trinity question

[Der Alte]

While, I applaud your effort, .............................................................................................. As I know there is alot of info, but it requires alot of info to be presented

I think there were a lot of unusupported assertions in this post, and many empty assertions about what scripture means and does not mean, but I am not sure, I could not read this jumbled together mess.

Before you presume to lecture me on what the Biblical languages mean and do not mean, I first learned to speak Greek more than 4 decades ago, and I studied both Biblical languages at the post grad level more than 2 1/2 decades ago. I have BAGD, TDNT, Louw-Nida, sitting on my bookshelf and have Thayer, Vincent, and Robertson on my PC. And I have three copies of the early church fathers, all of which support the views I posted.

I have seen nothing from you but empty assertions, and bloviation. Verses that call Jesus God?

[c]Jesus is Yahweh:
Examining the NT Use of OT Passages to Demonstrate
The Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ
Sam Shamoun[/c]

As any Bible-believing Christian already knows (assuming that he has actually carefully studied the entirety of Scriptures) the NT writers often apply OT passages which speak of certain characteristics or acts of Yahweh to the Lord Jesus. The only logical conclusion one can arrive at is that the NT writers clearly believed that the Lord Jesus Christ was the incarnation of Yahweh God, i.e. they believed that Yahweh God Almighty had become an actual human being in the historical person of the Lord Jesus.

In this article, we will present a host of the OT citations regarding the nature and works of Yahweh which are either quoted or alluded by the NT authors in connection with the Lord Jesus. We will also address an objection which is often raised by anti-Trinitarians in trying to deny that the NT writers believed that Jesus was the visible manifestation of Yahweh. We will then conclude with a short summary.

YAHWEH

“Abraham planted a tamarisk tree in Beersheba and called there on the name of Yahweh, the Everlasting God.” Genesis 21:33

“Into your hand I commit my spirit; you have redeemed me, O Yahweh, faithful God.” Psalm 31:5

“And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of Yahweh shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as Yahweh has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom Yahweh calls.” Joel 2:32

JESUS

“And as they were stoning Stephen, he called out, ‘Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.’ And falling to his knees he cried out with a loud voice, ‘Lord, do not hold this sin against them.’ And when he had said this, he fell asleep.’” Acts 7:59-60

“Now there was a disciple at Damascus named Ananias. The Lord said to him in a vision, ‘Ananias.’ And he said, ‘Here I am, Lord.’ And the Lord said to him, ‘Rise and go to the street called Straight, and at the house of Judas look for a man of Tarsus named Saul, for behold, he is praying, and he has seen in a vision a man named Ananias come in and lay his hands on him so that he might regain his sight.’ But Ananias answered, ‘Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much evil he has done to your saints at Jerusalem. And here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call on your name’… So Ananias departed and entered the house. And laying his hands on him he said, ‘Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus who appeared to you on the road by which you came has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit’… And all who heard him were amazed and said, ‘Is not this the man who made havoc in Jerusalem of those who called upon this name? And has he not come here for this purpose, to bring them bound before the chief priests?’” Acts 9:10-14, 17, 21

“because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. For the Scripture says, ‘Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.’ For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For ‘everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’” Romans 10:9-13

“To the church of God that is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints together with all those who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both their Lord and ours:” 1 Corinthians 1:2

YAHWEH

“Yahweh is my strength and my song, and he has become my salvation; this is my God, and I will praise him, my father's God, and I will exalt him.” Exodus 15:2

“Salvation belongs to Yahweh; your blessing be on your people!” Psalm 3:8

“For God alone my soul waits in silence; from him comes my salvation.” Psalm 62:1

“Yahweh is my strength and my song; he has become my salvation… I thank you that you have answered me and have become my salvation.” Psalm 118:14, 21

JESUS

“For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the founder of their salvation perfect through suffering.” Hebrews 2:10

“And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him,” Hebrews 5:9

“and crying out with a loud voice, ‘Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!’” Revelation 7:10

YAHWEH

“You are to speak to the people of Israel and say, ‘Above all you shall keep my Sabbaths, for this is a sign between me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I, Yahweh, sanctify you.’” Exodus 31:13

“Declare and present your case; let them take counsel together! Who told this long ago? Who declared it of old? Was it not I, Yahweh? And there is no other god besides me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none besides me. Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other. By myself I have sworn; from my mouth has gone out in righteousness a word that shall not return: To me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear allegiance. Only in Yahweh, it shall be said of me, are righteousness and strength; to him shall come and be ashamed all who were incensed against him. In Yahweh all the offspring of Israel shall be justified and shall glory.” Isaiah 45:21-25

“Then the nations will know that I am Yahweh who sanctifies Israel, when my sanctuary is in their midst forevermore.” Ezekiel 37:28

JESUS

“to open their eyes, so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.” Acts 26:18

“He is the source of your life in Christ Jesus, whom God made our wisdom and our righteousness and sanctification and redemption.” 1 Corinthians 1:30

“And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.” 1 Corinthians 6:11

“Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.” Philippians 2:9-11

“For he who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one origin. That is why he is not ashamed to call them brothers,” Hebrews 2:11

“And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.” Hebrews 10:10

“Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:” 2 Peter 1:1

YAHWEH

“And he said, ‘My presence will go with you, and I will give you rest.’ And he said to him, ‘If your presence will not go with me, do not bring us up from here.’” Exodus 33:14-15

JESUS

“Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.” Matthew 11:28-30

YAHWEH

“loving the LORD your God, obeying his voice and holding fast to him, for he is your life and length of days, that you may dwell in the land that the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.” Deuteronomy 30:20

JESUS

“For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.” Colossians 3:3-4

YAHWEH

“See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand.” Deuteronomy 32:39

“Also henceforth I am he; there is none who can deliver from my hand; I work, and who can turn it back?” Isaiah 43:13

JESUS

“I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one.” John 10:28-30

YAHWEH

“Because of your promise, and according to your own heart, you have brought about all this greatness, to make your servant know it. Therefore you are great, O Yahweh God. For there is none like you, and there is no God besides you, according to all that we have heard with our ears. And who is like your people Israel, the one nation on earth whom God went to redeem to be his people, making himself a name and doing for them great and awesome things by driving out before your people, whom you redeemed for yourself from Egypt, a nation and its gods? And you established for yourself your people Israel to be your people forever. And you, O LORD, became their God.” 2 Samuel 7:21-24

“They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols and their detestable things, or with any of their transgressions. But I will save them from all the backslidings in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them; and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.” Ezekiel 37:24

JESUS

“waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.” Titus 2:11-14

YAHWEH

“The Spirit of Yahweh speaks by me; his word is on my tongue.” 2 Samuel 23:2

“You gave your good Spirit to instruct them and did not withhold your manna from their mouth and gave them water for their thirst… Many years you bore with them and warned them by your Spirit through your prophets. Yet they would not give ear. Therefore you gave them into the hand of the peoples of the lands.” Nehemiah 9:20, 30

JESUS

“Concerning this salvation, the prophets who prophesied about the grace that was to be yours searched and inquired carefully, inquiring what person or time the Spirit of Christ in them was indicating when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the subsequent glories. It was revealed to them that they were serving not themselves but you, in the things that have now been announced to you through those who preached the good news to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, things into which angels long to look.” 1 Peter 1:10-12

YAHWEH

“For you are my lamp, O Yahweh, and my God lightens my darkness.” 2 Samuel 22:29

“I will make a covenant of peace with them. It shall be an everlasting covenant with them. And I will set them in their land and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in their midst forevermore. My dwelling place shall be with them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Then the nations will know that I am the LORD who sanctifies Israel, when my sanctuary is in their midst forevermore.” Ezekiel 37:26-28

JESUS

“And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb. And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb. By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it,” Revelation 21:22-24

YAHWEH

“And you, Solomon my son, know the God of your father and serve him with a whole heart and with a willing mind, for Yahweh searches all hearts and understands every plan and thought. If you seek him, he will be found by you, but if you forsake him, he will cast you off forever.” 1 Chronicles 28:9

“But, O Yahweh of hosts, who judges righteously, who tests the heart and the mind, let me see your vengeance upon them, for to you have I committed my cause.” Jeremiah 11:20

“I Yahweh search the heart and test the mind, to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his deeds.” Jeremiah 17:10

JESUS

“Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.” 1 Corinthians 4:5

According to Paul, the Lord that is coming is none other than the Lord Jesus Christ:

“so that you are not lacking in any spiritual gift, as you wait for the revealing of our Lord Jesus Christ, who will sustain you to the end, guiltless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.” 1 Corinthians 1:7-8

“And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write: ‘The words of the Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and whose feet are like burnished bronze. I know your works, your love and faith and service and patient endurance, and that your latter works exceed the first… and I will strike her children dead. And all the churches will know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you as your works deserve.’” Revelation 2:18-19, 23​

 

[Der Alte]

More verses calling Jesus God.

