2nd Death

[SabbathBlessings]

The last two sentences of your post demonstrate a serious lack of understanding the seriousness of sin. Sin is an abhorrence to our holy God. Sin is rebellion against the King of the universe. It cannot go unpunished. To refuse God's offer of eternal life, in the light of Jesus' agonizing death on the cross, is an unspeakable, horrific act against God. This 'giving God the finger' in His face requires an appropriate punishment, an everlasting punishment as Jesus said.
Peace.

Actually, its quite the opposite to think our Lord and Savior would forever torture someone shows a misunderstanding of His character. I demonstrated my position from Scripture, not just what has been handed down to me from what the the majority says that can't reconcile their position from the word of God. Jesus said the wages of sin is death, I believe Him at His word. He is the one that can kill both the body and the spirit which means no longer in inexistence. The only way He will be able to wipe away all the tears of the saints and make everything new which would be impossible if loved ones were burning up forever. The fire goes out like the Bible plainly teaches and the sinners turn into ashes.

 

[Aussie52]

Actually, its quite the opposite to think our Lord and Savior would forever torture someone shows a misunderstanding of His character. I demonstrated my position from Scripture, not just what has been handed down to me from what the the majority says that can't reconcile their position from the word of God. Jesus said the wages of sin is death, I believe Him at His word. He is the one that can kill both the body and the spirit which means no longer in inexistence. The only way He will be able to wipe away all the tears of the saints and make everything new which would be impossible if loved ones were burning up forever. The fire goes out like the Bible plainly teaches and the sinners turn into ashes.

I think that your position has more to do with Ellen White and her teachings, than the Word of God.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I think that your position has more to do with Ellen White and her teachings, than the Word of God.

I only quoted Scripture, something you might also want to consider when trying to support your position.

 

[Aussie52]

I don't do 'proof texting', it's what the Jehovah's Witnesses practice. You can use it to support any old heresy.
I noticed that you omitted to admit the influence of Ellen White & her teachings on your life.

 

[Aussie52]

Just a further thought whether you choose to accept it or not.

The orthodox view of the Church from its beginnings has been a belief the doctrine of the eternal, conscious punishment in Hell for the unbeliever.
That this is what Scripture teaches, has been ably demonstrated by numerous theologians and Bible scholars down through the centuries.

Your view ,SabbathBlessings, is one that is outside the orthodox position of the Church. and that of Scripture.
For sure, you are entitled to believe your view and that of SDA Church. But it is a heretical position at best.
Peace.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Just a further thought whether you choose to accept it or not.

The orthodox view of the Church from its beginnings has been a belief the doctrine of the eternal, conscious punishment in Hell for the unbeliever.
That this is what Scripture teaches, has been ably demonstrated by numerous theologians and Bible scholars down through the centuries.

Your view ,SabbathBlessings, is one that is outside the orthodox position of the Church. and that of Scripture.
For sure, you are entitled to believe your view and that of SDA Church. But it is a heretical position at best.
Peace.

You keep defending your position with your own words, I would suggest not just accepting what you consider to be the majority view but what the Bible actually teaches.

At any rate, I guess we will agree to disagree and it will be sorted out soon enough.

Be well.

 

[Aussie52]

You keep defending your position with your own words, I would suggest not just accepting what you consider to be the majority view but what the Bible actually teaches.

At any rate, I guess we will agree to disagree and it will be sorted out soon enough.

Be well.

With all due respect, I don't see the need to defend 'my position', others of far greater knowledge & ability, have already done so. Why try to reinvent the wheel! I believe the majority view, not through some blind acceptance but because I have personally examined the issue, studied the Scriptures and read the theologians.
Peace.

 

[Aussie52]

Its not blind, its in the Bible, not one person has actually addressed the Scriptures, sadly they think their opinions because other people believe it is more powerful than what God said. This is the same pattern of what happened in Scripture. The majority of scholars (scribes and pharisees) have never been right. But just like in the bible people believed that over the plain word of God. Not much has changes.

Perhaps this can be addressed, not with our words but by Scripture because that is to be our guide Psa119:105 not popular opinion.

The wages of sin is death Rom6:23 those who do not believe perish John3:16

Jude 1: 7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Can you point to me where Sodom and Gomorrah is burning?

We can't because the eternal fire turns into ashes just as the Bible said so plainly

2 Peter 2:26 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly;

Rev 20:11 . This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Mal 4:3 You shall trample the wicked,
For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet

Isa 66:24 “And they shall go forth and look
Upon the corpses of the men
Who have transgressed against Me.

