Trinity is wrong.

[stranger]

!!!

 

[2ducklow]

This is getting really weird (sex change operations) Judy is not God; nor is she a spirit like God who can manifest Himself.

Wierd theology can only have weird analogies. A man having a sex change operation is no more or less weird than an omnipresent spirit (which is what God is) changing into a 2 cell human fetus or a man. Apparently you believe Jesus is just some manisetation of God. If so then Jesus is not a man but merely a godly manifestation. If Jesus is a man then he is not a manifestation of God. If you say Jesus is fully a man and a manifestation of God, then you contradict yourself, and are in the same league as all trinitarians, You just have a different contradiction than they do.
Here is an example of how illogical and nonsensical your doctrine is. you say Jesus is god, and that God foreknew Jesus according to 1 pet 1.20. that would mean that since Jesus is god, then god foreknew god (himself) and since one doesn't exist when one is foreknown, that means God didn't
exist and god foreknew himself who didn't exist. course logic is not a factor in most peoples doctrine, but logic condemns your doctrine as being innane to the max. you can't even tell this post of yours is inresponse to our discussion of 1 pet. 1.20 because you have no option to evade the biblical truth that God foreknew Jesus, and thereforfe Jesus did not exist when God foreknew him. Typical hermentutics of those who have contradictions for doctrines such as yourself.

God is a spirit not like Judy who is a person; no where does it say God is three person; this you will not acknowledge because if you did acknowledge this fact, you would not have a trinity.

I don't know where you get this idea that I believe God is three persons, I don't. As for me there is but one God, the Father, and nobody else. Probably your confusing me with someone else or who knows.

Just because Jesus came in a earthy human form did not mean that all of God left high and exalted state and, what the Bible declares is God was manifested in the flesh. (God has the power and ability to do what ever He wants to, when ever He wants to; especially when it was His purpose to accomplish to defeat death and sin. We are talking about God here a Devine being who can do anything He desires or purpose to do. I already told you I do not believe in the trinity, God is one.

1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Notice how this verse declares that “GOD” not Jesus/ not the third person of the trinity; BUT GOD was manifested in the flesh.

Here's what God really said in 1 tim 3.16.

(ASV) 1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness; He who was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the spirit, Seen of angels, Preached among the nations, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.

If you believe that the verse reads "god was manifest in the felsh" then you also have to believe 'God was taken up into golory, that God was seenj of angels, that God was justified in the spirit,

If my argument was so false then show me your three persons; if you can’t your trinity is false.

God is one not three persons.

Nothing I have said indicates that I believe God is three persons, Apparently you aren't going to let anything I say get in your way of assertimng and reasserting over and over this falsehood. In order for a doctrine to be true it at the very least hast to make sense. Your doctrine, that God foreknew himself, is ludicruous to the extreme. Therefore it cannot be true.

Here is the closest a trinitarian or person who believes that Jesus is god can come to addressing 1 pet. 1.20.

And let us make a further comparison to 1 Peter 1.20 which speaks of Jesus,

"Who was foreknown before the foundation of the world "
​

Here we have the verb form, proginöskö (pro = before hand; ginöskö = to know).
And we see the fact that all the details about Jesus were foreknown ahead of time - in fact, in eternity past, but manifested in these last times for you.

http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache...+1+pet+1.20+foreknow&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
1 pet. 1.20 says Jesus was foreknown by god, they change it to the things he did was foreknown. Proving that there is no way a trinitarian or person who believes that Jesus is God can deal wwith what 1 pet. 1.20 says without changing it or mistranslating it. 1 pet. 1.20 condemns your contradiction doctrine and all other Jesus is god doctrines. A person that is foreknown can't exist when he is foreknown. Since there was a time when Jesus didn't exist, he cannot in any shape form or fashon be god. You refuse to face what 1 pet. 1.20 says , namely that Jesus was foreknown, they chose to change what was said to something else. Either way everyone evades the scripture for the sake of their doctrines. The only people who can face what 1 pet. 1.20 actually says are those who believe that for them there is but one God, the Father, and no one else is God.

