Trinitarianism: What Non-Trinitarians Believe

[Der Alte]

Iesous is Greek, it is not Hebrew.

I am aware of that. Did you read my post at all? Here is your post and my response again.

E was introduced into Hebrew as a vowel after 200 AD. Look up HaYah and HaWah. OLD HEBREW / ANCIENT HEBREW / ARAMAIC

If this is correct then Jesus' name in Hebrew would have been Yahshuah. So I wonder why the Jews who translated the LXX about 250 BC transliterated it as Iesous instead of Iahsous since according to you they did not have the vowel "E" until 450 years later.

You claim that Hebrew did not have the vowel "E" until 200 AD.

The OT was translated into Greek, in the Septuagint, LXX, by Hebrew speaking Jewish scholars ca. 250 BC.

In the LXX the name of Joshua, יהושׁוּע was always transliterated as Ἰησοῦς, pronounced yaysous. If you don't know, this is Jesus' name in Hebrew.

If, as you claim, Hebrew did not have the vowel "E" why didn't the Jewish scholars 250 BC transliterate Yehoshua as Yahsous?

Another word which occurs many times in the OT, Israel. In 250 BC Israel was transliterated Ισραηλ, Israayl. Not Isra-ahl or Isra-il.

 

[Der Alte]

In the pre-Exilic period, the following three consonants, ה hey, ן waw, י yod, were used at the end of a word to indicate final vowels. Beginning in the post-Exilic period, waw and yod were also used as vowel indicators within a word.

The English name Joshua is from the Hebrew language "(Yehoshua / Yahshua)", meaning, Yah’s Helper. As an interpretation it could also mean, God’s Salvation.

Note: It is the opinion of some scholars that too many vowels are added to the Hebrew language.

Note: Investigations of Qumranic and Mishnaic Hebrew (ca. 50 B.C.E.-200 C.E.) indicate that post biblical Hebrew phonology was different than that of biblical Hebrew.

Your source? Who are those "some scholars"? This is a logical fallacy, appeal to authority, and anonymous as well.

 

[Der Alte]

Let me know when you are done looking at the pics so I can delete them.

What is it exactly you are trying to show with these pages? Three of the words you have arrows pointing to, 10252, 10262 and 10263 have the "E" vowel. 10252 and 10262 have a short vowel but it is still "E" indicated by a superscript [sup]e[/sup]. Your own evidence refutes your argument.

 

[CherubRam]

I'm done!

 

[Truthseeker1971]

Trinitarianism: What Non-Trinitarians Believe.

I would like to think that those who brought me up in the Trinity doctrine told me the truth to the best of their ability, the truth as they know it.

The reason why so many Christians are so firm about Trinitarianism, is because they believe that it is a divine truth from the Holy Spirit.
When people believe a doctrine is a divine truth from the Holy Spirit, then there is little you can say to convince them otherwise.

Like I always say, "Truth is made known by the reason of the facts."
Facts first, feelings last. When I prayed about it, it was revealed to me that I had deceived myself by my own feelings.
From now on its facts first.


God or god. A God or a god. It was understood that the Messiah would be an immortal being from heaven.

If Trinitarianism is a biblical truth, then how come it has never been taught in Orthodox Judaism?

Why did it take Pagans who were recent converts to Christianity to reveal this?

Orthodox Judaism has always known about Trinitarianism. The only Jews who believed in Trinitarianism were Pagans, Mystics, Hellenist, and Kabbalist.

We are all made in the image of God, and we also are called to be ONE in unity with the Father.

The word gnostic or gnosis was also used in a derogatory way by Gnostics against anyone who did not agree with Catholicism.

There were two different groups of Gnostic's during the first centuries AD.
The first group of Gnostic's were opposed to Christianity.
The other group of Gnostic's were not opposed, and joined Pagan notions to Christianity.
The Gnostic Christians believed in Sunday Sabbath, authority of the Pope, and Trinitarianism, while the Judaizing Christians were opposed to such things as Catholicism [Universalism.]

