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Doc T

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I posted this on another thread.

Doc: Who said that I concluded that the writing of Novatian to be anti-trinitarian? He is not anti-social trinitarian, like the LDS, but anti-trinitarian post-Nicean trinity. He says:
Chapter XXVII.213 Argument.-He Skilfully Replies to a Passage Which the Heretics Employed in Defence of Their Own Opinion.

But since they frequently urge upon us the passage where it is said, "I and the Father are one," in this also we shall overcome them with equal facility. For if, as the heretics think, Christ were the Father, He ought to have said, "I and the Father are one." But when He says I, and afterwards introduces the Father by saying, "I and the Father," He severs and distinguishes the peculiarity of His, that is, the Son's person, from the paternal authority, not only in respect of the sound of the name, but moreover in respect of the order of the distribution of power, since He might have said, "I the Father," if He had had it in mind that He Himself was the Father. And since He said "one" thing, let the heretics understand that He did not say "one "person. For one placed in the neuter, intimates the social concord, not the personal unity. He is said to be one neuter, not one masculine, because the expression is not referred to the number, but it is declared with reference to the association of another. Finally, He adds, and says, "We are," not "I am," so as to show, by the fact of His saying" I and the Father are," that they are two persons. Moreover, that He says one, has reference to the agreement, and to the identity of judgment, and to the loving association itself, as reasonably the Father and Son are one in agreement, in love, and in affection; and because He is of the Father, whatsoever He is, He is the Son; the distinction however remaining, that He is not the Father who is the Son, because He is not the Son who is the Father. For He would not have added "We are," if He had had it in mind that He, the only and sole Father, had become the Son. In fine, the Apostle Paul also apprehended this agreement of unity, with the distinction of persons notwithstanding: for in writing to the Corinthians he said, "I have planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase. Therefore neither is he that planteth anything, nor he that watereth, but God who gives the increase. Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one." And who does not perceive that Apollos is one person and Paul another, and that. Apollos and Paul are not one and the same person? Moreover, also, the offices mentioned of each one of them are different; for one is he who plants, and another he who waters. The Apostle Paul, however, put forward these two not as being one person, but as being" one; "so that although Apollos indeed is one, and Paul another, so far as respects the distinction of persons, yet as far as respects their agreement both are "one." For when two persons have one judgment, one truth, one faith, one and the same religion, one fear of God also, they are one even although they are two persons: they are the same, in that they have the same mind. Since those whom the consideration of person divides from one another, these same again are brought together as one by the consideration of religion. And although they are not actually the self-same people, yet in feeling the same, they are the same; and although they are two, are still one, as having an association in faith, even although they bear diversity in persons. Besides, when at these words of the Lord the Jewish ignorance had been aroused, so that hastily they ran to take up stones, and said, "For a good work we stone thee not, but for blasphemy; and because thou, being a man, makest thyself God," the Lord established the distinction, in giving them the principle on which He had either said that He was God, or wished it to be understood, and says, "Say ye of Him, whom the Father sanctified, and sent into this world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am. the Son of God? " Even here also He said that He had the Father. He is therefore the Son, not the Father: for He would have confessed that He was the Father had He considered Himself to be the Father; and He declares that He was sanctified by His Father. In receiving, then, sanctification from the Father, He is inferior to the Father. Now, consequently, He who is inferior to the Father, is not the Father, but the Son; for had He been the Father, He would have given, and not received, sanctification. Now, however, by declaring that He has received sanctification from the Father, by the very fact of proving Himself to be less than the Father, by receiving from Him sanctification, He has shown that He is the Son, and not the Father. Besides, He says that He is sent: so that by that obedience wherewith the Lord Christ came, being sent, He might be proved to be not the Father, but the Son, who assuredly would have sent had He been the Father; but being sent, He was not the Father, lest the Father should be proved, in being sent, to be subjected to another God. And still after this He added what might dissolve all ambiguity, and quench all the controversy of error: for He says, in the last portion of His discourse, "Ye say, Thou blasphemest, because I said I am the Son of God." Therefore if He plainly testifies that He is the Son of God, and not the Father, it is an instance of great temerity and excessive madness to stir up a controversy of divinity and religion, contrary to the testimony of the Lord Christ Himself, and to say that Christ Jesus is the Father, when it is observed that He has proved Himself to be, not the Father, but the Son.
Now that does not sound like the kind of trinity that I hear around these parts. They are one in unity not in persons. That is LDS doctrine if I have ever heard it.

