get well.” 13 However, Jesus spoke of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about taking rest in sleep.

14 Then Jesus said to them plainly, “Lazarus is dead

This is the first death. The dead know nothing Ecc9:5 a body without a spirit is dead James 2:26

The second death is when Judgement happens - either we will be given eternal life or the second death which mean being no more.

Mat 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Rev 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before [c]God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[Mike Reynolds]

Non-existence is annihilationism, even for the damned, so that is not orthodox Christianity. (Not to be confused with EO, RO, GO, UO, and OO, as in eastern, Russian, Greek, Ukrainian, and oriental.)

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Non-existence is annihilationism, even for the damned, so that is not orthodox Christianity. (Not to be confused with EO, RO, GO, UO, and OO.)

Its in the Bible which is what I go by. The majority have rarely been right when it comes to the word of God, both as the example in Scripture and what Jesus said Mat7:13-14 Rev12:17


Its literally spelled out what happens in the second death.

 

[Mike Reynolds]

Its in the Bible which is what I go by. The majority have rarely been right when it comes to the word of God, both as the example in Scripture and what Jesus said Mat7:13-14 Rev12:17

If you claim you're the only Christian, it matters very little if you read the Bible. LOL Not that that is what you are claiming, it is very unclear what you are claiming other than personal authority, which is not very impressive in and of itself. If you do not know which two verses I'm talking about that refer to the 2nd death are, then it's probably best to leave room for someone who does to comment.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

If you claim you're the only Christian, it matters very little if you read the Bible. LOL Not that that is what you are claiming, it is very unclear what you are claiming other than personal authority, which is not very impressive in and of itself. If you do not know which two verses I'm talking about that refer to the 2nd death are, then it's probably best to leave room for someone who does to comment.

Please use Scripture to show where I am wrong, thats where I place my trust, in the word of God. Using our own words to debate Scripture is never really fruitful.

I am okay agreeing to disagree

 

[Mike Reynolds]

Please use Scripture to show where I am wrong, thats where I place my trust, in the word of God. Using our own words to debate Scripture is never really fruitful.

I asked you to demonstrate that you even know which two verses I'm talking about, and you ask me for verses that prove you don't know that?! LOL You are quite a character!

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I believe Paul explains himself in this very passage which reconciles with the rest of Scriptures

1 Chron 15:44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made[i] of dust; the second Man is [j]the Lord from heaven. 48 As was the [k]man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we[l] shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.

​

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a [m]mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

55 “O[n] Death, where is your sting?
O Hades, where is your victory?”
56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your labor is not in vain in the Lord.

 

[Aussie52]

The second death is non-existence.

The wages of sin is death Rom6:23

Those who believe in Him shall not perish John3:16

When we die(first death) our bodies sleep according to Jesus

John 11:11 These things He said, and after that He said to them, “Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up.”

12 Then His disciples said, “Lord, if he sleeps he will get well.” 13 However, Jesus spoke of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about taking rest in sleep.

14 Then Jesus said to them plainly, “Lazarus is dead

This is the first death. The dead know nothing Ecc9:5 a body without a spirit is dead James 2:26

The second death is when Judgement happens - either we will be given eternal life or the second death which mean being no more.

Mat 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Rev 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before [c]God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

The idea of 'death' in scripture is 'separation' not nonexistence. When a person dies, they do not cease to exist rather there is a separation of the non-material from the material. Soul/spirit is separated from the body. When God told Adam & Eve, that if they took of the forbidden fruit, they would die. What happened? There was a separation in their relationship with God.
The 'second death' in scripture is a separation of the unsaved soul/spirit from the presence of God.

Disclaimer: I don't 'proof text' my posts. Proof texting is something the Jehovah Witnesses do; it is not a practice I wish to copy.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

The idea of 'death' in scripture is 'separation' not nonexistence. When a person dies, they do not cease to exist rather there is a separation of the non-material from the material. Soul/spirit is separated from the body. When God told Adam & Eve, that if they took of the forbidden fruit, they would die. What happened? There was a separation in their relationship with God.
The 'second death' in scripture is a separation of the unsaved soul/spirit from the presence of God.

Disclaimer: I don't 'proof text' my posts. Proof texting is something the Jehovah Witnesses do; it is not a practice I wish to copy.

I disagree, death/perish means just that. The very first lie in the garden was that Adam and Eve could disobey God and live the opposite of what God said. Sadly this same lie is working today. Adam and Eve had eternal life until they sinned. Once they did, they and everything else was cursed and God separated man from the Tree of Life and they eventually died, just as God promised:

Gen 5:5So all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years; and he died (first death)

Judgement doesn't always come immediate. Judgement for us will be the last day.

John 12: 48 He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him—the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.

The Bible really does tell us everything we need to know, just like those who came before us we can choose to believe Him at His word or doubt Him. I guess its a matter of faith.

 

[David Lamb]

The idea of 'death' in scripture is 'separation' not nonexistence. When a person dies, they do not cease to exist rather there is a separation of the non-material from the material. Soul/spirit is separated from the body. When God told Adam & Eve, that if they took of the forbidden fruit, they would die. What happened? There was a separation in their relationship with God.
The 'second death' in scripture is a separation of the unsaved soul/spirit from the presence of God.

Disclaimer: I don't 'proof text' my posts. Proof texting is something the Jehovah Witnesses do; it is not a practice I wish to copy.

I agree. To say that death means non-existence makes a mockery of the words of Jesus:

(Mat 25:46) And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

How can a person who no longer exists endure any punishment, let alone everlasting punishment?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Its an eternal punishment...it ends, not eternal punishing.

