trinity question

[jeffC]

perhaps you could show me any evidence I have ignored instead of making the insinuating accusation that I ignore the evidence without providing even one example of any evidence I have ignored. But then it is always safer to accuse without providing any proof. It is always safer to hide behind insinuations rather than to just come right out and boldy make an accusation at someone. Have the decency to back up your accusations about me with facts or keep them to yourself.

Actually, in all respect from my spot I see it the other way around. Der Alter provided many evidences to support his view. You dismissed all of these evidences in one sentence, because of the views you already hold. Your statement could be accurate for some, many, or all of the quotations Der Alter put forward, but that is for you to demonstrate. At the very least examining a few of them would be in order before blanketly discrediting all of them. IMO.

 

[2ducklow]

Actually, in all respect from my spot I see it the other way around. Der Alter provided many evidences to support his view. You dismissed all of these evidences in one sentence, because of the views you already hold.

Your facts are in error. I used 5 sentences to discuss the topic listed below. I didn't dismiss or even discuss the topic of whether scripture shows that Jesus Christ is God. I underlined and put in bold the question to produce something that says. and the response was to produce something that Shows. Nothing was produced to answer the question. which I pointed out.

Where beside John 1:1 (which has nothing to do with Jesus being God) does it say that Jesus Christ is God.

The response was

Bible verses that show Jesus is God

My response was..

This pretty much goes to the heart of the matter. No verse says Jesus Christ is God. The whole doctrine that Jesus Christ is God is not based on what scripture says but on interpretations of scripture. John 1.1 is interpreted to mean that Jesus is God, not that it says it, john 1.14 doesn’t say Jesus is God it is interpreted to mean that Jesus is God, John 5.18 doesn’t say “Jesus is God’ it is interpreted to mean that Jesus is God, John 5.18 doesn’t say ‘Jesus is God ‘ it is interpreted to mean ‘Jesus is God’. John 8.24 doesn’t say Jesus is God it is interpreted to mean Jesus is God, and so on down the whole list.

All scriptures I quote here were listed in an attempt to show that Jesus Christ is God. No attempt was made to produce scriputres that say "Jesus Christ is God."

The question was to provide scriptures that say Jesus Christ is god, the response was to list scriptures that show Jesus christ is God. then a long list was provided. I asserted that none of those scirptures say Jesus Christ is God , but how they are used to show (that is intepret them to mean Jesus christ is God) that Jesus Christ is God. . I also included all the verses that were listed in an attempt to show that Jesus Christ is God.

Your statement could be accurate for some, many, or all of the quotations Der Alter put forward, but that is for you to demonstrate. At the very least examining a few of them would be in order before blanketly discrediting all of them. IMO.

NO scriputre was provided by anyone that says "Jesus Christ is God", therefore it is accurate for everything ever printed anywhere. no scriputre says "Jesus Christ is God.there was never any assertion that any scriputre says the words "Jesus Christ is God" the assertion was that some scriptures show that Jesus Christ is God. That is what I responded to not everyting in CF. I did examine them none of them say Jesus Christ is God. I can't quote a scripture that says "jesus Christ is God' if there is none. and there are none.
It was in reference to the one I quoted, "Scriptures that Show that Jesus Christ is God. I wasn't commenting on everything.

I explained my assertion about scriputre and listed several of the scriputres quoted. , the insinuating accusation about me was backed up with not even one word.

I think you are confusing the difference in what something actually says and what it might show. frequently the argument discussed here boils down to one side saying "no scriputre says Jesus Christ is God." and the other side maintaining "scriputres show that Jesus Christ is God." Thus the problem is there is no meeting of the minds. as is the case here. one side asks for scritpure that say Jesus Christ is God, the other side shows scripture that they take to mean that Jesus Christ is God. I feel this is the heart of the problem. one side correctly insists that there has to be a scriputre that specifically states that Jesus Christ is God for so important a doctrine as who God is. The other side believes it is only necessary to have scriputre interpreted to mean that Jesus Christ is God. Because of this difficulty there can never be a meeting of the minds because both sides standards are different. I see it as nipping it in the bud.


I didn't really care to get into the discussion about whether or not those scriputres listed show that Jesus Christ was god as I've been down that road before. Even if they do show that Jesus Christ is God, there still is no scripture that says "Jesus Christ is God." Everyone is ffree to ignore my posts or not which everyone did. The only comments were by two people and both not on the subject I raised but on the subject of me. Therefore since you want to discuss me I am discussing it with you.

 

[Peterson]

Hey Duck,To think that God (Elohim/family) is a restatement of the Trinity is to say that you don’t comprehend the difference, They are entirely different. First, God, as a family Elohim, has no relationship with the doctrine of the Trinity whatever.

