Trinity

[4thwatcher]

hope you wont mind guys if i share my view.

it is indeed a biblical fact that the doctrine of trinity is unscriptural for no where in the bible will you find the word "trinity" nor a passage stating that there is ONLY ONE GOD EXISTING IN THREE PERSONS...what the bible clearly states about the Diety of the Godhead is this: There is only one God, The Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live... in one Lord Jesus Christ through whom all things came and through whom we live and in the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of truth who guides, teaches and reminds believers into all truth.

-- New King James
1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is only one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.

-- Living Bible
John 14:26 But when the Father sends the Comforter instead of me--and by the Comforter I mean the Holy Spirit--he will teach you much, as well as remind you of everything I myself have told you

if trinitarians do insist that the doctrine of trinity is scriptural, then, let them present their biblical proofs, likewise, for them to present a biblical passage supporting such.

the fact is, the doctrine of trinity talks of the First, Second & Third Person,

(a) Did God ever claim in the New Testament that He is the first person of the trinity?

(b) Did Jesus ever claim in the New Testament that He is the second person of the trinity?

(c) Did the Holy Ghost ever make a statement to any of the ecclesiastical gentlemen that He is the third person of the trinity?


at any rate, guys, have a happy christmas ) cheers!

 

[Peterson]

TOm
I stated thatI I am not a believer in the doctrine of the trinity in any form. I do not believe that the Holy Spirit is a third entity, but is the active mind and personality of the Father. I do believe that Christ is a separate personality from the Father, and by his own admission is submissive to the Father, who is the one Almighty God. This is consistent with the OT and the NT. Jesus Christ is the only moderator between the Father and his creation, and through whom we are saved.
I do not accept the confusing political jibberish that came out of the councils of the fourth century, nor do I accept the self-proclaimed authority of the church and its offspring of the middle ages. I do not accept the traditions of the historic Catholic, Protestant or Eastern churches.

I am not a member of any religious organization, nor would I be. I am a member of the Ekklesia of God (called out ones) which is not identified by group affiliation, but consists of Christians wherever God has placed them. Unfortunately, too many Christians do not get off of the pap and into the meat of the word, and are thus easily led astray.

 

[greymooncrest]

It seems to me that the whole issue can be cleared up by looking at the term "Theos".
Yes, Theos is Greek for God, but when discussing Theos in terms of Polytheology it also implies the forms of Theology, Temple Worship, Mythology, etc.. of the Diety in discussion. One of the big problems encountered early on in Christianity was the tendency to create separate Forms of Worship for Father, Son, and Spirit. It was and still is unheard of to reverance three Divine Personae within a single Monotheistic structure. Peter made this evident on the hill of Transfiguration when he expressed the desire to build three Temples, one for Jesus, one for Moses, and one for Elijah.

The Trinity of the Godhead, is ONE Theos, If it were ever deemed to be Poly"Theos", the next question would be How do we Worship the Father?, How would Worship of the Son be different?, How would the Spirit be Worshipped?

No, I may not be formally educated in Ancient Greek, or Latin, but to my understanding there is no easy Linguistic term that separates a Diety from it's Theology.

 

[Der Alte]

Encyclopedia of Religion (McMillan Books), Page 53:

TRIGLAV, a three headed deity of the heathen Slavs, * * *

... in France, Gallo-Roman sculptures of three-headed gods date from the second to fourth century CE.

Etc, etc, and so on and so forth. Now show some historical documentation and evidence to back this up. I could care less what some 19th-20th century anti-Trinitarian hack said.

Evangelical Dictionary of Theology, Holy Spirit (p.521) * * * bottom of page: The OT does not contain an idea of a semi-independent divine entity, the Holy Spirit.

Read Isaiah 48:15-16. The Spirit is definitely mentioned distinct from YHWH. Ignoring posts and scriptures does nothing for your position but does show a certain amount of fear.

1 Timothy 2:5; "For there is ONE God (Father), and ONE mediator between God (Father) and men, the man Christ Jesus." This is a clear statement that is not difficult to understand. One, means ONE. No third entity involved.

