Trinity is wrong.

[ToxicReboMan]

What you are advocating is NOT consistent! Jesus prayed that the disciples be one, among themselves, as Jesus was one with the father. And we know that did not happen during the lifetime of the disciples

I'm being very consistent. Please by all means show my inconsistency.

Do you believe that Jesus is claiming to be God in John 10:30? Yes or no?

 

[ToxicReboMan]

Yes, mangling is the right word! John very clearly said that the Logos was God and that the Logos acting on himself became flesh and we beheld his glory as the only begotten of the father. Plus there are a total of, at least, 97 vss. which address or refer to Jesus as YHWH, or Theos, God.

Do you know why John wrote his gospel?


What is your problem with my original post? What you don't agree with how I described your understanding that, "In the beginning God was with God and God was God!?" As a trinitarian don't you believe that God gave God authority? As weird as it sounds.

It is only confusion when people like you deliberately distort and mangle the scripture, then complain that their distortion is confusion. I notice that you have not addressed the rest of my post.

The final defense of the doctrine of the Trinity is that it is a mystery. That confirms that it is unintelligible.

 

[Der Alte]

What you are advocating is NOT consistent! Jesus prayed that the disciples be one, among themselves, as Jesus was one with the father. And we know that did not happen during the lifetime of the disciples

I'm being very consistent. Please by all means show my inconsistency.

I explained this in the post you quoted, which I have included above.

Do you believe that Jesus is claiming to be God in John 10:30? Yes or no?

That is about like me asking you if you have stopped beating your wife, and wearing women's underwear, yes or no? I believe that the Jews were correct.

Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, "It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God."​

Then you are going to post the standard anti-Trinitarian argument about vss. 34 and 35 and misquote Jesus while doing so.

Methodius Oration on the Psalms [3d century]

VII. Let us look also at what follows. What says the most divine evangelist? When the Lord had entered into the temple, the blind and the lame came to Him; and He healed them. And when the chief priests and Pharisees saw the wonderful things that He did, and the children crying, and saying, Hosanna to the Son of David: Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord,51 they brooked not this honour that was paid Him, and therefore they came to Him, and thus spake, Hearest Thou not what these say? As if they said, Art Thou not grieved at hearing from these innocents things which befit God, and God alone? Has not God of old made it manifest by the prophet, "My glory will I not give unto another; "52 and how dost Thou, being a man, make Thyself God?53 But what to this answers the long-suffering One, He who is abundant in mercy,54 and slow to wrath?55 He bears with these frenzied ones; with an apology He keeps their wrath in check; in His turn He calls the Scriptures to their remembrance; He brings forward testimony to what is done, and shrinks not from inquiry. Wherefore He says, Have ye never heard Me saying by the prophet, Then shall ye know that I am He that doth speak?56 nor again, Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast Thou perfected praise because of Thine enemies, that Thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger? Which without doubt are ye, who give heed unto the law, and read the prophets, while yet ye despise Me who, both by the law and the prophets, have been beforehand proclaimed. Ye think, indeed, under a pretence of piety, to avenge the glory of God, not understanding that he that despiseth Me despiseth My Father also.57 I came forth from God, and am come into the world,58 and My glory is the glory of My Father also. Even thus these foolish ones, being convinced by our Saviour-God, ceased to answer Him again, the truth stopping their mouths; but adopting a new and foolish device, they took counsel against Him.​

 

[ripple the car]

Are we going to be consistent throughout the text and say that Jesus was asking the Heavenly Father that we believers might become God?

i've always understood that to be a relational, rather than ontological unity. we can see how close, personally, Christ was to His Father in heaven. One with Him in will and purpose, too. it's a relational unity, a closeness, Christians share with the Father too, in and through and because of Christ alone. we will still sin and rebell, because we're human. but that inner, personal, day by day relationship with God is there, because of Christ.

we can not ontologically become God, but as Father and Son are One relationally, we can partake in that, too.

 

[Der Alte]

Do you know why John wrote his gospel?

Irrelevant! Is that the only vs. in your Bible? Please do show me where John told any of the other disciples, or any other person, to not do or say anything which differed from John's purpose?

What is your problem with my original post? What you don't agree with how I described your understanding that, "In the beginning God was with God and God was God!?"

