trinity question

[2ducklow]

Actually, I agree with Justin on this one.


In a previous post in this thread, I shared what I consider keys to understanding the relationship between Jesus and the Heavenly Father in the Bible:

1) Jesus and His Father are separate individuals (John 20:17, 1 Cor 8:6, John 3:16, Rom 15:6).
2) God the Father made Jesus a God; (Acts 2:36, Heb 1:2, 1 Cor 15:28, John 3:35, John 5:26, Rev 3:14).
3) Jesus is Jehovah of the Old Testament (see post #13 & #17)
4) Jesus represents His Father and His Father's will in all things. Jesus is the mediator of dealings between the Heavenly Father and man. (Col 1:19, Col 2:9, 1 Cor 11:3, 1 Jn 2:1)

I've asked this question before in this thread, and haven't gotten an answer yet: Where in the NT does Jesus identify God the Father as YHWY? To the contrary, Jesus is identified as YHWY. I gave some reasons why this is so in post 64. Also, from post 64 "It is in the NT that we learn of God the Father and Jesus as two different Gods, so it is also from the NT that we learn which one was LORD in the OT."

The crux of the matter is the hebrew word elohym. elohym can mean gods, god, magistrates,. Elohym is not a direct equivalent to our word God. That is where much confusion comes in. And I believe that the greek word theos was used to mean the hebrew word elohym by the Jews.
Saying Jesus is an elohym would mean that Jesus is God's representative not that he is god. Just as majistrates are called elohyms because they are god's representatives.
Jesus does not, IMO anywhere in the NT identify God as Jahweh. As far as I know. But the OT identifies Yahweh as god, which is all the proof I need that Yahweh is god.
I do not consider john 8;58 a reference to yahweh. Jesus and God are 2 gods but not the same kind of gods. Jesus is a god the way that we are gods (elohyms).
Yahweh is elohym but we elohyms are not yahweh.
John 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

I've read with interest many of your posts on this forum. From them I gather that you hold Jesus and God the Father to be seperate, numerically distinct persons (please correct me if I have misunderstood).

I would say 2 distinct beings. I do not consider God to be a person. ONly humans are presons. God is not a man.

This has been my stance throughout this discussion. If so, how do you explain plentiful NT statements declaring Jesus God? When God Himself declares Jesus God, how are there not two Gods in some very real sense?

I would have to explain each scripture on a case by case basis. I think my explanation above about elohym answers this question in part.

So, which version of the Bible do you think Origen was using?

No version that we have today. he was using manuscripts that don't even exist anymore.

Origen (and Justin Martyr too for that matter) was regarded very highly by contemporary theologians; Even most of those that disagreed with him on various issues (including this one) showered him with accolades. From my experience reading much of their works, your assertions that Justin and Origen were doctrinal lightweights do not persuade me.

I just bought a book with tons of quotes from early orthodox christians partly because early orthodox christians are discussed so much in here. My first exposure to Justin's writings left me with that impression that he didn't have much depth to his understanding of scripture.

That said, I do not consider any of the early church fathers or apologists to have been inspired. To the contrary, I see them brining Hellenistic philosophies into their teachings and confusing doctrines, especially those regarding what would become the doctrine of the Trinity. However, all of the theologians before Athanasius (320 AD) taught some form of subordinationism. On this matter they were closer to the LDS viewpoint (and also the Bible's) on the relationship of Jesus to God the Father than to Their conflation at the Council at Nicea.

I consider (from what little I have read from their writings, and what Others have written about them that I have read ) that most were probably born again christians, but not spirit filled christians. I believe that they were inspiried by god at times and at other times not. I would consider the quote of Justins that I quoted to be one of those times when his writings were not inspired by God.

The early christian fathers were also closer to any original teachings of the the apostles not found in the Bible than later writers. So I find their insight valuable, though not on par with the words of the apostles found in the Bible.

I believe their teachings to be a part of the general corruption of doctrine, and scritpures, that swept through the church immediately after and durring the apostles tenure.

Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

Acts 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

As an aside, I also disagree with your take on John 1:18. Many scriptures indicate that prophets have indeed seen God: Matt 5:8, Acts 7:56, John 6:46, Gen 32:30, Ex. 33:11, Deut 34:10, Rev. 4:2-3 for starters. John himself clarifies his meaning just a few chapters later in 5:37 “And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape” and 6:46 “Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.” The phrase “not seen the Father,” applied to Jesus' present audience, and indeed to most people, but not to the exclusion of the possibility.

I have seen god with spiritual eyes, but I have never seen god with my natural eyes. I believe no one will ever see god with their natural eyes nor has anyone ever seen god with natural eyes. Abraham saw Jesus day not with his natural eyes but with spiritual eyes. I see Jesus all the time, but not with my natural eyes.

 

[eksesar]

Whoa, this is a boring threat ? Talking about Trinity again and again, Why we should be discussing Trinity while you were not pass or accepting Jesus is God?

Well, Bible said that Jesus is God, Take it or leave it ? Rather than Rabbit hole Trinity things.

Take it or leave it again, if John 1:1 said that Jesus is God, whether you like it or not.

 

[Bananna]

I guess the point made over and over is that John 1:1-5 has nothing to do with Yehoshuah (Jesus) but you have chosen to believe otherwise dispite the facts of Hebraic traditional personification of the words that God speaks.

The fact does not surprise me considering the large number of those that profess to follow Yehoshuah (Jesus) yet denigh his heritage and his word which he said he spoke only from the Father and not of himself.

To live torah is to love God, to reject Torah is to reject the living torah, created and infused with God's spirit. the Christ himself.
bananna

 

[jeffC]

I see a lot of 2d-3d-4th hand quotes about Justin.

Justin according to Justin

Click link, to Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho; (ca. 150 a.d.)

1. "[SIZE=+1]There will be no other God, He alone is God who led your fathers out from Egypt, the God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob.[/SIZE]
   [*]Our Priest, who is God, and Christ the Son of God.
   [*]Christ is called God, He is God and Appeared to the Patriarchs.
   [*]The Word is Sent Not as an Inanimate Power, But as [SIZE=+1]a Person[/SIZE] Begotten of the Father's Substance.
   [*]He was God, Son of the only, unbegotten, unutterable God [SIZE=+1]indivisible and inseparable[/SIZE] from the Father.
   [*]Begotten from the Father but not by abscission.
   [*]When God said, “Let Us make”, God conversed with some one who was numerically distinct from Himself, and also a rational Being.
   [*](In Gen 1), there are persons associated with one another, and that they are at least two.
   [*]This Offspring, which was truly brought forth from the Father, was with the Father before all the creatures, and the Father communed with Him.
   [*](God speaking of the Son,) “Your holiness have I begotten Thee from the womb, before the morning star.”
   [*](God calls the Son, God,) “Thy throne, O God is forever,”
   [*](God calls the Son, God,) “Therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed Thee with the oil of gladness.”
   [*](Jesus), Deserving to be worshipped, as God and as Christ
   [*]The true God, God who made all things, is Lord alone.
   [*]The Lord is called the Christ by the Holy Spirit, Our Lord Jesus Christ.
   [*]Who is this King of glory? 'And the Holy Spirit, either from the person of His Father, or from His own person, answers them, `The Lord of hosts, He is this King of glory.'