According to Paul, the Lord that is coming is none other than the Lord Jesus Christ:

“so that you are not lacking in any spiritual gift, as you wait for the revealing of our Lord Jesus Christ, who will sustain you to the end, guiltless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.” 1 Corinthians 1:7-8

“And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write: ‘The words of the Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and whose feet are like burnished bronze. I know your works, your love and faith and service and patient endurance, and that your latter works exceed the first… and I will strike her children dead. And all the churches will know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you as your works deserve.’” Revelation 2:18-19, 23

YAHWEH

“For the eyes of Yahweh range throughout the earth to strengthen those whose hearts are fully committed to him. You have done a foolish thing, and from now on you will be at war.” 2 Chronicles 16:9

“Yahweh is in his holy temple; Yahweh’s throne is in heaven; his eyes see, his eyelids test, the children of man.” Psalm 11:4

“So he said to me, ‘This is the word of Yahweh to Zerubbabel: 'Not by might nor by power, but by my Spirit,' says Yahweh of hosts… Who despises the day of small things? Men will rejoice when they see the plumb line in the hand of Zerubbabel. (These seven are the eyes of Yahweh, which range throughout the earth.)” Zechariah 4:6, 10

JESUS

“To the angel of the church in Sardis write: These are the words of him who holds the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead.” Revelation 3:1

“Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing in the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. He had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth.” Revelation 5:6

YAHWEH

“You are Yahweh, you alone. You have made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them; and you preserve all of them; and the host of heaven worships you.” Nehemiah 9:6

JESUS

“For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.” Colossians 1:16-17

“but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,” Hebrews 1:2-3

YAHWEH

“O Yahweh, our Lord, how majestic is your name in all the earth! You have set your glory above the heavens. Out of the mouth of babes and infants, you have established strength because of your foes, to still the enemy and the avenger.” Psalm 8:1-2

JESUS

“But when the chief priests and the scribes saw the wonderful things that he did, and the children crying out in the temple, ‘Hosanna to the Son of David!’ they were indignant, and they said to him, ‘Do you hear what these are saying?’ And Jesus said to them, ‘Yes; have you never read, “Out of the mouth of infants and nursing babies you have prepared praise”?’” Matthew 21:15-16

YAHWEH

“Lift up your heads, O gates! And be lifted up, O ancient doors, that the King of glory may come in. Who is this King of glory? Yahweh, strong and mighty, Yahweh, mighty in battle! Lift up your heads, O gates! And lift them up, O ancient doors, that the King of glory may come in. Who is this King of glory? Yahweh of hosts, he is the King of glory! Selah” Psalm 24:7-10

“And I will be to her a wall of fire all around, declares Yahweh, and I will be the glory in her midst.” Zechariah 2:5

JESUS

“None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.” 1 Corinthians 2:8

“My brothers, show no partiality as you hold the faith in our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory.” James 2:1

YAHWEH

“Oh, taste and see that Yahweh is good! Blessed is the man who takes refuge in him!” Psalm 34:8

“But the LORD of hosts, him you shall regard as holy. Let him be your fear, and let him be your dread. And he will become a sanctuary and a stone of offense and a rock of stumbling to both houses of Israel, a trap and a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.” Isaiah 8:13-14

JESUS

“if indeed you have tasted that the Lord is good. As you come to him, a living stone rejected by men but in the sight of God chosen and precious, you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. For it stands in Scripture: ‘Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a cornerstone chosen and precious, and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.’ So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe, ‘The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,’ and ‘A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense.’ They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.” 1 Peter 2:3-8

“but in your hearts regard Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you.” 1 Peter 3:15

YAHWEH

“Come and hear, all you who fear God, and I will tell what he has done for my soul.” Psalm 66:16

JESUS

“‘Return to your home, and declare how much God has done for you.’ And he went away, proclaiming throughout the whole city how much Jesus had done for him.” Luke 8:39

YAHWEH

“Once God has spoken; twice have I heard this: that power belongs to God, and that to you, O Lord, belongs steadfast love. For you will render to a man according to his work. Psalm 62:11-12

“Behold, the Lord Yahweh comes with might, and his arm rules for him; behold, his reward is with him, and his recompense before him. He will tend his flock like a shepherd; he will gather the lambs in his arms; he will carry them in his bosom, and gently lead those that are with young.” Isaiah 40:10-11

“Behold, Yahweh has proclaimed to the end of the earth: Say to the daughter of Zion, ‘Behold, your salvation comes; behold, his reward is with him, and his recompense before him.’” Isaiah 62:11

JESUS

“For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done.” Matthew 16:27

“I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep… I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.” John 10:11, 14-16

“‘Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay everyone for what he has done’… He who testifies to these things says, ‘Surely I am coming soon.’ Amen. Come, Lord Jesus!” Revelation 22:12, 20

YAHWEH

“You ascended on high, leading a host of captives in your train and receiving gifts among men, even among the rebellious, that Yahweh God may dwell there.” Psalm 68:18

“Am I a God at hand, declares Yahweh, and not a God afar off? Can a man hide himself in secret places so that I cannot see him? declares Yahweh. Do I not fill heaven and earth? declares Yahweh.” Jeremiah 23:23-24

JESUS

“But grace was given to each one of us according to the measure of Christ's gift. Therefore it says, ‘When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men.’ (In saying, ‘He ascended,’ what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is the one who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.)” Ephesians 4:7-10

YAHWEH

“Your word, O Yahweh, is eternal; it stands firm in the heavens.” Psalm 119:89

“The grass withers and the flowers fall, but the word of our God stands forever.” Isaiah 40:8

JESUS

“Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.” Mark 13:31- cf. Matthew 24:35

YAHWEH

“O Israel, hope in Yahweh! For with Yahweh there is steadfast love, and with him is plentiful redemption. And he will redeem Israel from all his iniquities.” Psalm 130:7-8

“Say to those who have an anxious heart, ‘Be strong; fear not! Behold, your God will come with vengeance, with the recompense of God. He will come and save you.’” Isaiah 35:4

JESUS

“‘She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.’ All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet: ‘Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall call his name Immanuel’ (which means, God with us).” Matthew 1:21-23

http://www.forananswer.org/Top_JW/JesusJehovah.htm​

 

[Der Alte]

Yet more verses that call Jesus God.

YAHWEH

“‘O my God,’ I say, ‘take me not away in the midst of my days-you whose years endure throughout all generations!’ Of old you laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. They will perish, but you will remain; they will all wear out like a garment. You will change them like a robe, and they will pass away, but you are the same, and your years have no end.” Psalm 102:24-27

JESUS

“But of the Son he says… And, ‘You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands; they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment, like a robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end.’” Hebrews 1:8a, 10-12

YAHWEH

“And it came to pass in the year in which king Ozias died, that I saw the Lord [eidon ton kurion] sitting on a high and exalted throne, and the house was full of his glory [tees doxees autou]. And seraphs stood round about him: each one had six wings: and with two they covered their face, and with two they covered their feet, and with two they flew. And one cried to the other, and they said, Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory [tees doxees autou]’. And the lintel shook at the voice they uttered, and the house was filled with smoke. And I said, Woe is me, for I am pricked to the heart; for being a man, and having unclean lips, I dwell in the midst of a people having unclean lips; and I have seen with mine eyes the King, the Lord of hosts… And I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go to this people? And I said, behold, I am here, send me. And he said, Go, and say to this people, Ye shall hear indeed, but ye shall not understand; and ye shall see indeed, but ye shall not perceive. For the heart of this people has become gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.” Isaiah 6:1-5, 8-10 LXX

