Trinity is wrong.

wayseer said:

What you acknowledge is universalism and is not Christian doctrine.

It is part of the warm cuddly new age theology that says 'you'r ok, I'm ok, we're all ok'.

Don't swallow Stranger's syrupy words and catchy phrases.

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you must be reading to much to my post, i merely spelt out what i think stranger's belief was since others have a hard time figuring it out.

if you disagree, be objective. making wholesale categorization only muddled the discussion. what would be the defined standard to say a belief is christian doctrine or not? your set of beliefs?

i noticed in discussion like this the attitude that they think they are the only one sincere to seek and understand the true meaning of god's word and all others are biased in their interpretation according to their preferred beliefs. orthodoxy is a number game.

this attitude at best is self serving and self validating.
and at worst it is self delusional.

hybrid said:

you must be reading to much to my post, i merely spelt out what i think stranger's belief was since others have a hard time figuring it out.

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Exactly. So, being yourself so well acquainted with Strager's beliefs, what does he believe?

if you disagree, be objective.

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I'll be about objective as one can get.

For those who are confounded by Stranger's post consider the following -

Stranger does not exhibit any Christian icon as required by the rules of the Theology boards.

Stranger does not mention the word 'Christianity' - well not that I can see here on this thread or elsewhere. (He is active on more than one thread).

Stranger does not mention anything about God's commandment to love.

Stranger will neither confirm nor deny that he is a Christian.

The 'standards' set for being a Christian are set out in the rules on CF. Perhaps you could make yourself conversant with them - Stranger has apparently not read them either.

Quote from Stranger

Why have faith in divided doctrines that sinners teach when one has the scripture written by saints

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The Bible clearly teaches we are all sinners and fall short of the glory of God. Even as the authors put pen to paper they were yet sinners. Universalism is what Stranger is preaching - and universalism is not recognized Christian theology.

i noticed in discussion like this the attitude that they think they are the only one sincere to seek and understand the true meaning of god's word and all others are biased in their interpretation according to their preferred beliefs.

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Well, Theology is a thread for debate - we all debate from our own perspective - that's why we have a theology thread because none of us have it right.

this attitude at best is self serving and self validating.
and at worst it is self delusional.

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Stranger can correct me at any time and I'm more than happy to be proved wrong - I would be delighted to be proved wrong. In such an event I will cheerfully and unconditionally apologize. To date Stranger has not made any such statement.

dear people,
we can have a thread on the various 'universalisms' if you like, but this is a thread about the mistakes that gave rise to the idea of 'trinity' , it is way beyond the scope of this thread and thus against the rules to discuss 'universalisms' many versions here... so let's go elsewhere to do so.

Contrary to the belief expressed by some above, there is no need for anyone to display icons , one can optionally turn them off in one's CP ... for myself it is very apparent that there are not enough icons to even vaguely represent the range of beliefs vaguely labeled as 'christianity' in total disregard of what the saints called naming the name [i.e. purpose] of Christ ... anyone who even briefly read my contribution would know that I use the words of Jesus and the saints continually, and indeed seldom use anything else ... now please, it is NOT allowed here to discuss each other, let us go back to the topic... if you want to talk to anyone there are methods here , please stop messing up the thread ... if you want to open a thread on universalism or any other tangent topic that arises from our discussion here then you are free to do so , but not here...

Now please get back to discussing 'trinity' , someone tell me why one should want to count beyond ONE in counting God, what possible benefit?

FYI since some seem interested ,there is a discussion on what is a Christian here :
http://www.christianforums.com/t7358855/

Keep the rules, discuss the topic [preferably using scripture], stop publicly discussing the people here, it is rude, offensive unchristian and often simply mistaken prejudgment without even asking ... if you want to talk to folks use the PM system , but you are required to respect people on the whole site, keep your fantasies, judgments, and presuppositions to yourself until you are perfect. For now it is enough that God loves you and Jesus loves you for me to love you too ...that is the christian way ..

I dunno why you think you are allowed to express extreme disrespect and abuse of others here, but you are not ... you must stop this or you will be stopped

consider if Jesus would talk to others the way you do , and you think you follw him by such outrageous behaviour with no basis whatever for the ad hominem attacks you write?

There are certainly more than 35 divisions of christianity , there are more than 10.000...

Reconsider your behaviour as it is not christian ,and not allowed here.

Judge yourself and forget about judging others [without even any evidence]

Luke 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged:

1 Corinthians 11:31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.

Now seriously, STOP your abusive attacks ...they have no place here, nor in any Christian.

stranger said:

I dunno why you think you are allowed to express extreme disrespect and abuse of others here, but you are not ... you must stop this or you will be stopped

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You have threatened to 'stop' me on more than one occasion. I have not abused you. I have questioned you ideology. Is there some reason I should be alarmed by your threats other than you find it somewhat uncomfortable in being so challenged.