1 Corinthians 8:6 yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we unto him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we through him.

there is according to scripture you cannot face one God, the Father, and God the Father foreknew Jesus before he existed. Your doctrine has as it's foundation an evasion of these 2 scriptures and others like it, cause these 2 scriptures and others like it don't fit your doctrine, they don't fit your interpretation of other scriptures , so you have only two choices accept what god says and reject your doctrine, or ignroe what god says so you can keep your doctrine.

 

[stranger]

It may seem strange to most that religion almost completely no longer reflects the words of God, but rather what people want to hear, want to believe, but a little thought about the process of religion shows that it was inevitable that it would turn out this way :

After all religion is what caused Israel to break their old covenant... as jesus pointed out, it is the rabbis who led the people astray with unloving and hypocritical rule-making

Did @christians' really expect that it would be any different in Christianity? ... reforms have been attempted at times, but never has there been yet a reform to all Jesus' words and all the word of God...

the 'falling away was prophesied too, it is that inevitable ... it MUST happen completely until almost all the world unites in time of crisis into one religion, but its central image will be the creation of Satan , not the Jesus of history ... these are Jesus own revelations which religion understandably ignores :-

Rev 13:3 ...all the world wondered after the beast.
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Jesus predicts secular world power united in worship of the 'angel of light' with an entourage of 'ministers of righteousness' but it is not the congregation of saints set up by Jesus, it is the mass church of united religion of the world and persecutes the saints :

2 Corinthians 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

Men of religion clearly do not accept these words of scripture and yet continue pretending that they believe Jesus and the scripture ... it s rather obviously untrue that they follow the scripture for there it is, and it is the only way they could know what Jesus said because by their own admission they most remain sinners , not saints like those who followed Jesus and wrote about him.

Here's the weirdness of the 'trinity' idea :

It simply would make no difference if God were five or eleven of fifty thousand or three, it contributes NOTHING to knowledge, NOTHING to salvation... but the fact that the scripture says that God is ONE is EVERYTHING , God would not be true if He were many divided parts like RELIGION is...

God presents not just three but many aspects of Himself to men ,all are ONE ... to pick three and limit God to those is simply wrong .... God has many sons according to scroipture, and presents mankind with many spirits of God , but all are one, not just three of them are one, all are one...

It is thus logically incorrect to pick out passages where three aspects of God are mentioned andf ignore the rest of scriptue where the many aspects of God are mentioned

Equally the scripture says that God is a spirit, NOT a person ... the Holy spirit is God's spirit , not a pearson... Jesus presents an aspect of God as a person - much perhaps as angels, other messengers of God, appear as people -
Hebrews 13:2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.

There are clearly in scripture no three persons of God , scripture never talks about any such thing, but talks of many sons of God, and spirits of God, all ONE ...

Yet here is the weirdest thing of all, if god could be three somehow, then it would make no difference to anything, yet religious tradition USES this inconsistent irrelevant belief in them to DIVIDE mankind , very unlovingly , against Jesus' command to love all they come across... even to exclude people from their presence, from communing with them .. yet tradition of sinners is deeply divided and they do not see that it proves they are [mostly] wrong , they are many faiths pretending to be of God and God is ONE faith in truth that is NOT inconsistent like theirs is with even Jesus' words.

 

[2ducklow]

never mind

 

[k2svpete]

Gort, you have some fundamental shortfalls in the understanding of John 1.

Der Alter - The vast majority of those scriptures you cherry-picked have already been addressed. Stop being obtuse.

 

[2ducklow]

Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Jhn 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.


Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Gort is wrong here. this is a false translation. No verse says that all things were made by Jesus, the Greek prep. is dia which means through not by. Translators as a rule change preposistions at will to conform to their doctrine as is the case in this verse.