You are presuming to read my mind about what I understand. Can you show any scripture which states "In the beginning God was with God and God was God?" If not then you are deliberately misrepresenting scripture and the Trinity.

As a trinitarian don't you believe that God gave God authority? As weird as it sounds.

Can you cite any scripture which states "God gave God authority?"

The final defense of the doctrine of the Trinity is that it is a mystery. That confirms that it is unintelligible.

There are many mysteries in the Bible. Where is it written that finite man will have a complete, total understanding of the infinite God? In fact scripture says exactly the opposite.

 

[ToxicReboMan]

I explained this in the post you quoted, which I have included above.

Very well. How exactly is Jesus one with the Father? In what way are they one?

That is about like me asking you if you have stopped beating your wife, and wearing women's underwear, yes or no?

Huh??? What are you talking about? I asked a normal straightforward question. You are ignoring context to get your interpretation. Context is not only the immediately surrounding text, but can also be referred to in other parts of the book as well. And looking at John 17:21-23 it helps us see the proper context of this statement, "I and the Father are one."

I believe that the Jews were correct.

Joh 10:33[/B] The Jews answered him, "It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God."​

Then you are going to post the standard anti-Trinitarian argument about vss. 34 and 35 and misquote Jesus while doing so.

Methodius Oration on the Psalms [3d century]​

Sure we have a man who goes around forgiving peoples sins and miraculously curing them of their infirmities. The unbelieving Jews were blind to the fact that Jesus was sent from God as Messiah. They didn't understand that this man, Jesus of Nazareth, was given all authority from God over mankind. They didn't understand that he was the Son of God. So naturally the Jews wanting swift action against Jesus accuse him of making himself out to be God. Jesus never claimed to be God. He just spoke the Wisdom of God. Thus, one can see why Jesus may have been mistakenly perceived to be pretending to be God.

VII. Let us look also at what follows. What says the most divine evangelist? When the Lord had entered into the temple, the blind and the lame came to Him; and He healed them. And when the chief priests and Pharisees saw the wonderful things that He did, and the children crying, and saying, Hosanna to the Son of David: Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord,51 they brooked not this honour that was paid Him, and therefore they came to Him, and thus spake, Hearest Thou not what these say? As if they said, Art Thou not grieved at hearing from these innocents things which befit God, and God alone? Has not God of old made it manifest by the prophet, "My glory will I not give unto another; "52 and how dost Thou, being a man, make Thyself God?53 But what to this answers the long-suffering One, He who is abundant in mercy,54 and slow to wrath?55 He bears with these frenzied ones; with an apology He keeps their wrath in check; in His turn He calls the Scriptures to their remembrance; He brings forward testimony to what is done, and shrinks not from inquiry. Wherefore He says, Have ye never heard Me saying by the prophet, Then shall ye know that I am He that doth speak?56 nor again, Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast Thou perfected praise because of Thine enemies, that Thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger? Which without doubt are ye, who give heed unto the law, and read the prophets, while yet ye despise Me who, both by the law and the prophets, have been beforehand proclaimed. Ye think, indeed, under a pretence of piety, to avenge the glory of God, not understanding that he that despiseth Me despiseth My Father also.57 I came forth from God, and am come into the world,58 and My glory is the glory of My Father also. Even thus these foolish ones, being convinced by our Saviour-God, ceased to answer Him again, the truth stopping their mouths; but adopting a new and foolish device, they took counsel against Him.

"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." 1 Tim 2:5 KJV​

​

 

[ToxicReboMan]

i've always understood that to be a relational, rather than ontological unity. we can see how close, personally, Christ was to His Father in heaven. One with Him in will and purpose, too. it's a relational unity, a closeness, Christians share with the Father too, in and through and because of Christ alone. we will still sin and rebell, because we're human. but that inner, personal, day by day relationship with God is there, because of Christ.

we can not ontologically become God, but as Father and Son are One relationally, we can partake in that, too.

Yes, we can partake in the divine nature. That is also Scriptural.

Jesus is special not because he is God, but because God is his Father. A man born without earthly father and full of his Father's Spirit. Yes, he is special for many reasons too numerous to list now, but in the end he is a man who obeys God his Father. He is not God who obeys God.