Micah 5:2
"But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times. "

Deuteronomy 18:15
The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own brothers. You must listen to him.

Psalm 82:6
"I said, 'You are "gods"; you are all sons of the Most High.'

John 10:34
Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods' ? 35If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken— 36what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'?

The word "Godhead" is not in the original scripture, but is a interpretation. The term "Godhead" was first introduced by John Wycliffe (1330-1384 C.E.) in English Bible versions as godhede.

The word "Godhead" is a interpretation of three different Greek words, theion (meaning "divinity, deity", # 2304 in Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament) at Acts 17:29, theiotçs (meaning "divinity, divine nature", # 2305 in Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament) at Romans 1:20, and theotçs (meaning "deity", # 2320 in Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament)

Both Yahwah and Yahshua are called Lord.

It was not until Around the sixth century, the word Filioque was added to the Nicene Creed, defining as a doctrinal teaching that the Holy Spirit "proceeds from the Father and the Son."

In Judaism, the idea of God as a duality or trinity is heretical.

In the only codices which would be even likely to preserve an older reading, namely the Sinaitic Syriac and the oldest Latin Manuscript, the pages are GONE which contained the end of Matthew 28. Frederick Cornwallis Conybeare (1856 - 9 January 1924) Professor of Theology at the University of Oxford.

Here is the oldest recorded document of Matthew 28:19.

"The Demonstratio Evangelica" by Eusebius:
Eusebius of Caesarea. 265 ? AD.– 337 ? AD.

Eusebius was the Church historian and Bishop of Caesarea. On page 152 Eusebius quotes the early book of Matthew that he had in his library in Caesarea. Eusebius informs us of Yahshua's actual words to his disciples in the original text of Matthew 28:19.

Quote: "With one word and voice He said to His disciples: "Go, and make disciples of all nations in My Name, teaching them to observe all...

And again Eusebius for example, in Book III of his History, Chapter 5, Section 2, which is about the Jewish persecution of early Christians, we read:

"But the rest of the disciples, who had been incessantly plotted against with a view to their destruction, and had been driven out of the land of Judea, went to all nations to preach the good news, relying upon the power of Christ, who had said to them, "Go ye and make disciples of all the nations in my name."


And again, in his Oration in Praise of Emperor Constantine, Chapter 16, Section 8, we read:

"What king or prince in any age of the world, what philosopher, legislator or prophet, in civilized or barbarous lands, has attained so great a height of excellence, I say not after death, but while living still, and full of mighty power, as to fill the ears and tongues of all mankind with the praises of his name?
Surely none save our only Savior has done this, when, after his victory over death, he spoke these words to his followers, and fulfilled it by that event, saying to them, "Go ye and make disciples of all nations in my name."

There is not a single occurrence of the disciples baptizing anyone using the Trinitarian formula. All of the scripture in the New Testament shows that people were baptized into the name of Yahshua, even after Pentecost.

And when people in church leadership received the Holy Spirit, it was without the Trinitarian formula as in Acts 8:17.
Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

Trinity related

Acts 20:28 Holman bible foot note. Other mss read church of the Lord; other mss read church of the Lord and God

Acts 20:28 NIV foot note. Many manuscripts: “of the Lord” 28Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers.(a) Be shepherds of the church of God,(b) which he bought with his own blood.

1 Timothy 3:16 Holman bible foot note. Other mss read God
1 Timothy 3:16 NIV foot note. Some manuscripts God

1 Timothy 3:16 (New International Version)
16Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great:
He(a) appeared in a body,(b)
was vindicated by the Spirit,
was seen by angels,
was preached among the nations,
was believed on in the world,
was taken up in glory.

Footnotes:
a. 1 Timothy 3:16 Some manuscripts God
b. 1 Timothy 3:16 Or in the flesh


1 John 3:16 In this we have known the charity of God, because he hath laid down his life for us:...

The words (of God) are not in the original text of 1 John 3:16, but have been added.