Perhaps your persistent threats to 'stop' me is more of an abuse than you care to admit.

wayseer said:

You have threatened to 'stop' me on more than one occasion. I have not abused you. I have questioned you ideology. Is there some reason I should be alarmed by your threats other than you find it somewhat uncomfortable in being so challenged.

Perhaps your persistent threats to 'stop' me is more of an abuse than you care to admit.

Click to expand...

You have abused me repeatedly and it is not I who will now judge your behavour and stop you, but the admin staff, using site rules that you agreed to abide to but now ignore. Re-read your own abusive words and slurs in black and white , and seriously consider that Jesus would never behave like that.

You haven't "questioned" me, you have made extremely rude unsubstantiated accusations against me , ad homnem attacks and slurs for no reason whatever and with no evidence or support from scripture [which I have done throughout].

I do not mind discussing in civil manner in orderly way in the appropriate place, but you decline to do so and just rant abuse publicly without any coherent discussion of any point.

I have asked you to stop and you have not, so i am forced to ask admin to apply the rules that you once agreed to keep and stop you breaking them ... sorry, but you cannot indulge your meaningless venom on people around here and get away with it endlessly.

ok I'll take a shot at a Stranger thread.

stranger said:

Jesus was the first, and for a while the only son of God resurrected from death , it does not mean God is dead and it isn't a theology , it is simply what scripture says.

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I don't know what your doctrine is on only begotten son, it appears that you believe that Jesus was begotten of god when he was resurrected.

stranger said:

There are many sons of God both before an after Jesus , not least the prodigal son of God :-

Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

the left-hand covering cherub at the very throne of God , looking just like Logos standing at the right hand of God , just as the antichrist resembles the Christ but has a very different role in God's plan, both having the face of a man , both dying mortal deaths [Ezek 28, Isaiah 14]

It really makes no sense to count sons of God, but counting only one of them is just like taking one orange from a bag of oranges and saying it shows there is only one orange... why count at all, it helps one not a jot , but if one must count then count them all, good luck cos' they are innurerable and all look the same as Jesus , in his very image... you won't know which to pick if you want to stop counting having only looked for one [sorry, a bit of scriptural humour on a truth few yet acknowledge, maybe you don't see the funny side of it yet ]:-

Click to expand...

where did this counting sons of God come from? Is there some point to all this? What did I say that makes you think I count sons of God? Well the usher counts heads at church service, is that a bad?

stranger said:

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

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And? sorry but I don't see anything to respond to.
__________________
Behold, He withholdeth the waters, and they dry up: also He sendeth them out, and they overturn the earth.
With Him is strength and wisdom: the deceived and the deceiver are His.
He leadeth counsellors away spoiled, and maketh the judges fools.
[Job 12:15-17]

here's another stanger doctrine.

stranger said:

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Acts 13:32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers,
33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead,...

Jesus is only the first begotten of the dead, the first resurrected and taken [translated] ... just the first of many sons of god, all images of him, just the same, sons begotten of God at Jesus' return

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ah ha. you say here we are begotten at his return, but you quote scripture saying Jesus is begotten from the dead. I counter with.

1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

If you believe that Jesus is the christ you are born of God, I believe so I am born of God now. plus we are b egotten by the word of god, which causes us to be born of God.

1 Corinthians 4:15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

So these scriptures show your doctrine that we are begotten when christ returns to be false.

stranger said:

and seriously consider that Jesus would never behave like that.

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No; Jesus would have said something like, 'Let the dead bury the dead', and then would have been reported to the local Pharisee gestapo squad by those who feel uncomfortable when challenged. So, please don't hold back - report me.

wayseer said:

No; Jesus would have said something like, 'Let the dead bury the dead', and then would have been reported to the local Pharisee gestapo squad by those who feel uncomfortable when challenged. So, please don't hold back - report me.

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You agreed to the rules before being allowed to post here ... they aren't the law of love, but we submit to them because we said we would , jsut as Jesus told us to submit to authority on earth even though he criticised the hypocrisy of that authority...

This place simply becomes meaningless if you cannot discuss in civil manner without personal attacks on those you discuss with ... I asked you to stop and you refused , so it has to be taken to the next level, just as in scripture ... I am sorry that you will not receive full justice thatway, but you could have administered justice to yourself instead, it was your choice to ignore my witness to you of your unacceptable behavour in attacking me instead of discussing the topic... I am sad that you refuse to listen and judge yourself wisely and fairly , it would have been better if you had , but you chose to not do so.