 

[ripple the car]

Very well. How exactly is Jesus one with the Father? In what way are they one?

substantially and personally, they are one and the same. this is why Jesus can point to Himself and say "if you have seen Me, you have seen the Father" (John 14:6-9), as in Him the fullness of God's person and nature (although not all of Him, as God is infinite, omni-present, and can not be spent) dwelled in Christ, bodily.

this is kind of where the hypostatic union comes in, the union of Jesus' divine and human natures through the incarnation. Jesus was always been ontologically one with, the same as, and even a part of God, the Father in a wholly unique way. and yet still subordinate to, from, and under the Father, being eternally begotten by Him.

thus the Son (incarante, the Lord Jesus we read about in the Gospels) is fully God and fully Man, and yet not God the Father.

 

[ToxicReboMan]

Irrelevant! Is that the only vs. in your Bible? Please do show me where John told any of the other disciples, or any other person, to not do or say anything which differed from John's purpose?

Trust me if Jesus was God then John would have made that abundantly clear. Instead, what John makes clear is that Jesus is a man.


It is argued by trinitarians that John wrote his gospel to prove that Jesus is God despite what John himself wrote here:

"But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name."
Jn 20:31 KJV​

You are presuming to read my mind about what I understand. Can you show any scripture which states "In the beginning God was with God and God was God?" If not then you are deliberately misrepresenting scripture and the Trinity.

You believe Jesus Christ is the Logos and you believe that Jesus Christ is God. So all I did was replace those terms with the word God. After all they are synonymous according to trinitarians.

Can you cite any scripture which states "God gave God authority?"

You are misunderstanding me. I'll try again. I can't cite that exact quote, but that was not my intention anyway. I'm trying to illustrate to you that God gave Jesus authority as stated in Scripture:

8And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth." Matt 28:18 KJV​

And since you believe that Jesus is God then the above passage can be understood as God giving God authority. Understand?

There are many mysteries in the Bible. Where is it written that finite man will have a complete, total understanding of the infinite God? In fact scripture says exactly the opposite.

Sure as far as things that are not explained or explainable they are mysteries.

 

[Dionysiou]

God is supernatural so already things are difficulty, but also i think that the Trinity is not three beings or three Gods, rather they are three distinctions of God. I wouldnt straight out condemn the idea of the trinity either, i mean cmon man when your praying to God your praying to God. Nobody says" Our Trinity who art in heaven hallowed be thy name".

 

[Gareth]

The trinity can't be three distinctions of God for a few reasons. Firstly, which Bible verses can be used that are not insertions? Secondly, why did Jesus while on earth repeatedly pass on praise to himself and give it to God? Why did he pray to God as often as he did, when in actuality he was praying to himself, as the trinity theory would have us understand. Why did he come to earth at all, if he were God, the issues at stake could of been resolved from heaven, could it not?

The reasons for Jesus coming to earth to do the things he did are being forgotton. And yet these reasons and their implications are potentially life-saving. People can get bogged down in theology, and forget that the truth of the Bible is actually quite simple and summed up in John 17:3.

 

[ripple the car]

The trinity can't be three distinctions of God for a few reasons. Firstly, which Bible verses can be used that are not insertions? Secondly, why did Jesus while on earth repeatedly pass on praise to himself and give it to God? Why did he pray to God as often as he did, when in actuality he was praying to himself, as the trinity theory would have us understand. Why did he come to earth at all, if he were God, the issues at stake could of been resolved from heaven, could it not?

The reasons for Jesus coming to earth to do the things he did are being forgotton. And yet these reasons and their implications are potentially life-saving. People can get bogged down in theology, and forget that the truth of the Bible is actually quite simple and summed up in John 17:3.

Woden, you might want to look into the early Church Fathers on the relationship of the Father (invisible and Spirit) to the Son (incarnate, fully God and fully Man). e.g. Justin Martyr, Ignatius of Antioch, Origen (not technically a Church Father, but still very important), and Lucian of Antioch.

when we read the word "God" in the NT, it is almost always a reference to God, the Father. yet to say that Jesus is not God in His nature and being is to deny the virgin birth, to deny His words in John 17:5, and in John 14:6-9. one can not point to themselves and equate themselves with God in personhood unless that is exactly who they are. Christ is clearly not God, the Father, but we can justifiably call Him God the Son.

 

[Der Alte]

Very well. How exactly is Jesus one with the Father? In what way are they one?