Thou art a priest for ever, after the order of Melchizedek,'(3)--does this not declare to you(4) that[He was] from of old,(5) and that the God and Father of all things intended Him to be begotten by a human womb? And speaking in other words, which also have been already quoted,[he says]:'Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of rectitude is the sceptre of Thy kingdom.

"Thy throne, O God; is for ever and ever; the sceptre of Thy kingdom is a right sceptre. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity: therefore God, Thy God, hath anointed Thee."(1) For the Spirit designates both [of them] by the name, of God -- both Him who is anointed as Son, and Him who does anoint, that is, the Father.






​

But you're ignoring the most important direct quote of all from Justin. What does he mean when he uses all of the vocabulary above? How does Justin interpret the phrase "There will be no other God, He alone is God who led your fathers out from Egypt, the God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob." and the others you present?

The following lengthy excerpt is the expanded version of the condensed quote I provided earlier. There can be no doubt what Justin really believed. Note the title to the entire chapter Justin dedicated to this subject:

Chapter LVI.-God Who Appeared to Moses is Distinguished from God the Father.

...

Then I replied, "I shall attempt to persuade you, since you have understood the Scriptures, [of the truth] of what I say, that there is, and that there is said to be, another God and Lord subject to the Maker of all things; who is
also called an Angel, because He announces to men whatsoever the Maker of all things-above whom there is no other God-wishes to announce to them." And quoting once more the previous passage, I asked Trypho, "Do you think that God appeared to Abraham under the oak in Mature, as the Scripture asserts? "

...

Then I replied, "Reverting to the Scriptures, I shall endeavour to persuade you, that He who is said to have appeared to Abraham, and to Jacob, and to Moses, and who is called God, is distinct from Him who made all things,-numerically, I mean, not [distinct] in will. For I affirm that He has never at any time done anything which He who made the world-above whom there is no other God-has not wished Him both to do and to engage Himself with."

...

"It is not on this ground solely," I said, "that it must be admitted absolutely that some other one is called Lord by the Holy Spirit besides Him who is considered Maker of all things;not solely [for what is said] by Moses, but also [for what is said] by David. For there is written by him: `The Lord says to my Lord, Sit on My right hand, until I make Thine enemies Thy footstool, as I have already quoted. And again, in other words: `Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever. A sceptre of equity is the sceptre of Thy kingdom: Thou hast loved righteousness and hated iniquity: therefore God, even Thy God, hath anointed Thee with the oil of gladness above Thy fellows. If, therefore, you assert that the Holy Spirit calls some other one God and Lord, besides the Father of all things and His Christ, answer me; for I undertake to prove to you from Scriptures themselves, that He whom the Scripture calls Lord is not one of the two angels that went to Sodom, but He who was with them, and is called God, that appeared to Abraham."

..."And now have you not perceived, my friends, that one of the three, who is both God and Lord, and ministers to Him who is in the heavens, is Lord of the two angels? For when [the angels] proceeded to Sodom, He remained behind, and communed with Abraham in the words recorded by Moses; and when He departed after the conversation, Abraham went back to his place. And when he came [to Sodom], the two angels no longer conversed with Lot, but Himself, as the Scripture makes evident; and He is the Lord who received commission from the Lord who [remains] in the heavens, i.e., the Maker of all things, to inflict upon Sodom and Gomorrah the [judgments] which the Scripture describes in these terms: `The Lord rained down upon Sodom and Gomorrah sulphur and fire from the Lord out of heaven.' "

I don't know why you don't just admit that Justin was a subordinationist. Many scholars do; Catholic scholars do; they simply hold that he was wrong on this matter. I happen to feel that he was spot on, and the NT happily demonstrates the fact. Where in the NT is Jesus not physically distinct from the Father?

Lets examine part of Justin's analysis in NT context, Heb. 1:8-9: "But unto the Son he[the Father!] saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

Again the NT emphasises that the Father is Jesus' God. Again it is the Father who anoints and empowers the Son. Just as Justin stated.

 

[jeffC]

Exodus 34:14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD [[SIZE=+1]יהוה[/SIZE]/”YHWH”], whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:

Matthew 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Luke 4:8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Deut 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD [[SIZE=+1]יהוה[/SIZE]/”YHWH”] thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

Matt 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

This is not what I am looking for. Jesus is explicitly quoting scripture in response to specific questions; therefor the context of the OT verses is removed from their use in the NT. The context does not justify the fundamental conclusion that Jesus was making an identity statement about the Father. Just a few reasons why:

1) Jesus lived under the written law in every respect, though He was its author. It was in every way appropriate for Him to quote scriptures and apply them to Himself and others.

2) The Father is not explicitly mentioned in these NT verses; Jesus could just have easily been applying the word LORD to Himself.

3) How do you know that when Jesus quoted the OT verses, he used the word YHWY? The greek uses theos, and as I understand hebrew customs of the time, Jesus would not have spoken aloud the word YHWY but would have used elohim or some other equivalent. This in no way uniquely identifies YHWY with the Father as elohim or adonai, etc. can properly identify either Jesus or the Father.

4) Dualism is a frequent characteristic of scripture. A good example is found in the many messianic passages that are applied to Jesus, even when the subject of the original passage may have been otherwise identified. The wording of the scriptures in the OT do not guarantee the meaning when quoted in the NT.

At best what you have offered is supporting evidence for the real smoking gun, wherever that is. Alone, the mere possibility that Jesus' meaning was as you hope is not sufficient to contradict the many clear and direct statements by Jesus Himself that He is separate from the Father, and that Jesus Himself is the God of the OT.

 

[jeffC]

The crux of the matter is the hebrew word elohym. elohym can mean gods, god,
magistrates,. Elohym is not a direct equivalent to our word God. That is where much confusion
comes in. And I believe that the greek word theos was used to mean the hebrew word elohym by
the Jews.
Saying Jesus is an elohym would mean that Jesus is God's representative not that he is god.
Just as majistrates are called elohyms because they are god's representatives.
Jesus does not, IMO anywhere in the NT identify God as Jahweh. As far as I know. But the OT
identifies Yahweh as god, which is all the proof I need that Yahweh is god.
I do not consider john 8;58 a reference to yahweh. Jesus and God are 2 gods but not the same
kind of gods. Jesus is a god the way that we are gods (elohyms).
Yahweh is elohym but we elohyms are not yahweh.
John 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

Your explanation is really not so far from what I am saying. I do not equate the authority of
Jesus and the Father. I do claim that Jesus was yahweh; I understand that your viewpoint comes
from OT scriptures with the phrasing "there is no god above yahweh." However, I hold that the
NT contains a greater light and the fullness of the gospel, so we learn things in the NT that
were unknown in the OT. The context of the OT declarations of this type are for the most part
against a backdrop condemning idolatry - of course the supremacy of the God of Israel was
emphasised. This together with the understanding that Jesus (as yahweh) was part of the
Godhead above which there is no authority lets me conclude with Justin that the Bible teaches
not only was Jesus the God who appeared to Abraham, but the Father is a God yet higher than
yahweh (considering the hierarchy within the Godhead itself. That the OT identifies yahweh as
God is further evidence of that Jesus is and will be our God, just as Rev. 21:7 says.