The punishment is eternal:

the wages of sin is death Rom6:23

Rev 20:15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Isa 66:17
“Those who sanctify themselves and purify themselves,
To go to the gardens
After an idol in the midst,
Eating swine’s flesh and the abomination and the mouse,
Shall be consumed together,” says the Lord.

The fire goes out like Sodom and Gomorrah

2 Peter 2:26 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly;

Mal 4:3 You shall trample the wicked,
For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet


Isa 66:24 “And they shall go forth and look
Upon the corpses of the men
Who have transgressed against Me.


To think God is eternally punishing and tormenting people forever and ever is a sad deception from the devil, that millions of churches are teaching. We need to carefully and prayerfully study the Bible for ourselves.

 

[David Lamb]

Its an eternal punishment...it ends, not eternal punishing.

The punishment is eternal= death Rom6:23

To think God is eternally punishing and tormenting people forever and ever is a sad lie from the devil.

As I understand it, it is not from the devil, but from God's word. Whether one says "punishment" or "punishing", it must cease to be at death if death = non-existence. A person cannot be punished if they don't exist. Jesus says 3 times that hell is a place:

(Mar 9:44) where 'THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.'

What is the point of saying that if the person does not go to hell, but their existence ends with their death?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

As I understand it, it is not from the devil, but from God's word. Whether one says "punishment" or "punishing", it must cease to be at death if death = non-existence. A person cannot be punished if they don't exist. Jesus says 3 times that hell is a place:

(Mar 9:44) where 'THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.'

What is the point of saying that if the person does not go to hell, but their existence ends with their death?

Its a misunderstanding of God's word.

No one is going to be able to quench the fire, the punishment is eternal (death), it does not say eternal punishing.

Its the same thing with Sodom and Gomorrah

Jude 1: 7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Can you point to me where Sodom and Gomorrah is burning? Wouldn't wee see it and know about it?

Of course not, because the fire goes out. The punishment is eternal, death, but just like the second death for those not saved, the fire goes out like the example of Sodom and Gomorrah


2 Peter 2:26 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly;

Mal 4:3 You shall trample the wicked,
For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet


Isa 66:24 “And they shall go forth and look
Upon the corpses of the men
Who have transgressed against Me.

God does not promise immortality to the wicked, he promises death, only the saved have immortality. John3:16

 

[David Lamb]

Its a misunderstanding of God's word.

No one is going to be able to quench the fire, the punishment is eternal (death), it does not say eternal punishing.

Its the same thing with Sodom and Gomorrah

Jude 1: 7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Can you point to me where Sodom and Gomorrah is burning? Wouldn't wee see it and know about it?

Of course not, because the fire goes out. The punishment is eternal, death, but just like the second death for those not saved, the fire goes out like the example of Sodom and Gomorrah


2 Peter 2:26 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly;

Mal 4:3 You shall trample the wicked,
For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet


Isa 66:24 “And they shall go forth and look
Upon the corpses of the men
Who have transgressed against Me.

God does not promise immortality to the wicked only the saved. John3:16

I can see that we are not going to agree on this, so rather than repeat ourselves to each other, I will leave the matter there for the sake of other forum members.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I can see that we are not going to agree on this, so rather than repeat ourselves to each other, I will leave the matter there for the sake of other forum members.

If you can show me where we have a city that burns and never goes out.

The Bible is plain on what happens to the wicked its sad we would prefer to believe a narrative that God will torment people forever and ever. Its really an attack on God's character and its sad people don't see this.

Thanks for the discussion and be well.

 

[David Lamb]

Well if you can show me where we have a city that burns and never goes out, the Bible is plain on what happens to the wicked its sad we would prefer to believe a narrative that God will torment people forever and ever. Its really an attack on God's character.

I said I was going to leave it, but I will just say that we were talking about hell, not a city.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I said I was going to leave it, but I will just say that we were talking about hell, not a city.

Hell is the grave or second death.

†ᾅδης háidēs, hah'-dace; from G1 (as negative particle) and G1492; properly, unseen, i.e. "Hades" or the place (state) of departed souls:—grave, hell.

No one is there right now, because judgement is the last day John12:48

Sodom and Gomorrah was the example of what happens to the wicked and eternal fire, it turns into ashes,

Jude 1: 7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

2 Peter 2:26 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly;

 

[David Lamb]

Hell is the grave. No one is there right now, because judgement is the last day John12:48

Sodom and Gomorrah was the example of what happens to the wicked and eternal fire, it turns into ashes,

Jude 1: 7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

2 Peter 2:26 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly;

Please respect my wish to leave this discussion. Thank you.

 

[Aussie52]

Its an eternal punishment...it ends, not eternal punishing.

The punishment is eternal:

the wages of sin is death Rom6:23

Rev 20:15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Isa 66:17
“Those who sanctify themselves and purify themselves,
To go to the gardens
After an idol in the midst,
Eating swine’s flesh and the abomination and the mouse,
Shall be consumed together,” says the Lord.

The fire goes out like Sodom and Gomorrah

2 Peter 2:26 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly;

Mal 4:3 You shall trample the wicked,
For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet


Isa 66:24 “And they shall go forth and look
Upon the corpses of the men
Who have transgressed against Me.


To think God is eternally punishing and tormenting people forever and ever is a sad deception from the devil, that millions of churches are teaching. We need to carefully and prayerfully study the Bible for ourselves.

The last two sentences of your post demonstrate a serious lack of understanding the seriousness of sin. Sin is an abhorrence to our holy God. Sin is rebellion against the King of the universe. It cannot go unpunished. To refuse God's offer of eternal life, in the light of Jesus' agonizing death on the cross, is an unspeakable, horrific act against God. This 'giving God the finger' in His face requires an appropriate punishment, an everlasting punishment as Jesus said.
Peace.