Trinity is wrong.

[2ducklow]

Jesus is God; God is one. Jesus was God manifested in the flesh. Jesus was forknown because God caused the fall and needed a savior to reverse the curse;

You've only come up with some reason why Jesus was foreknown. You still haven't face the fact that condemns your doctrine. Jesus was foreknown. yTo foreknow someone, means to know them before they exist. This fact you cannot face and keep your doctrine, as you have amply demonstrated here in numerous posts.
Jesus was foreknown because he didn't exist but god knew Jesus by foreknowledge, i.e. God knew Jesus before he existed, just as god foreknew us before we existed. If Jesus existed before he existed as you assert, then god couldn't have foreknown him, God would have known him. The reason someone is foreknown is that they don't exist, not that man fell or a savior is needed or i went to the grocery store, or you studied Greek or John is married to Mary.

Someone that exists can't be foreknown.
1 pet. 1.20 disproves trinity and the doctrine that Jesus is god. Jesus was foreknown, therefore he didn't exist when he was foreknown, someone can't be god and not exist.

Plus since there is only one god, and if as you say Jesus is god, then God foreknew himself according to your doctrine. saying that God foreknew himself, as your doctrine equates to, is nonsense and condemns your doctrine as being false.

The only thing that I can see that would work for you vis a vis the word foreknow is to say that God foreknew Christ in some highly figurative sense. Say a man has a sex change operation, and someone says to the man who is now a woman, say Judy.
"I foreknew you Judy before your operation." Of course Judy is the same person that was a man previously and of course Jesus the same person 'word" that he was before he changed himself into a 2 cell embryo (assuming your doctrine is correct) . Judy might say " Uh I'm the same person I was before my sex change operation" but he (John) would only mean that figuratevly speaking, not literally speaking, that he knew her before hand.

But I find that argument false.

 

[timbo81]

Great then show me where it says He is the second person of the trinity.

he had authority to forgive the sins of man, that is something only God can do.

I don't even know if i'm a trinitarian because I thought I was but some people have said i'm a polytheist.

I believe God is 1 being in 3 parts of the father/son/holy spirit,equal yet seperate and different in their jobs.

By worshiping one I am giving worship to all, so there is no idolatary.

thoough I don't specifically pray to the holy spirit because he is the enabler even though he is God. Just because that is the order of the Godhead

 

[k2svpete]

Timbo, being trinitarian is being polytheistic. It really is as simple as that.

Also, Jesus was granted the authority of God, hence being able to forgive sins, heal etc. There is nothing confusing about it, it is all very straightforward, despite the carry-on some people make over it.

 

[Benoni]

You've only come up with some reason why Jesus was foreknown. You still haven't face the fact that condemns your doctrine. Jesus was foreknown. yTo foreknow someone, means to know them before they exist. This fact you cannot face and keep your doctrine, as you have amply demonstrated here in numerous posts.
Jesus was foreknown because he didn't exist but god knew Jesus by foreknowledge, i.e. God knew Jesus before he existed, just as god foreknew us before we existed. If Jesus existed before he existed as you assert, then god couldn't have foreknown him, God would have known him. The reason someone is foreknown is that they don't exist, not that man fell or a savior is needed or i went to the grocery store, or you studied Greek or John is married to Mary.

Someone that exists can't be foreknown.
1 pet. 1.20 disproves trinity and the doctrine that Jesus is god. Jesus was foreknown, therefore he didn't exist when he was foreknown, someone can't be god and not exist.

Plus since there is only one god, and if as you say Jesus is god, then God foreknew himself according to your doctrine. saying that God foreknew himself, as your doctrine equates to, is nonsense and condemns your doctrine as being false.

The only thing that I can see that would work for you vis a vis the word foreknow is to say that God foreknew Christ in some highly figurative sense. Say a man has a sex change operation, and someone says to the man who is now a woman, say Judy.
"I foreknew you Judy before your operation." Of course Judy is the same person that was a man previously and of course Jesus the same person 'word" that he was before he changed himself into a 2 cell embryo (assuming your doctrine is correct) . Judy might say " Uh I'm the same person I was before my sex change operation" but he (John) would only mean that figuratevly speaking, not literally speaking, that he knew her before hand.

But I find that argument false.

This is getting really weird (sex change operations) Judy is not God; nor is she a spirit like God who can manifest Himself. God is a spirit not like Judy who is a person; no where does it say God is three person; this you will not acknowledge because if you did acknowledge this fact, you would not have a trinity.


Just because Jesus came in a earthy human form did not mean that all of God left high and exalted state and, what the Bible declares is God was manifested in the flesh. (God has the power and ability to do what ever He wants to, when ever He wants to; especially when it was His purpose to accomplish to defeat death and sin. We are talking about God here a Devine being who can do anything He desires or purpose to do. I already told you I do not believe in the trinity, God is one.

1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Notice how this verse declares that “GOD” not Jesus/ not the third person of the trinity; BUT GOD was manifested in the flesh.


