Trinity --- true or false?

[Tkjjc]

it was an angel. Nebbucannessar said that he looked like a son of the gods, not a son of god. Nebucannesar was a polythiest, therefore when he used the word elohim he used it in its plural form for elohiym is a noun that can be either plural or singular.

Actually it is 'elahh here. And the correct translation of that verse of Daniel 3:25 is this.

Dan 3:25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt, and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

Of course this is what he would say, since he had never seen Jesus prior to this.

 

[2ducklow]

Why would the Bible say that Jesus was the firstborn of creation, but not mean it?

Jesus is the firstborn of the new creation of god as listed in jer. 31.22. romans chapter 8 refers to the new creation simply as creation. so there is biblical precedence for callihg the new creation simply creation. Jesus is the first one born of god's new creation which as new male seed that he used to fertilize marys egg tkjjc]with. He is the firstborn of all new creations because we are new creations in Christ Jesus. So my interpretation is what the bible means.

elohyim is a plural and a singular noun. just like fish in english is a singular and a plural noun. the bible says god created heaven and earth not the gods created heaven and earth.

Genesis 1:27 And God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.


god created man, not the gods created man. elohyim is the word used here and the meaning is singular not plural. why? because it says "created he him "not "created they him. which debunks your theory that a singular form of elohyim doesn't exist till gen 14.

Interesting to note, that the king of Sodom(burning) tempted Abram by asking for the people and letting Abram have the riches and the King of Salem(peace) just blessed him, and ate the same supper that was eaten at the last one.....bread and wine. See this?

I have no idea what you are getting at.

 

[Tkjjc]

I have no idea what you are getting at.

As I can tell by your posts.

 

[HisWordIsMySword]

By denying that Jesus was not before the world began is denying Jesus is the Word of God. And scripture proves that Jesus is the Word of God. If the Word had not existed before creation, creation would not have become into existance. For though the Word and by the Word, all of creation came into existance.

 

[Tkjjc]

By denying that Jesus was not before the world began is denying Jesus is the Word of God. And scripture proves that Jesus is the Word of God. If the Word had not existed before creation, creation would not have become into existance. For though the Word and by the Word, all of creation came into existance.

 

[2ducklow]

Wrong. it denies that Jesus is literally the word of God. I believe Jesus is the word of god figuratively. john 1 is highly fiugrative language. There is nothing in the bible that states that john 1.14 can only be inteprreted literally. we have to decide which interpretation makes the most sense literal and figurative, most people accept without thinking a literal interpretation of john 1.14. But to say that what god says did a presto changeo act into flesh and the same time not changing is so utterly absurd and ridiculous that one must of neccessity look for a figurative interpretation of john 1.14. which interpretation is that Jesus is the fullfillment of gods word or plan for man. Or that Jesus spoke the words of god so much so and so much better than any other human that he is figuratively the word of god. tell me where does it say "you are not saved unless you interpret john 1.14 literally?" that is what most christians teach.
so clap all you want but i got the truth and the truth makes sense. god don't speak a lot of nosense. he don't say anything that doesn't make sense.

Please note that when i say something doesn't make sense, i explain how it doesn't make sense and what doesn't make sense. I don't just say "everythying you say doesn't make sense." then explain nothing.

 

[2ducklow]

By denying that Jesus was not before the world began is denying Jesus is the Word of God. And scripture proves that Jesus is the Word of God. If the Word had not existed before creation, creation would not have become into existance. For though the Word and by the Word, all of creation came into existance.

j0ohn 1.14 is figurative not literal so believeing jesus began his existance at his birth does not deny that jesus is the word figuratively. no verse says "unless you interpret john 1.14 literally , you are not a christian," as most suppose. figurative interpretation, that jesus is the fullfillment of gods word or plan for man makes sense. saying what g od says changed into a clump of flesh'l which is a literal interpretation, makes no sense.

 

[2ducklow]

Actually it is 'elahh here. And the correct translation of that verse of Daniel 3:25 is this.

Dan 3:25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt, and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

Of course this is what he would say, since he had never seen Jesus prior to this.

Nah, here is the correct translation. and for the reasons i gave previously.

Da 3:25He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the aspect of the fourth is like a son of the gods.ASV


elohyim is a noun that has the same form for singular or plural . Like our word fish has the same form for both singular and plural. the word in dan. 3.25 translated god in your version and gods in the asv version is elohyim. Since dNebuchanessar was a poly thiest, he would more likely say "son of the gods." it was a common phraseology amongs polythyiest of the day. Alexander the great was said to be "a son of the gods."

In 331 B.C., the Egyptian oracle at Siwa confirmed that Alexander was the son of the Zeus. Actually, the oracle confirmed that he was the son of Ammon, but Ammon is the Egyptian equivalent of Zeus in nearly as clear a way

http://www.interesting.com/stories/alexander/#zeus

 

[2ducklow]

As I can tell by your posts.