Could some of you here tell me how this is similar and how this is different to your understanding of the Trinity.

Looking forward to your response.

Doc
 

Doc T

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Isaiah 53 said:
This is the definition of the Trinity I believe is accurate:

http://www.carm.org/doctrine/whatisthetrinity.htm

PEACE IN CHRIST!!

Doc: Interesting. There is very little there that I would disagree with. Perhaps later I will point them out and say why.

In the mean time, Isaiah 53, in your mind what is the difference between what you posted from CARM and how you preceive the LDS belief to be.
 
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The trinity is not scriptural, and all the passages cited by CARM are taken out of context. Jesus never taught that God is a trinity, the apostles never taight it, nor did Paul teach it, or anywhere acknowledge such a confusing definition of God. His statement in 1 Corinthians 8:6 is a complete statement. It is the sum total of who God is. In all of his opening salutations, Paul never acknowledged a trinity. He acknowledged Father and Son only.

The Roman church itself, admits that the doctrine is not found in scripture, and was not assimilated into the church prior to the end of the fourth century (New Catholic Encyclopedia). All trinitarian churches state that belief in the trinity is mandatory for salvation. Rome claims that the trinity operates exclusively through the Vatican. Give me chapter and verse on that one.

Those of you who profess "Sola Scriptura" have got a huge problem defending the trinity concept. God is no mystery. He reveals himself very clearly in the Bible.
 
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Ben_Hur

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A. God is one and the Father (easily verifiable in scripture)
B. Jesus is God (easily verifiable in scripture)
C. Holy Spirit is God (easily verifiable in scripture)
D. Commandment #1, "I am God, you shall have NO OTHER Gods before me" (easily verifiable in scripture).
E. Plurality of God at creation (Let US make man in OUR OWN image).

If God meant want he said in D, then A, B, and C must describe the same God, and those are manifested in one God as indicated in Genesis and the statement E.

If God is three separate persons, then worshiping B or C is blasphemy to A.

If God is three separate persons, then we are polytheists and pagans in the eyes of Jews.

You can't have it both ways. Either there is only ONE God or there is NOT.
 
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Isaiah 53

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Doc T said:
Doc: Interesting. There is very little there that I would disagree with. Perhaps later I will point them out and say why.

In the mean time, Isaiah 53, in your mind what is the difference between what you posted from CARM and how you preceive the LDS belief to be.
From what I have learned the LDS chruch believes that the Godhead is divided into three seperate Gods.

God the Father created God the Son (Jesus) along with everything else; i.e Satan.

The Holy Spirit is a invisible force that comes from the Father and Son.

I believe that God the Father/Son/Holy Spirit are one; yet three distinct beings. Seperate in office but the same in essence and divinity.

Like Ben Hur stated; There is but ONE God~God says so. Jesus is God~God says so. The Holy Spirit is God~God says so.

There cannot be three Gods yet we are told there is but one God. Thus, the Trinity.

PEACE IN CHRIST!!
 
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TScott

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Peterson said:
...The Roman church itself, admits that the doctrine is not found in scripture, and was not assimilated into the church prior to the end of the fourth century (New Catholic Encyclopedia)...

Here is an excerpt from the Catholic Encyclopedia:

For this reason it (the holy revelation of the Blessed Trinity) has no place in the Liberal Protestantism of today. The writers of this school contend that the doctrine of the Trinity, as professed by the Church, is not contained in the New Testament, but that it was first formulated in the second century and received final approbation in the fourth, as the result of the Arian and Macedonian controversies. In view of this assertion it is necessary to consider in some detail the evidence afforded by Holy Scripture.
They then open a complete section showing scriptural evidence for the doctrine.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm

 
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Der Alte

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Peterson said:
The trinity is not scriptural, and all the passages cited by CARM are taken out of context.

Now all you have to do is prove your assertion. Anybody can say "out-of-context."

Jesus never taught that God is a trinity, the apostles never taight it, nor did Paul teach it, or anywhere acknowledge such a confusing definition of God. His statement in 1 Corinthians 8:6 is a complete statement. It is the sum total of who God is. In all of his opening salutations, Paul never acknowledged a trinity. He acknowledged Father and Son only.

First, the oneness doctrine did NOT exist until a revival in California in 1913. Jesus implied the Trinity in Matt 28:19. And there is the appearance of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit all three distinct, from the others, at Jesus' baptism.

Here is one salutation and one benediction, and one other verse where Paul mentions all three the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit.

Rom 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:
7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Co 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.