I’m wondering if you realize what the Trinity involves. First it is not a family. It involves three, and only three personalities. These three personalities have eternally existed. These three personalities are coequal in every sense; none being superior to the others, or even dependent on the other two. In fact, two together, are not superior to the other one.

Duck, if you can figure this Athanasian statement in the doctrine, and explain it to me, you are a better man than I. For, like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be God, and Lord, so we are forbidden by the Catholic religion to say, there be three Gods or three Lords. Here, a positive statement is made, and then that statement is denied. One is told that we are compelled to acknowledge three independent Gods individually, then we are forbidden to acknowledge three Gods independently. On top of that, the doctrine cites no Scriptural evidence for its claims.

In Genesis, the statement, Let us make man in our image, relates to the Family structure (Elohim), with the father as the supreme head and the family being his genetic offspring of the same kind - humans of like kind., Adam being the first father, and the father of the human race. The human family is in the same pattern as the God family, with a couple of exceptions: Man has been given free moral agency to do what he wants, good or bad. He has also (fortunately), been confined to a human body within the constraints of the laws of physics, which means he is not immortal, and can only operate within the confines of physical creation.

Elohim, God’s family, is still in the process of creation. That is, we will ultimately be a part of the family of God by adoption (Romans 8:15; 8:23; 9:4; Galatians 4:5; Ephesians 1:5).
Elohim does not refer to a specific limited number like three. It is a uniplural noun, with no specific number composing the whole, but within that family, the Father is absolutely supreme, and the eldest Son, Jesus Christ is heir to all things, and sits at the right hand of the Father. There is no third coequal person called the holy ghost. The Holy Spirit is the mind, power and personality of the Father, given us through his like-minded Son Jesus christ.

 

[2ducklow]

Hey Duck,

Quack.

To think that God (Elohim/family) is a restatement of the Trinity is to say that you don’t comprehend the difference, They are entirely different. First, God, as a family Elohim, has no relationship with the doctrine of the Trinity whatever.

I’m wondering if you realize what the Trinity involves. First it is not a family. It involves three, and only three personalities. These three personalities have eternally existed. These three personalities are coequal in every sense; none being superior to the others, or even dependent on the other two. In fact, two together, are not superior to the other one.

The doctrine fluxuates, sometimes its 3 persons of god, some times a persons of God is god, sometimes a person of god is a mere personality, sometimes people say it’s a being. Sometimes they are co-equal but then sometimes they says the father is greater than the son. Sometimes they have them in the order, father, then the son, then the holy spirit.

Duck, if you can figure this Athanasian statement in the doctrine, and explain it to me, you are a better man than I. For, like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be God, and Lord, so we are forbidden by the Catholic religion to say, there be three Gods or three Lords. Here, a positive statement is made, and then that statement is denied. One is told that we are compelled to acknowledge three independent Gods individually, then we are forbidden to acknowledge three Gods independently. On top of that, the doctrine cites no Scriptural evidence for its claims.

Ok I agree, more of the fluxuation thing I was talking about.

In Genesis, the statement, Let us make man in our image, relates to the Family structure (Elohim), with the father as the supreme head and the family being his genetic offspring of the same kind - humans of like kind., Adam being the first father, and the father of the human race. The human family is in the same pattern as the God family, with a couple of exceptions: Man has been given free moral agency to do what he wants, good or bad. He has also (fortunately), been confined to a human body within the constraints of the laws of physics, which means he is not immortal, and can only operate within the confines of physical creation.

I do not believe Elohim is a plural singular or as you put it 'uniplural' noun. I believe that is just as nonsensical as an up down noun, or a right left noun, or a yes no noun, or a water, land noun or a uniplural noun.. in short, uniplural is a contradiction. If something is one it isn’t many, if something is many it isn’t one. Elohim has a plural sense and a singular sense, the form of the word is plural. Our English word fish has the same form whether it be singular or plural but the sense of the word is sometimes plural and sometimes singular. It is not a plural singular noun. That is nonsensical. Elyhim is the same as fish. Sometimes it is used in a plural sense, as in the gods, and sometimes the sense of the word is singular as in ‘the Lord our elohyim is one. No one is several one being(s). warp factor 2 scotty.

Elohim, God’s family, is still in the process of creation. That is, we will ultimately be a part of the family of God by adoption (Romans 8:15; 8:23; 9:4; Galatians 4:5; Ephesians 1:5).
Elohim does not refer to a specific limited number like three. It is a uniplural noun, with no specific number composing the whole, but within that family, the Father is absolutely supreme, and the eldest Son, Jesus Christ is heir to all things, and sits at the right hand of the Father. There is no third coequal person called the holy ghost. The Holy Spirit is the mind, power and personality of the Father, given us through his like-minded Son Jesus christ.