Consider the frequently quoted Col 2:9: "For in [Christ] dwelleth all the fullness of the
Godhead bodily."

I don't use John 8:58 among my reasons in post 64, though I do see it as a reference to
yahweh. Along with Justin, Ignatius and Polycarp emphasise Jesus as their God. I find this
interesting because both are widely considered to have been actual disciples of the apostle
John, who more than any other writer in the NT emphasised the deity of Jesus. On such a
fundamental issue, it is difficult to think that they would have misunderstood John's meaning.
Of course they also reference the Father over the Son, but other than authority I have found
little distinction mentioned between the Godhood of the Father and that of the Son.

"For our GOD, Jesus the Christ, was conceived in the womb by Mary..." (Ignatius, To
Ephesians 18:2),
". . . may He (God the Father) grant unto you a lot with and portion among His saints, and to
us with you, and to all that are under heaven, who shall believe on our Lord and GOD Jesus
Christ and on His Father that raised Him from the dead" (12:2: Lightfoot, p. 181).

Obviously there are differences between our views, but I would submit that the greatest of
these here is the distinction you draw between the "kind of god" that the Father is and the
Son is. I think I hold them to be more similar than you seem to.

I would say 2 distinct beings. I do not consider God to be a person. ONly
humans are presons. God is not a man.

I would have to explain each scripture on a case by case basis. I think my explanation above
about elohym answers this question in part.

I will agree with you here. But as you point out, humans are also elohim. I take the following


scriptures about God quite literally:

John 5:37 God has a "shape" (appearance, form),
Gen. 1: 27 (Moses 2: 27) God created man in his own image.
Rom. 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Gen 32:30, Ex 33:11 Moses and Jacob spoke to God face to face
John 14: 9 he that hath seen me hath seen the Father.
Heb. 1: 3 Jesus is the express image of the Father's person.
1 Jn 4:1-2 BEHOLD, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be
called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved,
now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that,
when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.


​

My belief would be that the nature of the being of Jesus is identical to that of God the
Father. The most significant difference between the two is the authority of the Father over
Jesus, and Jesus' submission to the Father in all things, and that it was the Father who
begat/created Jesus.

I consider (from what little I have read from their writings, and what Others
have written about them that I have read ) that most were probably born again christians, but
not spirit filled christians. I believe that they were inspiried by god at times and at other
times not. I would consider the quote of Justins that I quoted to be one of those times when
his writings were not inspired by God.
I believe their teachings to be a part of the general corruption of doctrine, and scritpures,
that swept through the church immediately after and durring the apostles tenure.

Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you,
not sparing the flock.

Acts 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away
disciples after them.

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall
come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

I have no real disagreement here, except in the case of Justin I think he got his
understanding of Jesus as yahweh from an earlier source.

I have seen god with spiritual eyes, but I have never seen god with my natural
eyes. I believe no one will ever see god with their natural eyes nor has anyone ever seen god
with natural eyes. Abraham saw Jesus day not with his natural eyes but with spiritual eyes. I
see Jesus all the time, but not with my natural eyes.

This is also not so dissimilar to what I believe. "For no man has seen God at any time in the
flesh, except quickened by the Spirit of God. Neither can any natural man abide the presence
of God..." (D&C 67:11-12).

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]This is not what I am looking for. Jesus is explicitly quoting scripture in response to specific questions; therefor the context of the OT verses is removed from their use in the NT. The context does not justify the fundamental conclusion that Jesus was making an identity statement about the Father. Just a few reasons why:

1) Jesus lived under the written law in every respect, though He was its author. It was in every way appropriate for Him to quote scriptures and apply them to Himself and others.

2) The Father is not explicitly mentioned in these NT verses; Jesus could just have easily been applying the word LORD to Himself.

3) How do you know that when Jesus quoted the OT verses, he used the word YHWY? The greek uses theos, and as I understand hebrew customs of the time, Jesus would not have spoken aloud the word YHWY but would have used elohim or some other equivalent. This in no way uniquely identifies YHWY with the Father as elohim or adonai, etc. can properly identify either Jesus or the Father.

4) Dualism is a frequent characteristic of scripture. A good example is found in the many messianic passages that are applied to Jesus, even when the subject of the original passage may have been otherwise identified. The wording of the scriptures in the OT do not guarantee the meaning when quoted in the NT.

At best what you have offered is supporting evidence for the real smoking gun, wherever that is. Alone, the mere possibility that Jesus' meaning was as you hope is not sufficient to contradict the many clear and direct statements by Jesus Himself that He is separate from the Father, and that Jesus Himself is the God of the OT[/SIZE].

At best all you have done is make unsupported assertions. Saying, "I'm right and you're wrong." does not make it so. You must prove, not merely assert, that the O.T. does not mean exactly what is says, when quoted by Jesus or anyone else in the N.T.

You are making claims about what Jesus did or did not mean. Jesus said, "Not one yod or one tittle will in any wise pass from the law until all be fulfilled." God said in the O.T., "My word which goes forth out of my mouth will not return unto me void. It will accomplish the purpose where unto I have sent it."

You are trying to distort and change the meaning of God's word to make it fit your presuppositions and assumptions. When Jesus quotes an O.T. passage which has the covenant name of God, YHWH, it doesn't matter if Jesus used the Greek word Theos, so his Greek audience would understand, that verse did, does, and always will refer to YHWH.

 

[jeffC]

At best all you have done is make unsupported assertions. Saying, "I'm right and you're wrong." does not make it so. You must prove, not merely assert, that the O.T. does not mean exactly what is says, when quoted by Jesus or anyone else in the N.T.

You are making claims about what Jesus did or did not mean. Jesus said, "Not one yod or one tittle will in any wise pass from the law until all be fulfilled." God said in the O.T., "My word which goes forth out of my mouth will not return unto me void. It will accomplish the purpose where unto I have sent it."

You are trying to distort and change the meaning of God's word to make it fit your presuppositions and assumptions. When Jesus quotes an O.T. passage which has the covenant name of God, YHWH, it doesn't matter if Jesus used the Greek word Theos, so his Greek audience would understand, that verse did, does, and always will refer to YHWH.

You have missed my point. I intentionally indicated my purpose was not to disprove your interpretation. My assertions were no less supported than your attempt to equate Jesus' recitation of scripture which in the OT uses the Tetragrammaton to a conclusion that the Father is identified by that word. I do not make a claim as to the validity of any of the hypothesis I put forward other than they are feasible. But each of them is as equally likely an interpretation as the claim you put forward, that these verses constitute an identity statement even though the context is foreign to such. Jesus is answering questions put to him by those who would confound him; He does so by quoting their own scriptures. Any deeper meaning not addressing the questions asked is your interpretation for which you have a burden of proof.

 

[2ducklow]

My belief would be that the nature of the being of Jesus is identical to that of God the
Father. The most significant difference between the two is the authority of the Father over
Jesus, and Jesus' submission to the Father in all things, and that it was the Father who
begat/created Jesus.