Rom 15:30 Now I beseech you, brethren, for the Lord Jesus Christ's sake, and for the love of the Spirit, that ye strive together with me in your prayers to God for me;​

The Roman church itself, admits that the doctrine is not found in scripture, and was not assimilated into the church prior to the end of the fourth century (New Catholic Encyclopedia).

This is a false statement. the Catholic church admits no such thing. There is NO such statement in the Catholic Encyclopedia.

All trinitarian churches state that belief in the trinity is mandatory for salvation. Rome claims that the trinity operates exclusively through the Vatican. Give me chapter and verse on that one.

Oneness churches teach that unless you are baptized in the name of Jesus only, you are not saved. I would like to see some scripture on that.

Do you have any evidence that ALL Trinitarian churches, "state that belief in the trinity is mandatory for salvation?" Since I am not RC I'm not too much interested in what they teach.
 
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Rejoice

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John 8
54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God

Jesus identified the Father as the God that Israel worshipped.


God identified himself as "I AM."

Exodus 3
14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.



Jesus made it clear that he also was God.

John 8
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.



It is clear from the first words of the Gospel of John.

John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.



Both the Son and the Holy Spirit proceed from the Father.

John 15
26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:


There is only one God.

Deuteronomy 6
4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
 
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Der Alte

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TScott said:
Here is an excerpt from the Catholic Encyclopedia:


They then open a complete section showing scriptural evidence for the doctrine.

TS the article, as you have quoted it, could be misunderstood. I am posting the entire paragraph. It may be noted that the Cath. Ency. does NOT say that the doctrine of the Trinity was "not assimilated into the church prior to the end of the fourth century" but that liberal Protestant Theology makes that claim.

I. THE DOGMA OF THE TRINITY

It is manifest that a dogma so mysterious presupposes a Divine revelation. When the fact of revelation, understood in its full sense as the speech of God to man, is no longer admitted, the rejection of the doctrine follows as a necessary consequence. For this reason, it has no place in the Liberal Protestantism of today. The writers of this school contend that the doctrine of the Trinity, as professed by the Church, is not contained in the New Testament, but that it was first formulated in the second century and received final approbation in the fourth, as the result of the Arian and Macedonian controversies. In view of this assertion it is necessary to consider in some detail the evidence afforded by Holy Scripture. Attempts have been made recently to apply the more extreme theories of comparative religion to the doctrine of the Trinity, and to account for it by an imaginary law of nature compelling men to group the objects of their worship in threes. It seems needless to give more than a reference to these extravagant views, which serious thinkers of every school reject as destitute of foundation.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm
 
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Der Alte

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Doc T said:
I posted this on another thread.

Doc: Who said that I concluded that the writing of Novatian to be anti-trinitarian? He is not anti-social trinitarian, like the LDS, but anti-trinitarian post-Nicean trinity. He says:

Now that does not sound like the kind of trinity that I hear around these parts. They are one in unity not in persons. That is LDS doctrine if I have ever heard it.

Could some of you here tell me how this is similar and how this is different to your understanding of the Trinity.

Looking forward to your response.

Doc

It appears you do not understand the doctrine of the Trinity. There is one being God, whith three disctinct personas, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. No orthodox Trinitarian church or school teaches that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit comprise one person.

Here is the Nicene creeed, please show us where Novatian and the creed differ.

We believe (I believe) in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, and born of the Father before all ages. (God of God) light of light, true God of true God. Begotten not made, consubstantial to the Father, by whom all things were made. Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven. And was incarnate of the Holy Ghost and of the Virgin Mary and was made man; was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, suffered and was buried; and the third day rose again according to the Scriptures. And ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of the Father, and shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead, of whose Kingdom there shall be no end. And (I believe) in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father (and the Son), who together with the Father and the Son is to be adored and glorified, who spoke by the Prophets. And one holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. We confess (I confess) one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for (I look for) the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen."​
 
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New Catholic Encyclopedia, Trinty, Holy (p.299)

The formulation "one God in three persons" was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimulated into Christian life and its professing faith, prior to the end of the fourth century.

There seems to be a misconception concerning who the "Comforter" in John 14:16, especially as it is referred to here as "He." There is the argument that in the Greeek idiom, a noun requires a masculine pronoun. Hence the use of "he." Nevertheless, by looking at v.16, the Comforter is called the "Spirit of truth'" and is further clarified in verse 18 as Christ himself. Also in verse 20 and 23. Also, by checking 2 Corinthians 1:1-7, it can be seen here that the comforters are the Father and Jesus Christ.
The Holy Spirit is not a third person, nor is it an impersonal force. The Holy Spirit is the mind of the Father given us through Jesus Christ after his bodily departure from earth. See 1 Peter 1:3-4. Why is it so difficult to believe what the Bible clearly says in 1 Timothy 2:5. Jesus Christ is the only mediator between God the Father and man. Only, means only!
 