Ok, I misunderstood your concept, I thought the family of god included only father son and holy ghost. Hence the reason I saw little difference in it and the trinity. I will restate my analysis then. I consider the god family with many members to be polytheism that in no way resembles monotheism. The family is not a being it is a grouping of many gods. You could just as well call the family gods as to call them family,IMO.

 

[Bananna]

Robertson Word Pictures - John 20:31- Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God ( [SIZE=+1]οτι ο ιησους εστιν ο χριστος ο υιος του θεου[/SIZE]).
The man named Jesus is identical with the Messiah (the Anointed One) as opposed to the Cerinthian separation of the Jesus of history and the Christ (aeon) of theology. And the Docetic notion of a phantom body for Jesus with no actual human body is also false. Jesus is the Son of God with all that this high term implies, the Logos of John 1:1-18 (the Prologue). “Very God of very God,” Incarnate Revealer of God. But there is a further purpose.

And that believing ye may have life in his name (kai hina pisteuontes zōēn echēte en tōi onomati autou). Note present participle pisteuontes (continuing to believe) and the present active subjunctive echēte (keep on having). “Life” (zōēn) is eternal life so often mentioned in this Gospel, life to be found only in the name (and power) of Jesus Christ the Son of God. This verse constitutes a fitting close for this wonderful book and John may at first have intended to stop here. But before he published the work he added the Epilogue (Chapter XXI) which is written in the same style and gives a beautiful picture of the Risen Christ with a sidelight on John and Peter (restored to fellowship).
​

Der Alter
Since the manuscript and source you prefer to use states specifically that John wrote this book to show that Jesus was the Christ the son of God , why do you choose to believe John was saying Jesus is God. The purpose of the Author needs to be considered. The culture of the Author needs to be acknowledged.

Christ means "annointed, rubbed on" from Messiah (Chosen one, annointed)

God's word is personified but is not Messiah in John 1:1. Messiah became the Torah amoung us infused with grace and truth.

There is one that is choosing that is Abba Father
The Father chose to annoint Yehoshuah the Son.

We are all sons of God Yehoshuah is the prefered, chosen, annoited.

Abba made manifest the son.
The Son harolded the God who is spirit and who NO MAN sees. We who have seen Yehoshuah have SEEN the Father.

How do we see the UNSEEN in Yehoshuah that we might see the unseen God?

Jhn 3:8The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

We see the works of God through Yehoshuah. The trees of the field clap their hands as the wind moves them.

Refined as silver Yehoshuah was the perfect reflection of the Father. He was moving as one with the Father but not the Father himself. This is why when Yehoshuah died on the cross the Father did not die but had turned his face away as our judgement was nailed to that cross.

Bananna

 

[Bananna]

Hey Duck,

Since this is a thread on Trinity lets talk about the lack of scripture support for the God hood of the spirit of God.

Bananna

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]Der Alter
Since the manuscript and source you prefer to use states specifically that John wrote this book to show that Jesus was the Christ the son of God , why do you choose to believe John was saying Jesus is God. The purpose of the Author needs to be considered. The culture of the Author needs to be acknowledged[/SIZE].

Why did you ignore the context I emphasized? That verse is not the only verse in John. Why did John record that the Jews tried to stone Jesus at least three times? "Because you being a man make yourself God."

And I am really not interested in what appears to me, to be a semi- quasi- Christian Judaism, that is neither one.

Here is the pre-Christian Jewish thought on "The Word" and God.

Here from the Jewish Encyclopedia, part of the article on “Memra,” the Aramaic word for “word.” The Targums were Aramaic translations of the O.T., during the Babylonian captivity about 700 BC.

Here in this citation there are at least eighty examples where the name of YHWH was replaced, in the Targums, with “memra.” When the Jew John said to his Jewish audience, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.,” he was not saying anything new.

Jewish Encyclopedia Memra-In the Targum:

In the Targum the Memra figures constantly as the manifestation of the divine power, or as God's messenger in place of God Himself, wherever the predicate is not in conformity with the dignity or the spirituality of the Deity.