See, but I beleive Jesus is a full human being with a body soul and human spirit. I believe God is spirit only. I believe the Spirit of the living god indwelt Jesus without measure. whereas, bornagain spirit filled christians only have the spirit of God in them by measure. A physical body cannot be identical to a spirit being. Jesus spoke what his father gave him to spoke and was always manifesting to the world the holy spirit of God that was in him, thereby producing an exact image of the one who indwelt him.

I have no real disagreement here, except in the case of Justin I think he got his
understanding of Jesus as yahweh from an earlier source.

The quotes I posted earlier indicate to me that Paul was struggling with the influence of worldly philosophies, such as neo platonism, in the gentile christian converts. the educated gentiles of that day were quite familiar with neo platonism and other worldly philosophies. It is evident to me from what I have read that many worldly philosophies wormed their way into christian doctrine, logos christology, neo platonism, hinduism , et. al. Remember Paul said , "of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse thing." Acts 20.30. Justin, et. al. was one of those men that was amongst them who arose speaking perverse things, IMO.

 

[Peterson]

If you had only left off the part that I put in bold red we could be in complete accord.

Hey Duck, I've been away from the boards for a few days so i haven't responded. I don't see what there is in my post that you can disagree with. Elohim is a compound noun like family, a single unit comprised of many parts.

In a family, the Father is the head and the son has equal status as a member of the family, but not in position. The Father is still supreme. The son however carries the genes of the Father, and thus is like him. Jesus has the spiritual genes of the Father and preexisted creation.

Trinitarians make the unbiblical claim that Christ is equal to the Father in every sense, and like the Father, has eternally existed - a claim that is nowhere stated in the Bible. When, and how did Christ come to be? The Bible is silent on the subject. He did prexist Genesis 1. That is all we know.

 

[2ducklow]

Hey Duck, I've been away from the boards for a few days so i haven't responded. I don't see what there is in my post that you can disagree with. Elohim is a compound noun like family, a single unit comprised of many parts.

In a family, the Father is the head and the son has equal status as a member of the family, but not in position. The Father is still supreme. The son however carries the genes of the Father, and thus is like him. Jesus has the spiritual genes of the Father and preexisted creation.

Trinitarians make the unbiblical claim that Christ is equal to the Father in every sense, and like the Father, has eternally existed - a claim that is nowhere stated in the Bible. When, and how did Christ come to be? The Bible is silent on the subject. He did prexist Genesis 1. That is all we know.

the doctrine that God is a family is essentially a restatement of trinity using different terminology. It has the same fundemental fatal flaw. That flaw being several gods that are one god. you call god a family they call him a trinity of beings. not a lot of difference from my perspective.
I believe that the understanding most people have about the hebrew word elohym is greatly flawed. Elohym has a pural ending but is used in a plural sense sometimes and in a singular sense at other times in the same manner that our word 'fish' refers to a single fish or lots of fish. the form is the same for both singular and plural but the sense is quite different depending on how it is used. the same is true for the hebrew word elohym elohym has a plural sense and a singular sense depending on who is being refered to. Also, onetheory as to why it has a plural ending is that elohym is a borrowed word from the heatens who used it to refer to their gods, hence the plural ending, But when the hebrews adopted it as their own word they used it to refer to their one god.
And think about this, really there is no word in our languge that has a plural singular meaning. thats like saying some word means up down, or yes no, or right left, or many one. the concept of some word meaning plural singular or many one is just nonsensical.

 

[jeffC]

See, but I beleive Jesus is a full human being with a body soul and human spirit. I believe God is spirit only. I believe the Spirit of the living god indwelt Jesus without measure. whereas, bornagain spirit filled christians only have the spirit of God in them by measure. A physical body cannot be identical to a spirit being. Jesus spoke what his father gave him to spoke and was always manifesting to the world the holy spirit of God that was in him, thereby producing an exact image of the one who indwelt him.

How do you interpret the virgin birth in light of the views you express above? How about descriptions of Jesus existing before the creation of the world?

Apart from God being only a spirit, I don't necessarily disagree with what you have said here, but these ideas form only a part of the picture from an LDS point of view. A very important piece of that puzzle is the notion that Jesus was in fact Jehovah in the old testament. It's difficult to know what Jesus being God really means without realizing that He has always been the Mediator between His Father and humans, in the OT and in the NT.

Margaret Barker, an Old Testament scholar, has concluded that Justin and Origen among several others espoused ideas on the relationship between God the Father and YWHY more ancient than even Paul's warnings. She is one of several scholars that is examining the assumption that ancient Israel was monotheistic in the modern sense of the word.

Her study of OT era documents has led her to conclusions such as the following in The Great Angel, A Study of Israel's Second God.

What has become clear to me time and time again is that even over so wide an area, the evidence points consistently in one direction and indicates that pre-Christian Judaism was not monotheistic in the sense that we use the word. The roots of Christian trinitarian theology lie in pre-Christian Palestinian beliefs about the angels. There were many in first-century Palestine who still retained a world-view derived from the more ancient religion of Israel [that of the First Temple] in which there was a High God and several Sons of God, one of whom was Yahweh, the Holy One of Israel. Yahweh, the Lord, could be manifested on earth in human form, as an angel or in the Davidic king. It was as a manifestation of Yahweh, the Son of God, that Jesus was acknowledged as Son of God, Messiah and Lord.[p.3]

The quotes I posted earlier indicate to me that Paul was struggling with the influence of worldly philosophies, such as neo platonism, in the gentile christian converts. the educated gentiles of that day were quite familiar with neo platonism and other worldly philosophies. It is evident to me from what I have read that many worldly philosophies wormed their way into christian doctrine, logos christology, neo platonism, hinduism , et. al. Remember Paul said , "of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse thing." Acts 20.30. Justin, et. al. was one of those men that was amongst them who arose speaking perverse things, IMO.

How do you determine which historical teachings are true and which are false perversions given that the Bible was compiled by the same individuals you are indicting?

 

[Bananna]

To understand Jewish ideas go to the Jews and their historians. There is no one view but the Dualist view that came about before Christ's time was abhorant to the main body of Jews.

We here and now have a hard time understanding these concepts and yet we do have the ancient traditions of the Jews, the writings about God were maticulously kept. I see a big problem with translators translating their beliefs into the translation.

God grants wisdom to those who ask, but don't be asking about things you don't want the answer to. You have to be willing to leave your family, your friends, your congregation, your community...if that is what God calls you to do, because HIS word is true and all others must be aligned with it or ignored.

Ask God for His spirit to teach you. I'm amazed at what is revealed when I just ask.

Blessings
bananna

 

[Godfixated]

Whoa, this is a boring threat ? Talking about Trinity again and again, Why we should be discussing Trinity while you were not pass or accepting Jesus is God?

Well, Bible said that Jesus is God, Take it or leave it ? Rather than Rabbit hole Trinity things.

Take it or leave it again, if John 1:1 said that Jesus is God, whether you like it or not.

Where beside John 1:1 (which has nothing to do with Jesus being God) does it say that Jesus Christ is God.

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]Where beside John 1:1 (which has nothing to do with Jesus being God) does it say that Jesus Christ is God.[/SIZE]

You are a minority of one.

