Trinity --- true or false?

[StudentoftheWord]

I have no denomination. AND my doctrine is the Word of God.

Not only is that unproven, that conclusion is arrogant. You are just reciting presuppositions of doctrine, but never proving it or answering C.O.Ioves's questions. Therefore C.O.Ioves's statement remains true, it does NOT address anything he posted. Come one HisWordIsMySword, if It (the Word) is, then use it!

 

[C.O.Ioves]

[SIZE=-1]Jesus was begotten of the Father and was given life unto himself, seperate of the Father. John 5:26..[/SIZE]

Does not preclude Jesus from being God!

[SIZE=-1]Many attempt to defend the trinity doctrine, but they choose to ignore much of scripture by doing so..[/SIZE]

I think I posted about 80 passages of scripture. How many of those did you deliberately ignore?

[SIZE=-1]I can post one scripture, and there is much more that debunks the trinity doctrine, but because not one person has be able to make an argument that can disprove this one scripture, I have no need to post more.[/SIZE]

That is part of your problem. You have your handful of out-of-context proof texts, you totally ignore my posts and think your 1-2 verses settle the issue. You have still not addressed the scripture that clearly identified YHWH's forerunner prophesied by Isaiah

[SIZE=-1]God is not a God of confusion.. [/SIZE]

Irrelevant, does not address anything.

[SIZE=-1]If God and Jesus are one in same, why would God go to the trouble of saying he begat his Son, when it was really himself?

This is confusion. And it is contrary to the Word of God. God would not say he begat his Son if it was not so. [/SIZE]

According to Genesis everything begets after its own kind. What "kind" is God?

[SIZE=-1]Jesus is of God, but is not God the Father. Yet, should we call the Son God? [/SIZE]

Why shouldn't we call Jesus, God, the father did? And he did NOT qualify it in any way.

[SIZE=-1]Certainly. The Father himself refers to the Son in Hebrews 1 as God, who are we not to do the same. The Son is the expressed image. His will is to do that of the Father. Jesus is the perfect will of the Father. He does only the will of his Father.[/SIZE]

Exactly who are we to not call Jesus God? The rest does not preclude Jesus from being God.

[SIZE=-1]God the Father can have no association with sin. It is for this reason he begat his Son. [SIZE=+1][Not supported by scripture!][/SIZE] And the Son was given the full athority of the Godhead, having the Holy Spirit without measure.[SIZE=+1][Not supported by scripture!][/SIZE] He was begotten of the Father, and by the will of the Father through the unction of the Holy Spirit, all of creation came into being by the Son and through the Son.[/SIZE]

None of this precludes Jesus from being God.

 

[Ave Maria]

The doctrine of the trinity as expressed by many "orthodox" Christians is wrong. The Trinity consists of three separate and distinct individuals, not one God plus three persons who are all one.

 

[HisWordIsMySword]

So what is your understanding of this scripture? Do you believe it is saying here, that even though it says the Father gave the Son life unto himself, that he really didn't and they are the same spirit, even though scripture disagrees with you?



Quote:
Originally Posted by HisWordIsMySword
[SIZE=-1]Many attempt to defend the trinity doctrine, but they choose to ignore much of scripture by doing so..[/SIZE]

I think I posted about 80 passages of scripture. How many of those did you deliberately ignore?


You post much, but yet you don't really understand that which you post. You attempt to use it to discredit my stand, yet it does not discredit it at all, but reinforces it because the Word of God does not contradict itself, but supports itself.



Quote:


That is part of your problem. You have your handful of out-of-context proof texts, you totally ignore my posts and think your 1-2 verses settle the issue


I am waiting for you to prove how the trinity doctrine is not confusion. Your comment above is just a way to avoid or not promote a defense.



Quote:
Originally Posted by HisWordIsMySword
[SIZE=-1]God is not a God of confusion.. [/SIZE]

Irrelevant, does not address anything.


This one scripture alone, without the use of other scriptural support bebunks the trinity doctrine.



Quote:
Originally Posted by HisWordIsMySword
[SIZE=-1]If God and Jesus are one in same, why would God go to the trouble of saying he begat his Son, when it was really himself?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]This is confusion. And it is contrary to the Word of God. God would not say he begat his Son if it was not so. [/SIZE]

According to Genesis everything begets after its own kind. What "kind" is God?