Instead of the Scriptural "You have not believed in the Lord," Targ. Deut. i. 32 has "You have not believed in the word of the Lord"; instead of "I shall require it [vengeance] from him," Targ. Deut. xviii. 19 has "My word shall require it." "The Memra," [The Word] instead of "the Lord," is "the consuming fire" (Targ. Deut. ix. 3; comp. Targ. Isa. xxx. 27). The Memra "plagued the people" (Targ. Yer. to Ex. xxxii. 35). "The Memra smote him" (II Sam. vi. 7; comp. Targ. I Kings xviii. 24; Hos. xiii. 14; et al.). Not "God," but "the Memra [The Word]," is met with in Targ. Ex. xix. 17 (Targ. Yer. "the Shekinah"; comp. Targ. Ex. xxv. 22: "I will order My Memra to be there"). "I will cover thee with My Memra," [The Word] instead of "My hand" (Targ. Ex. xxxiii. 22). Instead of "My soul," "My Memra [The Word] shall reject you" (Targ. Lev. xxvi. 30; comp. Isa. i. 14, xlii. 1; Jer. vi. 8; Ezek. xxiii. 18). "The voice of the Memra," [The Word] instead of "God," is heard (Gen. iii. 8; Deut. iv. 33, 36; v. 21; Isa. vi. 8; et al.). Where Moses says, "I stood between the Lord and you" (Deut. v. 5), the Targum has, "between the Memra of the Lord and you"; and the "sign between Me and you" becomes a "sign between My Memra and you" (Ex. xxxi. 13, 17; comp. Lev. xxvi. 46; Gen. ix. 12; xvii. 2, 7, 10; Ezek. xx. 12). Instead of God, the Memra [The Word] comes to Abimelek (Gen. xx. 3), and to Balaam (Num. xxiii. 4). His Memra aids and accompanies Israel, performing wonders for them (Targ. Num. xxiii. 21; Deut. i. 30, xxxiii. 3; Targ. Isa. lxiii. 14; Jer. xxxi. 1; Hos. ix. 10 [comp. xi. 3, "the messenger-angel"]). The Memra goes before Cyrus (Isa. xlv. 12). The Lord swears by His Memra (Gen. xxi. 23, xxii. 16, xxiv. 3; Ex. xxxii. 13; Num. xiv. 30; Isa. xlv. 23; Ezek. xx. 5; et al.). It is His Memra that repents (Targ. Gen. vi. 6, viii. 21; I Sam. xv. 11, 35). Not His "hand," but His "Memra [The Word] has laid the foundation of the earth" (Targ. Isa. xlviii. 13); for His Memra's or Name's sake does He act (l.c. xlviii. 11; II Kings xix. 34). Through the Memra God turns to His people (Targ. Lev. xxvi. 90; II Kings xiii. 23), becomes the shield of Abraham (Gen. xv. 1), and is with Moses (Ex. iii. 12; iv. 12, 15) and with Israel (Targ. Yer. to Num. x. 35, 36; Isa. lxiii. 14). It is the Memra, [The Word] not God Himself, against whom man offends (Ex. xvi. 8; Num. xiv. 5; I Kings viii. 50; II Kings xix. 28; Isa. i. 2, 16; xlv. 3, 20; Hos. v. 7, vi. 7; Targ. Yer. to Lev. v. 21, vi. 2; Deut. v. 11); through His Memra Israel shall be justified (Targ. Isa. xlv. 25); with the Memra Israel stands in communion (Targ. Josh. xxii. 24, 27); in the Memra man puts his trust (Targ. Gen. xv. 6; Targ. Yer. to Ex. xiv. 31; Jer. xxxix. 18, xlix. 11).

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=399&letter=M​

Here are some occurrences of Memra, “The Word,” in the Targums which merit special mention. From the Jewish Encyclopedia,

"The Memra [the Word] brings Israel nigh unto God and sits on His throne receiving the prayers of Israel" (Targ. Yer. to Deut. iv. 7).​

Fulfilled in Jesus.

Mat 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.​

The Word is the comforter in the Targums.

So, in the future, shall the Memra [the Word] be the comforter (Targ. Isa. lxvi. 13):​

Fulfilled in Jesus.

1Jo 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate [comforter] with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:​

The Word is the witness.

The Memra [the Word] is "the witness" (Targ. Yer. xxix. 23);​

Fulfilled in Jesus

Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Joh 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;​

In the Word is redemption.

"In the Memra [the Word] the redemption will be found" (Targ. Zech. xii. 5).

My Memra [the Word] shall be unto you for a redeeming deity, and you shall be unto My Name a holy people" (Targ. Yer. to Lev. xxii. 12)​

Fulfilled in Jesus.

Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Titus 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

1Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.​

 

[Bananna]

Yes Der Alter,

I'm Highly a ware of the usage of the "word" in Jewish targums. They do refer to YHVH they do not refer to Messiah.

All the verses you shared are wonderful verses.

Yehoshuah asked the Teachers and layers, why they thought it wrong to say he was the son of God since HE called them gods to whom the Torah was given.

