Trinity --- true or false?

[just human]

but a quick look at the first chapter of John shows us a man who had a previous existance. John says the world came into existance through this man.
The man was the Word which became flesh. It speaks of his glory which could only belong to God's only begotten Son. John says he existed before me (John) If you feel Jesus did not have an existance prior to his being human then we have to agree to disagree.


OK?

just human

 

[just human]

Luke 1:30-37relates how Jeus was to be concieved without intercourse.
an interesting thing in these verses is the Angel telling Mary that Elizabeth was already 6 months pregnant with John and yet John says Jesus existed before him. this would also point to a prior existance of Jesus.
I don't know, I mean a person is going to believe what they want to believe. All I can do is show what I see which makes me believe the way I do.
just human

 

[2ducklow]

but a quick look at the first chapter of John shows us a man who had a previous existance. John says the world came into existance through this man.

John 1:3 All things were made through him; and without him was not anything made that hath been made.ASV

1 Corinthians 8:6 yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we unto him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we through him.ASV

it would have to mean through the agency of Jesus, which is another way of saying by Jesus as the KJV has it. It certainly doesn’t always mean, and primarily doesn’t mean, through the agency of.
according to the ASV translation all things are made through Jesus not by Jesus. I believe through is the better t ranslation for the greek word is dia which means through. Also I believe col. 1.16 explains exactly what is meant by ‘through Jesus”


Colossians 1:16 for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him;ASV

The verse says that all things were created in, through and unto Jesus, which is another way of saying that Jesus is the reason for everything. If the meaning of through in col. 1.16 is ‘through the agency of” or in other words “by” then the last part of that verse should say “unto himself”. For if Jesus created everything he created it unto himself.. If God created everything then the reading should be as it is “unto him.” God created everything unto his son and through his son, and in his son, meaning everything god created was because of and for Jesus.


The doctrine that all things were created by Jesus, which is the KJV translation rests on very shaky ground also, for the primary meaning of dia is through not by.

The man was the Word which became flesh. It speaks of his glory which could only belong to God's only begotten Son.

There is no reason one absolutely has to take “the word was made flesh” literally. I believe the correct interpretation is that god’s word took on it’s greatest fulfillment with the birth of Jesus, which is a figurative interpretation. Figurative makes logical sense, a literal interpretation makes no logical sense for it has what God says changing into flesh.

John says he existed before me (John) If you feel Jesus did not have an existance prior to his being human then we have to agree to disagree.


OK?

just human

John doesn’t say Jesus existed before John, that is your interpretation. It says;

John 1:15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.KJV

That Jesus was before John can be taken a number of different ways, that Jesus is preferred before John, is before John in importance or that Jesus existed before John. It is hardly definitive proof of Jesus existing before he existed. What I believe the true meaning is is this. Jesus was prophesised of in the OT before John. Jesus was spoken of in the OT before John came along. Thus Jesus was before John in that sense. Not that Jesus existed in some form with God, then changed into flesh at the same time not changing into flesh but also remaining the word.
There is no verse in the bible that says that Jesus existed before he was born. The nonsensical doctrine that Jesus preexisted, which means he existed before he existed, is based on interpretations of scriptures and is not scripture. So without direct scripture stating that Jesus existed before he was born, to intepret scripture to mean that Jesus existed before he existed is unjustified. A interpretation of those scriptures commonly interpreted to mean that Jesus existed before he existed should be one that makes sense. We have no authority to make nonsense and indeed aree prohibited by scripture from interpreting gods word in a nonsensical manner.
neh. 8.8.

 

[2ducklow]

Luke 1:30-37relates how Jeus was to be concieved without intercourse.
an interesting thing in these verses is the Angel telling Mary that Elizabeth was already 6 months pregnant with John and yet John says Jesus existed before him. this would also point to a prior existance of Jesus.
I don't know, I mean a person is going to believe what they want to believe. All I can do is show what I see which makes me believe the way I do.
just human

I never said or implied that god had intercourse with Mary. In fact i stated flat out that He did not. God created male seed and used it to fertilize Mary's egg thus causing Mary to conceive. a female human egg will only accept human male seed to conceive.
Not everyone is going to believe what they want to believe. Many people put aside their prejudices and accept an interpretation when god, common sense, hermenutics, logic etc
show them that they are wrong even at the expense of their pet doctrines. Most don't true. I use to believe in eternal security, but when i was shown from thescriptures it was wrong i accepted it even though it is more comfortable believing you will go to heaven no matter what you do.