Even the NKJV gets it right

(NKJV) John 1:3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

the Father created us not Jesus.

Malachi 2:10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, profaning the covenant of our fathers?

It's just one of many examples of changing scripture to conform to trinity.

All thingswere created by god not by christ.

Ephesians 3:9 and to make all men see what is the dispensation of the mystery which for ages hath been hid in God who created all things;

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.


We have, at the moment, 2 Gods who are shown to have created all things; Jesus and the Father. Yet God is numerically one.

2 is one is a contradiction. 2 is not one. A contrdictory conclusion based on a false translation of John 1.3. Contradictions are suppose to be a tip off that something you believe is not right. Contradictions are not deep truths.

Creation is a special posession that only God has. There are no other facets nor many ways of looking at God in this respect. Only God can create all things. God is therefore shown to be in the person of Christ Jesus and the Father. We have 2 of the trinity plainly exhibited.

Based on a false translation of scripture.

Divinity is also a special posession that only God has. Only God is divine and has the divine nature.

 

[gort]

Gort is wrong here. this is a false translation. No verse says that all things were made by Jesus, the Greek prep. is dia which means through not by.

So explain to us how all things were made through Him and don't forget the other half of the verse, and without Him nothing was made that was made. Show a great enough distinction between the two concepts. Show us what it really means.

Ephesians 3:9 and to make all men see what is the dispensation of the mystery which for ages hath been hid in God who created all things;

You forgot the last part. Why?

Eph 3:9 and to make all see what [is] the fellowship [fn] of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ; NKJV

 

[gort]

It may seem strange to most that religion almost completely no longer reflects the words of God, but rather what people want to hear, want to believe, but a little thought about the process of religion shows that it was inevitable that it would turn out this way :

After all religion is what caused Israel to break their old covenant... as jesus pointed out, it is the rabbis who led the people astray with unloving and hypocritical rule-making

Did @christians' really expect that it would be any different in Christianity? ... reforms have been attempted at times, but never has there been yet a reform to all Jesus' words and all the word of God...

the 'falling away was prophesied too, it is that inevitable ... it MUST happen completely until almost all the world unites in time of crisis into one religion, but its central image will be the creation of Satan , not the Jesus of history ... these are Jesus own revelations which religion understandably ignores :-

Rev 13:3 ...all the world wondered after the beast.
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Jesus predicts secular world power united in worship of the 'angel of light' with an entourage of 'ministers of righteousness' but it is not the congregation of saints set up by Jesus, it is the mass church of united religion of the world and persecutes the saints :

2 Corinthians 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

Men of religion clearly do not accept these words of scripture and yet continue pretending that they believe Jesus and the scripture ... it s rather obviously untrue that they follow the scripture for there it is, and it is the only way they could know what Jesus said because by their own admission they most remain sinners , not saints like those who followed Jesus and wrote about him.

Here's the weirdness of the 'trinity' idea :

It simply would make no difference if God were five or eleven of fifty thousand or three, it contributes NOTHING to knowledge, NOTHING to salvation... but the fact that the scripture says that God is ONE is EVERYTHING , God would not be true if He were many divided parts like RELIGION is...

God presents not just three but many aspects of Himself to men ,all are ONE ... to pick three and limit God to those is simply wrong .... God has many sons according to scroipture, and presents mankind with many spirits of God , but all are one, not just three of them are one, all are one...

It is thus logically incorrect to pick out passages where three aspects of God are mentioned andf ignore the rest of scriptue where the many aspects of God are mentioned

Equally the scripture says that God is a spirit, NOT a person ... the Holy spirit is God's spirit , not a pearson... Jesus presents an aspect of God as a person - much perhaps as angels, other messengers of God, appear as people -
Hebrews 13:2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.

There are clearly in scripture no three persons of God , scripture never talks about any such thing, but talks of many sons of God, and spirits of God, all ONE ...