Yehoshuah clearly states himself the Son of God but never YHVH. Yehoshuah has one God, the God of Israel who is YHVH Echad maker of heaven and earth.

Bananna

 

[Bananna]

2ducklow,

In discussing the nature of God Revelations 1 points to the seven spirits at the foot of the throne. There are also seven spirits of the Churches of Asia. There are seven spirits given to messiah to do the work he came to do on earth... One is the Ruach HaKodash. Not all spirits are the Ruach HaKodesh.

God himself is (A) spirit, force, person... well indescribable, but the spirits are identified by their actions: sanctification, wisdom, discernment ...etc.

Is all that is "of God" god (Elohim)?

bananna

 

[2ducklow]

2ducklow,

In discussing the nature of God Revelations 1 points to the seven spirits at the foot of the throne. There are also seven spirits of the Churches of Asia. There are seven spirits given to messiah to do the work he came to do on earth... One is the Ruach HaKodash. Not all spirits are the Ruach HaKodesh.

God himself is (A) spirit, force, person... well indescribable, but the spirits are identified by their actions: sanctification, wisdom, discernment ...etc.

Is all that is "of God" god (Elohim)?

bananna

I’m not sure I understand what you are getting at. But I believe spirit beings are either angels or demons, and that God is the all powerfull omniscient, omnipresent spirit, which none of the other spirits are. The seven spirits at the foot of the throne are prince angelic spirits, like Michael and Gabriel. I don’t really understand your closing question

 

[2ducklow]

Hey Duck,

Since this is a thread on Trinity lets talk about the lack of scripture support for the God hood of the spirit of God.

Bananna

I believe godhood is a pretty good translation of theotes in col.2.9. I would say however that there is a total lack of support for the godhead of the spirit of god. The meaning of Col. 2.9 is that Jesus in every way exibits only good qualities that are a reflection of God. Jesus is the image of the invisible god in every way possible for a man to be tthat image.

 

[Bananna]

[/size]

I’m not sure I understand what you are getting at. But I believe spirit beings are either angels or demons, and that God is the all powerfull omniscient, omnipresent spirit, which none of the other spirits are. The seven spirits at the foot of the throne are prince angelic spirits, like Michael and Gabriel. I don’t really understand your closing question

Are we Elohim, because we are Of God and made in the image of God?

Bananna

 

[Bananna]

[/size]

I believe godhood is a pretty good translation of theotes in col.2.9. I would say however that there is a total lack of support for the godhead of the spirit of god. The meaning of Col. 2.9 is that Jesus in every way exibits only good qualities that are a reflection of God. Jesus is the image of the invisible god in every way possible for a man to be tthat image.

What makes you think the spirits at the foot of the throne may be Michael etc....

Blessings
bananna

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]Yes Der Alter,

I'm Highly a ware of the usage of the "word" in Jewish targums. They do refer to YHVH they do not refer to Messiah.

All the verses you shared are wonderful verses.

Yehoshuah asked the Teachers and layers, why they thought it wrong to say he was the son of God since HE called them gods to whom the Torah was given.

Yehoshuah clearly states himself the Son of God but never YHVH. Yehoshuah has one God, the God of Israel who is YHVH Echad maker of heaven and earth.

Bananna[/SIZE]

I demonstrated from scripture, in the O.T. God was literally the Word, and the Word was literally God. In the N.T. the Word was God, and the Word acting upon himself became flesh, and we beheld his glory as the glory of the only begotten of the father.

Don't blow off my posts with, "those are wonderful verses," and expect me to address your out-of-context references which you don't even understand yourself. Even as you misquoted ps 82, it does not say what you think it says.

And OBTW in Hebrew there is no "H" [SIZE=+1]ה[/SIZE] at the end of Yehoshua's name. [SIZE=+1]יהושׁע[/SIZE]

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]I believe godhood is a pretty good translation of theotes in col.2.9. I would say however that there is a total lack of support for the godhead of the spirit of god. The meaning of Col. 2.9 is that Jesus in every way exibits only good qualities that are a reflection of God. Jesus is the image of the invisible god in every way possible for a man to be tthat image.[/SIZE]

What you think a Greek word is best translated as is completely irrelevant, you could not parse a Greek verb if your life depended on it. And I seriously doubt you even know what that means.

The Holy Spirit

The Holy Spirit is the third person in the Trinity. He is fully God. He is eternal, omniscient, omnipresent, has a will, a mind, a distinct self, and can speak. He is alive. He is a person. He is not particularly visible in the Bible because His ministry is to bear witness of Jesus (John 5:26).