Irrelevant. Christ IS the mediator. The Holy Spirit is the parakletos, comforter. This is a straw man. Nobody claims that the H.S. is a mediator.

Jesus Christ is the only access we have with the father.

Irrelevant the true church, i.e. ekklesia, does not believe or teach that access is through the H.S.

If you check my above post again, you'll notice I said Roman church. I said nothing about the city of Rome. When a religious organization marrys a political civil government, that of itself, should make one highly suspect of its motives. It certainly would no longer be representing Christ. Paul would never had a part in compromising God's word in such a fashion as Nicea. He would have condemned the whole sordid affair.

You have not posted any proof that a religious organization married a political civil government. Most of what you have posted about the early church, Constantine, and the Nicaean council is false.

What you need to do, and you cannot, is produce historical evidence, not the rantings of 19th century malcontents, that all the church leaders in the church at the end of the 3rd, beginning of the 4th century, who had endured years of state persecution, were tortured and their families killed, simply because they were Christians, and would not worship the emperor or Rome's false gods, did nothing, said nothing, while pagan practices were introduced into the church? Can we expect any real evidence or documentation of this, any time soon, or just more of the same old false, unsupported, anti-church stuff you have been posting all along?

 

[Der Alte]

hope you wont mind guys if i share my view.

it is indeed a biblical fact that the doctrine of trinity is unscriptural for no where in the bible will you find the word "trinity" * * *

Oh look here is a new argument we have never heard before. Only dozens of times and many right here on this forum. Do you really think this is a valid argument?

It is indeed a scriptural fact that the word Bible is NEVER found in the scriptures. Therefore anything which refers to the Bible is scripturally false.

The facts have been posted in this thread and other similar threads if you have any real interest then read what has been posted, instead of repeating the same old knee jerk, empty, arguments that others who follow false teachers have already posted. .

 

[4thwatcher]

der arter stated: The facts have been posted in this thread and other similar threads if you have any real interest then read what has been posted, instead of repeating the same old knee jerk, empty, arguments that others who follow false teachers have already posted.

i've read through all the posts, der alter, from the start of this thread to the current page... im just sharing my view and since you're reacting to my post, let me ask you these and hope you supply me with straight forward answers:

* the fact: the doctrine of trinity talks of the First, Second & Third Person,

(a) Did God ever claim in the New Testament that He is the first person of the trinity?

(b) Did Jesus ever claim in the New Testament that He is the second person of the trinity?

(c) Did the Holy Ghost ever make a statement to any of the ecclesiastical gentlemen that He is the third person of the trinity?

(d) present biblical proof that trinity is scriptural or a biblical proof stating that there is ONLY ONE GOD EXISTING IN THREE PERSONS.


hope you'll answer me straight to the point, der alter cheers!

 

[Der Alte]

i've read through all the posts, der alter, from the start of this thread to the current page... im just sharing my view and since you're reacting to my post, let me ask you these and hope you supply me with straight forward answers:

* the fact: the doctrine of trinity talks of the First, Second & Third Person,

(a) Did God ever claim in the New Testament that He is the first person of the trinity?

(b) Did Jesus ever claim in the New Testament that He is the second person of the trinity?

(c) Did the Holy Ghost ever make a statement to any of the ecclesiastical gentlemen that He is the third person of the trinity?

(d) present biblical proof that trinity is scriptural or a biblical proof stating that there is ONLY ONE GOD EXISTING IN THREE PERSONS.


hope you'll answer me straight to the point, der alter cheers!

[font=times new roman, palatino linotype]Sure, just as soon as you provide me with scriptural proof for the words you are using, such as "Bible," "Biblical", and "ecclesiastical." I hope you will answer me straight and to the point. And OBTW which of my scripturally supported answers on this thread do you disagree with? You claimed to have read them.