JESUS

“Even after Jesus had done all these miraculous signs in their presence, they still would not believe in him. This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet: ‘Lord, who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?’ For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere: ‘He has blinded their eyes and deadened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn-and I would heal them.’ Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus' glory [eiden teen doxan autou] and spoke about.” John 12:37-41

In a footnote, the translators of the NET Bible state:

88 tn Grk “his”; the referent (Christ) has been specified in the translation for clarity. The referent supplied here is “Christ” rather than “Jesus” because it involves what Isaiah saw. It is clear that the author presents Isaiah as having seen the preincarnate glory of Christ, which was the very revelation of the Father (see John 1:18; John 14:9).

sn Because he saw Christ’s glory. The glory which Isaiah saw in Isa 6:3 was the glory of Yahweh (typically rendered as “Lord” in the OT). Here John speaks of the prophet seeing the glory of Christ since in the next clause and spoke about him, “him” can hardly refer to Yahweh, but must refer to Christ. On the basis of statements like 1:14 in the prologue, the author probably put no great distinction between the two. Since the author presents Jesus as fully God (cf. John 1:1), it presents no problem to him to take words originally spoken by Isaiah of Yahweh himself and apply them to Jesus. (http://www.bible.org/netbible/joh12_notes.htm#1288)

YAHWEH

“Who has performed and done this, calling the generations from the beginning? I, Yahweh, the first, and with the last; I am he.” Isaiah 41:4

“Thus says Yahweh, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, Yahweh of hosts: ‘I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god.” Isaiah 44:6

“Listen to me, O Jacob, and Israel, whom I called! I am he; I am the first, and I am the last.” Isaiah 48:12

JESUS

“When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, ‘Fear not, I am the first and the last, and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.’” Revelation 1:17-18

“And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: ‘The words of the first and the last, who died and came to life.’” Revelation 2:8

“Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay everyone for what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.” Revelation 22:12-13

YAHWEH

“‘You are my witnesses,’ declares Yahweh, ‘and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me.’” Isaiah 43:10

JESUS

“But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.” Acts 1:8

YAHWEH

“I am Yahweh; that is my name; my glory I give to no other, nor my praise to carved idols.” Isaiah 42:8

“For my own sake, for my own sake, I do it, for how should my name be profaned? My glory I will not give to another.” Isaiah 48:11

JESUS

“And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed… Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world.” John 17:5, 24

YAHWEH

“for my people have committed two evils: they have forsaken me, the fountain of living waters,
and hewed out cisterns for themselves, broken cisterns that can hold no water.” Jeremiah 2:13

JESUS

“On the last day of the feast, the great day, Jesus stood up and cried out, ‘If anyone thirsts, let him come to me and drink. Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, “Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.”’” John 7:37-38

YAHWEH

“Thus says Yahweh: ‘Cursed is the man who trusts in man and makes flesh his strength, whose heart turns away from Yahweh. He is like a shrub in the desert, and shall not see any good come. He shall dwell in the parched places of the wilderness, in an uninhabited salt land. Blessed is the man who trusts in Yahweh, whose trust is Yahweh. He is like a tree planted by water, that sends out its roots by the stream, and does not fear when heat comes, for its leaves remain green, and is not anxious in the year of drought, for it does not cease to bear fruit.’” Jeremiah 17:5-8

JESUS

“Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me.” John 14:1

“which is why I suffer as I do. But I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed, and I am convinced that he is able to guard until that Day what has been entrusted to me.” 2 Timothy 1:12

YAHWEH

“And behold, the glory of the God of Israel was coming from the east. And the sound of his coming was like the sound of many waters, and the earth shone with his glory.” Ezekiel 43:2

“As I looked, thrones were placed, and the Ancient of days took his seat; his clothing was white as snow, and the hair of his head like pure wool; his throne was fiery flames; its wheels were burning fire. A stream of fire issued and came out from before him; a thousand thousands served him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him; the court sat in judgment, and the books were opened.” Daniel 7:9-10

“I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven there came one like a son of man, and he came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before him. And to him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom one that shall not be destroyed.” Daniel 7:13-14

JESUS

“Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking to me, and on turning I saw seven golden lampstands, and in the midst of the lampstands one like a son of man, clothed with a long robe and with a golden sash around his chest. The hairs of his head were white like wool, as white as snow. His eyes were like a flame of fire, his feet were like burnished bronze, refined in a furnace, and his voice was like the roar of many waters. In his right hand he held seven stars, from his mouth came a sharp two-edged sword, and his face was like the sun shining in full strength. When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, ‘Fear not, I am the first and the last, and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.’” Revelation 1:12-18

http://www.forananswer.org/Top_JW/JesusJehovah.htm​

 

[Der Alte]

Still more verses that show that Jesus is God. And this is not all.

YAHWEH

“For I Yahweh do not change; therefore you, O children of Jacob, are not consumed.” Malachi 3:6

JESUS

“Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.” Hebrews 13:8

In light of the foregoing, is it any wonder that the Church from its inception believed that the Lord Jesus Christ is Yahweh God Almighty?

AN OBJECTION CONSIDERED

It is unfortunate that there are many groups that claim to believe in the Holy Bible and yet deny the position taken here regarding Jesus being Yahweh God. They assert that the NT applying OT passages that speak of the functions and characteristics of Yahweh to Jesus does not prove that the latter is Yahweh God Almighty.

They seek to undermine the identification of Jesus with Yahweh by turning to places in the NT where OT citations referring to specific individuals or groups are applied to others. Case in point:

“For to which of the angels did God ever say, ‘You are my Son, today I have begotten you’? Or again, ‘I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son’?” Hebrews 1:5

Here, the inspired author applies a passage to Jesus which initially referred to Solomon:

“… Moreover, Yahweh declares to you that Yahweh will make you a house. When your days are fulfilled and you lie down with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring after you, who shall come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son. When he commits iniquity, I will discipline him with the rod of men, with the stripes of the sons of men, but my steadfast love will not depart from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away from before you.” 2 Samuel 7:11b-15

According to 1 Chronicles 28:6 this son was Solomon:

“He said to me, ‘It is Solomon your son who shall build my house and my courts, for I have chosen him to be my son, and I will be his father.’”

“This is he of whom it is written, ‘Behold, I send my messenger before your face, who will prepare your way before you.’ Truly, I say to you, among those born of women there has arisen no one greater than John the Baptist. Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven has suffered violence, and the violent take it by force. For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John, and if you are willing to accept it, he is Elijah who is to come. He who has ears to hear, let him hear. Matthew 11:11-15

The anti-Trinitarian seeks to demonstrate from this that the Trinitarian hasn’t proven his case regarding Jesus being Yahweh God. They claim that if Jesus is Yahweh God solely because the NT applies Yahweh passages to the Lord Jesus, then this means that Jesus is Solomon since a passage initially referring to the latter is applied to the former. This would also mean that John the Baptist was actually Elijah.

The anti-Trinitarian then reasons from this that the methodology used by Trinitarians to arrive at their belief in the deity of Christ is biblically inconsistent and invalid.

The confusion here should be apparent to the reader. It is obvious that the preceding examples do not mean that Jesus is Solomon or that John the Baptist was Elijah. Rather, the application of these passages show that Jesus and John share certain characteristics or functions with Solomon and Elijah; yet these characteristics are not unique to either Solomon or Elijah. For instance, Solomon is called God’s son due to his being chosen to rule over Israel. Yet this intimate relationship was not something unique to Solomon, since all of the Davidic kings enjoyed filial relations with God, much like their father David:

“Of old you spoke in a vision to your godly one, and said: ‘I have granted help to one who is mighty; I have exalted one chosen from the people. I have found David, my servant; with my holy oil I have anointed him’… He shall cry to me, ‘You are my Father, my God, and the Rock of my salvation.’ And I will make him the firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth.” Psalm 89:19-20, 26-27

In fact, this same Psalm goes on to apply the warning given to Solomon in case he sins to all of David’s royal offspring:

“My steadfast love I will keep for him forever, and my covenant will stand firm for him. I will establish his offspring forever and his throne as the days of the heavens. If his children forsake my law and do not walk according to my rules, if they violate my statutes and do not keep my commandments, then I will punish their transgression with the rod and their iniquity with stripes, but I will not remove from him my steadfast love or be false to my faithfulness. I will not violate my covenant or alter the word that went forth from my lips. Once for all I have sworn by my holiness; I will not lie to David. His offspring shall endure forever, his throne as long as the sun before me. Like the moon it shall be established forever, a faithful witness in the skies.” Selah Psalm 89:28-37

Therefore, for Hebrews to apply to Christ a passage originally referring to Solomon doesn’t mean that Jesus is Solomon since the characteristics that are mentioned are not unique to Solomon. All the Davidic kings shared them.