So then all who are saved would be gods as well?



Quote:
Originally Posted by HisWordIsMySword
[SIZE=-1]Jesus is of God, but is not God the Father. Yet, should we call the Son God? [/SIZE]

Why shouldn't we call Jesus, God, the father did? And he did NOT qualify it in any way.


Quote:
Originally Posted by HisWordIsMySword
[SIZE=-1]Certainly. The Father himself refers to the Son in Hebrews 1 as God, who are we not to do the same. The Son is the expressed image. His will is to do that of the Father. Jesus is the perfect will of the Father. He does only the will of his Father.[/SIZE]

Exactly who are we to not call Jesus God? The rest does not preclude Jesus from being God.


You will find not one place I have not called Jesus God. For the Holy Spirit of the Father works through the Son without measure and no man cometh unto the Father, but through the Son. So when we speak to the Son, we are speaking to the Father.







When the Son was on the cross and became our sin, the Father removed his spirit from the Son. That is why the Son said, "Father, why hast thou forsaken me."

The Holy Spirit of God can not have association with sin. And proof of this is when a man is born again. Unless the man is made clean first and made Holy by the blood of the lamb, the Holy Spirit of God can not enter a man.

For what would happen if new wine in put into an old wine sack? It would rupture the sack. New wine must be put into new wine sacks.

 

[just human]

According to Genesis everything begets after its own kind. What "kind" is God?

Exactly the point!
God is not a kind!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
God is a title, the same as King, Lord, President, Governor, Queen, etc.
Is the child of a King always a King?
Is the child of a Queen always a Queen?
What then is a Prince?
What then is a Princess?
How about a President, will his child be president?
I know ,we have Bush and Bush but that is a fluke not a sure thing.
The Bible calls Angels gods also Satan is called god and what about the scriptures that call a mans belly his God or Money God.
God is a positon of power over another. Jehovah is God Almighty because there is No One more powerful than he is!
Yes Jesus is a God, because he has power over all things EXCEPT Jehovah, Jesus is in subjection to his Father so he can not be God Almighty, the Only True God ( or Supreme God)
If one recognizes this fact all things in the Bible are then clear and understandable
Jehovah is a Spirit being and everyone must worship him in spirit and truth!!!
just human

 

[C.O.Ioves]

[SIZE=-1]Exactly the point!
God is not a kind!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!![/SIZE]

You seem to have deluded yourself into thinking that semantical subtergfuge somehow refutes my point.

According to YHWH's unbreakable decree when a man begets an offspring it is a man, not a cow, a cat, etc. Likewise cow begets cow, cat begets cat, etc., etc.

When YHWH begets an offspring, using whatever word you choose, kind, genus, etc. the offspring of YHWH is what man, cow, cat, what exactly? Can God violate his own decree and beget a son that is completely other than himself?

[SIZE=-1]God is a title, the same as King, Lord, President, Governor, Queen, etc.
Is the child of a King always a King?
Is the child of a Queen always a Queen?
What then is a Prince?
What then is a Princess?[/SIZE]

While "God" can be used as a title, I was not using it as such. Since you want to play semantical games, I will use YHWH. As I said YHWH called the Son "God." Unlike all your examples YHWH did not limit that in any way.

For example, you claim that satan is called the God of this world. First, there is NO verse which identifies satan as the god of this world. Without bothering to actually look up the verse I think you are referring to a passage which says, IIRC "the god of this world has blinded them." It does not specify who or what. And as you correctly pointed out men have many things they treat like their god, including the bellies.

And in all you word games you forget that the Word of God says that ALL the gods of this world are nothing

1Co 8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.

Jer 2:11 Hath a nation changed their gods, which are yet no gods? but my people have changed their glory for that which doth not profit.

1Ch 16:26 For the all the gods of the people are idols: but the LORD made the heavens.

Ps 96:5 For all the gods of the nations are idols: but the LORD made the heavens.​

[SIZE=-1]How about a President, will his child be president?
I know ,we have Bush and Bush but that is a fluke not a sure thing. The Bible calls Angels gods also Satan is called god and what about the scriptures that call a mans belly his God or Money God.[/size]

Always limited in some way. When YHWH addresses the "only begotten Theos" as God he does NOT limit it in any way.