Here are few of my earlier posts where I cite many scriptures in support of my position.

http://www.christianforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=1232477&postcount=8

http://www.christianforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=1234007&postcount=13

http://www.christianforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=1382285&postcount=144

This particular link shows how the ONLY Trinity, other than Christianity, was in Judaism before the Christian era. The Trinity doctrine cannot have been copied from pagan religions because there was NO pagan culture in existence that had a Trinity or even a Triad of gods. (Most anti-Trinitarians do not know the difference.)

http://www.christianforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=1312854&postcount=133

http://www.christianforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=1386052&postcount=154

http://www.christianforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=1387165&postcount=159

http://www.christianforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=1387536&postcount=161
[/font]

 

[4thwatcher]

YOU HAVENT ANSWERED MY QUESTIONS TO YOU YET, DER ALTER, AND I BELIEVE IT'S BUT PROPER FOR YOU TO ANSWER ME FIRST BEFORE YOU START SUBSTANTIATING YOUR STAND ABOUT TRINITY, AND START GOING INTO DEEPER DISCUSSION ABOUT THE MATTER.

AGAIN,

* the fact: the doctrine of trinity talks of the First, Second & Third Person,

(a) Did God ever claim in the New Testament that He is the first person of the trinity?

(b) Did Jesus ever claim in the New Testament that He is the second person of the trinity?

(c) Did the Holy Ghost ever make a statement to any of the ecclesiastical gentlemen/NEW TESTAMENT CHRISTIANS that He is the third person of the trinity?

(d) present biblical/HOLY SCRIPTURAL proof that trinity is indeed scriptural or a biblical/HOLY SCRIPTURAL proof stating that there is ONLY ONE GOD EXISTING IN THREE PERSONS.


WAITING FOR YOUR straight to the point ANSWERS, der alter! NO NEED TO EXPOUND NOR DEFEND YOUR ANSWERS AT THE MOMENT. QUESTIONS A,B, & C IS ANSWERABLE BY JUST YES OR NO, AND FOR D, A HOLY SCRIPTURAL PASSAGE SUPPORTING YOUR STAND. cheers!

 

[Der Alte]

YOU HAVENT ANSWERED MY QUESTIONS TO YOU YET, DER ALTER, AND I BELIEVE IT'S BUT PROPER FOR YOU TO ANSWER ME FIRST BEFORE YOU START SUBSTANTIATING YOUR STAND ABOUT TRINITY, AND START GOING INTO DEEPER DISCUSSION ABOUT THE MATTER.

AGAIN,

* the fact: the doctrine of trinity talks of the First, Second & Third Person,

(a) Did God ever claim in the New Testament that He is the first person of the trinity?

(b) Did Jesus ever claim in the New Testament that He is the second person of the trinity?

(c) Did the Holy Ghost ever make a statement to any of the ecclesiastical gentlemen that He is the third person of the trinity?

(d) present biblical/HOLY SCRIPTURAL proof that trinity is indeed scriptural or a biblical/HOLY SCRIPTURAL proof stating that there is ONLY ONE GOD EXISTING IN THREE PERSONS.


WAITING FOR YOUR straight to the point ANSWERS, der alter! QUESTIONS A,B, & C IS ANSWERABLE BY JUST YES OR NO ONLY AND FOR D, A HOLY SCRIPTURAL PASSAGE SUPPORTING YOUR STAND. cheers!

Well my friend I don't think you are in any position to demand anything from anybody on this forum. I have been involved in this particular thread from page one, now you come along and start demanding things without responding to anything that has been posted. Also you are very rude all capital letters is the equivalent of shouting.

If you want to get involved in this discussion then comment on something that has already been discussed, otherwise go and start your own thread.

If you see anyone referring to either the Father, Son, or Holy Spirit as first, second, or third person let me know and I will ask them about it. Until then this question is irrelevant. I don't think anyone here has done that.

As I said twice you jump into the middle of an ongoing discussion and start harping about things which have not even been mentioned in this particular thread.