In the case of John and Elijah, the latter was to be given the privilege of preparing the way for the coming of the Messiah, on honor which was bestowed on John also. It is in this sense that John is considered to be Elijah since he heralded the Messiah, the very thing that Elijah is suppose to do. The similarity is one of function, not one of identity.

But these examples are in no way parallel with the Yahweh passages due to the fact that these citations all focus on characteristics that distinguish Yahweh from all creation and from every other so-called god. Unlike the examples of Solomon and Elijah, the NT writers apply passages to Jesus that speak of the unique characteristics and functions of Yahweh. In other words, the NT writers claim that Jesus performs the works and has the very same attributes that are only true of Yahweh; no one else shares these characteristics or is able to perform these works. Hence, the similarities are not simply that of shared characteristics that others may also share in, but of identity since Jesus does those very things and has the same attributes which identify one as Yahweh God Almighty.

Here is an example of what we mean:

1. According to the OT, Yahweh alone created and sustains all things. Cf. Job 9:8; Isaiah 44:24; Nehemiah 9:6

2. According to the NT, Jesus created and sustains all things. Cf. John 1:3, 10; Colossians 1:16-17; Hebrews 1:2-3, 10-12

3. Therefore, Jesus is Yahweh God.

Again:

1. According to the OT, Yahweh is immutable in contrast to creation which is mutable. Cf. Psalm 102:25-27; Malachi 3:6

2. According to the NT, Jesus is immutable. Cf. Hebrews 1:10-12; 13:8

3. Therefore, Jesus is Yahweh God.

The foregoing shows that the attempt to deny Jesus’ identification with Yahweh is based on a faulty approach which does nothing to undermine the Trinitarian position. It only exposes the logical fallacies of those who will not allow the Bible to speak for itself, but seek to read their unbiblical traditions and erroneous views into the text of Holy Scripture.

CONCLUSION

The evidence presented in this article conclusively demonstrates that the NT writers believed the Lord Jesus was none other than Yahweh God in the flesh. The NT documents also show that the Father and the Holy Spirit are fully divine, and that these three are distinct persons. It is little wonder that the early Church was forced to formulate the doctrine of the Trinity since this is the only logical conclusion one can arrive at from a careful analysis and correct reading of the Holy Scriptures.

http://www.forananswer.org/Top_JW/JesusJehovah.htm​

 

[Der Alte]

In addition to all this the entire early church in the first 2-3 centuries, taught from the scriptures that Jesus was God. As I said before, even the disciples of John, the apostle, and Ireneaus a disciple of Polycarp, a disciple of John. But hey, the entire church got it wrong and only you got it right altho you couldn't parse a Greek verb if your life depended on it. Right?

Ignatius, Epistle to the Magnesians, disciple of John the apostle. [30-107 AD]

He, being begotten by the Father before the beginning of time, was God the Word, the only-begotten Son, and remains the same for ever; for “of His kingdom there shall be no end,” says Daniel the prophet. …

Ignatius, Epistle to the Trallians

And God the Word was truly born of the Virgin, having clothed Himself with a body of like passions with our own. He who forms all men in the womb, was Himself really in the womb, and made for Himself a body of the seed of the Virgin, but without any intercourse of man. Since, also, there is but one unbegotten Being, God, even the Father; and one only-begotten Son, God, the Word and man; . . .

Ignatius, Epistle to the Philadelphians

If any one confesses these things, and that God the Word did dwell in a human body, being within it as the Word, . . .

Ignatius, Epistle to the Smyrneans

our Lord Jesus Christ, that He was the Son of God, “the firstborn of every creature,” God the Word, the only-begotten Son, and was of the seed of David according to the flesh, . . .

Ignatius, Epistle to the Tarsians

. . .He who was born of a woman was the Son of God, and He that was crucified was “the first-born of every creature,” and God the Word, who also created all things.

How could such a one be a mere man, receiving the beginning of His existence from Mary, and not 210 rather God the Word, and the only-begotten Son? For “in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

Ignatius, Epistle to the Philippians

And again, “Hath not one God created us? Have we not all one Father? And there is also one Son, God the Word. For “the only-begotten Son,” saith [the Scripture], “who is in the bosom of the Father.” …

... For “the Word became flesh.” For “Wisdom builded for herself a house.” And God the Word was born as man, with a body, of the Virgin, without any intercourse of man.

Justin - Dialogue with Trypho - [110-165 AD]

God begat before all creatures a Beginning, [who was] a certain rational power [proceeding] from Himself, who is called by the Holy Spirit, now the Glory of the Lord, now the Son, again Wisdom, again an Angel, then God, and then Lord and Logos;

“And that Christ being Lord, and God the Son of God, and appearing formerly in power as Man, and Angel, and in the glory of fire as at the bush, . . .

Irenaeus - Against Heresies Book 1 [120-202 AD] - Disciple of Polycarp, a disciple of John

Very properly, then, did he say, “In the beginning was the Word,” for He was in the Son; “and the Word was with God,” for He was the beginning; “and the Word was God,” of course, for that which is begotten of God is God. “The same was in the beginning with God” …

Irenaeus - Against Heresies - Book 2

Him who is God over all, since He is all Nous, and all Logos, … and has in Himself nothing more ancient or late than another, and nothing at variance with another, but continues altogether equal, and similar, and homogeneous, … He is all intelligence, and all word, . . .He is intelligence, in that also He is word, and that this Nous is His Logos, . . . And in what respect will the Word of God — yea, rather God Himself, since He is the Word . . .

Chap 17 Father of all is not to be regarded as a kind of compound Being, who 762 can be separated from his Nous (mind), as I have already shown; but Nous is the Father, and the Father Nous… he who springs from Him as Logos, or rather that Nous himself, since he is Logos, must be perfect and impassible,… they are of the same substance with himself, should be perfect and impassible, …

Irenaeus - Against Heresies - Book 3

For inasmuch as the Word of God was man from the root of Jesse, and son of Abraham, in this respect did the Spirit of God rest upon Him, and anoint Him to preach the Gospel to the lowly. But inasmuch as He was God, He did not judge according to glory, nor reprove after the manner of speech.

Irenaeus - Against Heresies - Book 4

And through the Word Himself who had been made visible and palpable, was the Father shown forth, … all saw the Father in the Son: for the Father is the invisible of the Son, but the Son the visible of the Father. And for this reason all spake with Christ when He was present [upon earth], and they named Him God.

He, therefore, who was known, was not a different being from Him who declared “No man knoweth the Father,” but one and the same, the Father making all things subject to Him; while He received testimony from all that He was very man, and that He was very God, from the Father, from the Spirit, . . .

For the true God did confess the commandment of the law as the word of God, and called no one else God besides His own Father.

Theophilus To Autolycus - Book 2 - [115 -181 AD]

In like manner also the three days which were before the luminaries, are types of the Trinity, of God, and His Word, and His wisdom.

Hear what I say. The God and Father, indeed, of all cannot be contained, and is not
found in a place, for there is no place of His rest; but His Word, through whom He made all things, being His power and His wisdom, assuming the person of the Father and Lord of all, went to the garden in the person of God, and conversed with Adam.

The Word, then, being God, and being naturally produced from God, whenever the Father of the universe wills, He sends Him to any place; and He, coming, is both heard and seen, being sent by Him, and is found in a place.

Clement of Alexandria - Exhortation To The Heathen - [153 - 217 AD]

Well, inasmuch as the Word was from the first, He was and is the divine source of all things; but inasmuch as He has now assumed the name Christ, consecrated of old, and worthy of power, he has been called by me the New Song. This Word, then, the Christ, the cause of both our being at first (for He was in God) and of our well-being, this very Word has now appeared as man, He alone being both, God and man.