Yet here is the weirdest thing of all, if god could be three somehow, then it would make no difference to anything, yet religious tradition USES this inconsistent irrelevant belief in them to DIVIDE mankind , very unlovingly , against Jesus' command to love all they come across... even to exclude people from their presence, from communing with them .. yet tradition of sinners is deeply divided and they do not see that it proves they are [mostly] wrong , they are many faiths pretending to be of God and God is ONE faith in truth that is NOT inconsistent like theirs is with even Jesus' words.

I pretty much take it that you and only you have the right answers and pretty much everybody else who belongs to a trinitarian organizational church all have it wrong.


The sad thing about those who combat against trinitarianism just can't deal with what John wrote. NO matter how plain it reads, it still and will always read,

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The Logos was God. The Logos was Jesus. You want to speak of religious men that ignore what the scriptures have to say? You'd be better off examining your own weirdness first, yes?

 

[k2svpete]

Gort, you do not understand the language that is being used. You cannot rest upon one scripture to base an obscure concept and then take that and read into other scriptures, that when read in context, clearly do not mean what you are trying to have them say.

Here is the simplest way to break it to you. Jesus is not pysically the Word of God. The Word of God is the Word of God. What is written in the scriptures, is the Word of God. Let's bring a few other truths in on this - 'Out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks.' So people's words are a reflection of their heart. Yes?

God's word has always been with Him so it must have been there in the beginning. As it is God's Word, it had to be with Him. My words are not with you are they?
The last part of that verse should be translated as divine, not God, as the grammar indicates this as an adjective, describing the nature of the Word. As it is of and from God it must be divine, as He is divine.

Through God's word, everything was created, remeber creation - God said, ... God said, ... So, as God prophesied in the Garden of Eden and as he had the plan for salvation from the beginning, it always was and Jesus was there (in God's plan) from the beginning. The birth of Jesus and his ministry was God's Word/plan becoming flesh (or coming to fruition).

See, once you actually read the verse with some understanding of what is being said and standard biblical concepts, it isn't that hard.

 

[wayseer]

Yet here is the weirdest thing of all, if god could be three somehow ...

What is this weirdness of which you speak? Is 'weird' another way of saying you don't understand. Or is 'weird' the idea of the Trinity is covert operation undertaken by the Church or the CIA to cause division and dissension? What is the difference between divergent views of how God might be conceived and the various religions faiths?

There are many faiths - there is but one God. It really doesn't matter unless you think you way is the only way.

 

[k2svpete]

God's way is the only way. That is the important bit. If you're not on His tram, you're going in the wrong direction.

 

[2ducklow]

So explain to us how all things were made through Him and don't forget the other half of the verse, and without Him nothing was made that was made. Show a great enough distinction between the two concepts. Show us what it really means.

Right taking "all things were made through Him" literally makes as much sense as your doctrine that 2 is one.
Here is the verse that explains eph. 3.19 in the correct translation, not the trinitarian one where they change preposistions willy nilly to conform to trinity.

Colossians 1:16 for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him;

all things were created in , through and unto Jesus, according to the unadulterated word of God. Obviously all things were not literally created through and in Jesus. God didn't created everything passing thought the belly of jesus, so it has to be figurative. The meaning is that all things were created because of Jesus. Jesus is the plan of God for man. Jesus is the reason for all of creation is the meaning of "all things were created through Jesus." you convientently and repeatedly refuse to acknowledge that there could possibly be a figuative interpretation of your pet scriptures that you use to support your trinity doctrine, but if you were to examine everything you believe about the bible you would find that often you accept a figurative interpretation of numerous verses, it's just when trinity is at stake that you pretend like no other interpretation but a literal one is possible. I mean you don't really believe that Jesus is a loaf of bread, a door with hinges on it, a road on the earth, a literal shepard with literal sheep for followers (bah bah) do you? why not? because it doesn't make sense? The truth is you have a nonsense doctrine and you have to pretend like your way is the only possible way to interpret scripture, therefore the nonsense it results in is unavoidable, namely 3 is one. Admiting that there are possible other interpretatons that make sense, destroys that illusion of yours that your docttrine depends on.