And I have shown you how i find what you have shown me does not proove what you say it does., That's all I can do.

 

[HisWordIsMySword]

It is more like Jesus was Spirit then Flesh and then once again Spirit accourding to the scriptures

You are correct in this assumption.

John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

John 1 In the beginning was the Word. Before anything, even the creation of the heavens and the earth, in the beginning was the Word. God begat his Son, the Word, the quickening spirit a life unto himself. Though of the Father, not the Father, but the Son.

John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.


Jesus was the firstborn of all creatures. Col. 1:14-20

2 Tim. 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

 

[gort]

Tts 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Tts 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.


Tts 2:15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

Jesus is God.

Any questions?

 

[2ducklow]

Jesus is God.

Any questions?

Titus 2:13 looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;ASV

John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
John 17:22 And the glory which thou hast given me I have given unto them; that they may be one, even as we are one;

It is the glory of the great God that titus 2.13 is speaking of . that glory of god's own self was given to Jesus, thus jesus has the glory of God's own self, and we have that hope of someday also having the glory of God's own self, (because Jesus gave it to us.) For one day we shall be like Christ and see him as he is , when we do then titus 2.13 will be fullfilled and Jesus and his body all will have the glory of God's own self. It's what we all should be hopeing and looking for per titus 2.13. the wording "great god and our savior Jesus Christ." reflects this closeness and identity of Jesus with God, not that he is god. If I say ,the great president and our vice president." does that mean George Bush is Dick Chenny? No of course not. so titus 2.13 is far from bein g proof that Jesus is God.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Jesus is a man, and he mediates between us and god, therefore he is not God, but a mediator between God and man (first adam)

 

[gort]

Titus 2:13 looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;ASV

John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
John 17:22 And the glory which thou hast given me I have given unto them; that they may be one, even as we are one;

It is the glory of the great God that titus 2.13 is speaking of . that glory of god's own self was given to Jesus, thus jesus has the glory of God's own self, and we have that hope of someday also having the glory of God's own self, (because Jesus gave it to us.) For one day we shall be like Christ and see him as he is , when we do then titus 2.13 will be fullfilled and Jesus and his body all will have the glory of God's own self. It's what we all should be hopeing and looking for per titus 2.13. the wording "great god and our savior Jesus Christ." reflects this closeness and identity of Jesus with God, not that he is god. If I say ,the great president and our vice president." does that mean George Bush is Dick Chenny? No of course not. so titus 2.13 is far from bein g proof that Jesus is God.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Jesus is a man, and he mediates between us and god, therefore he is not God, but a mediator between God and man (first adam)

Paul defines Jesus as God. God and Jesus are inclusive here. This is carried on in v.14:

Tts 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

...Paul speaks solely of Christ.

Any analogies of the president and vice president don't work.

 

[2ducklow]

Paul defines Jesus as God. God and Jesus are inclusive here. This is carried on in v.14:

Tts 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

There is nothing in here defining Jesus as god. that is your interpretation. How you get it out of that verse is very unclear to me.

...Paul speaks solely of Christ.

Paul frequently spoke of God and christ, in fact the two times paul identifys god the father as the only true god he lists Jsus with God as lord, not god.

1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Any analogies of the president and vice president don't work.

the great god and our savior Jesus
the great girl and our leader Bush
came to the carnival.

President Bush isn't a girl he don't even look remotely like a girl.

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they should know thee the only true God, and him whom thou didst send, even Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 1:2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

So titus 2.13 and 1 cor. 8.6 and lets throw in john 17.3 and eph 1.2 as well..

the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
one God, the Father and one Lord, Jesus Christ,
hee the only true God, and him whom thou didst send, even Jesus Christ.
God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

So clearly biblical precedent is on the side of two beings, god the father and Jesus christ, not one being.