He, who is in Him that truly is, has appeared; for the Word, who “was with God,” and by whom all things were created, has appeared as our Teacher. The Word, who in the beginning bestowed on us life as Creator when He formed us, taught us to live well when He appeared as our Teacher; that as God He might afterwards conduct us to the life which never ends.

If it is thy wish, be thou also initiated; and thou shalt join the choir along with angels around the unbegotten and indestructible and the only true God, the Word of God, raising the hymn with us. This Jesus, who is eternal, the one great High Priest of the one God, and of His Father, prays for and exhorts men.

Clement of Alexandria - The Instructor

God in the form of man, stainless, the minister of His Father’s will, the Word who is God, who is in the Father, who is at the Father’s right hand, and with the form of God is God.

Address Of Tatian To The Greeks – [110-172 AD]

God was in the beginning; but the beginning, we have been taught, is the power of the Logos. . . .And by His simple will the Logos springs forth; and the Logos, not coming forth in vain, becomes the first-begotten work of the Father. Him (the Logos) we know to be the beginning of the world. But He came into being by participation, not by abscission;

Chapter XXI.-Doctrines of the Christians and Greeks Respecting God Compared.

We do not act as fools, O Greeks, nor utter idle tales, when we announce that God was born in the form of a man.

A Plea For The Christians By Athenagoras The Athenian: [c.120- 180]

. . . But the Son of God is the Logos of the Father, in idea and in operation; for after the pattern of Him and by Him were all things made, the Father and the Son being one. . . .Who, then, would not be astonished to hear men who speak of God the Father, and of God the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, and who declare both their power in union and their distinction in order, called atheists?

…that they know God and His Logos, what is the oneness of the Son with the Father, what the communion of the Father with the Son, what is the Spirit, what is the unity of these three, the Spirit, the Son, the Father, and their distinction in unity; and who know 255 that the life for which we look is far better than can be described in words,

The Epistle Of Mathetes To Diognetus [c. 130 AD]

…but truly God Himself, who is almighty, the Creator of all things, and invisible, has sent from heaven, and placed among men, [Him who is] the truth, and the holy and incomprehensible Word, and has firmly established Him in their hearts … but the very Creator and Fashioner of all things-by whom He made the heavens-by whom he enclosed the sea within its proper bounds-whose ordinances all the stars faithfully observe-from whom the sun has received the measure of his daily course to be observed -whom the moon obeys, . . . and whom the stars also obey, . . .by whom all things have been arranged, and placed within their proper limits, and to whom all are subject-the heavens and the things that are therein, the earth and the things that are therein, the sea and the things that are therein-fire, air, and the abyss-the things which are in the heights, the things which are in the depths, and the things which lie between. This [messenger] He sent to them. Was it then, as one might conceive, for the purpose of exercising tyranny, or of inspiring fear and terror? By no means, but under the influence of clemency and meekness. As a king sends his son, who is also a king, so sent He Him; as God He sent Him; as to men He sent Him; as a Saviour He sent Him, and as seeking to persuade, not to compel us; for violence has no place in the character of God....

. . .For which reason He sent the Word, that He might be manifested to the world; and He, being despised by the people [of the Jews], was, when preached by the Apostles, believed on by the Gentiles. This is He who was from the beginning, who appeared as if new, and was found old, and yet who is ever born afresh in the hearts of the saints. This is He who, being from everlasting, is to-day called the Son; through whom the Church is enriched, and grace, widely spread, increases in the saints…​

 

[2ducklow]

Where is this in the Bible? Are you saying some humans are of a different creation than others?

Jeremiah 31:22 How long wilt thou go about, O thou backsliding daughter? for the LORD hath created a new thing in the earth, A woman shall compass a man.


A new seed is a new thing.
Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Mary had seed and egg. Egg she produced naturally, her seed came from god who created it inside her.

Jas 1:18Of his own will he hath begotten us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of first-fruits of his creatures
the greek word here is Κτισματων = created thing.

WE are the first-fruits of his new creation. We are not the first-fruits of the adamic creation.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old things have passed away. Behold, all things have become new.

We are new creations because we are in Christ who is the new creation of God.

1 Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Jesus is that last adam who was made a quickening spirit, because he suceeded in the spirtual realm where the first adam has failed. That is why we have a quickening spirit now, because of Christ and only because of Christ, the new man, the second adam, the new creation of God.

the last Adam was made a quickening spirit:
by "the last Adam" is meant Jesus Christ, called Adam, because he is really and truly a man, a partaker of the same flesh and blood as the rest of mankind; and because he is the antitype of the first man Adam, who was a figure of him that was to come; and therefore called Adam, for the same reason as he is called David and Solomon: he is said to be "the last", in distinction from the first Adam, with respect to him he stood, (Nwrxa) , last upon the earth, as in (Job 19:25) to which passage some think the apostle here alludes; and because he appeared in the last days in the end of the world, and is the last that shall rise up as a common head and representative of the whole, or any part of mankind: now he is made "a quickening spirit"; which some understand of the Holy Spirit, which filled the human nature of Christ, raised him from the dead, and will quicken our mortal bodies at the last day;

Gil Commentary on 1 cor 15.45.

Which of my conclusions were you addressing? As far as my belief about God being more than a spirit, I briefly listed several scriptures which taken literally (correctly IMO) indicate that both Jesus and His Father have bodies of flesh and bone. In post 64 I detailed some analysis as to why Jesus is Jehovah. For example in Rev. 22:6,16 the angel presenting the vision to John is sent by who?

6. And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets [Jehovah] sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.
16. I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.





​

What specifically do you feel was weak about the scriptures I have provided, or rather my understanding of them?

Not convincing to me. Jesus sits at the right hand of the father and all power and authority is given unto him by the Father. Therefore, Jesus has the authority to send angels in the name of Jahweh. So that it is the same as if yahweh sent them hisself. besides the words Jesus speaks are his fathers, and the father in Jesus does the works, the miracles, the healings the sendings. When Jesus speaks God speaks in him. heb. 1.1-2. My way there is only one God, your way there are 2 gods you call a family, which in effect means you have 2 gods and thus are not monothiestic. and you contradict scripture that says god is one. Additionaly, to say God is a family is just as nonsensical as to say a husband is a family of husbands.

 

[Godfixated]

Der Alter, I read most of the verses that you presented; yet, not one of those verse even remotely hints at Jesus Christ being God. In fact, most of the verses show that there is actually address Jesus Christ and God differently.

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]Der Alter, I read most of the verses that you presented; yet, not one of those verse even remotely hints at Jesus Christ being God. In fact, most of the verses show that there is actually address Jesus Christ and God differently.[/SIZE]

Just more of your, knee jerk, "Does too. Does not. Neener, neener, neener." That is all you have added to the discussion.

Verses that directly call Jesus God.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

1:18 No man hath seen God [[size=+1]θεος[/size]/theos] at any time; the only begotten God [[size=+1]θεος[/size]/theos], which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. [correct reading based on the oldest most reliable manuscripts.]

1 Tim 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory

2 Pet 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: [Greek, Jesus Christ…the God and savior of us.]

Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; [Greek, the great God and Saviour of us, Jesus Christ]​

2 Pet 1:1 and Titus 2:13, Sharp’s rule, two nouns joined by “and”/“kai” and only the first noun has the definite article, both nouns refer to one person.

Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God [[size=+1]θεος[/size]/theos], is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. [Ps 45:6]
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God [[size=+1]θεος[/size]/theos], even thy God [[size=+1]θεος[/size]/theos], hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. [Ps 110:1]​

God calls the son God twice in this passage.

John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

28 [size=+1]και απεκριθη ο θωμας και ειπεν αυτω ο κυριος μου και ο θεος μου[/size]

Robertson Word Pictures John 20:28 {My Lord and my God} (\Ho kurios mou kai ho theos mou\). Not exclamation, but address, the vocative case though the form of the nominative, a very common thing in the Koiné‚ Thomas was wholly convinced and did not hesitate to address the Risen Christ as Lord and God. And Jesus accepts the words and praises Thomas for so doing.​

And Thomas answered, Jesus, and said unto him, Jesus, not into the air, “the Lord of me and the God of me.” Whenever a devout Jew said “the God of me” he was speaking of, or to, YHWH.