You forgot the last part. Why?

i don't know why, possibly oversight, can't remember really, doesn't matter, cause i already explained that the bible ereally says all things were made through Jesus not by Jesus. John 1.3 states it, which I commented on and so does eph. 3.9. You're trying to make something out of nothing.

 

[stranger]

God's way is the only way. That is the important bit. If you're not on His tram, you're going in the wrong direction.

Hmmm... you missed a lot of scripture out in coming to that conclusion...

one simple example :-

The FEW ... the narrow strait way [Matt 7:14]

the MANY ... the broad way through destruction [in death]

The few are sealed toward redemption at Jesus' return in [Rev 7:3-8]

but hey, the broad way takes the countless MANY to salvation after this , according to Jesus, in Rev 7:9-10...

apparently there are trams in BOTH directions, one takes longer than the other, but they both ways go round to meet in Jesus and salvation.

pretending that it is a single one-way tram simply does not fit what Jesus says... it is a false analogy , untrue to scripture [but sadly commonplace in religious tradiion of sinners]

 

[plmarquette]

sebellianism ...1st century heresy....
the baptism of John 3 players
the Lord Your God ...Jehovah Elohim (plural); let us create him in our image, be as one as the father and spirit and I are one ; there are 3 who bear witness in heaven ... jesus in the water, the father speaking, the spirit descending .... my father will send another like me , the spirit ....

Jesus only Pentecostals, Jehovah's witnesses ....and God had a couple of hand puppets...one he called Jesus , and the other he called the Holy Spirit...[can't seem to find that verse]

 

[stranger]

I pretty much take it that you and only you have the right answers and pretty much everybody else who belongs to a trinitarian organizational church all have it wrong.

I pretty much take it that God and only God has the right answers and pretty much everybody else who belongs to a trinitarian organizational church all have it wrong because what they say does not correspond with the scripture..

The sad thing about those who combat against trinitarianism just can't deal with what John wrote. NO matter how plain it reads, it still and will always read,

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The Logos was God. The Logos was Jesus. You want to speak of religious men that ignore what the scriptures have to say? You'd be better off examining your own weirdness first, yes?

I have no problem with John 1, and you are misquoting ... Logos was made flesh in Jesus :-

John 1 :14 And the Word was made flesh ...

Logos is uncreated , it would be hard to see the making of Jesus as not being an act of manifestation of the spirit , comparable say to Moses' appearing at Jesus' 'transfiguration' after being taken to the spirit [verified by Jesus as being alive, not dead]

we know that the spirit can manifest as flesh and bones because that is exactly what happens in resurrection, as Jesus showed after his resurrection that he was no spirit, but flesh and bones.

Jesus in scripture is only one of four facets [faces] of Logos ,standing at the right hand of God, right and coverng cherub ....

Now a cherub has four 'faces' or facets and only one of them is a mortal man, so it makes sense to say that Logos became Jesus , but not that Logos was or is Jesus, Jesus is only one aspect of the life of Logos as spirit and as mortal man.

Ezek 10:14 And every one [cherub] had four faces: the first face was the face of a cherub, and the second face was the face of a man, and the third the face of a lion, and the fourth the face of an eagle.

 

[stranger]

What is this weirdness of which you speak? Is 'weird' another way of saying you don't understand. Or is 'weird' the idea of the Trinity is covert operation undertaken by the Church or the CIA to cause division and dissension? What is the difference between divergent views of how God might be conceived and the various religions faiths?

Please stop putting words in my mouth then mocking them as if I had said them and they were humorous ... it is caled 'creatng strawmen, to delight in knocking them down, but it is you who created the strawman!

I have explained in lengthy detail what is 'weird' and it is not my fault if you do not trouble to read what is written.

If one has a bag of oranges and takes out three, it is incorrect and 'weird' to say the collection of oranges has 'threeness' , trinity , because tere are other oranges in the bag which one could have taken out, any number, not just three.