 

[Tkjjc]

There is no verse in the bible that says that Jesus existed before he was born. The nonsensical doctrine that Jesus preexisted, which means he existed before he existed, is based on interpretations of scriptures and is not scripture.

John 8
48The Jews answered and said to Him, "Do we not say rightly that You are a Samaritan and have a demon?"
49Jesus answered, "I do not have a demon; but I honor My Father, and you dishonor Me.
50"But I do not seek My glory; there is One who seeks and judges.
51"Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will never see death."
52The Jews said to Him, "Now we know that You have a demon Abraham died, and the prophets also; and You say, 'If anyone keeps My word, he will never taste of death.'
53"Surely You are not greater than our father Abraham, who died? The prophets died too; whom do You make Yourself out to be?"
54Jesus answered, "If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing; it is My Father who glorifies Me, of whom you say, 'He is our God';
55and you have not come to know Him, but I know Him; and if I say that I do not know Him, I will be a liar like you, but I do know Him and keep His word.
56"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad."
57So the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?"
58Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."
59Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple.

 

[2ducklow]

John 8
48The Jews answered and said to Him, "Do we not say rightly that You are a Samaritan and have a demon?"
49Jesus answered, "I do not have a demon; but I honor My Father, and you dishonor Me.
50"But I do not seek My glory; there is One who seeks and judges.
51"Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will never see death."
52The Jews said to Him, "Now we know that You have a demon Abraham died, and the prophets also; and You say, 'If anyone keeps My word, he will never taste of death.'
53"Surely You are not greater than our father Abraham, who died? The prophets died too; whom do You make Yourself out to be?"
54Jesus answered, "If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing; it is My Father who glorifies Me, of whom you say, 'He is our God';
55and you have not come to know Him, but I know Him; and if I say that I do not know Him, I will be a liar like you, but I do know Him and keep His word.
56"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad."
57So the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?"
58Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."
59Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple.

you have shown no verse that says Jesus existed before he was born. you interrpet john 8.58 that way but it doesn't say that. I am in greek is not god's name anyway. every ot scripture quoted in the NT where gods name is in the ot verse the nt verse uses the word kurios not ego emi (I am in greek). born isn't a word in john 8.58. the verse means that Jesus was the one prophesi8sed of even before abraham. "I am he" is what he is saying. there is no proof that ego emi is the name of god and in fact ego emi occurs 100 times or more in the nt and cannot possibly refer to god in 99.9 percent of those verses, this verse cannot mean gods name because there is no precedent of an ot scripture using gods name being translated as ego emi in the nt. so you are way out on a limb that is cracking on this one.


Acts 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

Psalms 110:1 <<A Psalm of David.>> The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.


LORD is jehovah or yhwh and the greek word here is kurios not ego emi. ego emi is never used to translate the OT word YHWH in the NT.
also abraham saw Jesus day by faith, not by actual eyesight. abraham had b een dead quite some time before jesus day came along.

 

[just human]

John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

2ducklow you use this scripture yet you deny Jesus existed prior to his being born as a human on earth. I don't understand how you can use this verse to argue Jesus is not God, which I agree with yet the scriptures shows Jesus existed as spirit prior to the creation of the World

 

[2ducklow]

2ducklow you use this scripture yet you deny Jesus existed prior to his being born as a human on earth. I don't understand how you can use this verse to argue Jesus is not God, which I agree with yet the scriptures shows Jesus existed as spirit prior to the creation of the World

\
One clue that this cannot possibly mean that Jesus existed before he was born is that if Jesus lost the glory of God's own self when he came to earth as an enfant as trinitarians assert, then the verse should say 'the glory I had with the before I was born." there are about 4000 years in between when the world system started after adam sinned and when christ was born. If Christ lost the glory of God's own self before the world system began, then christ was without the glory of God's own self for some 4000 years before he was born. so john 17.5 cannot possibly refer to christ existing before he was born.


the greek word translated world here is kosmos which means world system. The world system began after Adam sinned. Adam had the glory of God's own self before the world system began and lost it. Jesus restored it to adam here in this verse in seed form. adam, that would be all of us, will not fully have the glory of God's own self as Jesus had, untli we become like him, which none of us has acheived as yet. If you look in verse 5 you find Jesus asking for that glory to be restored,

John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

then in verse 22 we find that Jesus gives us the glory he asked for in verse 5 to us.