No-one is your judge but God Himself , but if you break rules which you have agreed to keep, and refuse to stop when politely reminded, then what can anyone else do to help you see your mistake ?

You still have the option to go back and review what you said , repent to God if you feel it appropriate, and delete what you did not mean to say ... then admin will have no evidence against you [for I will happily delete my replies as well , and forgive your attacks if you repent at least as far as making your posts to comply with site rules] ... again, it is your choice , admin have no great desire to have to do it for you and think up some way of dealing out some restriction on you to stop you repeating your attacks on folks who came here to talk, not to be pre-judged by a sinner and attacked.

2ducklow said:

ok I'll take a shot at a Stranger thread.

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I don't know what your doctrine is on only begotten son, it appears that you believe that Jesus was begotten of god when he was resurrected.

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I don't have a doctrine , I use the scripture instead of religious doctrine, it is better that way, truly.

Please explain why you would even want to know WHEN Jesus was 'begotten' , how does it help anything to know when ?

where did this counting sons of God come from? Is there some point to all this? What did I say that makes you think I count sons of God? Well the usher counts heads at church service, is that a bad?
And? sorry but I don't see anything to respond to.

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The scripture speaks of many sons of God , the divisive , but otherwise uninformative, 'doctrine' of trinity , counts one of them and fails to cont the others ... if one counts them all in this strange counting game of 'aspects' of God, then one does not get three as the answer ... [see my earlier posts in this thread for more details]
__________________
Behold, He withholdeth the waters, and they dry up: also He sendeth them out, and they overturn the earth.
With Him is strength and wisdom: the deceived and the deceiver are His.
He leadeth counsellors away spoiled, and maketh the judges fools.
[Job 12:15-17] [/quote]

stranger said:

I don't have a doctrine , I use the scripture instead of religious doctrine, it is better that way, truly.

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You do have a doctrine, you just refuse to state what it is and leave it to us to try and figure out what your doctrine is based on your comments on scriptures. which makes it very confusing to debate with you. Doctrine is not a bad thing it is absolutely necessary. Jesus had a doctrine.

Matthew 7:28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:

scripture is profitable for doctrine.

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:


So the bible says we should have a doctrine and you say we shouldn't have a doctrine.

stranger said:

Please explain why you would even want to know WHEN Jesus was 'begotten' , how does it help anything to know when ?

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The bible says Jesus was begotten by God in Mary's womb. It is important to know when Jesus was begotten for the same reason it is important to know that Jesus was born. It all testifys to his humanity.

(Darby) Matthew 1:20 but while he pondered on these things, behold, an angel of [the] Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, Joseph, son of David, fear not to take to [thee] Mary, thy wife, for that which is begotten in her is of [the] Holy Spirit.

you say just believe scripture. so just believe matthew 1.20 that says when Jesus was begotten. He was begotten in her (Mary).

stranger said:

The scripture speaks of many sons of God , the divisive , but otherwise uninformative, 'doctrine' of trinity , counts one of them and fails to cont the others ... if one counts them all in this strange counting game of 'aspects' of God, then one does not get three as the answer ... [see my earlier posts in this thread for more details]

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I really don't follow what you are saying very well here. So I won't comment on it as I have no idea what you are getting at.

2ducklow said:

You do have a doctrine, you just refuse to state what it is and leave it to us to try and figure out what your doctrine is based on your comments on scriptures. which makes it very confusing to debate with you. Doctrine is not a bad thing it is absolutely necessary. Jesus had a doctrine.

Matthew 7:28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:

scripture is profitable for doctrine.

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

So the bible says we should have a doctrine and you say we shouldn't have a doctrine.

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I ave not suggested you should not have a doctrine , the diverse contradictory doctrines of sinners' religions are absolutely necessary to God's plan, and many have to hold them else God's plan would not work, h whole world would not end up worshiping Satan as though he were the Christ [Rev 13:3-4] (bar only the few of Matt 7:14, those who give up sin, saints)

If you wish me to state my doctrine as the whole of {original) scripture of god, as Jesus identified, then I am happy to do so , but I feel that might be misunderstood by some in more modern context of usage of the word [by sinners, cos' they outnumber saints by at least 80,000 to one]

So you see that I do have a 'doctrine' which maybe you do know, ad maybe you think your doctrine is better than mine... seriously it matters not , Jesus and the saints both prophesy that very few will follow the scripture and most will follow false doctrines, eventually united by Satan into one big whoppper , enough to satisfy every single sinner in the world that Satan is their god and saviour , the Christ ... only a few will know he is not Jesus returned, that he is not the Messiah of Israel.