The father is God but he is NOT the son or the holy spirit. The Son is God but he is NOT the father or the holy spirit. The Holy Spirit is God but he is NOT the son or the father.<loop>

Huh??? What are you talking about? I asked a normal straightforward question. You are ignoring context to get your interpretation.

You asked a leading out-of-context question demanding a yes or no answer. I refuse to be led into those kind of logical fallacy games.

Context is not only the immediately surrounding text, but can also be referred to in other parts of the book as well. And looking at John 17:21-23 it helps us see the proper context of this statement, "I and the Father are one."

And you can quote a handful of out-of-context proof texts and prove, in your mind, almost anything. All the while ignoring the verses which do not support your assumptions/presuppositions such as the, at least, 62 vss. which address or refer to Jesus as, YHWH or Theos, God. Here are 36 vss, without any so-called unscriptural words or man made doctrines.

[1] Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

[2] Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The father of eternity, The Prince of Peace.

[3] Luk 7:16 And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people.

[4] Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

[5] Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

[6] Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

[7] Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

[8] Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten God, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

[9] John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

[10] Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

[11] Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

[12] Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, [Amen, Amen] I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

[13] John 12:41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him. [Is 6:1, 10]

[14] Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

[15] Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

[16] Joh 17:10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

[17] Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

[18] Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he [God] hath purchased with his own blood.

[19] Rom 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

[20] 2 Cor 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

[21] Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

[22] Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

[23] Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

[24] Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

[25] Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he [God] saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

[26] Heb 3:3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.
4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.

[27] Phi 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

[28] 1 Tim 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

[29] 1 Tim 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;

[30] 1 Tim 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords[Rev 17:14];

[31] Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

[32] 2 Pet 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

[33] 1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

[34] Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful. [1 Tim 6:15]

[35] Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS[1 Tim 6:15].

[36] Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.​

Sure we have a man who goes around forgiving peoples sins and miraculously curing them of their infirmities. The unbelieving Jews were blind to the fact that Jesus was sent from God as Messiah. They didn't understand that this man, Jesus of Nazareth, was given all authority from God over mankind. They didn't understand that he was the Son of God. So naturally the Jews wanting swift action against Jesus accuse him of making himself out to be God. Jesus never claimed to be God. He just spoke the Wisdom of God. Thus, one can see why Jesus may have been mistakenly perceived to be pretending to be God.

This is your unsupported opinion of what, according to your assumptions/presuppositions, you think the various texts mean. Twice, in John 8 and again in John 10 the priests, scribes, and Pharisees attempted to desecrate the most sacred place which ever existed in Israel by murdering Jesus in the temple and violating at least 23 other laws in the process. Even John recognized that Jesus was claiming to be God.

Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.​

 

[Der Alte]

Trust me if Jesus was God then John would have made that abundantly clear. Instead, what John makes clear is that Jesus is a man.

And throughout his gospel John made it abundantly clear that Jesus was God, see my post above.

It is argued by trinitarians that John wrote his gospel to prove that Jesus is God despite what John himself wrote here:

A deliberate and malicious falsification of what any Trinitarian doctrine teaches.

You believe Jesus Christ is the Logos and you believe that Jesus Christ is God. So all I did was replace those terms with the word God. After all they are synonymous according to trinitarians.

Don't replace anything with anything! If you want to discuss what Trinitarians believe and teach quote them exactly don't make up your own meanings. See my first reply in the post above

The father is God but he is NOT the son or the holy spirit. The Son is God but he is NOT the father or the holy spirit. The Holy Spirit is God but he is NOT the son or the father.<loop>​

Can you cite any scripture which states "God gave God authority?"

You are misunderstanding me. I'll try again. I can't cite that exact quote, but that was not my intention anyway. I'm trying to illustrate to you that God gave Jesus authority as stated in Scripture:

I am not misunderstanding anything. You are deliberately misrepresenting Trinitarian teaching. When you do that you will NEVER be truthful or correct. I agree that the father gave the son authority.

And since you believe that Jesus is God then the above passage can be understood as God giving God authority. Understand?

I understand you continue to deliberately twist and misrepresent what Trinitarians believe. I understand the scripture exactly as they are written without substituting any word for any other word.

Sure as far as things that are not explained or explainable they are mysteries.

Good, that is a step in the right direction. Finite, imperfect man can never have a full and complete understanding of the infinite, perfect God.

Isa 55:8-9
(8) For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
(9) For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts [higher] than your thoughts.

Isa 64:4 For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him.

