Trinitarians: Which part of the Trinity is Jehovah?

[Meowzltov]

1. Now that Jesus is in heaven, is Jesus a separate being from God the Father?

It is still One God, three persons.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings Open Heart,

It's true. The "right hand of the Father" is a figurative expression.

It is still One God, three persons.

I appreciate your two responses, but I was mainly trying to communicate with donfish06 as he presents a different view to the Trinity. I was interested in his view as I am also a non-Trintaraian but have a different perspective to his position. I had a brief discussion with him on The Trinity thread, but there were so many views presented that I decided to move here.

I cannot at all understand or accept the Trinity, as I find it incomprehensible as the Athanasian Creed suggests, and I also find it does not agree with the Scriptures. I believe and the scriptures clearly declare that there is One God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ is The Son of God.

Nevertheless if you want to properly consider and discuss this subject, then I can also suggest that you have not made your position altogether clear on Psalm 110:1. Have you really considered the language of Psalm 110:1 and the way this passage is quoted and applied in the NT?

To give my perspective in line with the subject of this thread (Which part of the Trinity is Jehovah): The Name “Yahweh” in Psalm 110:1 is used for God the Father, not for the Lord Jesus Christ. The simple, clear statement found in Psalm 110:1 appears to be contrary to both the Trinitarian position and the different view presented by donfish06.

How do you understand the relationship between Yahweh, God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ after his resurrection and exaltation?

Also out of interest, on your Avatar you claim to be Catholic, but also “Hebrew Catholic”. What does “Hebrew” represent, for example as far as belief or status in a denomination? Or does it represent something different?

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Meowzltov]

Greetings Open Heart,



I appreciate your two responses, but I was mainly trying to communicate with donfish06 as he presents a different view to the Trinity. I was interested in his view as I am also a non-Trintaraian but have a different perspective to his position. I had a brief discussion with him on The Trinity thread, but there were so many views presented that I decided to move here.

I cannot at all understand or accept the Trinity, as I find it incomprehensible as the Athanasian Creed suggests, and I also find it does not agree with the Scriptures. I believe and the scriptures clearly declare that there is One God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ is The Son of God.

Nevertheless if you want to properly consider and discuss this subject, then I can also suggest that you have not made your position altogether clear on Psalm 110:1. Have you really considered the language of Psalm 110:1 and the way this passage is quoted and applied in the NT?

To give my perspective in line with the subject of this thread (Which part of the Trinity is Jehovah): The Name “Yahweh” in Psalm 110:1 is used for God the Father, not for the Lord Jesus Christ. The simple, clear statement found in Psalm 110:1 appears to be contrary to both the Trinitarian position and the different view presented by donfish06.

How do you understand the relationship between Yahweh, God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ after his resurrection and exaltation?

Also out of interest, on your Avatar you claim to be Catholic, but also “Hebrew Catholic”. What does “Hebrew” represent, for example as far as belief or status in a denomination? Or does it represent something different?

Kind regards
Trevor

I believe that the tetragrammaton refers to the Father.

The "hebrew" in Hebrew Catholic refers to the fact that I'm a Jew as well as a Catholic. I didn't suddenly become a gentile when I became a Christian, and so I have not given up my Jewish traditions. I still keep sabbath, eat kosher, and observe the Jewish holy days in addition to doing my Catholic obligations. There are many Hebrew Catholics around the world, and especially in Israel. We have our own bishop. While the average Catholic is unaware of us, we have the full support of Rome. Our website is www.hebrewcatholic.net You will find we are just as Catholic as can be, but with our Jewish twist.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings Open Heart,

I believe that the tetragrammaton refers to the Father.

I agree that the tetragrammaton refers to the Father. Perhaps where we differ is that I believe that the Father is the One and only true God, while Jesus is not God the Son, but the Son of God.
John 17:1-3 (KJV): 1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent
John 20:31 (KJV): But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

The "hebrew" in Hebrew Catholic refers to the fact that I'm a Jew as well as a Catholic. I didn't suddenly become a gentile when I became a Christian, and so I have not given up my Jewish traditions. I still keep sabbath, eat kosher, and observe the Jewish holy days in addition to doing my Catholic obligations. There are many Hebrew Catholics around the world, and especially in Israel. We have our own bishop. While the average Catholic is unaware of us, we have the full support of Rome. Our website is www.hebrewcatholic.net You will find we are just as Catholic as can be, but with our Jewish twist.

I appreciate the information. My personal feeling is that the more you understand the OT and the language of the OT then it would be difficult to be a Catholic, especially on the subject of the Trinity. Also the use of images by Catholics does not sit comfortably with Jewish beliefs and traditions, except only when they were apostate, and idolatry seemed to be a problem mainly before the Babylonian captivity.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[xpower]

http://www.reasonablefaith.org/defenders-2-podcast/s5

 

[Meowzltov]

I appreciate the information. My personal feeling is that the more you understand the OT and the language of the OT then it would be difficult to be a Catholic, especially on the subject of the Trinity. Also the use of images by Catholics does not sit comfortably with Jewish beliefs and traditions, except only when they were apostate, and idolatry seemed to be a problem mainly before the Babylonian captivity.