Now let us examine your juvenile questions, which you think are going to prove something or other. Was Jesus a person? Was Peter, James, John, Matthew, Jude, or anyone else who is mentioned in the scriptures a person? Answer yes or no? Where do the scriptures ever call anyone a "person?" Where does anyone in the totality of scriptures ever refer to themself as a "person?" Do you know the answer? None! Zero! The word "person" does NOT appear in scripture, therefore according to what you are trying to prove, nobody in the entire scriptures is a person.

 

[4thwatcher]

Well my friend I don't think you are in any position to demand anything from anybody on this forum.

i've just posted my view about the matter and you reacted to what i posted.. so, i am prompted to present and substantiate my stands ... likewise, sorry but im not being rude.. im just sharing my view

If you want to get involved in this discussion then comment on something that has already been discussed, otherwise go and start your own thread.

ooppss ...my apology then, cheers !

Where do the scriptures ever call anyone a "person?"

Genesis 46:26
All those who went to Egypt with Jacob-those who were his direct descendants, not counting his sons' wives-numbered sixty-six persons.

Exodus 12:4
If any household is too small for a whole lamb, they must share one with their nearest neighbor, having taken into account the number of people there are. You are to determine the amount of lamb needed in accordance with what each person will eat.

Exodus 16:16
This is what the LORD has commanded: 'Each one is to gather as much as he needs. Take an omer [ 16:16 That is, probably about 2 quarts (about 2 liters); also in verses 18, 32, 33 and 36 ] for each person you have in your tent.' "

Exodus 16:22
On the sixth day, they gathered twice as much-two omers [ 16:22 That is, probably about 4 quarts (about 4.5 liters) ] for each person-and the leaders of the community came and reported this to Moses.


Exodus 22:11
the issue between them will be settled by the taking of an oath before the LORD that the neighbor did not lay hands on the other person's property. The owner is to accept this, and no restitution is required.

Exodus 22:11
the issue between them will be settled by the taking of an oath before the LORD that the neighbor did not lay hands on the other person's property. The owner is to accept this, and no restitution is required.

Exodus 22:20
"Whoever sacrifices to any god other than the LORD must be destroyed. [ 22:20 The Hebrew term refers to the irrevocable giving over of things or persons to the LORD , often by totally destroying them. ]

Exodus 23:7
Have nothing to do with a false charge and do not put an innocent or honest person to death, for I will not acquit the guilty.

Exodus 36:1
So Bezalel, Oholiab and every skilled person to whom the LORD has given skill and ability to know how to carry out all the work of constructing the sanctuary are to do the work just as the LORD has commanded."

Exodus 36:2
Then Moses summoned Bezalel and Oholiab and every skilled person to whom the LORD had given ability and who was willing to come and do the work.

Exodus 38:26
one beka per person, that is, half a shekel, [ 38:26 That is, about 1/5 ounce (about 5.5 grams) ] according to the sanctuary shekel, from everyone who had crossed over to those counted, twenty years old or more, a total of 603,550 men.


der alter, THERE ARE YOUR HOLY SCRIPTURAL PASSAGE FOR THE WORD "PERSON"... happy?...MIND YOU, THOSE ARE JUST FROM GENESIS & EXODUS... HAVENT POSTED YET THE OTHER VERSES FROM OTHER HOLY SCRIPTURAL BOOKS ... DONT ASK ME FOR QUESTIONS


NOW,


AGAIN,

* the fact: the doctrine of trinity talks of the First, Second & Third Person,

(a) Did God ever claim in the New Testament that He is the first person of the trinity?

(b) Did Jesus ever claim in the New Testament that He is the second person of the trinity?

(c) Did the Holy Ghost ever make a statement to any of the ecclesiastical gentlemen/NEW TESTAMENT CHRISTIANS that He is the third person of the trinity?

(d) present biblical/HOLY SCRIPTURAL proof that trinity is indeed scriptural or a biblical/HOLY SCRIPTURAL proof stating that there is ONLY ONE GOD EXISTING IN THREE PERSONS.


