Trinity is wrong.

[ContraMundum]

Tu Es Petrus

 

[Ichabod 2]

Anti-Trinitarians endlessly squabble and bicker about words, used by Trinitarians, trying to express the nature of God, as revealed in scripture, e.g. “Trinity,””triune,””person,""being,""entity,""substance,""essence," ”nature,” ”who," etc., etc., yada, yada, yada.

All words are inherently finite and imperfect, therefore these words, "Trinity,” ”triune,” ”person," "being," "entity," "substance," "essence,” ”nature,” ”who," and/or any other words one chooses to mention, are totally inadequate to describe God, the infinite, perfect, omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent. But the fact that human words are finite, limited and imperfect does not prove or disprove anything about the doctrine of the Trinity.

Here yet again scriptural truths I have posted before, without any so-called unscriptural words or man made doctrines.

1. There is one God! The Father is called/referred to as God, in scripture, but the Father is not the Son or the Spirit. Numerous vss. e.g., John 6:27, Gal 1:1, Gal 1:3, Eph 6:23, Philippians 2:11, 1 Thess 1:1, 2 Tim 1:2, Titus 1:4, 1 Peter 1:2, 2 Peter 1:17, et. al.

2. There is one God! The Son is called/referred to as God, in scripture, but the Son is not the Father or the Spirit.

[1] Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
​

[2] Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

[3] Luk 7:16 And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people.

[4] Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

[5] Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

[6] Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

[7] Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

[8] Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten God, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

[9] John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

[10] Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

[11] Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

[12] Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

[13] John 12:41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

[14] Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

[15] Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

[16] Joh 17:10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

[17] Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

[18] Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he [God] hath purchased with his own blood.

[19] Rom 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

[20] 2 Cor 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

[21] Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

[22] Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

[23] Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

[24] Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

[25] Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he [God] saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

[26] Heb 3:3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.
4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.

[27] Phi 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

[28] 1 Tim 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

[29] 1 Tim 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;

[30] 1 Tim 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;

[31] Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

[32] 2 Pet 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

[33] 1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

[34] Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

[35] Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

[36] Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
​

3. There is one God! The Holy Spirit is called/referred to as God, in scripture, but the Spirit is not the Father or the Son. Acts 5:3-4, Acts 28:25-27, Heb 3:7-11, Heb 10:15-17.

There is one God! The Father, the Son, and the Spirit, all three are called/ referred to as God, in scripture, but each has a distinct mind, will, and self; John 16:13, 1 Cor 12:11, Philippians 2:5, John 5:26, Rom 8:27, Matthew 26:39.

God is one; not three persons. If God is three persons; chapter and verse to back up this false Catholic teaching; If you cannot produce chapter and verse to prove this simple point; there is no trinity.

Jesus was God manifested in the Flesh; that simple; not the second person of the trinity (chapter and verse please).

The Holy Spirit is God with in us not the third person of the trinity (chapter and verse please).


Ask any Jew if God is three persons and he will tell you two things, God is one. And God does not change....


By the way none of the verses you quoted have any reference to God being three persons.

No three persons.... NO TRINITY.

 

[JHM]

One little problem with that viewpoint. Christ clearly said that sins against HIM could be forgiven; but that sins against the HOLY SPIRIT would not be forgiven. How do you square that with the idea of "Oneness" ?

I offer the following scientific formula : " Yada, Yada, Yada, over Blah, Blah, Blah, times Yack, Yack, Yack, to the power of Quack, Quack, Quack = BS"

 

[Ichabod 2]

One little problem with that viewpoint. Christ clearly said that sins against HIM could be forgiven; but that sins against the HOLY SPIRIT would not be forgiven. How do you square that with the idea of "Oneness" ?

I offer the following scientific formula : " Yada, Yada, Yada, over Blah, Blah, Blah, times Yack, Yack, Yack, to the power of Quack, Quack, Quack = BS"

I see your lack of argument has turned to babble, just like lack of scriptural support.

I am not a Oneness; I am a monotheist. A Oneness is a Christian who belongs to United Pentecostal religion; I do not.

I see you have not addressed my valid point.Where is your three persons of the trinity, without three persons you have no trinity.

The unpardonable sin as you orthodox call it was at the end of the last age which I will call the age of law; because the new age of the church had not begun.