Ignatius, Epistle to the Magnesians, disciple of John the apostle. [30-107 AD]

He, being begotten by the Father before the beginning of time, was God the Word, the only-begotten Son, and remains the same for ever; for “of His kingdom there shall be no end,” says Daniel the prophet. …

Ignatius, Epistle to the Trallians

And God the Word was truly born of the Virgin, having clothed Himself with a body of like passions with our own. He who forms all men in the womb, was Himself really in the womb, and made for Himself a body of the seed of the Virgin, but without any intercourse of man. Since, also, there is but one unbegotten Being, God, even the Father; and one only-begotten Son, God, the Word and man; . . .

Ignatius, Epistle to the Philadelphians

If any one confesses these things, and that God the Word did dwell in a human body, being within it as the Word, . . .

Ignatius, Epistle to the Smyrneans

our Lord Jesus Christ, that He was the Son of God, “the firstborn of every creature,” God the Word, the only-begotten Son, and was of the seed of David according to the flesh, . . .

Ignatius, Epistle to the Tarsians

. . .He who was born of a woman was the Son of God, and He that was crucified was “the first-born of every creature,” and God the Word, who also created all things.

How could such a one be a mere man, receiving the beginning of His existence from Mary, and not 210 rather God the Word, and the only-begotten Son? For “in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

Ignatius, Epistle to the Philippians

And again, “Hath not one God created us? Have we not all one Father? And there is also one Son, God the Word. For “the only-begotten Son,” saith [the Scripture], “who is in the bosom of the Father.” …

... For “the Word became flesh.” For “Wisdom builded for herself a house.” And God the Word was born as man, with a body, of the Virgin, without any intercourse of man.

Justin - Dialogue with Trypho - [110-165 AD]

God begat before all creatures a Beginning, [who was] a certain rational power [proceeding] from Himself, who is called by the Holy Spirit, now the Glory of the Lord, now the Son, again Wisdom, again an Angel, then God, and then Lord and Logos;

“And that Christ being Lord, and God the Son of God, and appearing formerly in power as Man, and Angel, and in the glory of fire as at the bush, . . .

Irenaeus - Against Heresies Book 1 [120-202 AD] - Disciple of Polycarp, a disciple of John

Very properly, then, did he say, “In the beginning was the Word,” for He was in the Son; “and the Word was with God,” for He was the beginning; “and the Word was God,” of course, for that which is begotten of God is God. “The same was in the beginning with God” …

Irenaeus - Against Heresies - Book 2

Him who is God over all, since He is all Nous, and all Logos, … and has in Himself nothing more ancient or late than another, and nothing at variance with another, but continues altogether equal, and similar, and homogeneous, … He is all intelligence, and all word, . . .He is intelligence, in that also He is word, and that this Nous is His Logos, . . . And in what respect will the Word of God — yea, rather God Himself, since He is the Word . . .

Chap 17 Father of all is not to be regarded as a kind of compound Being, who 762 can be separated from his Nous (mind), as I have already shown; but Nous is the Father, and the Father Nous… he who springs from Him as Logos, or rather that Nous himself, since he is Logos, must be perfect and impassible,… they are of the same substance with himself, should be perfect and impassible, …

Irenaeus - Against Heresies - Book 3

For inasmuch as the Word of God was man from the root of Jesse, and son of Abraham, in this respect did the Spirit of God rest upon Him, and anoint Him to preach the Gospel to the lowly. But inasmuch as He was God, He did not judge according to glory, nor reprove after the manner of speech.

Irenaeus - Against Heresies - Book 4

And through the Word Himself who had been made visible and palpable, was the Father shown forth, … all saw the Father in the Son: for the Father is the invisible of the Son, but the Son the visible of the Father. And for this reason all spake with Christ when He was present [upon earth], and they named Him God.

He, therefore, who was known, was not a different being from Him who declared “No man knoweth the Father,” but one and the same, the Father making all things subject to Him; while He received testimony from all that He was very man, and that He was very God, from the Father, from the Spirit, . . .

For the true God did confess the commandment of the law as the word of God, and called no one else God besides His own Father.

Theophilus To Autolycus - Book 2 - [115 -181 AD]

In like manner also the three days which were before the luminaries, are types of the Trinity, of God, and His Word, and His wisdom.

Hear what I say. The God and Father, indeed, of all cannot be contained, and is not
found in a place, for there is no place of His rest; but His Word, through whom He made all things, being His power and His wisdom, assuming the person of the Father and Lord of all, went to the garden in the person of God, and conversed with Adam.

The Word, then, being God, and being naturally produced from God, whenever the Father of the universe wills, He sends Him to any place; and He, coming, is both heard and seen, being sent by Him, and is found in a place.

Clement of Alexandria - Exhortation To The Heathen - [153 - 217 AD]

Well, inasmuch as the Word was from the first, He was and is the divine source of all things; but inasmuch as He has now assumed the name Christ, consecrated of old, and worthy of power, he has been called by me the New Song. This Word, then, the Christ, the cause of both our being at first (for He was in God) and of our well-being, this very Word has now appeared as man, He alone being both, God and man.

He, who is in Him that truly is, has appeared; for the Word, who “was with God,” and by whom all things were created, has appeared as our Teacher. The Word, who in the beginning bestowed on us life as Creator when He formed us, taught us to live well when He appeared as our Teacher; that as God He might afterwards conduct us to the life which never ends.

If it is thy wish, be thou also initiated; and thou shalt join the choir along with angels around the unbegotten and indestructible and the only true God, the Word of God, raising the hymn with us. This Jesus, who is eternal, the one great High Priest of the one God, and of His Father, prays for and exhorts men.

Clement of Alexandria - The Instructor

God in the form of man, stainless, the minister of His Father’s will, the Word who is God, who is in the Father, who is at the Father’s right hand, and with the form of God is God.

Address Of Tatian To The Greeks – [110-172 AD]

God was in the beginning; but the beginning, we have been taught, is the power of the Logos. . . .And by His simple will the Logos springs forth; and the Logos, not coming forth in vain, becomes the first-begotten work of the Father. Him (the Logos) we know to be the beginning of the world. But He came into being by participation, not by abscission;

Chapter XXI.-Doctrines of the Christians and Greeks Respecting God Compared.

We do not act as fools, O Greeks, nor utter idle tales, when we announce that God was born in the form of a man.

A Plea For The Christians By Athenagoras The Athenian: [c.120- 180]

. . . But the Son of God is the Logos of the Father, in idea and in operation; for after the pattern of Him and by Him were all things made, the Father and the Son being one. . . .Who, then, would not be astonished to hear men who speak of God the Father, and of God the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, and who declare both their power in union and their distinction in order, called atheists?