WAITING FOR YOUR straight to the point ANSWERS, der alter! NO NEED TO EXPOUND NOR DEFEND YOUR ANSWERS AT THE MOMENT. QUESTIONS A,B, & C IS ANSWERABLE BY JUST YES OR NO, AND FOR D, A HOLY SCRIPTURAL PASSAGE SUPPORTING YOUR STAND. cheers!

 

[Der Alte]

i've just posted my view about the matter and you reacted to what i posted.. so, i am prompted to present and substantiate my stands ... likewise, sorry but im not being rude.. im just sharing my view

ALL CAPITAL letters is rude it is the same as shouting. And OBTW did you post any scripture in support of your view? I must have missed those. I mean surely you must have posted scriptures, in support of your view, since you are demanding that I or anyone else post scripture to defend a position that no one has stated.

AGAIN,

* the fact: the doctrine of trinity talks of the First, Second & Third Person,

Where? Which doctrine, where is is recorded? Can you produce any documentation that some Trinity doctrine, somewhere "talks of the First, Second, and Third person? If you find such a document that is where you should be asking your question. I haven't, and I don't know of anyone in this thread who has, used that particular terminology, first, second, and third.

And since you are the one who brought up the subject of "person" and are implying that since that terminology is not in the N.T. it is unscriptural, don't you think you need to establish if anyone is ever called a person? If, as you are implying, the lack of the word person in one instance means it is unscriptural then the lack in all instances should prove the same thing.

(a) Did God ever claim in the New Testament that He is the first person of the trinity.

Did anyone in the entire O.T. and N.T. ever claim that they were a person? If not, then they are NOT persons, according to your logic.

(b) Did Jesus ever claim in the New Testament that He is the second person of the trinity?

Did anyone in the entire O.T. and N.T. ever claim that they were a person? If not, then they are NOT persons, according to your logic.

(c) Did the Holy Ghost ever make a statement to any of the ecclesiastical gentlemen/NEW TESTAMENT CHRISTIANS that He is the third person of the trinity?

Did anyone in the entire O.T. and N.T. ever claim that they were a person? If not, then they are NOT persons, according to your logic.

(d) present biblical/HOLY SCRIPTURAL proof that trinity is indeed scriptural or a biblical/HOLY SCRIPTURAL proof stating that there is ONLY ONE GOD EXISTING IN THREE PERSONS.

I have already posted scripture in this thread and linked to it. You have ignored it.

WAITING FOR YOUR straight to the point ANSWERS, der alter! NO NEED TO EXPOUND NOR DEFEND YOUR ANSWERS AT THE MOMENT. QUESTIONS A,B, & C IS ANSWERABLE BY JUST YES OR NO, AND FOR D, A HOLY SCRIPTURAL PASSAGE SUPPORTING YOUR STAND. cheers!

I'm waiting for you to address what has already been posted weeks before you even joined this forum. And I told you before, ALL CAPITAL letters is rude, it is the equivalent of shouting.

I'm waiting for your straight to the point answers to my question about the term, "person." Was Jesus a person? Was Peter a person? Was Paul a person? Yes or no? No need to expound nor defend your answer at the moment.

All I want you to do is define your terms. How are you using the term, "person?" If I understand you correctly, someone is not a person unless they say they are, and you are implying that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not persons because they never say that they are.

So are any of the many, many individuls named in the N.T. persons? If none of the individuals mentioned in the N.T. are "persons" because they do not say they are, then we can move on.

 

[4thwatcher]

And since you are the one who brought up the subject of "person" and are implying that since that terminology is not in the N.T. it is unscriptural, don't you think you need to establish if anyone is ever called a person? If, as you are implying, the lack of the word person in one instance means it is unscriptural then the lack in all instances should prove the same thing.