The bible says Jesus was begotten by God in Mary's womb. It is important to know when Jesus was begotten for the same reason it is important to know that Jesus was born. It all testifys to his humanity.

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I think his death testifies his humanity beyond question , doesn't it? But i am at a loss as to what difference it would make had he not been mortal, would that have made an iota of difference to anything? [apart from perhaps people not believing that they could follow him by stopping sinning if he had not shown that as a human he could do so ... oh, hang on, religious sinners don't believe that do they? ]

you say just believe scripture. so just believe matthew 1.20 that says when Jesus was begotten. He was begotten in her (Mary).

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No problem ... but you haven't said why you think it matters at all ... it truly doesn't seem to affect anything except the way some sinners reject other sinners for questioning it ... why divide people over things that truly make no difference to ,say ,salvation?

Imean, suppose, just for sake of argument that Jesus were Joseph's son, that would not prevent him becoming a son of God, just like the saints... so why bother with dividing sinners religiously over it, is it that important or is it really of no great significance to anything except the historical record?

I call JW. The cheapening of Jesus, continual references to 'sons of god', placing numbers on saint : sinners ratio, and the belief in satan being an actual supernatural being.

Am I right?

k2svpete said:

I call JW. The cheapening of Jesus, continual references to 'sons of god', placing numbers on saint : sinners ratio, and the belief in satan being an actual supernatural being.
Am I right?

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You could not be more wrong, I believe in the truth behind the scripture and it explains the apostasy of all world religion [including JW] ...perhaps you picked up the religious spin that one must belong to this or that denomination , but I didn't ... I never joined any religion ,cult, sect, denomination in my whole life , I just studied the bible some 30 years because I was moved by what Jesus says in it , some things are strange at first, intriguing until one nows why Jesus came first only for the House of Israel, came to bring division, no peace, came to save all sinners but first takes but a few become saints, every created being will confess to God and accept Jesus as Lord ... the scripture says these awesome things and far more, no denomination I know even comes close to saying what scripture says... truly men choose between sinners' religion for sinners or following Jesus into ceasing from being unloving [sin], obviously one cannot do both ...

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

stranger said:

I ave not suggested you should not have a doctrine , the diverse contradictory doctrines of sinners' religions are absolutely necessary to God's plan, and many have to hold them else God's plan would not work, h whole world would not end up worshiping Satan as though he were the Christ [Rev 13:3-4] (bar only the few of Matt 7:14, those who give up sin, saints)[/qutoe] this is a good example of why it is so frustrating talking to you. First you boast that you have no doctrine unlike all us other christians, cause you have the higher ground. then you say doctrine isn't bad, when I show you scriptures about doctrine. So now I conclude from these statements of yours that your doctrine is that everyone else can have doctrines, but the doctrines they have are wrong, and the only one that has it right is the one without a doctrine, which is you.


So, according to you Doctrine is good, but everyone who has doctrine has false doctrine. So you don't have doctrine, unlike most every other christian does.

quote=stranger]

If you wish me to state my doctrine as the whole of {original) scripture of god, as Jesus identified, then I am happy to do so ,

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Everyone and his mother believes the whole of the orginial scriptures of God. you just equate your interpretations of scriputre with what the scripture actually says so that you conclude your doctrine is scripture. the bible says 'begotten from the dead" so you conclude all verses using the word begotten refer to the resurrection from the dead, and call it believeing scripture when in fact it is your theology. I've seen others do this as well though, not with your belief system but with theirs.

stranger said:

but I feel that might be misunderstood by some in more modern context of usage of the word [by sinners, cos' they outnumber saints by at least 80,000 to one]

So you see that I do have a 'doctrine' which maybe you do know, ad maybe you think your doctrine is better than mine... seriously it matters not , Jesus and the saints both prophesy that very few will follow the scripture and most will follow false doctrines, eventually united by Satan into one big whoppper , enough to satisfy every single sinner in the world that Satan is their god and saviour , the Christ ... only a few will know he is not Jesus returned, that he is not the Messiah of Israel.



I think his death testifies his humanity beyond question , doesn't it? But i am at a loss as to what difference it would make had he not been mortal, would that have made an iota of difference to anything? [apart from perhaps people not believing that they could follow him by stopping sinning if he had not shown that as a human he could do so ... oh, hang on, religious sinners don't believe that do they? ]



No problem ... but you haven't said why you think it matters at all ... it truly doesn't seem to affect anything except the way some sinners reject other sinners for questioning it ... why divide people over things that truly make no difference to ,say ,salvation?

Imean, suppose, just for sake of argument that Jesus were Joseph's son, that would not prevent him becoming a son of God, just like the saints... so why bother with dividing sinners religiously over it, is it that important or is it really of no great significance to anything except the historical record?