The usual argument is this was an exclamation of surprise, shock, etc. Even if such an exclamation did exist in Greek,the word in this passage is in the wrong form. Also a devout Jew would never use, “the God,” as an exclamation, and Jesus would never allow Thomas to blaspheme in that manner, without saying something.

And OBTW in reply to one of your “Neener, neener, neener” responses. The word Lord, “Adonai,” in Hebrew, is written [size=+1]אדני[/size] and the word “Adoni,” is written [size=+1]אדני[/size]. There is only one spelling. There were no vowels in Biblical Hebrew. The vowel points were added by the Masoretes well into the Christian era. There is no evidence for a pronunciation of “Adoni” prior to Christianity.

[size=+1]ככלב שׁב על־קאו כסיל שׁונה באולתו[/size]

 

[drstevej]

Great post, der alter.

 

[2ducklow]

Where beside John 1:1 (which has nothing to do with Jesus being God) does it say that Jesus Christ is God.

italics 2dl

Bible verses that show Jesus is God

italics and underline 2dl



This pretty much goes to the heart of the matter. No verse says Jesus Christ is God. The whole doctrine that Jesus Christ is God is not based on what scripture says but on interpretations of scripture. John 1.1 is interpreted to mean that Jesus is God, not that it says it, john 1.14 doesn’t say Jesus is God it is interpreted to mean that Jesus is God, John 5.18 doesn’t say “Jesus is God’ it is interpreted to mean that Jesus is God, John 5.18 doesn’t say ‘Jesus is God ‘ it is interpreted to mean ‘Jesus is God’. John 8.24 doesn’t say Jesus is God it is interpreted to mean Jesus is God, and so on down the whole list.

 

[Bananna]

1:18 No man hath seen God [[SIZE=+1]θεος[/SIZE]/theos] at any time; the only begotten God [[SIZE=+1]θεος[/SIZE]/theos], which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. [correct reading based on the oldest most reliable manuscripts.]

Please state your source that is most ancient and how you have figured out it was most reliable.

Textus Receptus
Theon oudeis eo'raken po'pote {o} monogene's {uios} o o'n eis ton kolton tou ratros ekenos exe'gsato

Two words are contested. If everyone goes and gets the manuscript they want to prove their point, then we are not looking for GOD's truth we are making our own foolishness.

Without knowing your version I cannot look up the stated purpose of the manuscript


What did John say was the purpose of the book?

Textus Receptus
John 20:31
Tauta de gegraptai ina pisteuse’te oti o ie’sous estin o Christos o uios tou theou kai ina pisteuontes zo’e’n eche’te en to’ onomati autou

KJV puts it this way
Jhn 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Most versions are similar but neglect to point out that is says life through The Name To'n onomati.
Bananna

 

[Godfixated]

Just more of your, knee jerk, "Does too. Does not. Neener, neener, neener." That is all you have added to the discussion.

Verses that directly call Jesus God.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

1:18 No man hath seen God [[SIZE=+1]θεος[/SIZE]/theos] at any time; the only begotten God [[SIZE=+1]θεος[/SIZE]/theos], which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. [correct reading based on the oldest most reliable manuscripts.]

1 Tim 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory

2 Pet 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: [Greek, Jesus Christ…the God and savior of us.]

Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; [Greek, the great God and Saviour of us, Jesus Christ]
​

2 Pet 1:1 and Titus 2:13, Sharp’s rule, two nouns joined by “and”/“kai” and only the first noun has the definite article, both nouns refer to one person.

Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God [[SIZE=+1]θεος[/SIZE]/theos], is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. [Ps 45:6]
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God [[SIZE=+1]θεος[/SIZE]/theos], even thy God [[SIZE=+1]θεος[/SIZE]/theos], hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. [Ps 110:1]
​

God calls the son God twice in this passage.

John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

28 [SIZE=+1]και απεκριθη ο θωμας και ειπεν αυτω ο κυριος μου και ο θεος μου[/SIZE]

Robertson Word Pictures John 20:28 {My Lord and my God} (\Ho kurios mou kai ho theos mou\). Not exclamation, but address, the vocative case though the form of the nominative, a very common thing in the Koiné‚ Thomas was wholly convinced and did not hesitate to address the Risen Christ as Lord and God. And Jesus accepts the words and praises Thomas for so doing.
​

And Thomas answered, Jesus, and said unto him, Jesus, not into the air, “the Lord of me and the God of me.” Whenever a devout Jew said “the God of me” he was speaking of, or to, YHWH.

The usual argument is this was an exclamation of surprise, shock, etc. Even if such an exclamation did exist in Greek,the word in this passage is in the wrong form. Also a devout Jew would never use, “the God,” as an exclamation, and Jesus would never allow Thomas to blaspheme in that manner, without saying something.

And OBTW in reply to one of your “Neener, neener, neener” responses. The word Lord, “Adonai,” in Hebrew, is written [SIZE=+1]אדני[/SIZE] and the word “Adoni,” is written [SIZE=+1]אדני[/SIZE]. There is only one spelling. There were no vowels in Biblical Hebrew. The vowel points were added by the Masoretes well into the Christian era. There is no evidence for a pronunciation of “Adoni” prior to Christianity.

[SIZE=+1]ככלב שׁב על־קאו כסיל שׁונה באולתו[/SIZE]

It is only private interpretation that you see that Jesus Christ is God in those verses. Who told you that theWord is Christ, your pastor? I'm sorry but it is not fact that Jesus is the Word in John 1:1. Adoni is a different word than Adonai. You might be trained in some languages and I'll admit, I only know English and Español, but that doesn't mean the you are right.

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]It is only private interpretation that you see that Jesus Christ is God in those verses. Who told you that theWord is Christ, your pastor? I'm sorry but it is not fact that Jesus is the Word in John 1:1. Adoni is a different word than Adonai. You might be trained in some languages and I'll admit, I only know English and Español, but that doesn't mean the you are right.[/SIZE]

If you do not know what you are talking about, please do not criticize those who do. I first learned to speak Greek more than 4 decades ago. I studied both Biblical Greek and Hebrew at the grad. level more than 2 decades ago. I have BAGD, TDNT, Louw-Nida, BDB, TWOT, on my bookshelf, and BDB, BAGD, TWOT, Robertson, Vincent, Keil-Delitszch, Thayer, and other Greek/Hebrew resources on my PCs.

Many of these are available online for verification.

You have not noted that I do not make empty assertions, I always back up what I say. If John's diciple taught it then it will take more than someone saying "private interpretation." to disprove it.

Ignatius, Epistle to the Magnesians, disciple of John the apostle. [30-107 AD]

He, being begotten by the Father before the beginning of time, was God the Word, the only-begotten Son, and remains the same for ever; for “of His kingdom there shall be no end,” says Daniel the prophet. …

Ignatius, Epistle to the Trallians

And God the Word was truly born of the Virgin, having clothed Himself with a body of like passions with our own. He who forms all men in the womb, was Himself really in the womb, and made for Himself a body of the seed of the Virgin, but without any intercourse of man. Since, also, there is but one unbegotten Being, God, even the Father; and one only-begotten Son, God, the Word and man; . . .

Ignatius, Epistle to the Philadelphians

If any one confesses these things, and that God the Word did dwell in a human body, being within it as the Word, . . .

Ignatius, Epistle to the Smyrneans

our Lord Jesus Christ, that He was the Son of God, “the firstborn of every creature,” God the Word, the only-begotten Son, and was of the seed of David according to the flesh, . . .

Ignatius, Epistle to the Tarsians

. . .He who was born of a woman was the Son of God, and He that was crucified was “the first-born of every creature,” and God the Word, who also created all things.

How could such a one be a mere man, receiving the beginning of His existence from Mary, and not 210 rather God the Word, and the only-begotten Son? For “in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

Ignatius, Epistle to the Philippians

And again, “Hath not one God created us? Have we not all one Father? And there is also one Son, God the Word. For “the only-begotten Son,” saith [the Scripture], “who is in the bosom of the Father.” …

... For “the Word became flesh.” For “Wisdom builded for herself a house.” And God the Word was born as man, with a body, of the Virgin, without any intercourse of man.