Pharisees and rulers that they might lose their hold on the people and they were willing to do almost anything to keep the people from following Jesus. They were proud of the reputation they had among the people; that fed their pride, supported their power, and filled their purses. They saw very clearly that if the popularity and power of Jesus continued to rise, their power would be absolutely gone. Upon occasion they said, "What can we do?" for "the world is gone after Him." It was necessary for the Pharisees to account for the wonder that had been wrought in some way. Whatever way they chose, it was necessary that they should acknowledge that there was super-human power; the people were fully persuaded of this and no man could deny it. So the Pharisees proclaimed to the people, "This man casts out demons only by and with the help of Beelzebub, the prince of demons."


Jesus addresses these stem words to the self-righteous religious leaders of the Jewish nation. Jesus said. words as these demand our careful attention for two reasons: first, in order that we may place no untrue emphasis on them; and, secondly, that we may by no means minimize their terrible meaning. We are in danger of making both these mistakes. We may read into them meanings which He never intended; or we may explain away the most solemn words Jesus Christ ever uttered. The only way in which we can hope to understand, is by taking them in the simplest way possible. Our Lord declared, in the words of the King James Bible, "All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men; but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaks against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come" (Mat. 12:31-32).

The Holy Spirit, on the other hand, is the activity, the action, the motion, the operation, the force, the energy, the influence of God toward men. The English word "spirit" is from the Latin SPIRARE, meaning "to breathe," the words "respiration," "expiration," and "inspiration" all being derived from the same source. Similarly the Greek word PNEUMA comes from PNEO, meaning "to breathe or blow," and the Hebrew RUAHH is believed to come from a root having the same meaning. The Holy Spirit is God's breath, God's out-breathing, God's ENERGY FORCE by which He accomplishes His purpose and executes His will. Many times we have thought of the Holy Spirit as "power," and certainly He has power, but power is basically the ability or capacity to act or do things and it can be latent, dormant, inactively resident in someone or something. "Force," on the other hand, more specifically describes energy projected and exerted on persons or things, and may be defined as "an influence which produces or tends to produce motion, or change of motion." "Power" might be likened to the stored energy in a battery, while "force" could be compared to the current flowing from such battery. "Force," then, more accurately represents the sense of the Hebrew and Greek terms as relating to God's Spirit, and this is borne out by a consideration of the scriptures.

Thus, the Holy Spirit is God's ENERGY FORCE. It is God's energy force projected and exerted upon man. It is God's motion, action and influence in one measure or another upon man. Hence that Spirit is also spoken of as God's "hand" or "fingers." Jesus told the Pharisees, "If I cast out devils by the SPIRIT of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you" (Mat. 12:28). But Luke, in recording the same event, expresses it thus: "If I with the FINGER of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you" (Lk. 11:20). The Holy Spirit is the working, the activity of God usward.

Let's look at that for just a moment. The religious rulers were not in danger of committing the unpardonable sin because they said that Jesus performed miracles by the power of the devil. That is not the condemnation. He says that ALL BLASPHEMIES shall be forgiven men. There is not a sin that you committed yesterday but what if you come to Christ today He would forgive you and accept you. His mercies are higher than the heavens. What then was their problem? They were expressing an attitude of unbelief which was persistent and calculated rejection of the activity of God toward them. They were resisting the Holy Spirit, striving against the influence of God acting upon their minds and hearts.

Notice that later on Stephen was brought before this same group, and he said to them the same thing the Lord Jesus had said: "You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, you do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do you" (Acts 7:51).

They were doing the same thing their fathers had done. In Christ's day they were resisting the Holy Spirit, and the same condition exists today - they are still resisting the Holy Spirit!


Their sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit ran deeper than this. It was not their attitude toward an unseen and invisible God in heaven. It was not their treatment of God manifested outwardly in the flesh before their eyes. It was, rather, their reviling of God's SPIRITUAL ENERGY FORCE, their utter and complete contempt for His illuminating and transforming ACTIVITY TOWARD THEM BY SPIRIT, their impious response to the GRACIOUS ACTION AND INFLUENCE of God in mighty spirit power as He touched the deepest chords within their hearts by the moving and wooing and brooding of the Holy Ghost.


Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaks a word against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come" (Mat. 12:31-32).


I am glad that Jesus said that all manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men. I believe that is true. ALL manner. There is no kind of sin, which because of its kind, or manner, is unpardonable.