Some false teaching religions like the Jehovah's Witnesses, etc., say that the Holy Spirit is nothing more than a force (Reasoning from the Scriptures, 1985, pp. 406-407). This is false. If the Holy Spirit were merely a force, then He could not speak (Acts 13:2); He could not be grieved (Eph. 4:30); and He would not have a will (1 Cor. 12:11), a self, (Jn 16:13), or a mind, (Rom 8:27).

The truth is there are seventy two (72) personal characteristics attributes, listed in scripture for the Holy Spirit and He is a person the same as the Father and the Son are within the Trinity.

Names of the Spirit
1. God -Acts 5:3-4
2. Lord - 2 Cor. 3:18
3. Spirit - 1 Cor. 2:10
4. Spirit of God - 1 Cor. 3:16
5. Spirit of Truth - John 15:26
6. Eternal Spirit - Heb. 9:14

Attributes of (9)

7. Eternal -Heb. 9:14
8. Omnipotent - Luke 1:35
9. Omnipresent - Psalm 139:710
10. Distinct Will – 1 Cor. 12:11
11. Loves - Rom. 15:30
12. Speaks - Acts 8:29; 13:2
13. Distinct Mind – Rom 8:27
14. Distinct Self – John 16:13
15. Alive – John 14:17

Symbols of (3)

16. Dove - Matt. 3:15
17. Wind - John 3:5
18. Fire - Acts 2:3

Sins Against (6)

19. Blasphemy - Matt. 12:31
20. Resist (Unbelief) - Acts 7:51
21. Insult - Heb. 10:29
22. Lied to - Acts 5:3
23. Grieved - Eph. 4:30
24. Quench - 1 Thess. 5:19

Power in Christ's Life (6)

25. Conceived of - Matt. 1:18,20
26. Baptism - Matt. 3:15
27. Led by - Luke 4:1
28. Filled with Power - Luke 4:14,18
29. Witness of Jesus - John 15:26
30. Raised Jesus - Rom. 8:11

The Works of the Holy Spirit (42)

1 Access to God - Eph. 2:18
2 Anoints for Service - Luke 4:18
3 Assures - Rom. 8:15-16; Gal. 4:6
4 Authors Scripture - 2 Pet. 1:20-21
5 Baptizes - John 1:232-34; 1 Cor. 12:13-14
6 Believers Born of - John 3:3-6
7 Calls and Commissions - Acts 13:24; 20:28
8 Cleanses - 2 Thess. 3:13; 1 Pet. 1:2
9 Comforts - Act 9:31
10 Communion with believers – 2 Cor 13:14
11 Convicts of sin - John 16:9,14
12 Counsels - John 14:16
13 Creates - Gen. 1:2; Job 33:4
14 Empowers - 1 Thess. 1:5
15 Empowers Believers - Luke 24:49
16 Fellowship with believers – Phil 2:1
17 Fills - Acts 2:4; 4:29-31; 5:18-20; 9:17
18 Forbids action - Ac 16:6
19 Gives gifts - 1 Cor. 12:8-11
20 Glorifies Christ - John 16:14
21 Guides in truth - John 16:13
22 Helps our weakness - Rom. 8:26
23 Indwells believers - Rom. 8:9-14; Gal. 4:6
24 Inspires prayer - Eph. 6:18; Jude 20
25 Intercedes -Rom. 8:26
26 Interprets Scripture - 1 Cor. 2:1,14; Eph. 1:17
27 Leads - Rom. 8:14
28 Liberates - Rom. 8:2
29 Molds Character - Gal. 5:22-23
30 Produces fruit - Gal. 5:22-23
31 Raises from the dead - Rom. 8:11
32 Regenerates - Titus 3:5
33 Reveals – Luk 2:26
34 Sanctifies - Rom. 15:16
35 Seals - Eph. 1:1314; 4:30
36 Sends - Acts 13:4 Sent - Gal 4:6; 1 Pet 1:12
37 Sent - Gal 4:6; 1 Pet 1:12
38 Strengthens - Eph. 3:16; Acts 1:8; 2:4;1 Cor. 2:4
39 Testifies of Jesus - John 15:26
40 Victory over flesh - Rom. 8:2-4; Gal. 4:6
41 Warns – Acts 20:23
42 Worship helper - Phil. 3:3.

 

[2ducklow]

What you think a Greek word is best translated as is completely irrelevant, you could not parse a Greek verb if your life depended on it. And I seriously doubt you even know what that means.