If my argument was so false then show me your three persons; if you can’t your trinity is false.

God is one not three persons.

 

[Benoni]

double post

 

[Benoni]

Timbo, being trinitarian is being polytheistic. It really is as simple as that.

Also, Jesus was granted the authority of God, hence being able to forgive sins, heal etc. There is nothing confusing about it, it is all very straightforward, despite the carry-on some people make over it.

Then show me where God is three persons? No three persons/no trinity.

 

[Benoni]

he had authority to forgive the sins of man, that is something only God can do.

I don't even know if i'm a trinitarian because I thought I was but some people have said i'm a polytheist.

I believe God is 1 being in 3 parts of the father/son/holy spirit,equal yet seperate and different in their jobs.
By worshiping one I am giving worship to all, so there is no idolatary.

thoough I don't specifically pray to the holy spirit because he is the enabler even though he is God. Just because that is the order of the Godhead

I already address Godhead which simple means divine. I pretty much agree with you. I see no separation; when I pray I pray to God I see no reason to confuse the issue; Jesus is God/ God is one; the rest is just religious confusion to include polythesism. I am a monotheists; meaning I believe God is one like the Bible declares. God being three person has no foundation in God’s Word.

 

[hybrid]

Timbo, being trinitarian is being polytheistic. It really is as simple as that.

Also, Jesus was granted the authority of God, hence being able to forgive sins, heal etc. There is nothing confusing about it, it is all very straightforward, despite the carry-on some people make over it.

it may be simple if your not thoughtful.
trinity elegantly reconciled the contradictory quality of god's transcendence and immanence.

 

[CarlosTheJackal]

No what it comes down to believe God's Holy Spirit with in you or the traditions of long dead religious leaders. Just like the Jews in Jesus day who followed the religion of their day and missed the very Christ they were seeking. God Spirit of truth not men and their religions is the only sourse of truth. Anti Christ, anti anointing means the same thing.

You sound very sure of yourself. How do you know for sure your interpretation of the Bible is correct?

God bless,

 

[k2svpete]

Then show me where God is three persons? No three persons/no trinity.

What the? I don't believe in a trinty, best you slow down a little with your posts and follow people's arguments before responding. Just a suggestion.

 

[k2svpete]

it may be simple if your not thoughtful.
trinity elegantly reconciled the contradictory quality of god's transcendence and immanence.

On the contrary, if one actually thinks then the very idea of trinitarianism is revealed as a sad joke that is without basis in scripture (read in context for those who like to cherry-pick).

God is one, ie. singular, not more than one. Jesus is the Son of God, not God the Son. Nowhere in scripture will you find reference to the latter but time after time it is plainly stated that Jesus is the Son of God.

 

[Benoni]

What the? I don't believe in a trinty, best you slow down a little with your posts and follow people's arguments before responding. Just a suggestion.

I have responded to these straw men’s arguments and not one of them have gotten past the fact that no where in God's Word does it say God is three persons. So the real issue here is they cannot back their false claims that God is three person’s; this is an open debate and there has been plenty of opportunity. So many Bible verses we quoted and not one of these verses came even close to backing this false claim. On the other hand all I need to do is quote a multiple of verses that declare God is one
.

1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. (KJV)

Notice how 1 Tim declares “the man Christ Jesus” the man Jesus in the verse that declares God is one. You see Jesus is “GOD” manifested in the flesh; not the second person of the trinity. Problem is religion is all that matters to church going people; to prove their religion is right is all that matters; but what true Christians should be doing is seeking, asking and knocking; not defending bias.

Below is another example that just makes the trinity a stawman.

Isaiah. 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

If you look at the above verse it seems a bit confusing for it is obviously speaking of the Son in blue; but then it goes in context directly to the Father in red.

As I mentioned earlier; take the word Godhead which by looking at the Greek is a mistranslation so Rome can push its Trinitarian bias and deceive so many.

Godhead Strong’s 2304 theios (thi'-os); from 2316; godlike (neuter as noun, divinity): 2316 theos (theh'-os); of uncertain affinity; a deity, especially (with 3588) the supreme Divinity; figuratively, a magistrate; by Hebraism, very:

The word Greek word mistranslated as” godhead” speaks of divinity not anything to do with some false religious term Godhead.


This does not rule out that God as a spirit can manifested Himself any way He wants to; be it The Spirit of Truth, Jesus in the Flesh; or even a burning bush.

It has been said there are over two hundred different names for God; a name speaks of a nature, a character, and an authority. God has many natures; but He is one. He is love; peace, wrath, a judge etc.


Something’s in the Bible are beyond human understanding and when it comes to the Mystery of the Father and the Son; I cannot and will not label it Trinitarian or oneness; but like the Jews I am a monotheist; for God does not change.

​

Colossians 2:2 ​

That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;​

 

[CarlosTheJackal]

I have responded to these straw men’s arguments and not one of them have gotten past the fact that no where in God's Word does it say God is three persons.