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really all this is a tangled up mess to me, So tangled up that I feel it is impossible to unravel.

Yeah, well, the fact that religion [of all kinds] is divided, shows how little of it can logically be true ... and if not true then equally obviously it is of Satan, so what can one expect of religion but a tangled mass of wily deceits ... this is what stops one just reading scripture as it is meant to be [was?] ... thus the task is to integrate scripture into a whole [else if it is not a whole then it isn't the word of god anyway] ... that menas checking everything against everything else ... it takes years , and always the temptation of Satan is to believe someone else , a sinner [for who can find a saint these days to believe reliably]

Eventually, if one is to be a saint in this life, God will baptise one Himself, to know all trth and the future [John 16:13] , something He promises to all [Joel 2:28] but clearly most already died without it, itdoesn't happen then in this life...

so what is God doing baptising resurrected sinners if not toward their salvation... yet it ain't what any christianity today teaches, only what was taught by saints and prophets in the past..

seriously then the slog to teh truth is a long had bind trek until God moves in, and He requires but 144,000 at first ,out of 12 billion that ever lived , to run His kingdom under Jesus and begin the work of saving countless many [Rev 7:9-10] ... Jesus tells us that the many are saved there, but we know only a few find the way in this life [Matt 7:14] ... again you won't fnd any religin of sinners that teaches this, but the bible is very clear indeed...

many indeed say that they believe the bible when what they believe is whatever sinners teach in their group within divided religious tradition ... Jesus says the whole world will worship Satan the dragon [as a Christ, as a god, not as the adversary of god] - Rev 13:3-4 - the few alone resisting the power of evil , just because God baptised them , cos' He requires them to mnister from the beginning inthe next phase of redemption [of the many, as Jesus says]

It ain't that hard then ti use scripture to show that religion of sinners does not believe the whole scripture because they do not teach things consistent with what Jesus and teh saints very clearly say in scripture ... it is a beginning then to escape Satans clutch at least by rejecting obviously false modern religion by using the scripture... very many clearly will not, will not even want to ...

stranger said:

Yeah, well, the fact that religion [of all kinds] is divided, shows how little of it can logically be true ... and if not true then equally obviously it is of Satan, so what can one expect of religion but a tangled mass of wily deceits ... this is what stops one just reading scripture as it is meant to be [was?] ... thus the task is to integrate scripture into a whole [else if it is not a whole then it isn't the word of god anyway] ... that menas checking everything against everything else ... it takes years , and always the temptation of Satan is to believe someone else , a sinner [for who can find a saint these days to believe reliably

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There are probably a million different ways to put all the scriptures together, your way is just one of many. ONe needs the holy spirit to guide one into knowingwhether god meant a verse literally or figueratively or which verse fits with which other verse. Doctrine isn't laid out in scripture it's here a little and there a little. it's all over the map, that's why there are so many different inteprretations, including yours, out there.

all churches have at least some truth if they believe the word of God. some follow the leading of the holy spirit more than others into all truth. ONe day god will in his own time have one body that all believes exactly the same thing. YOur views are just one of millions of views on any number of topics. No one has a complete 100 percent correct understanding of what everyverse in the bible means. I have changed my mind numerous times in the past almost 40 years I've been a christian as God has led me into more and more truth. And he continues to lead me as he does others. some continue to follow, some get at a place where they feel comfortable anddecide to camp there. I feel I'm following god into more truth. Of course you think you got it all right on every scripture right? if so then god doesn't need to lead you into anymore truth does he? If he does then that means some of the things you believe are false, othersiwe if everything you believe is true then god can't lead you into more truth. and thisverse has no meaningto you.

''And he shall guide you into all truth."

stranger said:

Eventually, if one is to be a saint in this life, God will baptise one Himself, to know all trth and the future [John 16:13] , something He promises to all [Joel 2:28] but clearly most already died without it, itdoesn't happen then in this life...

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so you interpret it to mean that we shouldn't baptise anyone, but of course that isn't your interpretation its' what those scriptures you quoted actually says correct? cause you don't have doctrine you have only scripture, according to you. Do you knowhow ridiculous that comes across to everyone besides yourself?

stranger said:

so what is God doing baptising resurrected sinners if not toward their salvation... yet it ain't what any christianity today teaches, only what was taught by saints and prophets in the past..

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more of your doctrinal interpretation. the bible says "baptise in the holy spirit'' and you expand that to every verse about baptism refers to baptism in the holy spirit. Your interpretation which you call just scripture cause you don't got no doctrine just scripture.

stranger said:

seriously then the slog to teh truth is a long had bind trek until God moves in, and He requires but 144,000 at first ,out of 12 billion that ever lived , to run His kingdom under Jesus and begin the work of saving countless many [Rev 7:9-10] ... Jesus tells us that the many are saved there, but we know only a few find the way in this life [Matt 7:14] ... again you won't fnd any religin of sinners that teaches this, but the bible is very clear indeed...