John 17:22 And the glory which thou hast given me I have given unto them; that they may be one, even as we are one;

Jesus was speaking as a stand in for the first adam, us, just as Jesus was a stand in for us on the cross, and just as Jesus was a stand in for us at his baptism. Jesus had no need to die on the cross nor to be baptisecd for the remission of sins, except as our replacement.

 

[just human]

I am sorry but you lost me right off the bat.
Jesus is speaking to his Father. He knows he is about to fullfill the prophecy and be put to death. He is asking for his position alongside his Father back along with the glory that was his when he was in heaven with his Father as far back in time as prior to the world being.
Whether literal or figurativly speaking of the World would make no difference. It still speaks to a time period before Jesus was born as human on Earth


just human

 

[2ducklow]

I am sorry but you lost me right off the bat.
Jesus is speaking to his Father.

and how does the fact that Jesus is speaking to his Father negate the interrpetation that Jesus is speaking to his father as a stand in for the first adam? Do you understand the concept of a stand in? I'm not being rude but you said you were lost in what I said without giveing even one example of anything I said that you didn't understand. so i have no idea what you don't understand about what I said. Really I don't think i said anything that is too difficult to understand. Not talking about b elieveing what I said but understanding what I said. Really anyone can understand the concept of a stand in.and that is the crux of what I said, that JEsus was speaking as a stand in for the first adam (US>)

He knows he is about to fullfill the prophecy and be put to death.

What prophecy. how do you know he is thinking about the prophecy of his death, and even if he is how does that stop him from asking for the glory of gods own self to be restored to the first adam or to his body? In fact , because Jesus is facing death, it would be totally appropriate for him to ask for the glory of God's own self to be restored to the first adam or his body so that his body could continue his work after his death.

He is asking for his position alongside his Father back along with the glory that was his when he was in heaven with his Father as far back in time as prior to the world being.

He is not asking for his posisiton. he is asking for the glory of god's own self. Jesus already had the glory of god's own self when he asked for it. that Jesus had the glory of god's own self is why he could heal the sick raise the dead and do the miracles that he did. If jesus did not have the glory of god's own self prior to his asking for it at the end of his ministry, then he could have done none of the miracles he did because he himself said "I can of mine own self do nothing.

Whether literal or figurativly speaking of the World would make no difference. It still speaks to a time period before Jesus was born as human on Earth


just human

sure it makes a difference for the reason i stated in my previous post. If jesus lost the glory of gods own self before the world was created or before the world system began it would mean that Jesus did not have the g lory of god's own sellf for some 4000 years or more. do you understand this? you said you were lost so presumably you didn't understand anything I said.


another way of looking at it, and perhaps a more correct way, is that jesus was asking for the glory of god's own self to be restored to his body (us, we are the body of christ.) thus in verse 22 he afirms that his body has been given the glory of god's own self by Jesus.

I don't know how to explain it any clearer. Sorry I lost you. perhaps if you care to ask specific questions about what i said I can clear it up. but just the blanket statement that everything i said you are lost on is kinda broad.

 

[just human]

I am sorry but none of what you are saying makes any sense to me.
Jesus is not asking for God's glory, he is asking for the glory which was already his back again.