Here is what the Lord said: "But whosoever speaks against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come." On the surface it seems conclusive to the unthinking; and it has equally seemed so to learned theologians who have been trained in the channels of orthodox thinking. Yet, as a matter of fact, these words of our Lord are among the strongest collateral evidence that can be produced in support of the truth Hearken! A sin against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven in this "world," nor in the "world" to come.[

While the King James version states that the sin against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven in this world nor in the world to come, that is not quite the meaning of the Greek. The Greek word here translated "world" is AION. This word AION has been translated into fifteen different English words and phrases, many of which convey the wrong meaning entirely. The simple meaning of AION is "age." An AION is "an age." Two AION(S) are two "ages." A thousand AION(S) are a thousand "ages." We can discuss aion later; for there will always be a debate until that which is perfect has come.


Wuest translates, "Whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this age nor in the one about to come." The Weymouth New Testament reads, "Whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit shall obtain forgiveness neither in this age nor in the coming age."

The New International Version renders, "Anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come."

The Emphasized Bible
(Rotherham) says, "Whosoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him either in this age, or the coming."

The Concordant New Testament reads, "Whoever may be saying aught against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be pardoned him, neither in this eon nor in that which is impending."


These words of our Lord, so far from proving that the sin against the Holy Spirit is "unpardonable," distinctly assert, - first, that ALL MANNER of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men, - secondly, that some sins, those, namely, against the Son of man, can be forgiven in the present age, - and, thirdly, that other sins, against the Holy Ghost, cannot be forgiven either in the age when Jesus came to earth, nor in the age that would immediately follow; which last words clearly indicate that some sins not here forgiven may be forgiven in the next age.

 

[JHM]

Well in my view both GOD the Father and Christ the Son are manifestations of the Holy Spirit. Whether or not that constitutes a trinity I shall leave for others to argue.

It is clear however to me that there is some degree of difference between them. The fact that sins against Christ may be forgiven but sins against the Holy Spirit cannot be forgiven is one such difference. Another such difference may be found when the apostles asked Christ when the destruction was to come; and he replied only the Father knew.

I would also note that I would regard it as very risky to assume that sins against the Holy Spirit may be forgiven after some timeline or other.

 

[Ichabod 2]

Well in my view both GOD the Father and Christ the Son are manifestations of the Holy Spirit. Whether or not that constitutes a trinity I shall leave for others to argue.

It is clear however to me that there is some degree of difference between them. The fact that sins against Christ may be forgiven but sins against the Holy Spirit cannot be forgiven is one such difference. Another such difference may be found when the apostles asked Christ when the destruction was to come; and he replied only the Father knew.

I would also note that I would regard it as very risky to assume that sins against the Holy Spirit may be forgiven after some timeline or other.

I am not a doctrine defender; but a truth seeker.

Too long and too often men defend their defenseless doctrines and ignore the facts. God was manifested in the flesh (that is scriptural); why do you need to fragment the God to add to your error; if God the Father was manifested of the Holy Spirit (chapter and verse please)? Notice:

1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Sure there is a difference; but that difference has nothing to do with the false doctrine of the trinity. God is one. Does that mean when God manifested Himself as flesh that the God of the universe ceased to exist; of course not. Of course the Father knew; God (Jesus) had become flesh; he had lowered himself of pure spirit, from His state of omnipotent, (having virtually unlimited authority or influence), omnipotent; (having virtually unlimited authority or influence), omniscience (all knowledge; to all things), omniscient (having infinite awareness, understanding, and insight) 2 : possessed of universal or complete knowledge), omnipotence (an agency or force of unlimited power omnipresent: present in all places at all times) ; to His state of death.
I have already explained the context in reference to the sins of the Holy Spirit can be forgiven, so in light of what God’s Word declares where is the risk? Walk with the present truth God reveals.

​

2 Peter 1:12
Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.​

​

Present truth; in other words as the truth is revealed you move with it.

Back to the main point being is God one not three persons; the Bible declares He is one and never addresses the three persons as so popularly taught.

You still have not addressed the fact that the words three persons does not appear in the Bible.

No trinity if there is no three persons.

 

[Ichabod 2]

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. (KJV)

John 15:26 26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: (KJV)

Who sent the conforter Jesus or the Father?

Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.(KJV)



God was in was in Christ; this was not an indepentant act of Jesus.