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Der Alte

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Peterson said:
New Catholic Encyclopedia, Trinty, Holy (p.299)

The formulation "one God in three persons" was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimulated into Christian life and its professing faith, prior to the end of the fourth century.

There seems to be a misconception concerning who the "Comforter" in John 14:16, especially as it is referred to here as "He." There is the argument that in the Greeek idiom, a noun requires a masculine pronoun. Hence the use of "he." Nevertheless, by looking at v.16, the Comforter is called the "Spirit of truth'" and is further clarified in verse 18 as Christ himself. Also in verse 20 and 23. Also, by checking 2 Corinthians 1:1-7, it can be seen here that the comforters are the Father and Jesus Christ.
The Holy Spirit is not a third person, nor is it an impersonal force. The Holy Spirit is the mind of the Father given us through Jesus Christ after his bodily departure from earth. See 1 Peter 1:3-4. Why is it so difficult to believe what the Bible clearly says in 1 Timothy 2:5. Jesus Christ is the only mediator between God the Father and man. Only, means only!
Well the Catholic Encyclopedia that I can check differs with what you have posted, which I am unable to verify.

Why do Trinitarians refer to the Holy Ghost/Spirit as a person distinct from the Father and the Son? Because the Holy Spirit does all these individual, personal, actions, distinct from the Father and the Son!

The Holy Spirit independently; comforts, reveals, bears witness, helps, has a mind, loves, leads, makes intercession, speaks, anoints, gives utterance (causes to speak), can be tempted, bids (tells, instructs); approves, suffers (permits) and forbids actions; searches hearts and consciences, can be insulted, can be lied to, can be grieved, can be quenched, bears witness; can be blasphemed and spoken against, distinct from the son; teaches, thinks, witnesses, sanctifies, sends and is sent, and ordains to office.

These are all characteristics of a person, not an impersonal force, energy, power, etc.

Ro 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Ro 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities:

Ro 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit,

Ro 15:30 Now I beseech you, brethren, for the Lord Jesus Christ's sake, and for the love of the Spirit,

Mt 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit

Mt 10:20 the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

Lu 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted,

Ac 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Ac 5:9 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord?

Ac 8:29 Then the Spirit said unto Philip,

Ac 10:19 While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him,

Ac 11:12 And the Spirit bade (told, instructed) me go with them

Ac 16:7 but the Spirit suffered them not.

Ro 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God,

Ro 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: the Spirit itself maketh intercession

1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things,

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly

Heb 10:29 and hath done despite (insult) unto the Spirit of grace?

Act 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

Eph 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God,

1Th 5:19 Quench not the Spirit.

1Jo 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness,

1 Jon 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Re 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches;

Re 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit,

Mt 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

Mt 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost,

Mr 13:11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

Lu 2:26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost,

Lu 12:10 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost

Lu 12:12 For the Holy Ghost shall teach you

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance

Ac 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

Ac 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;

Ac 16:6 Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia,

Ac 20:23 Save that the Holy Ghost witnesseth in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions abide me.

Ac 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers,

Ac 21:11 And when he was come unto us, he took Paul's girdle, and bound his own hands and feet, and said, Thus saith the Holy Ghost,

Ro 15:16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.

1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Heb 9:8 The Holy Ghost this signifying,

Re 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say,

And although I exercised due care and diligence, I'm not sure that is all of the relevant scriptures.
 
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Der Alte

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Peterson said:
New Catholic Encyclopedia, Trinty, Holy (p.299)

The formulation "one God in three persons" was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimulated into Christian life and its professing faith, prior to the end of the fourth century.

Altho I don't have access to the New Catholic Encyclopedia, and I doubt that you do either, I was able to find some information about the article that you selectively quoted. What you quoted shown in blue. When the context is shown this article does not say what you claim it does.