I was refering to this one statement of yours which my comment followed , not the entirety of your statements. I understood what you were saying perfectly except for this. I was being kind in saying that I didn't understand it.. Ill be more direct so that you understand me, what you said makes no sense please clairify what you were trying to say.

Interesting to note, that the king of Sodom(burning) tempted Abram by asking for the people and letting Abram have the riches and the King of Salem(peace) just blessed him, and ate the same supper that was eaten at the last one.....bread and wine. See this?

NO i don't see this, it makes no sense whatsoever. try again.

 

[johnd]

If these things are true about Newton, then he did not consider the context of the whole of scripture, and did not arrive at the correct conclusion which an infernal false religion did.

John 1:1 clearly states that God was with God and that God the Word was he who became flesh (John 1:14).

This means there had to be more than one person in the Godhead.

Even brilliant men like Newton are but men and fallible. Solomon was declared by the word of God to have been the wisest man, by the way.

And there is every indication he died a pagan. He led Israel into idolatry and were it not for David's sake, God would have divided the kingdom in two during Solomon's lifetime because of what he did.

My point?

Do not listen to mere me. Listen to God. Believe his word.

 

[2ducklow]

If these things are true about Newton, then he did not consider the context of the whole of scripture, and did not arrive at the correct conclusion which an infernal false religion did.

John 1:1 clearly states that God was with God and that God the Word was he who became flesh (John 1:14).

This means there had to be more than one person in the Godhead.

Even brilliant men like Newton are but men and fallible. Solomon was declared by the word of God to have been the wisest man, by the way.

And there is every indication he died a pagan. He led Israel into idolatry and were it not for David's sake, God would have divided the kingdom in two during Solomon's lifetime because of what he did.

My point?

Do not listen to mere me. Listen to God. Believe his word.

And why must john 1.14 be interpreted literally? I can interpet it figuratively in ways that line up with other scriptures. My interprretation, a figurative one, is that the word became flesh in that Jesus is the fulfillment of God's word or plan for us. Also Jesus spoke what his father gave him to speak, thus Jesus was speaking the word of god like no other person ever has. My figurative interpretation results in using logos or word like it iis used in the rest of the bible, namely what god says, not some being that is a seperate, and at the same time the same, being as god, which is of course extremly illogical.
You base the absoluteness of your interpretation on the false premise that god only speaks in literal terms. He does not. Except for trinitarian theology, it would be plain to see the figurative nature of the first chapter of John.

do you beieve God's word is a light unto our feet literally?

Psalms 119:105 NUN. Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

If it's literal then it means we got little bitty lamps on our toes lighting our path. So clearly , in other scriptures, God speakss of his word in figurative terms, yet you condem anyone by implication, who does not accept a literal interpretation of john 1.14. Even you don't take it literally for you take flesh to mean Jesus not some clump of flesh. flesh is a figure of speech representing Jesus in john 1.14.

 

[Ran77]

The notion that no man has seen God is very interesting and I had never thought about it being applicable to the subject of the Trinity. Thanks for starting the thread.

 

[HisWordIsMySword]

Wrong. it denies that Jesus is literally the word of God. I believe Jesus is the word of god figuratively. john 1 is highly fiugrative language.

Col. 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.


2 Tim. 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,


You can choose to say I am wrong all you want, yet regardless, your argument is not with me, but the Word of God.


Proverbs 8:1 Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice?
2 She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths.
3 She crieth at the gates, at the entry of the city, at the coming in at the doors.
4 Unto you, O men, I call; and my voice is to the sons of man.
5 O ye simple, understand wisdom: and, ye fools, be ye of an understanding heart.
6 Hear; for I will speak of excellent things; and the opening of my lips shall be right things.
7 For my mouth shall speak truth; and wickedness is an abomination to my lips.
8 All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing froward or perverse in them.
9 They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge.
10 Receive my instruction, and not silver; and knowledge rather than choice gold.
11 For wisdom is better than rubies; and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it.
12 I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions.
13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.
14 Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom: I am understanding; I have strength.
15 By me kings reign, and princes decree justice.
16 By me princes rule, and nobles, even all the judges of the earth.
17 I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.
18 Riches and honour are with me; yea, durable riches and righteousness.
19 My fruit is better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and my revenue than choice silver.
20 I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment:
21 That I may cause those that love me to inherit substance; and I will fill their treasures.
22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;
31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.
32 Now therefore hearken unto me, O ye children: for blessed are they that keep my ways.
33 Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not.
34 Blessed is the man that heareth me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors.
35 For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the LORD.
36 But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.

 

[2ducklow]

Col. 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.


2 Tim. 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,


You can choose to say I am wrong all you want, yet regardless, your argument is not with me, but the Word of God.