…that they know God and His Logos, what is the oneness of the Son with the Father, what the communion of the Father with the Son, what is the Spirit, what is the unity of these three, the Spirit, the Son, the Father, and their distinction in unity; and who know 255 that the life for which we look is far better than can be described in words,

The Epistle Of Mathetes To Diognetus [c. 130 AD]

…but truly God Himself, who is almighty, the Creator of all things, and invisible, has sent from heaven, and placed among men, [Him who is] the truth, and the holy and incomprehensible Word, and has firmly established Him in their hearts … but the very Creator and Fashioner of all things-by whom He made the heavens-by whom he enclosed the sea within its proper bounds-whose ordinances all the stars faithfully observe-from whom the sun has received the measure of his daily course to be observed -whom the moon obeys, . . . and whom the stars also obey, . . .by whom all things have been arranged, and placed within their proper limits, and to whom all are subject-the heavens and the things that are therein, the earth and the things that are therein, the sea and the things that are therein-fire, air, and the abyss-the things which are in the heights, the things which are in the depths, and the things which lie between. This [messenger] He sent to them. Was it then, as one might conceive, for the purpose of exercising tyranny, or of inspiring fear and terror? By no means, but under the influence of clemency and meekness. As a king sends his son, who is also a king, so sent He Him; as God He sent Him; as to men He sent Him; as a Saviour He sent Him, and as seeking to persuade, not to compel us; for violence has no place in the character of God....

. . .For which reason He sent the Word, that He might be manifested to the world; and He, being despised by the people [of the Jews], was, when preached by the Apostles, believed on by the Gentiles. This is He who was from the beginning, who appeared as if new, and was found old, and yet who is ever born afresh in the hearts of the saints. This is He who, being from everlasting, is to-day called the Son; through whom the Church is enriched, and grace, widely spread, increases in the saints…​

Watch this space I have more.

Wait, I know, the entire early church, in the first 2-3 centuries got it wrong but you got is right, altho you couldn't parse a Greek verb if your life depended on it.

 

[Der Alte]

Where beside John 1:1 (which has nothing to do with Jesus being God) does it say that Jesus Christ is God.

Ex. 17:7; Ps. 95:7, Heb. 3:7-11, Acts 5:3, 4; Hebrews 9:14, Luke 1:35, Psalm 139:7, 1 Cor 2:10,11, Matt 12:32, Heb 10:29, John 14:16, Heb. 9:14 , Job 33:4; Ps. 104:30, Matt. 12:28, Rom. 15:18-19, 1 Cor. 2:10, John 14:26, 2 Cor. 13:14, 1 Cor. 3:16 and 6:19, Gen. 1:2; Job 33:4; Ps. 104:30, Matt. 12:28, Eph. 2:17-18; 1 Cor. 12:13, Luke 1:35; Rom. 8:11, Heb. 9:4, Gen. 1:2; Job 26:13; Ps. 104:30, Matt. 12:28; 1 Cor. 12:9-11, Isa. 6:3; Acts 28:25; Rom. 9:1; Rev. 1:4


John 1:1,John 1:14,John 5:18,John 8:24,John 8:58,Exodus 3:14,John 10:30-33,John 20:28, Col. 2:9, Phil. 2:5-8, Heb. 1:8, Psalm 45:6, Matt. 4:10, Matt. 2:2, Matt. 2:11, Matt. 14:33, Matt. 28:9, John 9:35-38, Heb. 1:6, Acts 7:55-60, 1 Cor. 1:1-2, 1 Kings 18:24, Zech. 13:9, Rom. 10:13-14, Joel 2:32, Isaiah 44:6, Rev. 1:17.

Bible verses that show Jesus is God

Following are verses used to show that Jesus is God in flesh. The scriptures used here are from the New American Standard Bible. The links to the verses are to the King James Version of the Bible here on CARM.

1. John 1:1 - "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

A. John 1:14 - "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."

2. John 5:18 - "For this cause therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God."

3. John 8:24 - "I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins."
. Note: In the Greek, "He" is not there.

4. John 8:58 - "Jesus said to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.'"
. Exodus 3:14 - "And God said to Moses, 'I AM WHO I AM'; and He said, Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’"

5. John 10:30-33 - "I and the Father are one." 31The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. 32Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?" 33The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God."

6. John 20:28 - "Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"

7. Col. 2:9 - "For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form."

8. Phil. 2:5-8 - "Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, 11and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

9. Heb. 1:8 - "But of the Son He says, "Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom."
. Quoted from Psalm 45:6, "Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever; a scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Thy kingdom."

Jesus is worshipped - Jesus said to worship God only, yet He receives worship.

1. Matt. 4:10 - "Then Jesus *said to him, 'Begone, Satan! For it is written, "You shall worship the Lord your God, and serve Him only."’"

2. Matt. 2:2 - "Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we saw His star in the east, and have come to worship Him."

3. Matt. 2:11 - "And they came into the house and saw the Child with Mary His mother; and they fell down and worshiped Him; and opening their treasures they presented to Him gifts of gold and frankincense and myrrh."

4. Matt. 14:33 - "And those who were in the boat worshiped Him, saying, "You are certainly God’s Son!"

5. Matt. 28:9 - "And behold, Jesus met them and greeted them. And they came up and took hold of His feet and worshiped Him."

6. John 9:35-38 - "Jesus heard that they had put him out; and finding him, He said, "Do you believe in the Son of Man?" 36He answered and said, "And who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him?" 37Jesus said to him, "You have both seen Him, and He is the one who is talking with you." 38 And he said, "Lord, I believe." And he worshiped Him."

7. Heb. 1:6 - "And when He again brings the first-born into the world, He says, 'And let all the angels of God worship Him.'"

Jesus is prayed to

1. Acts 7:55-60 - "But being full of the Holy Spirit, he gazed intently into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God; 56 and he said, "Behold, I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God." 57But they cried out with a loud voice, and covered their ears, and they rushed upon him with one impulse. 58And when they had driven him out of the city, they began stoning him, and the witnesses laid aside their robes at the feet of a young man named Saul. 59And they went on stoning Stephen as he called upon the Lord and said, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!" 60And falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them!" And having said this, he fell asleep."

2. 1 Cor. 1:1-2 - "Paul, called as an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother, 2to the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours." (The phrase, "to call upon the name of the Lord" is a phrase used to designate prayer.)

A. 1 Kings 18:24 - "Then you call on the name of your god, and I will call on the name of the Lord, and the God who answers by fire, He is God." And all the people answered and said, "That is a good idea."

B. Zech. 13:9 - "And I will bring the third part through the fire, refine them as silver is refined, and test them as gold is tested. They will call on My name, and I will answer them; I will say, ‘They are My people,’ and they will say, ‘The Lord is my God.’"

3. Rom. 10:13-14 - "for 'whoever will call upon the name of the Lord' will be saved." 14 How then shall they call upon Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him whom they have not heard?" (Paul is speaking of calling upon Jesus. (The phrase "Call upon the name of the Lord" is a quote from Joel 2:32).

. Joel 2:32 - "And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call." (LORD here is YHWH, the name of God as revealed in Exodus 3:14. Therefore, this quote, dealing with God Himself is attributed to Jesus.)

First and Last

1. Isaiah 44:6 - "Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: ‘I am the first and I am the last, and there is no God besides Me."
A. Rev. 1:17 - "Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, 18and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades."

 

[2ducklow]

How do you interpret the virgin birth in light of the views you express above? How about descriptions of Jesus existing before the creation of the world?