Equally the bible describes many aspects of God, many sons of God, many spirits of God , which I have discussed earlier in the thread wih reference soely to what the scripture says ... does one say God is seven-fold because scripture mentions the seven spirits of God before His throne? Does ne count the sons of God and say God has that number? If one did the answer would not be three but very large indeed accirding ti scripture , but why would one want to??? It serves no purpose at all! [or tell me what use trinity is as a concept? ]

It does not mater that three aspects are mentioned here or there, because other numbers of sons and spirits of God are mentioned elsewhere , and even if one could count them, why ????

There are many faiths - there is but one God. It really doesn't matter unless you think you way is the only way.

I think God's way is the only way and that the scripture is NOT for private interpretation by sinners , it says so, so why do sinners keep interpreting it and inventing endless divisions of religion ? [the bible says why it happens , but that it does not lead to the truth] :-

2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

The standard is EVERY word of scripture ,and no denomination of sinners follows every word of scripture, check it out with your bible :-

Luke 4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

One might note too that the new covenant says that those forgiven by grace are NOT taught by men, but by God ... compare the saints' words with religion and its sinner 'priests' ordained by sinners... saints and sinners are both required in this word, but one should not mix them up , they are different in role and truth ...

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

be careful whom you learn from , there are no saints teaching, but you can read what they wrote in scripture.

 

[2ducklow]

I pretty much take it that you and only you have the right answers and pretty much everybody else who belongs to a trinitarian organizational church all have it wrong.

yea that's pretty much my impression. Usually people who dream up their own special doctrine consider themselves the only ones saved. to a certain extent that is true of trinity as well. generally trintiarians sonsider only themselves saved even though most all trinitarian worships services are dead to the max. little to no moving of the spirit in them.

The sad thing about those who combat against trinitarianism just can't deal with what John wrote. NO matter how plain it reads, it still and will always read,

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The Logos was God. The Logos was Jesus.

and just suppose for a moment here, that the logos is what God says or has said, instead of the sentient being that you guys dreamed up for a def. of logos. What would be the meaning of 'the word was god' if word meant word and not sentient being? course I know you probably thing I'm a fool for thinking word means word.

You want to speak of religious men that ignore what the scriptures have to say? You'd be better off examining your own weirdness first, yes?

well actually the doctrine is so rambling I doubt anyone understands it. He stoped talking to me once i pointed out thes cripture tjhat says christ is the true israel of God. Guess he doesn't want to hear those scriptures that contrdict his beliefs. typical.

Darby) Galatians 3:16 But to Abraham were the promises addressed, and to his seed: he does not say, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed; which is Christ.


(Darby) Isaiah 41:8 But thou, Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham,

 

[gort]

Gort, you do not understand the language that is being used. You cannot rest upon one scripture to base an obscure concept and then take that and read into other scriptures, that when read in context, clearly do not mean what you are trying to have them say.

Here is the simplest way to break it to you. Jesus is not pysically the Word of God. The Word of God is the Word of God. What is written in the scriptures, is the Word of God. Let's bring a few other truths in on this - 'Out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks.' So people's words are a reflection of their heart. Yes?

God's word has always been with Him so it must have been there in the beginning. As it is God's Word, it had to be with Him. My words are not with you are they?
The last part of that verse should be translated as divine, not God, as the grammar indicates this as an adjective, describing the nature of the Word. As it is of and from God it must be divine, as He is divine.

Through God's word, everything was created, remeber creation - God said, ... God said, ... So, as God prophesied in the Garden of Eden and as he had the plan for salvation from the beginning, it always was and Jesus was there (in God's plan) from the beginning. The birth of Jesus and his ministry was God's Word/plan becoming flesh (or coming to fruition).

See, once you actually read the verse with some understanding of what is being said and standard biblical concepts, it isn't that hard.