1. "Question of Continuity and Elemental Trinitarianism: From what has been seen thus far, the impression could arise that the Trinitarian dogma is in the last analysis a late 4th-century invention. In a sense, this is true; but it implies an extremely strict interpretation of the key words Trinitarian and dogma. Triadic Consciousness in the Primitive Revelation. The formulation "one God in three Persons" was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective; among the 2d-century Apologists, little more than a focusing of the problem as that of plurality within the unique Godhead. ... From the vocabulary and grammar of the Greek original, the intention of the hagiographer to communicate singleness of essence in three distinct Persons was easily derived. ... If it is clear on one side that the dogma of the Trinity in the stricter sense of the word was a late arrival, product of 3 centuries' reflection and debate, it is just as clear on the opposite side that confession of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit-and hence an elemental Trinitarianism-went back to the period of Christian origins. (New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1965, Trinity, p299-300)​

And if your source is what I think it is we should soon see some more misquotes from these Theologians

Fortman, Edmund: The Triune God

Kelly, J.N.D.: Early Christian Doctrines

Hastings, James, Encyclopædia of Religion and Ethics

Eliade, Mircea, The Encyclopedia of Religion​
 
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Der Alter said:
It appears you do not understand the doctrine of the Trinity. There is one being God, whith three disctinct personas, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. No orthodox Trinitarian church or school teaches that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit comprise one person.

This is directly from the website the same place you copied from beforeand I believe it flat states what the original doctrine was, I highlighted the part about 3Gods being persons
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm
I left the link so any one else could go and read the entire section for themselves, THIS IS FROM THE CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA

THE DOGMA OF THE TRINITY
The Trinity is the term employed to signify the central doctrine of the Christian religion -- the truth that in the unity of the Godhead there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, these Three Persons being truly distinct one from another. Thus, in the words of the Athanasian Creed: "the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God." In this Trinity of Persons the Son is begotten of the Father by an eternal generation, and the Holy Spirit proceeds by an eternal procession from the Father and the Son. Yet, notwithstanding this difference as to origin, the Persons are co-eternal and co-equal: all alike are uncreated and omnipotent. This, the Church teaches, is the revelation regarding God's nature which Jesus Christ, the Son of God, came upon earth to deliver to the world: and which she proposes to man as the foundation of her whole dogmatic system.
This shows 3 seperate persons acting as a group to form one Godhead not 1 GOD
I also enjoyed the part where they say NOTWITHSTANDING because it points to the fact that there is a problem with this Idea.
 
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True Believer

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All you have to do to read the New Catholic Encyclopedia is to type it in on your search engine and go to advent, It is all online (the new addition) If you want info from older addition you can find it at some of the big city libraries.


NOTE ; as with any new additions there are changes from past editions so some times quotes will read differently from the New Edition depending on which volume is being quoted
 
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Der Alte

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True Believer said:
This is directly from the website the same place you copied from beforeand I believe it flat states what the original doctrine was, I highlighted the part about 3Gods being persons

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm

I left the link so any one else could go and read the entire section for themselves, THIS IS FROM THE CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA

THE DOGMA OF THE TRINITY
The Trinity is the term employed to signify the central doctrine of the Christian religion -- the truth that in the unity of the Godhead there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, these Three Persons being truly distinct one from another. Thus, in the words of the Athanasian Creed: "the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God." In this Trinity of Persons the Son is begotten of the Father by an eternal generation, and the Holy Spirit proceeds by an eternal procession from the Father and the Son. Yet, notwithstanding this difference as to origin, the Persons are co-eternal and co-equal: all alike are uncreated and omnipotent. This, the Church teaches, is the revelation regarding God's nature which Jesus Christ, the Son of God, came upon earth to deliver to the world: and which she proposes to man as the foundation of her whole dogmatic system.

This shows 3 seperate persons acting as a group to form one Godhead not 1 GOD I also enjoyed the part where they say NOTWITHSTANDING because it points to the fact that there is a problem with this Idea.

I agree with this definition but I don't think this is quite how you worded it before. And maybe you can help me out here. Where exactly does this article say, "3 seperate persons acting as a group" and where does it say, "there is a problem with this Idea?"

And before you get all carried away, trying to make this article says what you want it to, anyone can make almost anything say what they want it to say by misquoting and quoting out-of-context. So just how ignorant do you think, or want us to think, the editors of the Cath. Ency. were?
 
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Der Alte

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True Believer said:
All you have to do to read the New Catholic Encyclopedia is to type it in on your search engine and go to advent, It is all online (the new addition) If you want info from older addition you can find it at some of the big city libraries.


NOTE ; as with any new additions there are changes from past editions so some times quotes will read differently from the New Edition depending on which volume is being quoted

The New Catholic Encyclopedia is still in copyright and thus is not available online. The Catholic Encyclopedia that is online at Newadvent is the 1912 edition.