Justin - Dialogue with Trypho - [110-165 AD]

God begat before all creatures a Beginning, [who was] a certain rational power [proceeding] from Himself, who is called by the Holy Spirit, now the Glory of the Lord, now the Son, again Wisdom, again an Angel, then God, and then Lord and Logos;

“And that Christ being Lord, and God the Son of God, and appearing formerly in power as Man, and Angel, and in the glory of fire as at the bush, . . .

Irenaeus - Against Heresies Book 1 [120-202 AD] - Disciple of Polycarp, a disciple of John

Very properly, then, did he say, “In the beginning was the Word,” for He was in the Son; “and the Word was with God,” for He was the beginning; “and the Word was God,” of course, for that which is begotten of God is God. “The same was in the beginning with God” …

Irenaeus - Against Heresies - Book 2

Him who is God over all, since He is all Nous, and all Logos, … and has in Himself nothing more ancient or late than another, and nothing at variance with another, but continues altogether equal, and similar, and homogeneous, … He is all intelligence, and all word, . . .He is intelligence, in that also He is word, and that this Nous is His Logos, . . . And in what respect will the Word of God — yea, rather God Himself, since He is the Word . . .

Chap 17 Father of all is not to be regarded as a kind of compound Being, who 762 can be separated from his Nous (mind), as I have already shown; but Nous is the Father, and the Father Nous… he who springs from Him as Logos, or rather that Nous himself, since he is Logos, must be perfect and impassible,… they are of the same substance with himself, should be perfect and impassible, …

Irenaeus - Against Heresies - Book 3

For inasmuch as the Word of God was man from the root of Jesse, and son of Abraham, in this respect did the Spirit of God rest upon Him, and anoint Him to preach the Gospel to the lowly. But inasmuch as He was God, He did not judge according to glory, nor reprove after the manner of speech.

Irenaeus - Against Heresies - Book 4

And through the Word Himself who had been made visible and palpable, was the Father shown forth, … all saw the Father in the Son: for the Father is the invisible of the Son, but the Son the visible of the Father. And for this reason all spake with Christ when He was present [upon earth], and they named Him God.

He, therefore, who was known, was not a different being from Him who declared “No man knoweth the Father,” but one and the same, the Father making all things subject to Him; while He received testimony from all that He was very man, and that He was very God, from the Father, from the Spirit, . . .

For the true God did confess the commandment of the law as the word of God, and called no one else God besides His own Father.

Theophilus To Autolycus - Book 2 - [115 -181 AD]

In like manner also the three days which were before the luminaries, are types of the Trinity, of God, and His Word, and His wisdom.

Hear what I say. The God and Father, indeed, of all cannot be contained, and is not
found in a place, for there is no place of His rest; but His Word, through whom He made all things, being His power and His wisdom, assuming the person of the Father and Lord of all, went to the garden in the person of God, and conversed with Adam.

The Word, then, being God, and being naturally produced from God, whenever the Father of the universe wills, He sends Him to any place; and He, coming, is both heard and seen, being sent by Him, and is found in a place.

Clement of Alexandria - Exhortation To The Heathen - [153 - 217 AD]

Well, inasmuch as the Word was from the first, He was and is the divine source of all things; but inasmuch as He has now assumed the name Christ, consecrated of old, and worthy of power, he has been called by me the New Song. This Word, then, the Christ, the cause of both our being at first (for He was in God) and of our well-being, this very Word has now appeared as man, He alone being both, God and man.

He, who is in Him that truly is, has appeared; for the Word, who “was with God,” and by whom all things were created, has appeared as our Teacher. The Word, who in the beginning bestowed on us life as Creator when He formed us, taught us to live well when He appeared as our Teacher; that as God He might afterwards conduct us to the life which never ends.

If it is thy wish, be thou also initiated; and thou shalt join the choir along with angels around the unbegotten and indestructible and the only true God, the Word of God, raising the hymn with us. This Jesus, who is eternal, the one great High Priest of the one God, and of His Father, prays for and exhorts men.

Clement of Alexandria - The Instructor

God in the form of man, stainless, the minister of His Father’s will, the Word who is God, who is in the Father, who is at the Father’s right hand, and with the form of God is God.

Address Of Tatian To The Greeks – [110-172 AD]

God was in the beginning; but the beginning, we have been taught, is the power of the Logos. . . .And by His simple will the Logos springs forth; and the Logos, not coming forth in vain, becomes the first-begotten work of the Father. Him (the Logos) we know to be the beginning of the world. But He came into being by participation, not by abscission;

Chapter XXI.-Doctrines of the Christians and Greeks Respecting God Compared.

We do not act as fools, O Greeks, nor utter idle tales, when we announce that God was born in the form of a man.

A Plea For The Christians By Athenagoras The Athenian: [c.120- 180]

. . . But the Son of God is the Logos of the Father, in idea and in operation; for after the pattern of Him and by Him were all things made, the Father and the Son being one. . . .Who, then, would not be astonished to hear men who speak of God the Father, and of God the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, and who declare both their power in union and their distinction in order, called atheists?

…that they know God and His Logos, what is the oneness of the Son with the Father, what the communion of the Father with the Son, what is the Spirit, what is the unity of these three, the Spirit, the Son, the Father, and their distinction in unity; and who know 255 that the life for which we look is far better than can be described in words,

The Epistle Of Mathetes To Diognetus [c. 130 AD]

…but truly God Himself, who is almighty, the Creator of all things, and invisible, has sent from heaven, and placed among men, [Him who is] the truth, and the holy and incomprehensible Word, and has firmly established Him in their hearts … but the very Creator and Fashioner of all things-by whom He made the heavens-by whom he enclosed the sea within its proper bounds-whose ordinances all the stars faithfully observe-from whom the sun has received the measure of his daily course to be observed -whom the moon obeys, . . . and whom the stars also obey, . . .by whom all things have been arranged, and placed within their proper limits, and to whom all are subject-the heavens and the things that are therein, the earth and the things that are therein, the sea and the things that are therein-fire, air, and the abyss-the things which are in the heights, the things which are in the depths, and the things which lie between. This [messenger] He sent to them. Was it then, as one might conceive, for the purpose of exercising tyranny, or of inspiring fear and terror? By no means, but under the influence of clemency and meekness. As a king sends his son, who is also a king, so sent He Him; as God He sent Him; as to men He sent Him; as a Saviour He sent Him, and as seeking to persuade, not to compel us; for violence has no place in the character of God....

. . .For which reason He sent the Word, that He might be manifested to the world; and He, being despised by the people [of the Jews], was, when preached by the Apostles, believed on by the Gentiles. This is He who was from the beginning, who appeared as if new, and was found old, and yet who is ever born afresh in the hearts of the saints. This is He who, being from everlasting, is to-day called the Son; through whom the Church is enriched, and grace, widely spread, increases in the saints…​

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]Please state your source that is most ancient and how you have figured out it was most reliable.[/SIZE]

Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament – John 1:18

No man hath seen God at any time ([size=+1]θεον ουδεις εωρακεν πωποτε[/size]/theon oudeis eoraken popote). "God no one has ever seen." Perfect active indicative of [size=+1]οραω[/size]/horaōw. Seen with the human physical eye, John means. God is invisible (Exodus 33:20; Deuteronomy 4:12). Paul calls God [size=+1]αορατος[/size]/aoratos ( Colossians 1:15; 1 Timothy 1:17). John repeats the idea in John 5:37; John 6:46. And yet in John 14:7 Jesus claims that the one who sees him has seen the Father as here. The only begotten Son ([size=+1]ο μονογενης υιος[/size]/o monogenhs uios. This is the reading of the Textus Receptus and is intelligible after [size=+1]ως μονογενους παρα πατρος[/size]/os monogenous para patros in verse John 14. But the best old Greek manuscripts (Aleph B C L) read [size=+1]μονογενης θεος[/size]/monogenes theos (God only begotten) which is undoubtedly the true text. Probably some scribe changed it to [size=+1]ο μονογενης υιος[/size]/o monogenes uios to obviate the blunt statement of the deity of Christ and to make it like John 3:16. But there is an inner harmony in the reading of the old uncials. The Logos is plainly called [size=+1]θεος[/size]/theos in verse John 1. The Incarnation is stated in verse John 14, where he is also termed [size=+1]μονογενης[/size]/monogenes. He was that before the Incarnation. So he is "God only begotten,"

Nestle-Aland 26 -Joh 1:18 [size=+1]θεον ουδεις εωρακεν πωποτε· μονογενης θεος ο ων εις τον κολπον του πατρος εκεινος εξηγησατο.[/size]

ASV CEV ISV NIV RSVA Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word [size=+1]was[/size] God.

