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I thought you said you knew it all already. I didn't realise you were looking for answers, I assumed you were looking for debate, which I have no time to give to. Are you interested in converting to the Christian Faith?
i already am a member of The Christian Faith.
i don't understand your point. are you saying that your understanding of the trinity is as i have explained above? ...and no, there's no debating the truth; the truth just is.
You didn't answer the question.
respectfully to you skylark because you are definitely one of the best here, but that was a bad question.
if you want to discuss the truth, fine. debating things that are true is silly.
we don't have to debate. you think the truth is up for debate? that's what satan thinks. you think the base crew of lds that are here to debate? there's no debate. the truth is the truth. they're not debating; they're mostly just calling people on their mistakes.
Debating things that are false is sillier!
debate:
a discussion, as of a public question in an assembly, involving opposing viewpoints
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/debate
I see discussions here all the time that involve opposing viewpoints. I see debate taking place here all the time. Discussing truths, even discussing them with people who hold another view is not of the devil.
that's just it; the truth i.e the kind of truth i'm speaking of or the basic immutable self-existent eternal truths are not subject to the involvement of opposing viewpoints. they are not a matter of opinion.
if you want to debate your opinions, have fun. i think that's really what you are talking about. it is a bit silly to debate the existence of gravity. opinions are a different matter.
regarding the devil. please don't skew my words into something they are not. what i indicated was that satan and those who follow him apparently think that it makes sense to argue with even God about how things are and how they should be. can you imagine debating with God?
Anti-Trinitarians endlessly squabble and bicker about words, used by Trinitarians, trying to express the nature of God, as revealed in scripture, e.g. Trinity,triune,person,""being,""entity,""substance,""essence," nature, who," etc., etc., yada, yada, yada.
All words are inherently finite and imperfect, therefore these words, "Trinity, triune, person," "being," "entity," "substance," "essence, nature, who," and/or any other words one chooses to mention, are totally inadequate to describe God, the infinite, perfect, omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent. But the fact that human words are finite, limited and imperfect does not prove or disprove anything about the doctrine of the Trinity.
Here yet again scriptural truths I have posted before, without any so-called unscriptural words or man made doctrines.
1. There is one God! The Father is called/referred to as God, in scripture, but the Father is not the Son or the Spirit. Numerous vss. e.g., John 6:27, Gal 1:1, Gal 1:3, Eph 6:23, Philippians 2:11, 1 Thess 1:1, 2 Tim 1:2, Titus 1:4, 1 Peter 1:2, 2 Peter 1:17, et. al.
2. There is one God! The Son is called/referred to as God, in scripture, but the Son is not the Father or the Spirit.
[1] Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
3. There is one God! The Holy Spirit is called/referred to as God, in scripture, but the Spirit is not the Father or the Son. Acts 5:3-4, Acts 28:25-27, Heb 3:7-11, Heb 10:15-17.
[2] Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
[3] Luk 7:16 And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people.
[4] Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
[5] Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
[6] Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
[7] Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
[8] Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten God, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
[9] John 10:30 I and my Father are one.
[10] Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
[11] Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
[12] Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
[13] John 12:41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.
[14] Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
[15] Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
[16] Joh 17:10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
[17] Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
[18] Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he [God] hath purchased with his own blood.
[19] Rom 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
[20] 2 Cor 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
[21] Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
[22] Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
[23] Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
[24] Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
[25] Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he [God] saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
[26] Heb 3:3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.
4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.
[27] Phi 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
[28] 1 Tim 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
[29] 1 Tim 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;
[30] 1 Tim 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
[31] Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
[32] 2 Pet 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
[33] 1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
[34] Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
[35] Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
[36] Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
There is one God! The Father, the Son, and the Spirit, all three are called/ referred to as God, in scripture, but each has a distinct mind, will, and self; John 16:13, 1 Cor 12:11, Philippians 2:5, John 5:26, Rom 8:27, Matthew 26:39.
Truth can be debated, and should be because God hides His deeper truth.
Prov 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to
search out a matter.
In reference to the trinity. The day someone shows me God is made up of three persons (chapter and verse please) is the day I believe in the trinity. Without three persons there is no trinity; God is simply one.