Many anti-Trinitarian groups, such as JW, misquote and selectively quote from the Catholic Encyclopedia and other Trinitarian literature, trying to prove that Trinitarian sources support their views. For anyone who wants to use try to second hand quotes from their denominational literature to prove that the articles support your views. No it don't. Substantially the entire Trinity and Holy Spirit articles from the NCE are available at this link. So if you are going to quote it, get it right.

And just FYI I prefer to discuss resources which whoever is posting has read for themself, not second or third hand quotes from their denominational literature.


http://www.bible.ca/trinity/trinity-Catholic.htm#cath1975
 
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TScott

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Peterson said:
New Catholic Encyclopedia, Trinty, Holy (p.299)

The formulation "one God in three persons" was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimulated into Christian life and its professing faith, prior to the end of the fourth century.
This seems to be at odds with the online encyclopedia that der alter and I cited, however I believe that this would be a more accurate statement. The facts show that the dogma of the Holy Trinity was not universally accepted until the fourth century. The Arian controversy is historical fact.
 
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blixation

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CHAPTER 2; OF GOD AND OF THE HOLY TRINITY

Paragraph 1. The Lord our God is but one only living and true God;1 whose subsistence is in and of Himself,2 infinite in being and perfection; whose essence cannot be comprehended by any but Himself;3 a most pure spirit,4 invisible, without body, parts, or passions, who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto;5 who is immutable,6 immense,7 eternal,8 incomprehensible, almighty,9 every way infinite, most holy,10 most wise, most free, most absolute; working all things according to the counsel of His own immutable and most righteous will,11 for His own glory;12 most loving, gracious, merciful, long-suffering, abundant in goodness and truth, forgiving iniquity, transgression, and sin; the rewarder of them that diligently seek Him,13 and withal most just and terrible in His judgments,14 hating all sin,15 and who will by no means clear the guilty.16

1 1 Cor. 8:4,6; Deut. 6:4
2 Jer. 10:10; Isa. 48:12
3 Exod. 3:14
4 John 4:24
5 1 Tim. 1:17; Deut. 4:15,16
6 Mal. 3:6
7 1 Kings 8:27; Jer. 23:23
8 Ps. 90:2
9 Gen. 17:1
10 Isa. 6:3
11 Ps. 115:3; Isa. 46:10
12 Prov. 16:4; Rom. 11:36
13 Exod. 34:6,7; Heb. 11:6
14 Neh. 9:32,33
15 Ps. 5:5,6
16 Exod. 34:7; Nahum 1:2,3

Paragraph 2. God, having all life,17 glory,18 goodness,19 blessedness, in and of Himself, is alone in and unto Himself all-sufficient, not standing in need of any creature which He hath made, nor deriving any glory from them,20 but only manifesting His own glory in, by, unto, and upon them; He is the alone fountain of all being, of whom, through whom, and to whom are all things,21 and He hath most sovereign dominion over all creatures, to do by them, for them, or upon them, whatsoever Himself pleases;22 in His sight all things are open and manifest,23 His knowledge is infinite, infallible, and independent upon the creature, so as nothing is to Him contingent or uncertain;24 He is most holy in all His counsels, in all His works,25 and in all His commands; to Him is due from angels and men, whatsoever worship,26 service, or obedience, as creatures they owe unto the Creator, and whatever He is further pleased to require of them.

17 John 5:26
18 Ps. 148:13
19 Ps. 119:68
20 Job 22:2,3
21 Rom. 11:34-36
22 Dan. 4:25,34,35
23 Heb. 4:13
24 Ezek. 11:5; Acts 15:18
25 Ps. 145:17
26 Rev. 5:12-14

Paragraph 3. In this divine and infinite Being there are three subsistences, the Father, the Word or Son, and Holy Spirit,27 of one substance, power, and eternity, each having the whole divine essence, yet the essence undivided:28 the Father is of none, neither begotten nor proceeding; the Son is eternally begotten of the Father;29 the Holy Spirit proceeding from the Father and the Son;30 all infinite, without beginning, therefore but one God, who is not to be divided in nature and being, but distinguished by several peculiar relative properties and personal relations; which doctrine of the Trinity is the foundation of all our communion with God, and comfortable dependence on Him.

27 1 John 5:7; Matt. 28:19; 2 Cor. 13:14
28 Exod. 3:14; John 14:11; I Cor. 8:6
29 John 1:14,18
30 John 15:26; Gal. 4:6
 
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