GOTCHA der alter, first you asked me to show scriptural proof about the word "person" & i just enumerated some verses from genesis & exodus. now, you want me to present to you NT verses about the term/word "person"? what then when i manage to? at anyrate, am not throwing punches with you, der alter, but just solidifying my stand. anyways, here are the NT verses for the word "person":


Matthew 27:24
When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it.
(Whole Chapter: Matthew 27 In context: Matthew 27:23-25)

Mark 12:14
And when they were come, they say unto him, Master, we know that thou art true, and carest for no man: for thou regardest not the person of men, but teachest the way of God in truth: Is it lawful to give tribute to Caesar, or not?
(Whole Chapter: Mark 12 In context: Mark 12:13-15)

Luke 15:7
I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.
(Whole Chapter: Luke 15 In context: Luke 15:6-8)

Luke 20:21
And they asked him, saying, Master, we know that thou sayest and teachest rightly, neither acceptest thou the person of any, but teachest the way of God truly:
(Whole Chapter: Luke 20 In context: Luke 20:20-22)

Acts 10:34
Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
(Whole Chapter: Acts 10 In context: Acts 10:33-35)


MIND YOU, DER ALTER, those are just few of the many NT scriptural verses about the word "person" and there are more

on the basis of sound argument, you can never answer a question by answering with another question, hence, i ask you these again:


* the fact: the doctrine of trinity talks of the First, Second & Third Person,

(a) Did God ever claim in the New Testament that He is the first person of the trinity?

(b) Did Jesus ever claim in the New Testament that He is the second person of the trinity?

(c) Did the Holy Ghost ever make a statement to any of the ecclesiastical gentlemen/NEW TESTAMENT CHRISTIANS that He is the third person of the trinity?

(d) present biblical/HOLY SCRIPTURAL proof that trinity is indeed scriptural or a biblical/HOLY SCRIPTURAL proof stating that there is ONLY ONE GOD EXISTING IN THREE PERSONS.

 

[Der Alte]

4th,

"Gotcha" I think I see the problem somebody is here playing games. There is no gotcha about it, if you think there is you are in the wrong place. You must not be reading my posts. You keep going on and on about some doctrine, somewhere, that supposedly states something, "the doctrine of trinity talks of the First, Second & Third Person." If this so-called doctrine, you keep talking about, exists then let's see it right here on this forum, post it here and lets read exactly what it says. Now here is what I posted before.

Where? Which doctrine, where is is recorded? Can you produce any documentation that some Trinity doctrine, somewhere "talks of the First, Second, and Third person? If you find such a document that is where you should be asking your question. I haven't, and I don't know of anyone in this thread who has, used that particular terminology, i.e. first, second, and third.

And since you are the one who brought up the subject of "person" and are implying that since that terminology is not in the N.T. it is unscriptural, don't you think you need to establish if anyone is ever called a person? If, as you are implying, the lack of the word person in one instance means it is unscriptural then the lack in all instances should prove the same thing.

Did anyone in the entire O.T. and N.T. ever claim that they were a person? If not, then they are NOT persons, according to your logic.

I'm waiting for your straight to the point answers to my question about the term, "person."​

​

• Was Jesus a person?
• Was Peter a person?
• Was Paul a person?

Yes or no? No need to expound nor defend your answer at the moment.

All I want you to do is define your terms. How are you using the term, "person?" If I understand you correctly, someone is not a person unless they say they are, and you are implying that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not persons because they never say that they are.

So are any of the many, many individuls named in the N.T. persons? If none of the individuals mentioned in the N.T. are "persons" because they do not say they are, then we can move on.​

 

[4thwatcher]

der alter, i reiterate, on the basis of sound argument, you can never answer a question by answering with another question. we'll just discuss one linear topic at a time, dont be in a hurry to jump to another line of argument. you havent answered my questions to you yet. hence, i ask you these again:


* the fact: the doctrine of trinity talks of the First, Second & Third Person,

(a) Did God ever claim in the New Testament that He is the first person of the trinity?

(b) Did Jesus ever claim in the New Testament that He is the second person of the trinity?

(c) Did the Holy Ghost ever make a statement to any of the ecclesiastical gentlemen/NEW TESTAMENT CHRISTIANS that He is the third person of the trinity?