Proverbs 8:1 Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice?
2 She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths.
3 She crieth at the gates, at the entry of the city, at the coming in at the doors.
4 Unto you, O men, I call; and my voice is to the sons of man.
5 O ye simple, understand wisdom: and, ye fools, be ye of an understanding heart.
6 Hear; for I will speak of excellent things; and the opening of my lips shall be right things.
7 For my mouth shall speak truth; and wickedness is an abomination to my lips.
8 All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing froward or perverse in them.
9 They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge.
10 Receive my instruction, and not silver; and knowledge rather than choice gold.
11 For wisdom is better than rubies; and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it.
12 I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions.
13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.
14 Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom: I am understanding; I have strength.
15 By me kings reign, and princes decree justice.
16 By me princes rule, and nobles, even all the judges of the earth.
17 I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.
18 Riches and honour are with me; yea, durable riches and righteousness.
19 My fruit is better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and my revenue than choice silver.
20 I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment:
21 That I may cause those that love me to inherit substance; and I will fill their treasures.
22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;
31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.
32 Now therefore hearken unto me, O ye children: for blessed are they that keep my ways.
33 Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not.
34 Blessed is the man that heareth me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors.
35 For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the LORD.
36 But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.

And this is your proof that John 1.14 shouldn't be intepreted figuratively? I can certainly see why you chose not to explain how.

 

[johnd]

If these things are true about Newton, then he did not consider the context of the whole of scripture, and did not arrive at the correct conclusion which an infernal false religion did.

John 1:1 clearly states that God was with God and that God the Word was he who became flesh (John 1:14).

This means there had to be more than one person in the Godhead.

Even brilliant men like Newton are but men and fallible. Solomon was declared by the word of God to have been the wisest man, by the way.

And there is every indication he died a pagan. He led Israel into idolatry and were it not for David's sake, God would have divided the kingdom in two during Solomon's lifetime because of what he did.

My point?

Do not listen to mere men. Listen to God. Believe his word.

And why must john 1.14 be interpreted literally?

Because there is no indication whatsoever to interpret the verse figuratively. John 1:1 CLEARLY indicates ho logos is a person as much as God is. "The word was with God and the word was God."

If the word is to be taken allegorically then so is God in the passage.

Obviously it is not to be taken figuratively and therefore the word in verse 14 refers to the person in verse 1.

do you beieve God's word is a light unto our feet literally?

I'll do you one better.

Hebrews 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

Is that to be taken literally? No. But the existence of God is not to be called into question by such a figure of speech. He is no less God by the use of this figure of speech. And the final death knell in your line of reasoning is the verse in question:

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The word was God.
The word was WITH God.

You are simply refusing to believe the obvious points being made by the text.

Such closed minded interpolation leads to every assorted misinterpretation. If you want to pick and choose what you believe the truth to be then you are elevating yourself or your beliefs above God. In that case you might as well pick a more self-serving faith than Christianity to use as a mask. Because all who disbelieve the God of the Bible are going to hell.

 

[hybrid]

If a religion does not follow the doctrine of Christ, that is in the bible. It is a false religion. Any religion. I want to warn people not to be snared, and research all the doctrine of your church and cross reference it to the bible. Than do you see the truth. You see the snare.

i did.

trinity is an accurate model of god and reality.
God is all and in all.

Eph 4:6
one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. NIV

Col 3:10-11
Here there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all. NIV

1 Cor 15:28
When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all. NIV

in him, we moved and have our being.
he is the light that shines on all men


.

 

[StudentoftheWord]

Because all who disbelieve the God of the Bible are going to hell.

Which? Which interpretation of the "God of the Bible", yours or his? Where does it say all who disbelieve the God of the Bible are going to hell? Can you provide a passage and verse. Thanks

 

[StudentoftheWord]

The notion that no man has seen God is very interesting and I had never thought about it being applicable to the subject of the Trinity. Thanks for starting the thread.

Also taken out of context.

When John wrote his thoughts, he wrote.

1 John 4:12
No one has seen God at any time.

When John wrote the words of Jesus he wrote:

John 6:45-47
It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me. No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life.

If those who believe Jesus is not God, and only the Father is God, then John was lying in 1 John. Or Jesus was lying in John. The only way to solve the dilemma is in the Beginning was Jesus Christ, and the Jesus Christ was with God and the Jesus Christ was God.

 

[johnd]

Which? Which interpretation of the "God of the Bible", yours or his? Where does it say all who disbelieve the God of the Bible are going to hell? Can you provide a passage and verse. Thanks

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

2 Corinthians 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

You have to believe in the genuine Jesus; God the Word become flesh died on the cross rose the third day. Yeah that one. The one the Bible authenticates.

John 5:39 You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

John 8:58 “I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

Jesus = the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

John 8:19 Then they asked him, “Where is your father?”
“You do not know me or my Father,” Jesus replied. “If you knew me, you would know my Father also.”

John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

Whoever
believes in him
is not condemned,
but
whoever
does not believe
stands condemned already
because
he has not believed
in the name
of God’s one and only Son.

Revelation 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

 

[StudentoftheWord]

So you didn't answer the question conveniently. Which interpretation of the "God of the Bible", yours or his? The rest of your Scriptures do not have application until you answer this one.