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you won't find anyone teaching this except you, not any other christians, and the bible doesn't say it you do. you justequate whatever you believe a verse means to be what it actually says, so you can boast that you and you alone have no doctrine only we do only we other christians all have false doctrine on everything that you disagree with us on.

2ducklow said:

There are probably a million different ways to put all the scriptures together, your way is just one of many.

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In fact there is only one way compatible with every word of God , it is the way of love, giving up all unlovingness [sin] and that is not the way proposed in modern Christianity .

The mistake is easy to uncover, the spin goes that on is OK to sin if one believes in Jesus ,,, it is doublespeak because Jesus commanded all those who follow him to love , and sin is simply breaking that command , being unloving in any way ... thus pretending one believes Jesus yet continuing to sin is simply fooling oneself ... a lord is someone one obeys , yet almost all Christians say Jesus is their lord but disobey him by sinning ... it is rather clear then, and repeated in scripture many ways , one must be a saint, to stop sinning, to follow Jesus ... thus one can eliminate all the tens of thousands of stories invented by sinners to try to latch on to grace and Jesus , because Jesus himself makes it plain that he will take no sinners , none, not even those who cry out "Lord, Lord" , because they disobey him by sinning ...

So read it and see what Jesus and the saints say VERY CLEARLY... be in n doubt that religion has gone astray just as Jesus and the saints said it must do :-

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

One can stop being evil, stop following Satan, stop sinning, just by removing every unlovingness from one's life , Jesus and the saints showed that it can be done and that God will complete the transformation, baptise personally with all His truth and knowledge of the future [John 16:13]

Proverbs 16:6 By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear of the LORD men depart from evil.

Christianity today teaches in the mouths of sinners that this is impossible, despite that Jesus and the saints showed that it isn't ... one has to decide whether to follow religion of sinners or to follow Jesus and the saints and prophets of God... itis all too common to not bother checking up and just accept what sinners teach these days in place of Jesus in diverse churches with diverse teachings...

One needs the holy spirit to guide one into knowing whether god meant a verse literally or figueratively or which verse fits with which other verse. Doctrine isn't laid out in scripture it's here a little and there a little. it's all over the map, that's why there are so many different inteprretations, including yours, out there.

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so religion would have one believe, but one does not need a sinner to teach one what "depart from iniquity" means ... they almost all agree that its OK to sin if you just believe what they say and ignore what these words say about it being the very foundation of God [in the mouth of a saint, not a sinner]

Again the saint tells us that all the private interpretations are wrong , so just read it for yourself and pray to god that He opens your eyes to see what is very clearly written ... 'depart from iniquity' ... you know what it means , why pretend you don't ????

2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

all churches have at least some truth if they believe the word of God. some follow the leading of the holy spirit more than others into all truth.

This one scripture [amongst many others] shows that all Christianity has lost the foundational truth of God , Jesus will not acknowledge and take anyone who is still a sinner by time of his return [or their death if sooner]

Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

What can one say to those who cannot see what it says ,its of no use inviting Jesus in if one is still sinning, sin is disobedience to him ,he is not the lord of sinners, he will not take sinners when he comes ...

So reda the new covenant [Heb 8:8-12] and read what it says very carefully , it says that it is only with those whose 'fathers' broke the old covenant , the House of Judah (Jews) and the lost (paganised) House of Israel who disappeared as a nation long before the Jews were scattered but to whom Jesus says he was sent by God , to no-one else :-

Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the House of Israel.

So modern Christianity almost completely ignores that the Messiah was sent ONLY to find one of the two Houses of divided Israel and that these and the Jews are the only ones forgiven in the new covenant of grace , that only those descended from those who broke the old covenant are receivers of grace in this life under Jesus Christ... why?

...because God had to say for sake of prophesying whowould be His priests and kings in the kingdom ... there is no prophecywithout te name ... the one He chose is 'Israel' :-
Ex 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

To becme a nation again, after being divided into the two Houses [lines ,dynasties] of kings , two separated nations, God prophesies that one king will re-unite the two parts of Israel to become a nation of priests ... rather clearly they can only minister to gentiles if the whole nation becomes priests , and that is what Jesus says will later happen [Rev 7:9-10] , many are saved then according to Jesus, but we know only FEW are first saved [Matt 7:14] ... it is not surprising really that God gets the priesthood perfected first , else they would be as bad as the divided priesthoods of this earth, made up of sinners !