(d) present biblical/HOLY SCRIPTURAL proof that trinity is indeed scriptural or a biblical/HOLY SCRIPTURAL proof stating that there is ONLY ONE GOD EXISTING IN THREE PERSONS.


Unless you refuse to answer those questions, just let me know

 

[TOmNossor]

der alter, i reiterate, on the basis of sound argument, you can never answer a question by answering with another question. we'll just discuss one linear topic at a time, dont be in a hurry to jump to another line of argument. you havent answered my questions to you yet. hence, i ask you these again:


* the fact: the doctrine of trinity talks of the First, Second & Third Person,

(a) Did God ever claim in the New Testament that He is the first person of the trinity?

(b) Did Jesus ever claim in the New Testament that He is the second person of the trinity?

(c) Did the Holy Ghost ever make a statement to any of the ecclesiastical gentlemen/NEW TESTAMENT CHRISTIANS that He is the third person of the trinity?

(d) present biblical/HOLY SCRIPTURAL proof that trinity is indeed scriptural or a biblical/HOLY SCRIPTURAL proof stating that there is ONLY ONE GOD EXISTING IN THREE PERSONS.


Unless you refuse to answer those questions, just let me know

4thwatcher,



I will answer some of your questions so you can move on with what you have to say.

a)no

b)no

c)no

d)no PROOF exists in my opinion. Der Alter may disagree with this though.



As you move on you should be aware that the Augustinian Trinitarian structure held by most Christians does not embrace a 1st, 2nd, and 3rd person. Many Christians (although not Catholics) dogmatically embrace the term “co-equal” which would not allow the above rank to have any meaning. Even those who do not embrace the term “co-equal” would prolly balk at the ranking anyway.



I say that from the Bible alone we know that there is Heavenly Father. There is Jesus Christ. There is the Holy Spirit. They are one and they are distinct. Heavenly Father is God. From John 1 (and other places), I think we must recognize in a certain way Jesus is God (this is from the Bible alone, I as a LDS know that Jesus is fully God and eternal). Now how they are one and how they are three is not clear to me from the Bible alone.



You seem to be a non-LDS/Catholic/EO Christian and Der Alter is a non-LDS/Catholic/EO Christian. I believe neither of you can demand the other is wrong based purely on the Bible. The Bible is just not perfectly clear on the structure of God. Assuming Der Alter is a creedal Protestant (which is possible due to his penchants for the ECF) he could tell you that the Nicene Creed proves you are wrong.





Charity, TOm

 

[4thwatcher]

I will answer some of your questions so you can move on with what you have to say.

a)no

b)no

c)no

d)no PROOF exists in my opinion. Der Alter may disagree with this though.

I appreciate your response, Tom atleast, our point of discussion concerning the question i posted to trinity proponents are leading into the right tract. im just trying to establish here the SCRIPTURALNESS of the PERSONHOOD of the TRINITY. again, thanks Tom.

der alter, peace !

 

[Der Alte]

I appreciate your response, Tom atleast, our point of discussion concerning the question i posted to trinity proponents are leading into the right tract. im just trying to establish here the SCRIPTURALNESS of the PERSONHOOD of the TRINITY. again, thanks Tom.

der alter, peace !

What we have is a straw man argument. You have mentioned a doctrine which you either cannot or will not identify. This so-called "doctrine" supposedly makes certain statements about the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. When asked to produce this so-called "doctrine" you refuse and mention "basis of sound argument."

Sound argument requires defining terms and applying those terms consistently, which you have refused to do. As far as I know nobody in this forum has ever made the statement that any member of the Godhead was in any numerical "place." Your argument appears to hinge on the fact that neither the Father, Son, nor Holy Spirit ever identified themself as a person.

Your questions presume that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit cannot be "persons" because they never identify themselves as "persons." In order for this argument to be valid, the personhood of everyone in the N.T. must depend on individuals identifying themselves as persons. Did Peter ever call himself a person? Did Paul ever call himself a person? Did Paul ever call himself a person?

Before this discussion can proceed you must clarify your terms and produce evidence of the assertions you are making. Support your presupposition on the use of the term "person" in the N.T. And produce this so-called doctrine you keep referring to.