CEV Joh 1:18 No one has ever seen God. The only Son, who is truly God and is closest to the Father, has shown us what God is like.

ISV Joh 1:18 No one has ever seen God. The unique God, who is close to the Father's side, has revealed him.

NIV Joh 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known.

Vincent Word Studies The only begotten son ([size=+1]ο μονογενης υιος[/size]). Several of the principal
manuscripts and a great mass of ancient evidence support the reading ( [size=+1]μονογενης θεος[/size]), “God only begotten.” 16

New English Translation- Notes-45tc The textual problem monogenhV" qeov" (monogenh" qeo", “the only God”) versus oJ monogenhV" uiJov" (Jo monogenh" Juio", “the only son”) is a notoriously difficult one. Only one letter would have differentiated the readings in the mss, since both words would have been contracted as nomina sacra: thus qMs or uMs. Externally, there are several variants, but they can be grouped essentially by whether they read qeov" or uiJov". The majority of mss, especially the later ones (A C3 Q Y Ë1,13 Ï lat), read oJ monogenhV" uiJov". Ì75 Í1 33 pc have oJ monogenhV" qeov", while the anarthrous monogenhV" qeov" is found in Ì66 Í* B C* L pc. The articular qeov" is almost certainly a scribal emendation to the anarthrous qeov", for qeov" without the article is a much harder reading. The external evidence thus strongly supports monogenhV" qeov".​

 

[Der Alte]

[size=-1]This pretty much goes to the heart of the matter. No verse says Jesus Christ is God. The whole doctrine that Jesus Christ is God is not based on what scripture says but on interpretations of scripture. John 1.1 is interpreted to mean that Jesus is God, not that it says it, john 1.14 doesn’t say Jesus is God it is interpreted to mean that Jesus is God, John 5.18 doesn’t say “Jesus is God’ it is interpreted to mean that Jesus is God, John 5.18 doesn’t say ‘Jesus is God ‘ it is interpreted to mean ‘Jesus is God’. John 8.24 doesn’t say Jesus is God it is interpreted to mean Jesus is God, and so on down the whole list.[/SIZE]

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[Bananna]

Der Alter
There is a problem your take on 1 Timothy 3:16

1 Timothy 3:16KJV And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Textus Receptus
kai ( and) omologoumeno^s (agreement, without controversy) mega (great) estin (is) to (this) Te^s (the) eusebeias (piety towards God, godly) muste^rion (mystery)
theos (God) ephanero^the^ (made {the one) perfect -aor ind pass 3rd sg )en sarki (flesh- fem, indirect object, sg) edikaio^the^ (set right - aor ind pass 3rd sg ) en (in) pneumatic (blowing, wind, spirit - neut , indirect object, sg) o^phthe^ (was seen - aor ind pass 3rd sg ) aggelois ( angels, messengers, Paul’s word for the people of God - masc/fem ,indirect object, pl) eke^ruchthe^(was a Harold- aor ind pass 3rd sg) en (into to) ethnesin(a number of people accustomed to live together, a company, body of men, nations- pl, indirect object,) episteuthe^ (trusted to or in, put faith in, relied on, believed in- aor ind pass 3rd sg) en (into) kosmo^ (order, universe) anele^phthe^ (took up, took into one's hands) en doxe^ (glory)

and without controversy great is this, the godly mystery,
God made perfect in flesh, set right in spirit, was seen
messengers herald to nations trusted in took up glory

God made the one perfect

Try some sentense diagraming.

It a can be difficult for us to follow Subject, verb and object in each idea because Greek is structured differently, but with God all things are possible.

Bananna

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]Der Alter
There is a problem your take on 1 Timothy 3:16

and without controversy great is this, the godly mystery,
God made perfect in flesh, set right in spirit, was seen
messengers herald to nations trusted in took up glory

God made the one perfect

Try some sentense diagraming.

It a can be difficult for us to follow Subject, verb and object in each idea because Greek is structured differently, but with God all things are possible.

Bananna[/SIZE]

Diagramming an English translation, from the Greek, is meaningless,the word order, and the signficance of that are different.

If it is possible for you to follow the subject, verb, etc. then please parse the verbs for me in that verse. That will definitely aid understanding.

The word in 1 Tim 3:16 is "manifested," not "made perfect." That is indisputable.

Please go read the article I posted. It was written by a Greek scholar who cited other Greek scholars.

As I said I first learned to speak Greek more than 4 decades ago, and studied it formally more than 2 decades ago. I am really not interested in amateur speculation.

 

[Bananna]

Thank Der Alter, but diagraming it will help me see what you are seeing.

Why do you say "manifested" is indesputable? "Made manifest would be more to your liking?

Also could you please tell me what John 20:31 says in the Greek in your prefered manuscript you are quoting from?

I'm just using the Textus Receptus... not partial to which is used as long as I have access to the qualifying verses.

Bananna

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]Thank Der Alter, but diagraming it will help me see what you are seeing.

Why do you say "manifested" is indesputable? "Made manifest would be more to your liking?

Also could you please tell me what John 20:31 says in the Greek in your prefered manuscript you are quoting from?

I'm just using the Textus Receptus... not partial to which is used as long as I have access to the qualifying verses.

Bananna[/SIZE]

KJV 1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest [[size=+1]φανερόω [/size]] in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.


G5319 [size=+1]φανερόω [/size] phaneroō
Thayer Definition:
1) to make manifest or visible or known what has been hidden or unknown, to manifest, whether by words, or deeds, or in any other way
1a) make actual and visible, realised
1b) to make known by teaching
1c) to become manifest, be made known
1d) of a person
1d1) expose to view, make manifest, to show one’s self, appear
1e) to become known, to be plainly recognised, thoroughly understood
1e1) who and what one is
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G5318
Citing in TDNT: 9:3, 1244

Strong's G5319 [size=+1]φανερόω [/size] phaneroō fan-er-o'-o
From G5318; to render apparent (literally or figuratively): - appear, manifestly declare, (make) manifest (forth), shew (self).​

Please see my post [here!] on 1 Tim 3:16, citing 13 scholars in the 18th-19th century that attest to the reading in the KJV.

John 20:31. The usual cop-out, "Here is one verse that absolutely, totally, completely, destroys the Trinity doctrine and no Trinitarian can answer it."

In Jewish thought, to say one was the son of God was to say that person was God. John also wrote,

Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

Robertson Word Pictures - John 20:31- Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God ( [size=+1]οτι ο ιησους εστιν ο χριστος ο υιος του θεου[/size]).
The man named Jesus is identical with the Messiah (the Anointed One) as opposed to the Cerinthian separation of the Jesus of history and the Christ (aeon) of theology. And the Docetic notion of a phantom body for Jesus with no actual human body is also false. Jesus is the Son of God with all that this high term implies, the Logos of John 1:1-18 (the Prologue). “Very God of very God,” Incarnate Revealer of God. But there is a further purpose.

And that believing ye may have life in his name (kai hina pisteuontes zōēn echēte en tōi onomati autou). Note present participle pisteuontes (continuing to believe) and the present active subjunctive echēte (keep on having). “Life” (zōēn) is eternal life so often mentioned in this Gospel, life to be found only in the name (and power) of Jesus Christ the Son of God. This verse constitutes a fitting close for this wonderful book and John may at first have intended to stop here. But before he published the work he added the Epilogue (Chapter XXI) which is written in the same style and gives a beautiful picture of the Risen Christ with a sidelight on John and Peter (restored to fellowship).​

 

[2ducklow]

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perhaps you could show me any evidence I have ignored instead of making the insinuating accusation that I ignore the evidence without providing even one example. Are we here to debate or make personal accusations?