 

[JHM]

I feel it is a mistake to refer to Christ as GOD. As I understand it Christ is the SON OF GOD, having GODLIKE qualities; but nonetheless the SON OF GOD. "The only Begotten Son".

I am fairly sure you have not read either "The Book Of Enoch", or "The Book Of Secrets Of Enoch", which expand on the subject somewhat. At a guess you probably regard them as "Non Canonical"; but that's your problem.

I could chase down a bunch of scriptural quotes to support what I am saying; but I regard it as a waste of time, because you will not be convinced; as you seem to have fixed views already.

E.G. You yourself found the quote regarding sins against Christ being forgiven; but not sins against the Holy Spirit. Yet you still seem to feel they are one and the same; whereas I believe that the Holy Spirit is greater than either Christ or God the Father; and that both are manifestations of that spirit.

 

[Ichabod 2]

I feel it is a mistake to refer to Christ as GOD. As I understand it Christ is the SON OF GOD, having GODLIKE qualities; but nonetheless the SON OF GOD. "The only Begotten Son".

I am fairly sure you have not read either "The Book Of Enoch", or "The Book Of Secrets Of Enoch", which expand on the subject somewhat. At a guess you probably regard them as "Non Canonical"; but that's your problem.

I could chase down a bunch of scriptural quotes to support what I am saying; but I regard it as a waste of time, because you will not be convinced; as you seem to have fixed views already.

E.G. You yourself found the quote regarding sins against Christ being forgiven; but not sins against the Holy Spirit. Yet you still seem to feel they are one and the same; whereas I believe that the Holy Spirit is greater than either Christ or God the Father; and that both are manifestations of that spirit.

Christ means anointed; God was manifested in the flesh. God’s Christ was Jesus; as well as the Body of Christ which is us.


I would not waste my time with the Book of Enoch I have seen too many contradictions to scriptures pertaining to this book.

You are the one who is so set in your preconceived bias or as you have stated fixed views; if this was not true you could show me using God’s Word not your opinion that God is three persons.

How can the Holy Spirit be greater than Christ or God; God is one? More babel based on opinion????

You trust far more in what you have been taught then what God's Word declares; now that is religion and why there are 10,000 sisters of Babylon.

 

[Der Alte]

God is one; not three persons. If God is three persons; chapter and verse to back up this false Catholic teaching; If you cannot produce chapter and verse to prove this simple point; there is no trinity.

Jesus was God manifested in the Flesh; that simple; not the second person of the trinity (chapter and verse please).

The Holy Spirit is God with in us not the third person of the trinity (chapter and verse please).

All you have done is say "Is not!""Is too!""Nuh Uh!""Nuh Huh!" You have not addressed a single verse I posted.

Ask any Jew if God is three persons and he will tell you two things, God is one. And God does not change....

Click over at Jews for Jesus, and see how many former orthodox Jews, including Rabbis, are Trinitarian.

By the way none of the verses you quoted have any reference to God being three persons.

No three persons.... NO TRINITY.

By the way just another "Is not!""Is too!""Nuh Uh!""Nuh Huh!" reply without addressing any of the verses I posted.

 

[Ichabod 2]

All you have done is say "Is not!""Is too!""Nuh Uh!""Nuh Huh!" You have not addressed a single verse I posted.


Click over at Jews for Jesus, and see how many former orthodox Jews, including Rabbis, are Trinitarian.


By the way just another "Is not!""Is too!""Nuh Uh!""Nuh Huh!" reply without addressing any of the verses I posted.

You got a point formal Jews. You have not been reading my post. Post on... Give me a verse and we will discuss it.

 

[Der Alte]

Der Alter I'm sure it is easier to be understood by those that already agree with you and your definitions agree with theirs.

Everytime someone tells you here that you are not making sense to them - it is because you have neglected to show cause, or missed defining clearly and consistantly.
ie not adding up from what we are reading of your views.

We have been down this road a few times. I asked you if you had a specific post in mind, let me know and I would discuss it. You have not done that.

None of these verses define God as three persons. None of them use the term trinity nor explain why there are seven spirits at the foot of God's throne on High - or why the Messiah had to have seven spirits upon him.

This argument jumps all over the place again without addressing anything in any of my posts. It would be most helpful if you would quote a specific post and indicate specific points that you don't understand or disagree with.

Do you have any verse in mind which states, or implies, "the Messiah had to have seven spirits upon him?"