Impolite, rude and crude language is irrelevant not what I think. 1 col. 2.9 was translated godhead in the kjv which at that time meant godhood. I have shown this in CF before with quotes. 'What I think', which you so graciously said was completely irrelevant, involves an analysis of the information i have received. Interpreting and analysing information is relveant to our discussion, otherwisewe might just as well cut and paste and say nothing. The only real thing insults do are mask weak arguments and they do this very effectively, hence why they are irrelevant. they hide the truth. I have noticed that you alomost without fail start your posts of with a whole paragraph of insults as is the case here. Jesus said that we are to be wise as serpents and gentle as doves, not wise as doves and gentle as serpents.

The word "Godhead" occurs three times in the scriptures (Acts 17: 29, Rom. 1: 20, Col. 2: 9, KJV). There are two different Greek words translated Godhead in these occurrences, theiotes and theotes. Thayer says Godhead (theiotes) means, "divinity, divine nature" (Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon, pg. 285). Vine distinguishes between these two words: "Theiotes, the attributes of God, His Divine nature and properties; theotes indicates the Divine essence of Godhood, the personality of God" (W. E. Vine, Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words). The Godhead, then, is divinity, divine nature, and the essence of God, simply stated. It is essential that we also understand the term inspired writers used to designate the Creator - "God." "God" is from the Greek theios which means "divine, deity" (Thayer, pg. 285).

http://www.bibletruths.net/Great%20Truths/GT01.htm

my conclusion from what I 've read is that godhood is a good translation. . My opinion lines up with this definition above. My opinion is that godhead is not a good translation because most people don't take godhead to mean any of the above things I quoted it as meaning. the average Joe, the average christian , the average preacher, based on my experiences, uses godhead as a synonym for trinity or the place the trinity hangs out. I don't know how many times I've heard the phrase, "the three persons of the godhead." or words to that effect. Here is one example below.

But how many individuals, "persons," or beings make up the Godhead? Does Deity consist of just one individual Being ("Jesus only"), or are the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit three separate spirit beings

http://www.biblestudylessons.com/cgi-bin/gospel_way/persons_godhead.php

this person, in the above quote, is using Godhead in the sense of trinity. trinity is not a definition of the greek word theites this person above is misusing the correct meaning of godhead, which is godhood. this occurs over and over and over whenever christians discuss the godhead.

godhead

NOUN:​

1. Divinity; godhood. 2. Godhead a. The Christian God, especially the Trinity. b. The essential and divine nature of God, regarded abstractly. ​

ETYMOLOGY:​

Middle English godhode, godhede, from Old English godh d : god, god; see god + -hd, -hood. ​

http://www.bartleby.com/61/37/G0173700.html
Most people use godhead as a synonym for trinity. Most people do not use godhead to mean godhood. as evidenced by your objection to my defining theotes as godhood and not godhead. theotes or theiotes does not mean godhead, it means godhood. it doesn't mean trinity it means godhood.


The Martin Luther bible uses the word 'gottheit' or godhood in col. 2.9 . It doesn't use the nonexistent word 'Gottkopf" (godhead) in col. 2.9.

The Holy Spirit

The Holy Spirit is the third person in the Trinity. He is fully God. He is eternal, omniscient, omnipresent, has a will, a mind, a distinct self, and can speak. He is alive. He is a person. He is not particularly visible in the Bible because His ministry is to bear witness of Jesus (John 5:26).

Some false teaching religions like the Jehovah's Witnesses, etc., say that the Holy Spirit is nothing more than a force (Reasoning from the Scriptures, 1985, pp. 406-407). This is false. If the Holy Spirit were merely a force, then He could not speak (Acts 13:2); He could not be grieved (Eph. 4:30); and He would not have a will (1 Cor. 12:11), a self, (Jn 16:13), or a mind, (Rom 8:27).

The truth is there are seventy two (72) personal characteristics attributes, listed in scripture for the Holy Spirit and He is a person the same as the Father and the Son are within the Trinity.

Names of the Spirit
1. God -Acts 5:3-4
2. Lord - 2 Cor. 3:18
3. Spirit - 1 Cor. 2:10
4. Spirit of God - 1 Cor. 3:16
5. Spirit of Truth - John 15:26
6. Eternal Spirit - Heb. 9:14

Attributes of (9)

7. Eternal -Heb. 9:14
8. Omnipotent - Luke 1:35
9. Omnipresent - Psalm 139:710
10. Distinct Will – 1 Cor. 12:11
11. Loves - Rom. 15:30
12. Speaks - Acts 8:29; 13:2
13. Distinct Mind – Rom 8:27
14. Distinct Self – John 16:13
15. Alive – John 14:17

Symbols of (3)

16. Dove - Matt. 3:15
17. Wind - John 3:5
18. Fire - Acts 2:3

Sins Against (6)