Again, its not that the bible is not plain, it not believing what it says.

Just put it to bed and move on.
Peace.

 

[JulieB67]

If it is not total nonexistence, then it cannot be the destruction of the whole person.

I Corinthians 15:44 "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

I go back up to verse 42 -

I Corinthians 15:42 "So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:"

The first is sown into corruption which we know to be true. As soon as the natural body is born it's starts to age, decay, etc. But the spiritual, the second body is raised in incorruption. So I believe the second death refers to the latter at Judgement day.

But when I take the bible as a whole, eternal destruction seems pretty clear to me. Although I know others see it differently.

I was taught in an eternal hell growing up but I just don't see it when I take the Bible as a whole. And I know there are many many others that believe the same. And I'm a non denominational Christian only wanting to seek truth. So I really have no alliance to someone's specific teaching. My only alliance is what I find in the Word. I'm a scripture person and that's what I deal in and derive my beliefs from. Man can lead you astray. I've found that out time and time again. Even the most so called educated people in their line of theology, etc can lead you astray.
That's why I left my own church. I was fed too many false doctrines that did not align with the word of God. It's good to have teachers but we should be seeking out the truth for ourselves to see if it aligns with the Word. And then if one still believes as they do, that's fine. We all have to sail our own ships.
Sorry for going off track but wanted to first explain where I am coming from.

But I think the Malachi verses in 4 seem to align with Christ's teaching in Matthew 3:12 and 10:28.

Malachi 4:1 "For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave then neither root nor branch."

Matthew 3:12 "Whose fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly purge His floor, and gather His wheat into the garner; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."


Matthew 10:28 "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

Destroy and destruction in the context given in these verses tell me that neither root or branch would be left. All that is left is stubble and ashes. Which is what a consuming fire would do. The words unquenchable, etc just means that certainly humans could not quench this fire. But as someone stated -Sodom and Gomorrah is no longer burning. But they are our example of what God will do. And it was called unquenchable as well. And what did he do to them? He turned them into ashes which goes back to Malachi 4. We are told specifically that is the example of what will happen to the ungodly.

II Peter 2:6 "And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;"



All throughout the Bible it's always been life or death. And since when has death not been considered punishment? It was in the OT for many crimes. That was their fate. It was indeed and still is considered a punishment.
But the second death would be "everlasting punishment" The second death is final. It's called the second death for a reason and seems to also align with this verse-

II Thessalonians 1:9 "Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;"

And we see further in Revelation that the former things will pass away and Christ states he makes "all" things new.

I'm just posting my beliefs....

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Its a misunderstanding of God's word.

No one is going to be able to quench the fire, the punishment is eternal (death), it does not say eternal punishing.

Its the same thing with Sodom and Gomorrah

Jude 1: 7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Can you point to me where Sodom and Gomorrah is burning? Wouldn't wee see it and know about it?

Of course not, because the fire goes out. The punishment is eternal, death, but just like the second death for those not saved, the fire goes out like the example of Sodom and Gomorrah


2 Peter 2:26 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly;

Mal 4:3 You shall trample the wicked,
For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet


Isa 66:24 “And they shall go forth and look
Upon the corpses of the men
Who have transgressed against Me.

God does not promise immortality to the wicked, he promises death, only the saved have immortality. John3:16

If the punishment is eternal for Sodom why does Ez 16:53-55 say that God will restore them to their former state?
Maybe the Latin Western Tradition has this idea of eternal punishment all wrong.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

If the punishment is eternal for Sodom why does Ez 16:53-55 say that God will restore them to their former state?
Maybe the Latin Western Tradition has this idea of eternal punishment all wrong.

Ezekiel is comparing the wickedness of Jerusalem to Sodom and Samaria. They have become worse - God's chosen people Eze 16:46-52. Its a comparison, not a plan to literally restore the wickedness of Sodom and Gomorrah. The Bible is clear Sodom and Gomorrah is destroyed the everlasting fire turned to ashes as the example of future wickedness. Gen 19; Jude 7, 2 Pet 2:6

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Ezekiel is comparing the wickedness of Jerusalem to Sodom and Samaria. They have become worse - God's chosen people Eze 16:46-52. Its a comparison, not a plan to literally restore the wickedness of Sodom and Gomorrah. The Bible is clear Sodom and Gomorrah is destroyed the everlasting fire turned to ashes as the example of future wickedness. Gen 19; Jude 7, 2 Pet 2:6

You are reading your tradition into the text.