God is a blowing wind, a burning fire, and many other things in scripture but "essence" is not a biblical description of God. The invisible God affects our lives unseen like the wind. IE using vague unrefined words like "essence" only complicates the communication.

I have a post above where I discuss the arguments about words used trying to describe God.

The 1st and 6th definitions of "essence," 1. the basic, real, and invariable nature of a thing; substance. . . . 6. something that exists, esp. a spiritual or immaterial entity.

Does the father and Yeshua smell the same "essence/aroma
Is God phylisophically one with Messiah? Essence/believe alike
existance of the immaterial entity/essence.

Is this a legitimate question or just sarcasm?

Well we know that Christ can't be immaterial. We also know that the immiterial have nothing to share as one other than concepts and ideas.

Facts not in evidence.

We are one in the spirit/ we are one body as we work together in Christ. WE are one body in service to God.

This may be true but not relevant to anything I have posted.

Trinity not mentioned in either verse and no "triunity" mentioned. Neither is the word "incarnate" used.

The word "Bible" does NOT occur anywhere is scripture but most people use the word. Therefore this "point" is a logical fallacy, argument from silence.

No Messianic Scriptures to support these traditions.

See my post on the Father, the Son, and Holy Spirit being God, above.

"in the beginning was the word[of God]"
God is what he speaks and does. Before written words, was Torah. And God said let there be, and it was.

And the Word/flesh came infused with grace and truth.

I'm sure you believe this, but that is NOT what John 1 says. I could post several citations from the early church, in support, but I'm equally sure you would not be interested.

Literaly Messiah was given seven spirits. Holiness, wisdom, might, discernement ect.

Do you have scripture to support this? Isaiah tells us what the 7 spirits are.

Yeshua given the Holyspirit of God without measure, over flowing.

Yes, and?

This makes Christ filled with God's devine aspects, but not equal to the imo Father.

See my post above citing 36 verses which address, or refer to Jesus, as God. And there are approximately 40 passages which refer to YHWH in the O.T., that are applied to Jesus in the N.T.

 

[Der Alte]

You got a point formal Jews. You have not been reading my post. Post on... Give me a verse and we will discuss it.

Pick one?

Anti-Trinitarians endlessly squabble and bicker about words, used by Trinitarians, trying to express the nature of God, as revealed in scripture, e.g. “Trinity,””triune,””person,""being,""entity,""substance,""essence," ”nature,” ”who," etc., etc., yada, yada, yada.

All words are inherently finite and imperfect, therefore these words, "Trinity,” ”triune,” ”person," "being," "entity," "substance," "essence,” ”nature,” ”who," and/or any other words one chooses to mention, are totally inadequate to describe God, the infinite, perfect, omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent. But the fact that human words are finite, limited and imperfect does not prove or disprove anything about the doctrine of the Trinity.

Here yet again scriptural truths I have posted before, without any so-called unscriptural words or man made doctrines.

1. There is one God! The Father is called/referred to as God, in scripture, but the Father is not the Son or the Spirit. Numerous vss. e.g., John 6:27, Gal 1:1, Gal 1:3, Eph 6:23, Philippians 2:11, 1 Thess 1:1, 2 Tim 1:2, Titus 1:4, 1 Peter 1:2, 2 Peter 1:17, et. al.

2. There is one God! The Son is called/referred to as God, in scripture, but the Son is not the Father or the Spirit.

[1] Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

[2] Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

[3] Luk 7:16 And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people.

[4] Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

[5] Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

[6] Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

[7] Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

[8] Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten God, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

[9] John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

[10] Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

[11] Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

[12] Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

[13] John 12:41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

[14] Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

[15] Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

[16] Joh 17:10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

[17] Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

[18] Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he [God] hath purchased with his own blood.

[19] Rom 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

[20] 2 Cor 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

[21] Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

[22] Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

[23] Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

[24] Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

[25] Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he [God] saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

[26] Heb 3:3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.
4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.

[27] Phi 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

[28] 1 Tim 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

[29] 1 Tim 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;

[30] 1 Tim 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;

[31] Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

[32] 2 Pet 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

[33] 1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

[34] Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

[35] Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

[36] Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.​

3. There is one God! The Holy Spirit is called/referred to as God, in scripture, but the Spirit is not the Father or the Son. Acts 5:3-4, Acts 28:25-27, Heb 3:7-11, Heb 10:15-17.