God created a new male seed to fertilize Mary's egg. thus making Jesus the firstborn of all (new human) creation.

Apart from God being only a spirit, I don't necessarily disagree with what you have said here, but these ideas form only a part of the picture from an LDS point of view. A very important piece of that puzzle is the notion that Jesus was in fact Jehovah in the old testament.

What is the scripture for that belief? I seem to recall you posting something that wasn't very conclusive IMO.

It's difficult to know what Jesus being God really means without realizing that He has always been the Mediator between His Father and humans, in the OT and in the NT.

I believe he is the son of God and that there is only one god, god the father. I do not believe Jesus is God, except he is elohym in the same way we are elohym.

Margaret Barker, an Old Testament scholar, has concluded that Justin and Origen among several others espoused ideas on the relationship between God the Father and YWHY more ancient than even Paul's warnings. She is one of several scholars that is examining the assumption that ancient Israel was monotheistic in the modern sense of the word.

That would be polythiesm if god the father is one god and yhwh is another god.

Her study of OT era documents has led her to conclusions such as the following in The Great Angel, A Study of Israel's Second God.



How do you determine which historical teachings are true and which are false perversions given that the Bible was compiled by the same individuals you are indicting?

examine the evidence. They left a paper trail . I do not consider that most were unsaved au contraire I believe most were born again. So not everything they say is wrong, Just as today not everything any christian says is totally right or totally wrong., . It's like today, some christians are more influenced by worldly beliefs than others. some christians are more influenced by feminism than others and it is reflected in their writings. it is no difficult task to recognise the influence of feminism in a bible that is so called 'gender friendly'. It is no difficult task to recognise the influence of neo platonism in the writings of the so called early church fathers. we should use the same standards for judging what so called early church fathers wrote that we use for judging what modern day christians say.

 

[Godfixated]

Ex. 17:7; Ps. 95:7, Heb. 3:7-11, Acts 5:3, 4; Hebrews 9:14, Luke 1:35, Psalm 139:7, 1 Cor 2:10,11, Matt 12:32, Heb 10:29, John 14:16, Heb. 9:14 , Job 33:4; Ps. 104:30, Matt. 12:28, Rom. 15:18-19, 1 Cor. 2:10, John 14:26, 2 Cor. 13:14, 1 Cor. 3:16 and 6:19, Gen. 1:2; Job 33:4; Ps. 104:30, Matt. 12:28, Eph. 2:17-18; 1 Cor. 12:13, Luke 1:35; Rom. 8:11, Heb. 9:4, Gen. 1:2; Job 26:13; Ps. 104:30, Matt. 12:28; 1 Cor. 12:9-11, Isa. 6:3; Acts 28:25; Rom. 9:1; Rev. 1:4


John 1:1,John 1:14,John 5:18,John 8:24,John 8:58,Exodus 3:14,John 10:30-33,John 20:28, Col. 2:9, Phil. 2:5-8, Heb. 1:8, Psalm 45:6, Matt. 4:10, Matt. 2:2, Matt. 2:11, Matt. 14:33, Matt. 28:9, John 9:35-38, Heb. 1:6, Acts 7:55-60, 1 Cor. 1:1-2, 1 Kings 18:24, Zech. 13:9, Rom. 10:13-14, Joel 2:32, Isaiah 44:6, Rev. 1:17.

Bible verses that show Jesus is God

Following are verses used to show that Jesus is God in flesh. The scriptures used here are from the New American Standard Bible. The links to the verses are to the King James Version of the Bible here on CARM.

1. John 1:1 - "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

A. John 1:14 - "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."

2. John 5:18 - "For this cause therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God."

3. John 8:24 - "I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins."
. Note: In the Greek, "He" is not there.

4. John 8:58 - "Jesus said to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.'"
. Exodus 3:14 - "And God said to Moses, 'I AM WHO I AM'; and He said, Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’"

5. John 10:30-33 - "I and the Father are one." 31The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. 32Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?" 33The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God."

6. John 20:28 - "Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"

7. Col. 2:9 - "For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form."

8. Phil. 2:5-8 - "Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, 11and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

9. Heb. 1:8 - "But of the Son He says, "Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom."
. Quoted from Psalm 45:6, "Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever; a scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Thy kingdom."

Jesus is worshipped - Jesus said to worship God only, yet He receives worship.

1. Matt. 4:10 - "Then Jesus *said to him, 'Begone, Satan! For it is written, "You shall worship the Lord your God, and serve Him only."’"

2. Matt. 2:2 - "Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we saw His star in the east, and have come to worship Him."

3. Matt. 2:11 - "And they came into the house and saw the Child with Mary His mother; and they fell down and worshiped Him; and opening their treasures they presented to Him gifts of gold and frankincense and myrrh."

4. Matt. 14:33 - "And those who were in the boat worshiped Him, saying, "You are certainly God’s Son!"

5. Matt. 28:9 - "And behold, Jesus met them and greeted them. And they came up and took hold of His feet and worshiped Him."

6. John 9:35-38 - "Jesus heard that they had put him out; and finding him, He said, "Do you believe in the Son of Man?" 36He answered and said, "And who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him?" 37Jesus said to him, "You have both seen Him, and He is the one who is talking with you." 38 And he said, "Lord, I believe." And he worshiped Him."

7. Heb. 1:6 - "And when He again brings the first-born into the world, He says, 'And let all the angels of God worship Him.'"

Jesus is prayed to

1. Acts 7:55-60 - "But being full of the Holy Spirit, he gazed intently into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God; 56 and he said, "Behold, I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God." 57But they cried out with a loud voice, and covered their ears, and they rushed upon him with one impulse. 58And when they had driven him out of the city, they began stoning him, and the witnesses laid aside their robes at the feet of a young man named Saul. 59And they went on stoning Stephen as he called upon the Lord and said, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!" 60And falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them!" And having said this, he fell asleep."

2. 1 Cor. 1:1-2 - "Paul, called as an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother, 2to the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours." (The phrase, "to call upon the name of the Lord" is a phrase used to designate prayer.)

A. 1 Kings 18:24 - "Then you call on the name of your god, and I will call on the name of the Lord, and the God who answers by fire, He is God." And all the people answered and said, "That is a good idea."

B. Zech. 13:9 - "And I will bring the third part through the fire, refine them as silver is refined, and test them as gold is tested. They will call on My name, and I will answer them; I will say, ‘They are My people,’ and they will say, ‘The Lord is my God.’"

3. Rom. 10:13-14 - "for 'whoever will call upon the name of the Lord' will be saved." 14 How then shall they call upon Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him whom they have not heard?" (Paul is speaking of calling upon Jesus. (The phrase "Call upon the name of the Lord" is a quote from Joel 2:32).

. Joel 2:32 - "And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call." (LORD here is YHWH, the name of God as revealed in Exodus 3:14. Therefore, this quote, dealing with God Himself is attributed to Jesus.)

First and Last

1. Isaiah 44:6 - "Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: ‘I am the first and I am the last, and there is no God besides Me."
A. Rev. 1:17 - "Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, 18and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades."