What prophecy. how do you know he is thinking about the prophecy of his death

First off in verse 1 Jesus says the hour has come. Which hour? the hour appointed for his death.
secondly in verse 5 he says "glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was".
This seems pretty clear to me, he is asking to get back what he used to have, his position alongside his Father and the Glory which was his back when he was alongside his Father.

the use of the word glorify throughout these verses is dealing with reputation. Jesus glorified his Fathers name telling all the Good things he had done and was going to do.
Jesus was going to be put to death as a criminal. he wanted his good name back.


to be honest I think you are way out in left field with this
just human

 

[2ducklow]

I am sorry but none of what you are saying makes any sense to me.
Jesus is not asking for God's glory, he is asking for the glory which was already his back again.

YOu mean you cannot understand the concept of Jesus speaking to god as a stand in for the adamic race?

2nd point. It doesnt say it was already his glory, that is your interpretation. lIt says "the glory which I had with thee before the world was." My interpretation is that he is speaking as a stand in for adam who lost the glory of God when he sinned before the world system. My interpretation is suported by verse 22, that states that the glory that was given to Jesus He has given to us."
My interpretation is supported by the fact that if verse 5 is talking about the glory Jesus had with the father before his birth then the verse should read "the glory I had with thee before I was born." which thing it does not.

First off in verse 1 Jesus says the hour has come. Which hour? the hour appointed for his death.

Ok well I already answered this. That Jesus was about to die is good reason for him to ask for the glory of god's own self for us believers in Jesus so that we can continue his work.

secondly in verse 5 he says "glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was".

No it doesn't.

John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.ASV

Nothing about alongside you. Jesus is speaking to god the father as a stand in for the first adam in verse 5 . That is my interpretation. your interpetation is tht the glory Jesus is asking for is posistion with god. posistion is not glory. so your interpretation fails on that point alone.

This seems pretty clear to me, he is asking to get back what he used to have, his position alongside his Father and the Glory which was his back when he was alongside his Father.

He is asking for the glory of god's own self, he is not asking for posisition. posisition is not glory of God's own self.

the use of the word glorify throughout these verses is dealing with reputation. Jesus glorified his Fathers name telling all the Good things he had done and was going to do.
Jesus was going to be put to death as a criminal. he wanted his good name back.

Jesus asking for the glory of God's own self is not to increase his reputation with the world. Jesus having the glory of God's own self makes the world hate jesus not increase his glory. Us christians having the glory of God's own self makes us hated by the world. It doesn't give us a good reputation with the world. Jesus has a good reputation with everyone in heaven, and with everyone who believes in him. so your idea simply doesn't hold water.

to be honest I think you are way out in left field with this
just human

Well I'm not. Just because you have never heard this interpretation or can't make any sense out of what I'm saying doesn't mean it is out in left field. I believe it is in the center of God's ball park. There is nothing nonsensical about saying that someone is speaking as a stand in for someone else. Jesus often spoke as a stand in for God. Prophets of God often spoke as stand ins for god, "thus saith the lord, "I will destroy this temple in 3 days." not the prophet but god will destroy the temple in 3 days, but the propet said it.

 

[Tkjjc]

Prophets of God often spoke as stand ins for god, "thus saith the lord, "I will destroy this temple in 3 days." not the prophet but god will destroy the temple in 3 days, but the propet said it.

Well, this is getting interesting. Are you saying that Jesus was no more than just a prophet? If this is the case, than debating what your interpretation of doctrine is, is a waste of time, as that is what alot of false religions believe as well. I have a hard time putting Jesus on the same exact God Status with the Father, but in no way shape or form do I take away Jesus's own glory that He is indeed the Son of God. So this begs to question..if you believe that Eternal Jesus didn't exist until Mary.

Who was it that was walking in the garden of God? Think God has legs?
Who was it that blessed Abram, and brought out bread and wine?
Who was it that was contending with kings and interpreted Daniels vision?
Who was it that was in the furnace with shad, mesh, abind?
Who was it that wrestled with Jacob?
Who was it that Lucifer wanted to ascend past in heaven? The Father? Hmm
Who was it that we are made in that image? As He is made in His Fathers?
Does Jesus and His Father transend time?
If no man has ever seen God the Father at any time, what was the OT following? Cloud, Fire, Glory in the Day of Attonement, Etc?
Is it so hard to believe that Jesus could actually be the very first ever that God created? A Son that is in charge of all other creation and creating it?
What is the meaning behind the Lamb, High Priest and King of the New Covenant?