There is one God! The Father, the Son, and the Spirit, all three are called/ referred to as God, in scripture, but each has a distinct mind, will, and self; John 16:13, 1 Cor 12:11, Philippians 2:5, John 5:26, Rom 8:27, Matthew 26:39.

 

[Ichabod 2]

Pick one?

[1] Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Where does it say here that emmamuel (as you falsely believe) is the second person of the trinity?

Or perhaps it is speaking of the third person of the trinity (as you falsely believe) seeing the verse declares "God with in us"?

So what is your point in this verse that God is three persons????

 

[ContraMundum]

Ichabod- you're not really making much sense. The Trinity gets all the verses (evidence from revelation) and deals with them plainly, together, complete with all the surrounding tensions between them. Non-Trinitarians do the opposite. They pick one aspect of God and re-interpret all other verses in the light of that.

You pick one verse and expect an entire theology to develop out of it- something you can't do with any single doctrine. The fact of the matter is there are many places that indicate Divinity within Jesus and the Holy Spirit. As Divinity is unique and not a portion of creation it applies only to God. We get the basics for the Trinity from the baptismal formula given in Matthew's Gospel. One singular Name, three separate persons within the One Name.

What non-Trinitarians need to do to prove the Trinity wrong is point out that Divine essence (divinity itself) pertains to created creatures and is not unique to God. The result is Pantheism. However, if a non-Trinitarian says that such divinity is unique only to God, then the statements of scripture that indicate this divinity in the Holy Spirit and Jesus make little sense and must have interpretations cast upon them. To us Trinitarians, this is dishonest.

 

[Ichabod 2]

Ichabod- you're not really making much sense. The Trinity gets all the verses (evidence from revelation) and deals with them plainly, together, complete with all the surrounding tensions between them. Non-Trinitarians do the opposite. They pick one aspect of God and re-interpret all other verses in the light of that.

You pick one verse and expect an entire theology to develop out of it- something you can't do with any single doctrine. The fact of the matter is there are many places that indicate Divinity within Jesus and the Holy Spirit. As Divinity is unique and not a portion of creation it applies only to God. We get the basics for the Trinity from the baptismal formula given in Matthew's Gospel. One singular Name, three separate persons within the One Name.

What non-Trinitarians need to do to prove the Trinity wrong is point out that Divine essence (divinity itself) pertains to created creatures and is not unique to God. The result is Pantheism. However, if a non-Trinitarian says that such divinity is unique only to God, then the statements of scripture that indicate this divinity in the Holy Spirit and Jesus make little sense and must have interpretations cast upon them. To us Trinitarians, this is dishonest.

Talk about given opinion with no scripture to back up your opinion? You speak of revelation but without God’s Word that revelation is sinking sand. Opinion, bias and has no foundation. Oil (anointing) wine (revelation) corn (God’s Word)

 

[Der Alte]

[1] Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Where does it say here that emmamuel (as you falsely believe) is the second person of the trinity?

Or perhaps it is speaking of the third person of the trinity (as you falsely believe) seeing the verse declares "God with in us"?

So what is your point in this verse that God is three persons????

Perhaps you should read the statement which precedes the verses I posted. These verses show that Jesus is God.

And OBTW that verse does NOT say "God with in us" The name Immanuel, means "God WITH us" as Matthew clearly stated.

 

[Ichabod 2]

Perhaps you should read the statement which precedes the verses I posted. These verses show that Jesus is God.

And OBTW that verse does NOT say "God with in us" The name Immanuel, means "God WITH us" as Matthew clearly stated.

Amen, Jesus is God not the second person of the trinty.

On your second point it still does not prove your point the God is three persons.

 

[ContraMundum]

Talk about given opinion with no scripture to back up your opinion? You speak of revelation but without God’s Word that revelation is sinking sand. Opinion, bias and has no foundation. Oil (anointing) wine (revelation) corn (God’s Word)

I didn't intend to offer you scripture until I was sure you would understand my point of view first. Given this rather strange and completely irrelevant response I'm not convinced it is a wise use of my time to talk scripture with someone who didn't even get point 1. first. I leave you to your own eisegesis and authority.

 

[Benoni]

I didn't intend to offer you scripture until I was sure you would understand my point of view first. Given this rather strange and completely irrelevant response I'm not convinced it is a wise use of my time to talk scripture with someone who didn't even get point 1. first. I leave you to your own eisegesis and authority.

opps