Eph 3:20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,

1Co 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.​

 

[Der Alte]

Trust me if Jesus was God then John would have made that abundantly clear. Instead, what John makes clear is that Jesus is a man.[ . . . ]

[SIZE=+1]Any time someone says "Trust me", to me, I check all my pockets because that is usually a prelude to something dishonest. As I said before here are twenty six (26) passages from the O.T. in which &#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;/YHWH is acting or speaking, when these verses are quoted in the N.T., Jesus is the one acting or speaking. These verses identify Jesus as &#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;/YHWH

[1] Isa 40:3 ¶ The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD [&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;], make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

N.T. reference.
Matt 3:3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. [Mk 1:3, Lk 3:4, John 1:23]

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[2] Ps 8:1 ¶ <<To the chief Musician upon Gittith, A Psalm of David.>> O LORD [&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;] our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens.
2 Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger.

N.T. reference.
Matt 21:15 And when the chief priests and scribes saw the wonderful things that he did, and the children crying in the temple, and saying, Hosanna to the Son of David; they were sore displeased,
16 And said unto him, Hearest thou what these say? And Jesus saith unto them, Yea; have ye never read, Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise?

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[3] Ps 68:18 You have ascended on high; you have carried away captives; you have taken gifts in the form of men, Yes, even the stubborn ones, to reside among them, O Jah God." ("Jah" is an abbreviated form of the name Jehovah.)

N.T. reference.
Eph 4:7-10: "Now to each one of us undeserved kindness was given according to how the Christ measured out the free gift. Wherefore he says: 'When he ascended on high he carried away captives; he gave gifts in men.' Now the expression 'he ascended,' what does it mean but that he also descended into the lower regions, that is, the earth? The very one that descended is also the one that ascended far above all the heavens, that he might give fulness to all things."

<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><​

[4] Mal 3:1 ¶ Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD [&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492; ] of hosts.

N.T. reference.
Luk 1:76 And thou, child, [John] shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord [Jesus] to prepare his ways;

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[5] Isa 10:33 Behold, the Lord, the LORD [&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;] of hosts, shall lop the bough with terror: and the high ones of stature shall be hewn down, and the haughty shall be humbled.

N.T. reference.
Rom 9:28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.

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[6] Isa 49:23 And kings shall be thy nursing fathers, and their queens thy nursing mothers: they shall bow down to thee with their face toward the earth, and lick up the dust of thy feet; and thou shalt know that I am the LORD [&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;]: for they shall not be ashamed that wait for me.

N.T. reference.
Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him [the Lord Jesus vs. 9] shall not be ashamed.

1 Pet 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

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[7] Joel 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD [&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;] shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD [&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;] hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD [&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;] shall call.

N.T. reference.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord [Jesus vs. 9] shall be saved.

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[8] Isa 45:23 I [&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492; vs. 21, 24] have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

N.T. reference.
Rom 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, [Christ, vs. 10] every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

Philip 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

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[9] Jer 9:24 But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD [&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;] which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth:for in these things I delight, saith the LORD [&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;] .

N.T. reference.
1 Cor 1:31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord. [Christ, vs. 30]

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[10] Num 16:5 And he spake unto Korah and unto all his company, saying, Even to morrow the LORD [&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;] will shew who are his, and who is holy; and will cause him to come near unto him: even him whom he hath chosen will he cause to come near unto him.

N.T. reference.
2 Tim 2:19 ¶ Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

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[11] Ps 130:8 And he shall redeem Israel from all his iniquities.

N.T. reference.
Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

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[12] Ps 97:7 Confounded be all they that serve graven images, that boast themselves of idols: worship him, all ye gods.

N.T. reference.
Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

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[13] Ps 45:6 ¶ Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.

N.T. reference.
Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

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[14] Ps 102:25 Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.
26 They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:
27 But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end

[15] Isa 51:6 Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation [&#1497;&#1513;&#1473;&#1493;&#1506;&#1492;] /Yeshuah] shall be for ever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished.

N.T. reference.
Heb 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, [[Jesus/&#1497;&#1513;&#1473;&#1493;&#1506;] /Yeshua, vss. 2, 5, 8, 9] in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

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[16] Ps 34:8 O taste and see that the LORD [&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;] is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him.

N.T. reference.
1 Pet 2:3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.