Neither christianity ,nor judaism, puts together the whole scripture as Jesus managed to explain it... just check both out against all the scripture ...one has to find out for oneself with prayer and meditation to ask God whatever is not immediately clear and listen for the answers , to integrate oneself to remove unlovingness as one integrates the scripture into a whole and one leaves behind the divided soothsayings and spin of religion led by sinners for sinners to stay sinners...

ONe day god will in his own time have one body that all believes exactly the same thing.

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But first the antichrist will unite all the world in worship of a Chrsit, but the wrong one, the antchrist - Rev 13:3-4

YOur views are just one of millions of views on any number of topics.

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So check out the scriptures I have quoted and see if I am wrong or right... lets talk about what you believe the words mean , see for instance if youthink the words "depart from iniquity" mean anythng but 'stop sinning', 'cease all unlovingness'...

No one has a complete 100 percent correct understanding of what everyverse in the bible means. I have changed my mind numerous times in the past almost 40 years I've been a christian as God has led me into more and more truth. And he continues to lead me as he does others. some continue to follow, some get at a place where they feel comfortable anddecide to camp there. I feel I'm following god into more truth. Of course you think you got it all right on every scripture right? if so then god doesn't need to lead you into anymore truth does he? If he does then that means some of the things you believe are false, othersiwe if everything you believe is true then god can't lead you into more truth. and thisverse has no meaningto you.

''And he shall guide you into all truth."

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So read the scriptures that I quoted in context, in your own bible and tell me what they mean to you ... you will that some scripture simply says one thing, and one really doesn't need any more than to read it and believe that it means what it says to see that religion has got it wrong [as if one couldn't tell anyway by the deep divisions down to individual level that show how little is of the spirit of truth of God]

so you interpret it to mean that we shouldn't baptise anyone, but of course that isn't your interpretation its' what those scriptures you quoted actually says correct? cause you don't have doctrine you have only scripture, according to you. Do you knowhow ridiculous that comes across to everyone besides yourself?

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As Paul pointed out, it doesn't matter who baptises someone , Jesus didn't baptise anyone for instance ... water baptism is just a statement that one is turning around to look toward God, it is spirit baptism by god himself through his own spirit, that brings all truth ... no advantage to anyone to pretend that they know all truth if they don't ... nor does anyone baptised of the spirit need to be taught by anyone, not even by saints, et alone sinners :-

Hebrews 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

which part of these words of Paul do you not understand? They are NOT mine ...!

I am not teaching or preaching my friend, just simply pointing outwhat it says in scripture ... just read what I quoted and see what it says to you , then we can talk about what scripture says to you and compare it with some more scripture ... then you may stop trying t say that what it says comes from me, cos' it will come from you...

stranger said:

In fact there is only one way compatible with every word of God , it is the way of love, giving up all unlovingness [sin] and that is not the way proposed in modern Christeianity .

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It is the way proposed by every church. They don't live fully up to the high goals set for us by God, but neither do you or I or anyone. Of course we all know you think you alone do.

stranger said:

The mistake is easy to uncover, the spin goes that on is OK to sin if one believes in Jesus ,,,

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1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

And you of course are the only person in the entire world who never slips and sins. you are the only person in the entire world who never looses his temper, never never is selfish, never hurts someones feelings , nevergets impatient with people, never fails to do exactly what God tells you to do, never fails in any shape form or fashion. amazing, amazing that you believe that that is.

stranger said:

it is doublespeak because Jesus commanded all those who follow him to love , and sin is simply breaking that command , being unloving in any way

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And you of course are the only one in the world who never does anything unloving.

stranger said:

... thus pretending one believes Jesus yet continuing to sin is simply fooling oneself ... a lord is someone one obeys , yet almost all Christians say Jesus is their lord but disobey him by sinning ... it is rather clear then, and repeated in scripture many ways , one must be a saint, to stop sinning, to follow Jesus ... thus one can eliminate all the tens of thousands of stories invented by sinners to try to latch on to grace and Jesus , because Jesus himself makes it plain that he will take no sinners , none, not even those who cry out "Lord, Lord" , because they disobey him by sinning ...

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and you of course never fail and scommit some kind of sin.

stranger said:

So read it and see what Jesus and the saints say VERY CLEARLY... be in n doubt that religion has gone astray just as Jesus and the saints said it must do :-

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I do not believe that you never sin. no one has achieved perfection yet, including you.

stranger said:

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

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So it's not good enough to do your best to depart from iniquity, we all have to be perfect just like you correct? you the only perfect man in the entire world.

stranger said:

Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

One can stop being evil, stop following Satan, stop sinning, just by removing every unlovingness from one's life , Jesus and the saints showed that it can be done and that God will complete the transformation, baptise personally with all His truth and knowledge of the future [John 16:13]

Proverbs 16:6 By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear of the LORD men depart from evil.