See, I used to feel the way you did at one time, until the fullness of the Bible was opened up to me. Jesus has always been here, and until the restitution of heaven is complete, we won't be seeing Him any time soon.

 

[2ducklow]

Well, this is getting interesting. Are you saying that Jesus was no more than just a prophet?

I believe Jesus is the new man, the second adam, the son of god (Literally). I believe he is man indwelt by God not both man and god. He is the savior of all mankind, he is at the right hand of tthe only true God, God the Father. He is the head of the church, we are his body. He is a prophet, the bible says so "a prophet hath not honor in his own home.". I wouldn't call that "no more than just a prophet.

If this is the case, than debating what your interpretation of doctrine is, is a waste of time, as that is what alot of false religions believe as well. I have a hard time putting Jesus on the same exact God Status with the Father, but in no way shape or form do I take away Jesus's own glory that He is indeed the Son of God.

I believe Jesus is the son of god, I believe God the Father begat Jesus and Mary conceived Jesus. thus Mary is his mother and God is his father.

So this begs to question..if you believe that Eternal Jesus didn't exist until Mary.

Who was it that was walking in the garden of God? Think God has legs?

figure of speech. God often speaks of himself in personified terms, such as having arms legs etc. The bible also says that God is a man of war, but he isn't literally a man of war, just a figure of speech, a personification so that we can understand him

Who was it that blessed Abram, and brought out bread and wine?
Who was it that was contending with kings and interpreted Daniels vision?
Who was it that was in the furnace with shad, mesh, abind?

it was an angel. Nebbucannessar said that he looked like a son of the gods, not a son of god. Nebucannesar was a polythiest, therefore when he used the word elohim he used it in its plural form for elohiym is a noun that can be either plural or singular.

Who was it that wrestled with Jacob?

theophanic manifestation of God. Just as angels sometimes manifest as human beings not that they are human beings.

Who was it that Lucifer wanted to ascend past in heaven? The Father? Hmm

well yea.

Who was it that we are made in that image? As He is made in His Fathers?

I don't understand what you are saying here.

Does Jesus and His Father transend time?

Do you mean that they can go back and forth in time? if so, I see no scripture saying whether they can or can't so any answer anyone would offer would be pure speculation

If no man has ever seen God the Father at any time, what was the OT following? Cloud, Fire, Glory in the Day of Attonement, Etc?

I don't know what you mean.

Is it so hard to believe that Jesus could actually be the very first ever that God created? A Son that is in charge of all other creation and creating it?

Yes because the bible says he is the first born of creation firstborn doesn't mean first one created. and yes to the second question because the bible says God created heaven and earth, not his son. the bible says all things were created unto him (Jesus) not unto himself, therefore

Colossians 1:16 for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him;ASV

all things were created by God unto Jesus. also all things can't literally have been created in him or through him. the meaning is that Jesus is the reason for all creation. Again the fact that God created all things because of Jesus certainly makes him more than just a prophet.

What is the meaning behind the Lamb, High Priest and King of the New Covenant?

See, I used to feel the way you did at one time, until the fullness of the Bible was opened up to me. Jesus has always been here, and until the restitution of heaven is complete, we won't be seeing Him any time soon.

 

[Tkjjc]

Yes because the bible says he is the first born of creation firstborn doesn't mean first one created. and yes to the second question because the bible says God created heaven and earth, not his son.

Why would the Bible say that Jesus was the firstborn of creation, but not mean it?

And God 'elohiym (plural) created the heavens and the earth. It did not say 'el or Jehovah. This also is a major difference. Throughout the entirety of creation it is always the plural form of God that created. We don't see the singular form until Gen 14:18 When Christ himself blesses Abram. Most High God is then used.

Interesting to note, that the king of Sodom(burning) tempted Abram by asking for the people and letting Abram have the riches and the King of Salem(peace) just blessed him, and ate the same supper that was eaten at the last one.....bread and wine. See this?