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[17] Isa 8:13 Sanctify the LORD [&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;] of hosts himself; and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread.

N.T. reference.
1 Pet 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: [Christ, vs. 16]

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[18] Zech 12:10 And I [&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;] will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me [&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;] whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

N.T. reference.
Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

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[19] Jer 17:10 I the LORD [&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;] search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

N.T. reference.
Rev 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

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[20] Ps 62:12 Also unto thee, O Lord, belongeth mercy: for thou renderest to every man according to his work.

[21] Isa 40:10 Behold, the Lord GOD [&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;] will come with strong hand, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him.

[22]Isa 41:4 Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, [&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;] the first, and with the last; I am he.

[23]Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD [&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;] the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD [&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;] of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

[24]Isa 48:12 Hearken unto me [&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;] O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.

[25] Isa 62:11 Behold, the LORD [&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;] hath proclaimed unto the end of the world, Say ye to the daughter of Zion, Behold, thy salvation [&#1497;&#1513;&#1493;&#1506;&#1492;/Yeshuah] cometh; behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him.

N.T. reference.
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, (Isa 40:10, 62:11), to give every man according as his work (Ps 62:12, 34:8) shall be.
13 I [Jesus/&#1497;&#1513;&#1493;&#1506;/Yeshua] am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. (Isa 41:4, 44:6, 48:12)

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[26] Isa 6:1 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. . .
10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

N.T. reference.
Joh 12:39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. (Is 6:10)
41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him. (Isa 6:1)​

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[Dionysiou]

look guys we all know that in the bible it talks about God the father, God the Son and the Holy Spirit or Spirit of God. Most people who refer to the "Trinity" are simply putting them on the same page. We know that they are different from one another but somehow connected. It doesnt really matter how you look at it as long as you are aware of all of them, respecting each part and the role they play.

 

[ripple the car]

look guys we all know that in the bible it talks about God the father, God the Son and the Holy Spirit or Spirit of God. Most people who refer to the "Trinity" are simply putting them on the same page. We know that they are different from one another but somehow connected. It doesnt really matter how you look at it as long as you are aware of all of them, respecting each part and the role they play.

hey, that's a nice answer.

 

[ripple the car]

oh my goodness....

The Trinity: Doctrine, Development, and Definition

holy cow. guys, please do read the above. it is pretty darn amazing, very well argued, cited, and explained.

if you have gone through the entire, or parts of, the article series, what did you think? personally, i'm kind of bowled over. in a good way.

 

[Gareth]

Here is something for everyone to ponder on. When he was in the Garden of Gestheneme Jesus was praying intensely. Who was he praying to? Some supporters of the trinity theory state Jesus was God and man at the same time. This idea is not supported by the Bible. Further if true, it makes a nonsense of what Jesus was saying to his Father, and added to this it makes no sense that an angel should be sent to him to strengthen him. Why would an angel be sent to strengthen God? Why does God need an angel to help him? Further, when being arrested, he told Peter he could if he wished entreat his Father to sent legions of angels to his aid? Why entreat his Father if he was God already? The clear indication of all these things and many more from the Bible is that Jesus was and still is, inferior to someone else.

 

[ripple the car]

Here is something for everyone to ponder on. When he was in the Garden of Gestheneme Jesus was praying intensely. Who was he praying to? Some supporters of the trinity theory state Jesus was God and man at the same time. This idea is not supported by the Bible. Further if true, it makes a nonsense of what Jesus was saying to his Father, and added to this it makes no sense that an angel should be sent to him to strengthen him. Why would an angel be sent to strengthen God? Why does God need an angel to help him? Further, when being arrested, he told Peter he could if he wished entreat his Father to sent legions of angels to his aid? Why entreat his Father if he was God already? The clear indication of all these things and many more from the Bible is that Jesus was and still is, inferior to someone else.

Woden i suggest, if interested, that you read the link above.

it affirms that there is One God, invisible and Spirit, whom we call Father. and that the Son is under and from the Father, yet also explains how Jesus can say "if you know seen and known Me, you have seen and known the Father" (John 14:6-9).

the Son is co-eternal with the Father, begotten of the Father, of one being with the Father, and so is substantially the same as God, while under Him, and who became incarnate as a Man, and hence still able to talk and adore the Father in heaven.

it's worth reading, and basically reconciles what you are asking with the idea of Jesus' divinity, humanity, and nature.