19. Blasphemy - Matt. 12:31
20. Resist (Unbelief) - Acts 7:51
21. Insult - Heb. 10:29
22. Lied to - Acts 5:3
23. Grieved - Eph. 4:30
24. Quench - 1 Thess. 5:19

Power in Christ's Life (6)

25. Conceived of - Matt. 1:18,20
26. Baptism - Matt. 3:15
27. Led by - Luke 4:1
28. Filled with Power - Luke 4:14,18
29. Witness of Jesus - John 15:26
30. Raised Jesus - Rom. 8:11

The Works of the Holy Spirit (42)

1 Access to God - Eph. 2:18
2 Anoints for Service - Luke 4:18
3 Assures - Rom. 8:15-16; Gal. 4:6
4 Authors Scripture - 2 Pet. 1:20-21
5 Baptizes - John 1:232-34; 1 Cor. 12:13-14
6 Believers Born of - John 3:3-6
7 Calls and Commissions - Acts 13:24; 20:28
8 Cleanses - 2 Thess. 3:13; 1 Pet. 1:2
9 Comforts - Act 9:31
10 Communion with believers – 2 Cor 13:14
11 Convicts of sin - John 16:9,14
12 Counsels - John 14:16
13 Creates - Gen. 1:2; Job 33:4
14 Empowers - 1 Thess. 1:5
15 Empowers Believers - Luke 24:49
16 Fellowship with believers – Phil 2:1
17 Fills - Acts 2:4; 4:29-31; 5:18-20; 9:17
18 Forbids action - Ac 16:6
19 Gives gifts - 1 Cor. 12:8-11
20 Glorifies Christ - John 16:14
21 Guides in truth - John 16:13
22 Helps our weakness - Rom. 8:26
23 Indwells believers - Rom. 8:9-14; Gal. 4:6
24 Inspires prayer - Eph. 6:18; Jude 20
25 Intercedes -Rom. 8:26
26 Interprets Scripture - 1 Cor. 2:1,14; Eph. 1:17
27 Leads - Rom. 8:14
28 Liberates - Rom. 8:2
29 Molds Character - Gal. 5:22-23
30 Produces fruit - Gal. 5:22-23
31 Raises from the dead - Rom. 8:11
32 Regenerates - Titus 3:5
33 Reveals – Luk 2:26
34 Sanctifies - Rom. 15:16
35 Seals - Eph. 1:1314; 4:30
36 Sends - Acts 13:4 Sent - Gal 4:6; 1 Pet 1:12
37 Sent - Gal 4:6; 1 Pet 1:12
38 Strengthens - Eph. 3:16; Acts 1:8; 2:4;1 Cor. 2:4
39 Testifies of Jesus - John 15:26
40 Victory over flesh - Rom. 8:2-4; Gal. 4:6
41 Warns – Acts 20:23
42 Worship helper - Phil. 3:3.

none of this has anything to do with the definition of theotes. it evades the topic. On second thought you probably better stick to your insult proofs. its the only proof you have. Listed below is everything you posted that proves that godhood is not a good translation of theotes.










.... See what i mean? take away your insults and you have said nothing. Insults do not prove anything. Show me why i need to know what parse means or how to parse greek verbs in order to be able to understand the definition of the greek word theotes.

 

[2ducklow]

Are we Elohim, because we are Of God and made in the image of God?

Bananna

We are elohyms because we represent elohym. because we have elohym in us and because elohym is manifesting himself to the world through us with his love and righteousness.

 

[2ducklow]

What makes you think the spirits at the foot of the throne may be Michael etc....

Blessings
bananna

The position of being at the foot of thethrone is one of a higher order than a position away from the foot of the throne. Michael and Gabriel are prince spirits or spirits that are over lesser spirits. Michael or Gabriel is just a guess baised on what I've said here.

 

[Bananna]

Isa 11:2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;

I believe these are the names of the Spirits.
Ruach YHVH
Ruach chokmah
binah
Ruach etzah
geborah
Ruach da'ath
Yirah(th?)

It would seem that these spirits were upon Yehoshuah much like the Spirit of HaShem was upon Samson.JMObananna

 

[2ducklow]

I believe these are the names of the Spirits.
Ruach YHVH
Ruach chokmah
binah
Ruach etzah
geborah
Ruach da'ath
Yirah(th?)

It would seem that these spirits were upon Yehoshuah much like the Spirit of HaShem was upon Samson.JMObananna

The spirit of Yahweh that was upon and in Jesus is Yahweh. A spirit of Wisdom is either a manifestation or attribute of the spirit of Yahweh that was in Jesus, or possibly some angelic spirits or spirits that aided Jesus in wisdom. After Jesus was tempted for 40 days God sent him angels to minister unto Jesus.