 

[4thwatcher]

Your questions presume that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit cannot be "persons" because they never identify themselves as "persons."

that's your own presumption, der alter. i have just presented you scriptural verses which provides reference to a "person" since you wanted me to provide it.

Before this discussion can proceed you must clarify your terms and produce evidence of the assertions you are making. Support your presupposition on the use of the term "person" in the N.T. And produce this so-called doctrine you keep referring to.

der alter, i need not to continue with the current point of discussion since tomnossor alredy have supplied me with the necessary answers i am waiting to hear from anybody in this thread i asked you simple questions, yet you evaded from responding correctly, and instead you tried answering me back with another question.

Assuming Der Alter is a creedal Protestant (which is possible due to his penchants for the ECF) he could tell you that the Nicene Creed proves you are wrong.

tom, just wondering, is the NICENE CREED the most authoritative in establishing the correct interpretation of the Diety of the Godhead? cheers!

 

[Peterson]

Hey 4thwatcher,
The Nicene Creed can be made to be understood in many ways. It is a self-contradictory document. It starts out by identifying thr Godhead closely to 1 Corinthians 8:6 (One God, the Father and Jesus Christ, his Son). It then states that the Father and Son are one substance (Modalism?). It further states that Christ sits on the right hand of the Father (this doesn't sound like coequality). This would indicate the supremacy of the Father. Where does the Holy Spirit sit as a separate entity?

If the Holy Spirit is the Lord and giver of life, as a separate entity, how does Christ's sacrifice figure in to this equation? What is the "Holy Christian and Apostolic Church" according to this document? What is one baptism, and how can one be sure of the right one, and who has the proper authority to administer it, as per this document? Finally, where is the Biblical substantiation for these statements, and where is the evidence that one must accept this document in order to be saved?

 

[Der Alte]

Hey 4thwatcher,
The Nicene Creed can be made to be understood in many ways. It is a self-contradictory document. [1] It starts out by identifying thr Godhead closely to 1 Corinthians 8:6 (One God, the Father and Jesus Christ, his Son). It then states that the Father and Son are one substance (Modalism?).[2] It further states that Christ sits on the right hand of the Father (this doesn't sound like coequality). [3]This would indicate the supremacy of the Father. Where does the Holy Spirit sit as a separate entity? [4]

If the Holy Spirit is the Lord and giver of life, as a separate entity, how does Christ's sacrifice figure in to this equation? [5] What is the "Holy Christian and Apostolic Church" according to this document? [6]What is one baptism, and how can one be sure of the right one, and who has the proper authority to administer it, as per this document? [7]Finally, where is the Biblical substantiation for these statements, and where is the evidence that one must accept this document in order to be saved?[8]

A typical unorthodox distortion of the subject. Answers keyed to the inserted numbers above.

[1] Laughable. Of course, anything can be made to say whatever one wants by twisting the words. Plenty of folks right here, including you, doing that with the Bible. Prove the document is self-contradictory.

[2] You evidently don't have a clue what "Modalism" is.

[3] Read Philippians 2, you might understand then.

[4] Irrelevant! Absence of evidence is NOT evidence of absence.

[5] Where does the Nicene creed say, "the Holy Spirit is the Lord and giver of life"? Read the Bible, that will answer this question.

[6] Read the Bible, it is not a building or a denomination.

[7] Irrelevant! Who or how doesn't matter since it is not salvivic anyway.

[8] If you were really interested in the scriptural support for this document you could easily find it. I think someone once posted the scriptural annotations right here on this forum. As with most people who spend their time blindly attacking the church, you dream up a lot of anti-church nonsense and then expect to be spoon fed the answers. If you really knew what you are talking about you would have anticipated the responses and be able to refute them.

I don't know anyone or anywhere that requires acceptance of the Nicaean creed for salvation. That is NOT the purpose of it, if you had bothered to study it you would know this. If you ever post anything factual, please let me know I would really like to see it.