I don't understand the language being used? Odd, John wrote it plain enough. The Logos was God. Can't be an obscure concept at all.


Somehow, you make a strawman as I never said Jesus was the Word of God, like in the words written in the scriptures. Why do you do something like that?

And, do you have some credentials in the greek translation arena to be going about saying something should be translated in such a manner as you propose? Why should I take your word for it?

Now, someone like Robertson has some crediblity having written 40+ books concerning the greek language. He pretty much contradicts everything you've said. Seems like every anti- trinitarian combatant is a greek language expert these days.

 

[gort]

Right taking "all things were made through Him" literally makes as much sense as your doctrine that 2 is one.
Here is the verse that explains eph. 3.19 in the correct translation, not the trinitarian one where they change preposistions willy nilly to conform to trinity.

Colossians 1:16 for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him;

all things were created in , through and unto Jesus, according to the unadulterated word of God. Obviously all things were not literally created through and in Jesus. God didn't created everything passing thought the belly of jesus, so it has to be figurative. The meaning is that all things were created because of Jesus. Jesus is the plan of God for man. Jesus is the reason for all of creation is the meaning of "all things were created through Jesus." you convientently and repeatedly refuse to acknowledge that there could possibly be a figuative interpretation of your pet scriptures that you use to support your trinity doctrine, but if you were to examine everything you believe about the bible you would find that often you accept a figurative interpretation of numerous verses, it's just when trinity is at stake that you pretend like no other interpretation but a literal one is possible. I mean you don't really believe that Jesus is a loaf of bread, a door with hinges on it, a road on the earth, a literal shepard with literal sheep for followers (bah bah) do you? why not? because it doesn't make sense? The truth is you have a nonsense doctrine and you have to pretend like your way is the only possible way to interpret scripture, therefore the nonsense it results in is unavoidable, namely 3 is one. Admiting that there are possible other interpretatons that make sense, destroys that illusion of yours that your docttrine depends on.

YOu can construct nice strawmen. The jist of what I can faintly reconcile from your post pretty much leaves me lacking for a meaningful response: The meaning is that all things were created because of Jesus.

Is that all you have? All things were created BECAUSE of Jesus? "BECAUSE" hardly explains the "in" and "through" of it all. According to your interpretation, this should read:

Col 1:16 For all things were created in Him, the things in the heavens, and the things on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers, all things were created because (of) Him and because Him.

Your interpretation simply does'nt do much to explain how "in and through" Christ Jesus all things were made. Try again.

 

[gort]

I pretty much take it that God and only God has the right answers and pretty much everybody else who belongs to a trinitarian organizational church all have it wrong because what they say does not correspond with the scripture..

You might want to re-examine your words a bit.

I have no problem with John 1, and you are misquoting ... Logos was made flesh in Jesus

No, it says, And the Word became flesh, not made flesh in Jesus.

John 1 :14 And the Word was made flesh ...

See?

Logos is uncreated , it would be hard to see the making of Jesus as not being an act of manifestation of the spirit , comparable say to Moses' appearing at Jesus' 'transfiguration' after being taken to the spirit [verified by Jesus as being alive, not dead]

Very good. Logos is uncreated. Only God is uncreated. The Logos was with God, and the Logos was God. THis isn't that difficult after all, yes?

we know that the spirit can manifest as flesh and bones because that is exactly what happens in resurrection, as Jesus showed after his resurrection that he was no spirit, but flesh and bones.



Jesus in scripture is only one of four facets [faces] of Logos ,standing at the right hand of God, right and coverng cherub ....

Now a cherub has four 'faces' or facets and only one of them is a mortal man, so it makes sense to say that Logos became Jesus , but not that Logos was or is Jesus, Jesus is only one aspect of the life of Logos as spirit and as mortal man.

Ezek 10:14 And every one [cherub] had four faces: the first face was the face of a cherub, and the second face was the face of a man, and the third the face of a lion, and the fourth the face of an eagle.

no comment.