I understand your problems with the Trinity. I cannot help but see that the scripture shows that Jesus is God, beginning with John 1. The thing with images is they are only idols if you worship them as a deity. The inspirational art in a Catholic church is only ceramic, it has no powers.

 

[donfish06]

I understand your problems with the Trinity. I cannot help but see that the scripture shows that Jesus is God, beginning with John 1. The thing with images is they are only idols if you worship them as a deity. The inspirational art in a Catholic church is only ceramic, it has no powers.

Like Mary?

 

[Meowzltov]

Like Mary?

Mary can do one thing. She can pray for us to the Father through her son.

 

[donfish06]

Mary can do one thing. She can pray for us to the Father through her son.

Where is that in the scripture?

 

[Meowzltov]

Where is that in the scripture?

Rev 8:4 and the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, rose before God from the hand of the angel.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

And where did the elders in Paradise get the prayers they offered up?

Rev 5:8
And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Open Heart,

I understand your problems with the Trinity. I cannot help but see that the scripture shows that Jesus is God, beginning with John 1.

It is partly off the subject of the thread to discuss the Trinity in detail. In brief I would understand John 1 firstly by comparing the language of Proverbs 8, Psalm 33:6,9 and Isaiah 55:9-11 where the “Word” is given a semi-personification. I see the “Word” in John 1:1 as a personification, not the 2nd Person of the Trinity, but a separation of the concept of the Mind and Purpose of God to show the continuation of this in and through Jesus, who was “full of grace and truth”. Consider also the full import of “The Word was made flesh” and the glory being ascribed to the fact that Jesus was begotten of the Father. I understand the concept of begotten here as similar to Matthew and Luke’s account of the conception and birth of Jesus by the power of the Holy Spirit. As a result of this Jesus was the Son of God, God the Father being his father, while Mary was his mother.

I have had a thorough discussion of the Trinity on another forum, but also on this forum I briefly presented a thread “Yahweh is God”, both in this portion of the Board and in the formal debate section with a member who had a different agenda than a Trinitarian. I tried to develop the subject from the OT perspective at first and then showed the development of the Name Yahweh in and through Jesus. The OT does not teach the Trinity, but Trinitarians attempt to impose their theology upon some passages in the OT. If a Trinitarian understood more of the OT language they would have a better understanding of the NT teaching on this subject. Greek philosophy replaced the Hebrew basis of the NT.

The thing with images is they are only idols if you worship them as a deity. The inspirational art in a Catholic church is only ceramic, it has no powers.

My impression of some of the image processions in different parts of the world, and the relentless kissing of the toe of St Peter as a little more than ceramic. Josiah destroyed the brass serpent.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[donfish06]

Rev 8:4 and the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, rose before God from the hand of the angel.

Nowhere does that under that they are dead saints. Sorry. You also can not build a doctrine upon one verse. There is only ONE instance of communicating to the passes on, and Saul lost his life for it.

 

[Meowzltov]

The OT does not teach the Trinity

No, it doesn't, and although I'm a trinitarian, I have little patience with those who try to impose it where it is not.

 

[Meowzltov]

You also can not build a doctrine upon one verse.

We also have the instance of Christ going to Moses and Elijah.

Now, what verses do you have forbidding asking the saints for their prayers? None. You have the general teaching that we are one body in Christ. It never divides us into two (one dead and one alive) and simply says pray for one another.

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

But God teaches that He is in many forms in the Torah. It's obvious in the Hebrew word forms and the different names for God. And it speaks to His Son, coming in the clouds to liberate man and to redeem man, in the promise to never destroy mankind again. That is in Genesis 9.

I'd say that is the essence of the Trinity, contained from the very Beginning, for those with eyes to see and ears to hear. Though Trinity is really not a completely accurate label for the many forms of the One God, it's nice because it represents the numeral 3 which is a very sacred number.

 

[Meowzltov]

Nowhere does that under that they are dead saints

The passage is referring back to the saints which have come out of the tribulation and are dressed in white robes.

 

[donfish06]

We also have the instance of Christ going to Moses and Elijah.

Now, what verses do you have forbidding asking the saints for their prayers? None. You have the general teaching that we are one body in Christ. It never divides us into two (one dead and one alive) and simply says pray for one another.

I told you, when Saul spoke with Samuel. He lost his life for it.

The scripture never forbids us to marry a horse, so I guess it must be okay!

 

[donfish06]

The passage is referring back to the saints which have come out of the tribulation and are dressed in white robes.

Either way, it is the prayer OF the saints, not the prayer TO the saints. Remember the Saints under the Alter we're crying for vengence. God is now answering that prayer. Nowhere does it say that anyone prayed to these saints.

Show me one place in the scriptures where ANYONE prayed to another man. Prayer is left to God alone.

 

[xpower]

Guess this may help, In this debate there was a lot of talk about the trinity and what it is.