While, I applaud your effort, not one of these verses say that Jesus Christ is God. As you probably know, God has many names. He should because He is so wonderful. He is referred to Adonai, Elohim, Jehovah, and Ho theos, just to name a few. It is interesting to note that Jesus Christ is never called one of these names. He has been referred to as adoni, kurion, and theos. These, of course, are not all of His names, but these are the main ones. Adoni andkurion are always human. Theos can be translated into god, but it was a common practice in Greek to call your human lord theos. Ho theos only refers to God almighty. Some examples of these being used are Psalm 110:1, John 20:28, and Acts 2:36. It is also interesting to note that God is called God thousands of times in the Bible, but Jesus Christ is only called God twice. John 20:28 is one of them and the other is in the Old Testament but I not sure exactly where, I think it is in Amos.
Psalm 110:1," The LORD (God, Adonai) said unto my Lord (Jesus Christ, Adoni), Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool."
John 20:28,"And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord (kurion) and my God (theos)."
Acts 2:36,"Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord (kurion) and Christ.
Another place where the Greek texts make a difference is John 10:30 and John 1:1, which you have already mentioned. John 10:30 cleary states,"I and My Father are one." This can easily be taken to say that He is God, but if you look at the Greek, this just isn't so. The word, one, in this verse is derived from the Greek word, hen. Hen means oneness of purpose, it does not mean the same exact. In John 1:1, it says," In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." This is one of those so called "vague" verses that people just put their own meaning to. If you look at the Greek texts, you immediately see that the word "with" in the verse is the Greek word pros and it means to be together with, but distinctly independent of. So obviously can't mean what most Trinitarians think it means. Pros is used in John 1:2, as well. "The same was in the beginning with (pros) God." If you read the context of the rest of John 1, it never even hints that Jesus Christ is God, but that Jesus was in God's foreknowledge. It, also, mentions that we were in God's foreknowledge, also. So, technically, we were with Him in the beginning, as well. So John 1:1 can be seen as this,"In the beginning was God, and the Word made flesh was together but distinctly independent of God, and the foreknowledge of Jesus Christ was God."
Here are some other verses to consider just by reading them. John 10:33-38,"The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him."
If Jesus was claiming to be God, shouldn't this had been a good time to say so? He never says that He is God. Actually, He says that He is not God.

Deuteronomy 6:4,"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:"

1 Corinthians 8:6,"But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him."

Ephesians 4:6,"One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."

1 Timothy 2:5,"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;"

Where in these verses does it mention that God is three in one? None. In fact there is not one place that says that there is a triune God. Oh wait, you might say look at 1 John 5:7-8. 1 John 5:7-8,"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one."
There is one big problem. The part that says,"...in heaven,the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth," did not appear in any Greek texts prior to the 16th century.
So the verse should, actually, say,"For there are three that bear record, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one." This makes alot more sense anyway and it flows better."
Well, that is all for now. I know there is alot of info, but it requires alot of info to be presented

 

[jeffC]

God created a new male seed to fertilize Mary's egg. thus making Jesus the firstborn of all (new human) creation.

Where is this in the Bible? Are you saying some humans are of a different creation than others?

Apart from God being only a spirit, I don't necessarily disagree with what you have said here, but these ideas form only a part of the picture from an LDS point of view. A very important piece of that puzzle is the notion that Jesus was in fact Jehovah in the old testament.

What is the scripture for that belief? I seem to recall you posting something that wasn't very conclusive IMO.

Which of my conclusions were you addressing? As far as my belief about God being more than a spirit, I briefly listed several scriptures which taken literally (correctly IMO) indicate that both Jesus and His Father have bodies of flesh and bone. In post 64 I detailed some analysis as to why Jesus is Jehovah. For example in Rev. 22:6,16 the angel presenting the vision to John is sent by who?

6. And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets [Jehovah] sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.
16. I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.




​

What specifically do you feel was weak about the scriptures I have provided, or rather my understanding of them?

I believe he is the son of God and that there is only one god, god the father. I do not believe Jesus is God, except he is elohym in the same way we are elohym.
That would be polythiesm if god the father is one god and yhwh is another god.

Our definitions of the words polytheism and monotheism are of relatively recent origin. How do you know that the interpretations you ascribe to the OT are the same as they were understood 3000 years ago? Or even 2000 years ago? Many scholars now consider the monotheism of early Israel to have been a system where one head God ruled over many other Gods. Margaret Barker documented the process by which YHWH became the prominent God of Israel. Another work was published by Mark S. Smith called The Origins of Biblical Monotheism: Israel's Polytheistic Background and the Ugaritic Texts. Among his conclusions are that 1) Our words monotheism and polytheism do not reflect the complexity of belief in the ancient world. 2) Various polytheisms existed in ancient Israel, as has been inferred in Psalm 82 and Deut 32. 2) El may have been the original deity worshiped by Israelites at the time of the exodus, but Yahweh emerged and absorbed El. 3) Israelites de-emphasized the other deities in the pantheon under Yahweh, and Yahweh increasingly appeared as the divine bureaucratic lord over the other gods. 4) Israelite monotheism was rhetoric designed to describe Israel's exclusive relationship with Yahweh, it was not pure monotheism (for such pure monotheism is really our modern intellectual construct). [I haven't read Smith's book, but it is reviewed and lightly summarized here by Robert Gnuse of Loyola University]

examine the evidence. They left a paper trail . I do not consider that most were unsaved au contraire I believe most were born again. So not everything they say is wrong, Just as today not everything any christian says is totally right or totally wrong., . It's like today, some christians are more influenced by worldly beliefs than others. some christians are more influenced by feminism than others and it is reflected in their writings. it is no difficult task to recognise the influence of feminism in a bible that is so called 'gender friendly'. It is no difficult task to recognise the influence of neo platonism in the writings of the so called early church fathers. we should use the same standards for judging what so called early church fathers wrote that we use for judging what modern day christians say.

What standards are those? IMO, your claim to be able to identify by inspection which doctrines are of apostolic origin and which are man-made philosophies is just as subjective as any of the examples you have presented. I don't really see an answer to my question in your response. What guarantee do you feel you have given that the Bible was compiled by the very men you indict as having a flawed understanding of some doctrines? Would they not have rejected any document contradicting their notion of truth?

The paper trail shows evidence of both consensus and dispute. Documents that were most popular were the ones that were selected for inclusion. Is popularity an infallible rule? I think that books were left out is a much more significant possibility than that untrue books were let in (Indeed, I hold all of the books to be true).

 

[Godfixated]

Do you have scripture to back this up?

I see the same old, same old, same old, anti-Trinity nonsense. Ignore/reject everything that has been posted, offer nothing in rebuttal.

John 1:1, 1:14, 1:18, and several other passages, make him God.

You are free to believe anything you want. But you are deluding yourself if you think you have proven anything. Repeating "Neener, neener, neener that doesn't make him god," over an over again means absolutely nothing.

That is all your private interpretation and that doesn't make it true. All you have to fall back on is tradition and we should all know what Jesus Christ has said about tradition, "Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying, Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread. But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?" This passage is from Matthew 15 and it can easily apply to the modern church. It is only tradition that says that Jesus Christ is God, but if you actually read the Word objectively and letting the Word interpreting itself, you will come to the realization that Jesus Christ is not God.