Perhaps you can explain to us “straw men” how you interpret the Bible and what makes you so sure your interpretation is correct? Are you divinely inspired by the Holy Spirit?

God bless,

 

[Benoni]

Perhaps you can explain to us “straw men” how you interpret the Bible and what makes you so sure your interpretation is correct? Are you divinely inspired by the Holy Spirit?

God bless,

I used God’s Word to challenge the doctrine of the trinity and this is an open debate and if you do not like what I have posted you have all the right to challenge everything I say just like the thousands of other Trinitarian in this forum.

2 Peter 1:12
Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.​

​

Present truth; in other words as the truth is revealed you move with it. When a truth is reveled to you receive it and walk not with man’s traditions; but what the spirit of truth reveals.

 

[CarlosTheJackal]

I used God’s Word to challenge the doctrine of the trinity and this is an open debate and if you do not like what I have posted you have all the right to challenge everything I say just like the thousands of other Trinitarian in this forum.

2 Peter 1:12

Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.​

Present truth; in other words as the truth is revealed you move with it. When a truth is reveled to you receive it and walk not with man’s traditions; but what the spirit of truth reveals.

I challenge your interpretation of the Word of God. How do you know for sure your interpretation is correct?

God bless,

 

[k2svpete]

With respect to the trinity doctrine we know it is correct as the Jews (who let's remember all the disciples and Jesus were) do not follow it. The basic statement of faith of the Jewish people is drawn from Deut - 'I am the Lord your God. Beside me there is no other.' Jesus re-affirms this is Mark. It really is that simple.

 

[k2svpete]

Benoni - you're agreeing vehemently with me. Just remember that I am not one of the straw men when you're on a roll with your responses.

 

[stranger]

Then who does "us" refer to in the creation man? "Us' is not singular, it is plural. One of the "us" refers to God, and the scriptures plainly say that "God created man...", so who/what else is referred to?

1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

'Elohim' means 'divine judges' , it is plural simply because judgment only applies to the 'manifest' from which God as spirit is separate [the actual meaning of 'Holy']

Thus from mankind's perspective , apparently in time, the time-less spirit [Godhead] is entirely separate [holy] , but the sons of God [1 John 3:2, Philippians 2:15 ,John 1:12, Job 38:7, Job 1:6, Genesis 6:2] interact with men [without corruption, remaining 'at one with God', remaining one]

Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

God thus communicates many 'faces' to men, not just three ... indeed there are many spirits and sons of God mentioned throughout scripture, ALL ONE, none three!

'trinity' is thus an irrational concept , if one really wanted to count the sons and spirits of God then one would end up with more than three by far... but consider this, who wants to count faces of God, why ????

God shows many 'faces' not just three, but they are all ONE God ... there just ain't any 'threeness' of God anywhere ...

Count three oranges and one has three oranges, but truly there are more than three, an orange has no threeness , yet all oranges have a oneness in that they are all oranges... it ain't rocket science to see that 'trinity' is irrational and why it never occurs as a concept in scripture ...

 

[Benoni]

I challenge your interpretation of the Word of God. How do you know for sure your interpretation is correct?

God bless,

?

How do I know it?

How do you know it?


Because we allowed here to freely discuss God's Word as brothers in Christ and are not locked up in some little church or denomination that or cemetery I mean seminary that controls what you believe. Please challenge me; I am also a Christian Universalist and that is my favorite subject.

By my spirit and by God's Word; lets take this a step further.


I cannot and will not fit God’s Word in a man made box; it is like a river that flows and gets deeper and deeper; in fact so deep at times you cannot no longer stand; that is where faith comes in.

Jeremiah 2:13 For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can
hold no water.

I look around at the vast majority of God’s awesome people who remind me more of Lawyers defending the law according to the way they have been taught no matter how evil the law is. There is no room in their religious brain to dig deeper, or explore the most awesome book ever written; words like “new” scare them.

Broken Cisterns is all they have; Jeremiah had it totally right. To look beyond those man made principles is so contrary to established creeds and doctrine; they are just like the Catholic Church in the Dark Ages. Luther was a man who was called of God; Luther was not perfect; but Luther did something most Christians refuse to do; hear God and walk with the principles God had given Him. Lutherans today hear Luther and walk with the principle Luther taught them, and do not comprehend God’s Spirit has moved beyond Luther and his dead creed and dogmas. The Bible is not a law Book; but a living moving book that goes beyond the principles man made established icons.

Do you know what a cistern is; my house was built in 1916 and we have a cistern in the basement. It is made up of four hard walls (religion); it is now old, and useless; but at one time it had an awesome purpose. I tried to build a door in that cistern so I can use it for storage; that concrete is so hard and thick I have pretty much given up after hours and hours to penetrate those hard established walls.

God’s Word is a progressive Word and cannot be contained in any wall.

 

[Benoni]

Benoni - you're agreeing vehemently with me. Just remember that I am not one of the straw men when you're on a roll with your responses.

I did not mean to sound that way I met just to comment. Sorry.