[SIZE=-1]God is a positon of power over another. [size=+1][Your interpretation, NOT supported by scripture. God is not limited by your personal interpretation!][/size] Jehovah is God Almighty because there is No One more powerful than he is!.[/size]

John said that Jesus is YHWH. Over 40 passages of scripture apply YHWH to Jesus. Scripture which OBTW you have totally ignored while you allude to your 2-3 out-of-context proof texts.

[SIZE=-1]Yes Jesus is a God, because he has power over all things EXCEPT Jehovah, Jesus is in subjection to his Father so he can not be God Almighty, the Only True God ( or Supreme God).[/size]

See above reply.

[SIZE=-1]Exactly If one recognizes this fact all things in the Bible are then clear and understandable
Jehovah is a Spirit being and everyone must worship him in spirit and truth!!!
just human).[/size]

If one recognizes Just human's handful of out-of-context proof texts and ignores all the scripture which refute his private interpretation and accept all his assumptions and presuppositions then one can also be a faithful and discreet slave of the watchtower.

God is NOT "a" spirit, as if he were one of some group called "spirits." God IS spirit and I worship him in spirit and in truth as he has reveled himself in history, Father Son, and Holy Spirit, one YHWH.

 

[plmarquette]

how come no one is talking about Fig Newton ... only Isaac ...

 

[just human]

and if a man begets a daughter what is she? is she still really a man or is she human, homosapien,
once again if your belly can be God and money can be God and angels are called Gods and Moses was called a god to pharoah. Then it should be obvious that God is not a type of being, in fact it can be something alive or dead even

 

[just human]

YHWH always refers to Jehovah ( english version) also called the Father in NT
I don't care what you try to make fit your theology.
Jesus and YHWH are two completely seperate being! They are of joint purpose because Jesus does n't do anything except what the Father YHWH, Jehovah, Allows.
He can't He said so. Jesus said So !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Are you calling him a liar?

John 4:22-24 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, because salvation originates with the Jews. Nevertheless, the hour is coming and it is now, when the true worshippers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for, indeed, the Father is looking for suchlike ones to worship him.God is a Spirit and those worshipping him must worship him in spirit and truth.
What does this say as to what the Father, God is?
He is a Spirit.
We have Spirit kind Human kind and animal kind These are the kinds of living things we have. Not God kind.
No such a thing.

Satan is the God of this system of things Revelation speaks of him walking about seeking to devore someone.
He is not in union or purpose with Jehovah he is an adversary
God is simply a title given to a being or thing which has power over another.

free your mind the rest will follow!!!
ALL Heavenly creatures are Spirit beings now we can then break it down into positions angel archangel cherubs serephs God son of God

 

[2ducklow]

The doctrine of the trinity as expressed by many "orthodox" Christians is wrong. The Trinity consists of three separate and distinct individuals, not one God plus three persons who are all one.

So who is the trinity? if the trinity is the one true god, then your statment means that the one true god consists of 3 individuals, which would mean one individual consists of 3 individuals. Which of course is nonsensical. If the trinity isn't the one true god, then what is it? A god club consisting of 3 members?

 

[2ducklow]

YHWH always refers to Jehovah ( english version) also called the Father in NT
I don't care what you try to make fit your theology.
Jesus and YHWH are two completely seperate being! They are of joint purpose because Jesus does n't do anything except what the Father YHWH, Jehovah, Allows.
He can't He said so. Jesus said So !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Are you calling him a liar?

John 4:22-24 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, because salvation originates with the Jews. Nevertheless, the hour is coming and it is now, when the true worshippers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for, indeed, the Father is looking for suchlike ones to worship him.God is a Spirit and those worshipping him must worship him in spirit and truth.
What does this say as to what the Father, God is?
He is a Spirit.
We have Spirit kind Human kind and animal kind These are the kinds of living things we have. Not God kind.
No such a thing.

Satan is the God of this system of things Revelation speaks of him walking about seeking to devore someone.
He is not in union or purpose with Jehovah he is an adversary
God is simply a title given to a being or thing which has power over another.

free your mind the rest will follow!!!
ALL Heavenly creatures are Spirit beings now we can then break it down into positions angel archangel cherubs serephs God son of God

God is a spirit being. Angels are spirit beings. Demons are spirit beings. They all are spirit beings. there are no instances in the bible of spirit beings reproducing themselves and they can't for spirits are neither female nor male. Jesus said we will be like the angels in heaven neither marrying nor being given in marriage.