Christianity today teaches in the mouths of sinners that this is impossible, despite that Jesus and the saints showed that it isn't ... one has to decide whether to follow religion of sinners or to follow Jesus and the saints and prophets of God... itis all too common to not bother checking up and just accept what sinners teach these days in place of Jesus in diverse churches with diverse teachings...


so religion would have one believe, but one does not need a sinner to teach one what "depart from iniquity" means ... they almost all agree that its OK to sin if you just believe what they say and ignore what these words say about it being the very foundation of God [in the mouth of a saint, not a sinner]

Again the saint tells us that all the private interpretations are wrong , so just read it for yourself and pray to god that He opens your eyes to see what is very clearly written ... 'depart from iniquity' ... you know what it means , why pretend you don't ????

2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

all churches have at least some truth if they believe the word of God. some follow the leading of the holy spirit more than others into all truth.

This one scripture [amongst many others] shows that all Christianity has lost the foundational truth of God , Jesus will not acknowledge and take anyone who is still a sinner by time of his return [or their death if sooner]

Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

What can one say to those who cannot see what it says ,its of no use inviting Jesus in if one is still sinning, sin is disobedience to him ,he is not the lord of sinners, he will not take sinners when he comes ...

So reda the new covenant [Heb 8:8-12] and read what it says very carefully , it says that it is only with those whose 'fathers' broke the old covenant , the House of Judah (Jews) and the lost (paganised) House of Israel who disappeared as a nation long before the Jews were scattered but to whom Jesus says he was sent by God , to no-one else :-

Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the House of Israel.

So modern Christianity almost completely ignores that the Messiah was sent ONLY to find one of the two Houses of divided Israel and that these and the Jews are the only ones forgiven in the new covenant of grace , that only those descended from those who broke the old covenant are receivers of grace in this life under Jesus Christ... why?

...because God had to say for sake of prophesying whowould be His priests and kings in the kingdom ... there is no prophecywithout te name ... the one He chose is 'Israel' :-
Ex 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

To becme a nation again, after being divided into the two Houses [lines ,dynasties] of kings , two separated nations, God prophesies that one king will re-unite the two parts of Israel to become a nation of priests ... rather clearly they can only minister to gentiles if the whole nation becomes priests , and that is what Jesus says will later happen [Rev 7:9-10] , many are saved then according to Jesus, but we know only FEW are first saved [Matt 7:14] ... it is not surprising really that God gets the priesthood perfected first , else they would be as bad as the divided priesthoods of this earth, made up of sinners !

Neither christianity ,nor judaism, puts together the whole scripture as Jesus managed to explain it... just check both out against all the scripture ...one has to find out for oneself with prayer and meditation to ask God whatever is not immediately clear and listen for the answers , to integrate oneself to remove unlovingness as one integrates the scripture into a whole and one leaves behind the divided soothsayings and spin of religion led by sinners for sinners to stay sinners...



But first the antichrist will unite all the world in worship of a Chrsit, but the wrong one, the antchrist - Rev 13:3-4



So check out the scriptures I have quoted and see if I am wrong or right... lets talk about what you believe the words mean , see for instance if youthink the words "depart from iniquity" mean anythng but 'stop sinning', 'cease all unlovingness'...


So read the scriptures that I quoted in context, in your own bible and tell me what they mean to you ... you will that some scripture simply says one thing, and one really doesn't need any more than to read it and believe that it means what it says to see that religion has got it wrong [as if one couldn't tell anyway by the deep divisions down to individual level that show how little is of the spirit of truth of God]



As Paul pointed out, it doesn't matter who baptises someone , Jesus didn't baptise anyone for instance ... water baptism is just a statement that one is turning around to look toward God, it is spirit baptism by god himself through his own spirit, that brings all truth ... no advantage to anyone to pretend that they know all truth if they don't ... nor does anyone baptised of the spirit need to be taught by anyone, not even by saints, et alone sinners :-

Hebrews 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

which part of these words of Paul do you not understand? They are NOT mine ...!

I am not teaching or preaching my friend, just simply pointing outwhat it says in scripture ... just read what I quoted and see what it says to you , then we can talk about what scripture says to you and compare it with some more scripture ... then you may stop trying t say that what it says comes from me, cos' it will come from you...

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Just more of the same that I've already answered above. stranger the only perfect man in the world and all us sinners gotta be like stranger, cause he and he alone has achieved perfection. Sorry I don't buy it. Just out of curiousity have you ever heard the expression , "He's full of himself."?