Here's a thought or maybe even two: When the Lord Jesus Christ ascended back to heaven from what some think was his second nature (earth) back to his first nature (heaven) he, according to Phil. 2:9-11, was given a superior role in that all creation show bow to Jesus to the glory of God. How can an equal being in his primary nature be given something if as an equal he would of had it already, even before coming to earth?
Or maybe the verse in 1Cor.15:24-28 when the heavenly Lord Jesus Christ hands back the Kingdom to his Father after all powers, governments and even death are done away with, things that will take up a great part of the 1,000 years alotted to Jesus' share of the Kingdom. It's a stckey wicket or first base for any trinitarian this. Because the scripture reads further in verse 27, " For God subjected all things under his feet. But when he says, "all things have been subjected," it is evident that it is with the exception of the one who subjected all things to him." Now this is quite telling for there is an unequal status going on here with God the Father having more than the Son, which is against the trinity theory of equality to all three "god's." Then we read in verse 28, " But when all things have been subjected to him, then the Son will subject himself to the Father who subjected all things to him, so that God may be all things to everyone."
Trinitarians: How can a supposedly equal Son subject himself to a supposedly equal Father? Subjection means you, in this case, hand over to God a completed assignment which will be a completely peaceful and transformed new system as opposed to what we have now. Further no mention was made to the third equal party in this, that of the holy spirit. How could the Son give back something or even be given it if they are all equal? This is why many of us "heretics" understand the trinity to be of unscriptual basis and it is as the title of the thread states it is wrong.
There is a thread in the mormon section of unorthodox theology which might interest you. It concerns Bart Ehrman.
As to the several early sects of christianity that you speak of, I'm sure you'll find that their views would contradict the subject matter concerning Christ Jesus and his deity. Ehrmans claim of altered texts to conform to Catholic dogma is quite unfounded. There are simply too many texts of 1-3rd century early church fathers to alter and skew. Besides, I'm quite sure an omnipotent and sovereign God can get the correct message sent, yes?
God does command His people to not worship other Gods. Trinitarianism worships one God revealed to us in 3 persons. Not a pantheon of Gods as many falsely portray.
I challenge you to read Bert Ehrman's book. The book details his background to provide perspective into his insights. He is an authority in Bible textual criticism and learned from the best in the world. His claims are NOT unfounded and he offers proof. Please read it if you think your faith can handle it.
Hugs,
CC
Evidence? Documentation? Substantiation? For a more detailed view, with evidence, read Dr. Dan Wallace's 26 page review of Ehrman's book at this link. See e.g. the final paragraph in Wallace's conclusion.
I grieve for what has happened to an acquaintance of mine, a man I have known and admiredand continue to admirefor over a quarter of a century. It gives me no joy to put forth this review. But from where I sit, it seems that Barts black and white mentality as a fundamentalist has hardly been affected as he slogged through the years and trials of life and learning, even when he came out on the other side of the theological spectrum. He still sees things without sufficient nuancing, he overstates his case, and he is entrenched in the security that his own views are right. Bart Ehrman is one of the most brilliant and creative textual critics Ive ever known, and yet his biases are so strong that, at times, he cannot even acknowledge them.75 Just months before Misquoting Jesus appeared, the fourth edition of Metzgers Text of the New Testament was published. The first three editions were written solely by Metzger and bore the title The Text of the New Testament: Its Transmission, Corruption, and Restoration. The fourth edition, now co-authored with Ehrman, makes such a title seem almost disingenuous. The reader of Misquoting Jesus might be tempted to think that the subtitle of Metzgers fourth edition should have been called simply Its Transmission and Corruption.76Wallace has taught PhD level Greek at Dallas Theological Seminary for 30 + years.
Interesting...and I know this is a contested subject. However...until you read the book for yourself and examine the evidence he puts forth yourself...you can't really know. The title 'Misquoting Jesus' is actually misleading. The book is really a Bible Textual Criticism 101 from one of the best in the world. Read it...if you think your faith can handle it. BTW...EVERYONE has bias.
Hugs,
CC
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