Now there is a spirit being who is ominpresent and omnipotent, and omniscent. That being is the one true God, YHWH. There is only one of him. if he reproduced himself with a human woman his offspring would be half spirit being and half flesh being. which would mean that Jesus would be sorta transparent or one half of him would be visible and the other half would be invisible. it would be a mixture of two entirely different kinds. But the bible says Jesus was a man, not half man. So Jesus is fully man and fully not a spirit being.


Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Jesus says here he is not a spirit. So Jesus cannot be the result of a spirit called god copulating with a human called mary.


humans begat humans. man begats a man or woman. God does not begat spirits. Jesus is not a spirit. therefore God had to create human seed to fertilize Mary's egg so that Mary could have a full human son. Jesus is the son of God but not because God has spiritual genitalia that he procreates with. Jesus is the son of God because God created male seed and used it to fertilize Mary's egg. Jer.. 31.22

Jeremiah 31:22 How long wilt thou go about, O thou backsliding daughter? for the LORD hath created a new thing in the earth, A woman shall compass a man.


A woman (Mary) compassed (or went around) a man for what? to conceive obviously. and she conceived with the new thing (male seed) that God created for her. this is something new that God created after the 6 days of creation. it resulted in the new man the second or last adam to replace the first adam. Jesus is the first born of this new creation of God and Jesus is also the beginning of the new creation of god.

Revelation 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

Colossians 1:15 who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;


obviously Jesus is not the firstborn of rock creation, or animal creation or the adamic creation. obviously Jesus is the firstborn of the new creation, of which we are also new creations . Jesus is the firstborn, we are second third fourth etc.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

All the brethern are new creations, and Jesus is the firstborn of all the new creations of God. Ganz einfach.

 

[2ducklow]

Permit me to illucidate a point I was trying to make.

If Jesus is fully human and fully
God, then Jesus is fully flesh and fully a spirit being. For God is a spirit being and not a human being. and man is a fleshly being and not a spirit being.

Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

or

Ezekiel 28:2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:

a man is not God and God is not a man. works both ways.

and God reiterates his point in Hosea

will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I am God, and not a man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not enter into the city. [Hosea 11:9

or again

1 Samuel 15:29, "The Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for He is not a man, that He should repent."

and God could not change into a man because that would violate his immutablility.

I am the LORD, I change not" (Mal 3:6)


God did not change from spirit to flesh. He has always been a spirit and always will be a spirit, he changes not.

 

[just human]

I agree with what you are saying for the most part.
I think where we differ is on Jesus existance prior to his become the embryo placed in Mary's womb. No YHWH didn't have sexual relations with Mary, he with his holy spirit transfered his sons lifeforce into mary's womb.
I am not sure if you believe in the resurrection or not but I believe after his death ( not immediatly) he was taken back to his Father's Heavenly abode to sit at his right hand.
While a man his lifeforce or soal would have been in his blood as per OT description in the Pentatuach

 

[just human]

It is more like Jesus was Spirit then Flesh and then once again Spirit accourding to the scriptures

 

[2ducklow]

I agree with what you are saying for the most part.
I think where we differ is on Jesus existance prior to his become the embryo placed in Mary's womb. No YHWH didn't have sexual relations with Mary, he with his holy spirit transfered his sons lifeforce into mary's womb.
I am not sure if you believe in the resurrection or not but I believe after his death ( not immediatly) he was taken back to his Father's Heavenly abode to sit at his right hand.
While a man his lifeforce or soal would have been in his blood as per OT description in the Pentatuach

I believe Jesus did not exist prior to his birth. and one scripture I believe prooves this is Romans 8.29 which states that Jesus was foreknown by God.

Romans 8:29 For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren:

If Jesus existed for all eternity prior to his birth then He would have been known by God not foreknown. There are others that proove Jesus began his life at his birth but I consider roms. 8.29 a biggie.

Yes I believe in the resurrection. you said in your other post that you beieve Jesus is more spirit than flesh or something like that. I would say that he is more spirtually minded than any other human. As far as Jesus being a spirit being, no i belive the scipture I quoted proves that Jesus is not a spirit being but is flesh and blood.

Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Jesus says here he has flesh and bones, and this is after the resurection, he also states that those who have flesh and bonees are not spirits. To me it couldn't be clearer.

 

[2ducklow]

I agree with what you are saying for the most part.
I think where we differ is on Jesus existance prior to his become the embryo placed in Mary's womb.

The problem I see with this idea that God placed an embryo in Mary's womb is that it contradicts scritpure that states that Mary conceived, and that God begat Jesus. God placing an embryo in Mary's womb would mean that Mary did not conceive Jesus. conception and begat mean the same thing except conception is the female action and begatting is the male action.

If god created an embryo and placed it in Mary's womb then that could mean that god is the father of Jesus for he would have been the one creating it, but it would mean that Mary is not the mother of Jesus but rather a surrogate mother.

No YHWH didn't have sexual relations with Mary, he with his holy spirit transfered his sons lifeforce into mary's womb.
I am not sure if you believe in the resurrection or not but I believe after his death ( not immediatly) he was taken back to his Father's Heavenly abode to sit at his right hand.
While a man his lifeforce or soal would have been in his blood as per OT description in the Pentatuach

 

[StudentoftheWord]

mother of Jesus but rather a surrogate mother.

Of which there is no difference according to Jewish Law. He was still born of Mary.

 

[just human]

I believe Jesus did not exist prior to his birth. and one scripture I believe prooves this is Romans 8.29 which states that Jesus was foreknown by God.

Romans 8:29 For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren:

If Jesus existed for all eternity prior to his birth then He would have been known by God not foreknown. There are others that proove Jesus began his life at his birth but I consider roms. 8.29 a biggie.

Yes I believe in the resurrection. you said in your other post that you beieve Jesus is more spirit than flesh or something like that. I would say that he is more spirtually minded than any other human. As far as Jesus being a spirit being, no i belive the scipture I quoted proves that Jesus is not a spirit being but is flesh and blood.
At no time was he both Spirit being and human being it is an either or not both at once

Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Jesus says here he has flesh and bones, and this is after the resurection, he also states that those who have flesh and bonees are not spirits. To me it couldn't be clearer.

I didn't say Jesus always existed. I just said my understanding is of his existence prior to coming to earth. I believe he was begotten as a heavenly being prior to becoming the human Jesus.
I also believe he was flesh when speaking to his disciples but that was before he accended to his Father. When he accended he had to be Spirit because Flesh and Blood can't enter into the Heavens.
The prophecy in the garden of eden foretold the coming of Jesus and his death but that it would not last as shown by him being bruised in the heal so to speak because although he died he was resurrected while Satans eventuality is everlasting destruction.

 

[just human]

The problem I see with this idea that God placed an embryo in Mary's womb is that it contradicts scritpure that states that Mary conceived, and that God begat Jesus. God placing an embryo in Mary's womb would mean that Mary did not conceive Jesus. conception and begat mean the same thing except conception is the female action and begatting is the male action.

If god created an embryo and placed it in Mary's womb then that could mean that god is the father of Jesus for he would have been the one creating it, but it would mean that Mary is not the mother of Jesus but rather a surrogate mother.

I was trying to describe a miracle, perhaps poorly, and not at the center of what I meant to convey.
I also believe that YHWH caused Mary's egg to grow by means of his Holy Spirit.
I am sorry I didn't realize I was making an argueing point
just human

 

[2ducklow]

I didn't say Jesus always existed. I just said my understanding is of his existence prior to coming to earth. I believe he was begotten as a heavenly being prior to becoming the human Jesus.
I also believe he was flesh when speaking to his disciples but that was before he accended to his Father. When he accended he had to be Spirit because Flesh and Blood can't enter into the Heavens.
The prophecy in the garden of eden foretold the coming of Jesus and his death but that it would not last as shown by him being bruised in the heal so to speak because although he died he was resurrected while Satans eventuality is everlasting destruction.

your doctrine that Jesus pre existed his birth prevents you from accepting that conceived means male seed fertilizing female egg. It forces you to have a totally inaccurate definition of conceive. Such as "god caused marys egg to grow." or "God placed an embryo in Mary's womb." Had you not the doctrine that Jesus existed before his birth than you could redily accept that Jesus was conceived,, according to the meaning of conceive.