NIV 1 John 5
6 This is the one who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 7 For there are three that testify: 8 the[See a] Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.

NIV Footnotes:
a.1 John 5:8 Late manuscripts of the Vulgate testify in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. And there are three that testify on earth: the (not found in any Greek manuscript before the fourteenth century)

KJV 1 John 5:6
This is he that came by water and blood, Jesus Christ: not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit which testifieth, that Christ is the truth. 7And there are three who give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost. And these three are one.

1 John 5:7 implicitly states that all THREE are ONE.

This is the only verse in the Bible that explicitly states that all three persons are one.
Unfortunately, it was added to that verse.
No earlier version includes that last phrase about them being one.

The first 2 additions of Erasmus' master Greek text did not have this.
Stunica (a Catholic authority) demanded that he include the phrase.
Erasmus told Stunica that if he could provide one Greek manuscript with that phrase, he would include it.
But no Greek manuscripts up to that time had it.
Only Latin manuscripts had it. So Stunica had a Greek manuscript made up from the Latin and forced Erasmus to include it.

In 1514, before Erasmus had even begun to edit his text, but its publication was delayed until 1522, until permission of Pope Leo X had finally been obtained for it.

"The supreme Pontiff Leo X, Our Most Holy Father in Christ and Lord, desiring to favour this undertaking, sent from the apostolic library."

This claim seems to have been accepted by all at that time.
In view of its inclusion in the Clementine edition of the Latin Vulgate (1592), in 1897 the Holy Office in Rome, a high ecclesiastical congregation, made an authoritative pronouncement, approved and confirmed by Pope Leo XIII, that it is not safe to deny that this verse is an authentic part of St. John's Epistle."


Here’s some more info on the trinity doctrine.
"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind." (Col 2:16-18)

1 Tim 6:20
"O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called."

The "oppositions of science falsely so called." is the opposition to Jewish and Pagan Gnosticism.

Science is "gnosis" in the Greek.

Philosophy and Gnosticism is the "profane and vain babblings" the Congregations had to combat.

The worshipping of angels was then and is now one of the distinctive marks of Jewish Kabbalism. Kabbalism today use’s angels, magic, and astrology in their occult system, attempting to control their destiny.

The Jewish Encyclopedia says: "The principal elements of Gnosticism were derived from Jewish speculation." The Jewish Encyclopedia also states that: "It is a noteworthy fact that heads of Gnostic schools and founders of Gnostic systems are designated as Jews by the early Church fathers."

The Roman Catholic Church with its philosophy of a hidden God who should be approached through intermediaries such as saints and angels is the same distinctive doctrine of the Kabbalah.

The angel that the Kabbalists call Metatron, is the female god of the Kabbalah, which they call the "shekhinah", it has emerged into Catholic theology as Mary.
The Catholic Church also absorbed the asceticism of the Gnostics into a system of celibacy for monks, priests and nuns.

Albert Pike, a high prophet of Freemasonry, spoke on the origin of Trinitarianism. In his secret book "Morals and Dogma" he says of the Kabbalist "Jews were the direct precursors of Gnosticism," their Kabbalist doctrine is derived from their captivity while in Babylon.

Philo of Alexandria was a Jew who played a key role in the development of the Trinitarian theory. Pike says, he was a Kabbalist "a initiate of the mysteries."


The Jewish Encyclopedia: “We are forced to conclude that the Pharisees introduced an element of confusion into Christian theology which we still have not emerged from.”

"Cast me not away from your presence; and take not your Holy Spirit from me" (Psalms 51:11.)
Moses received the Holy Spirit (Isaiah 63:11.)
Christ was filled with the Holy Spirit (Luke 4:1.) Was he filled with another person inside his body? No. He was filled with the presence of God.

"He that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me; Upon whom you shall see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he, which baptizes with the Holy Spirit" (John 1:33.)

So here we see a change. People are now given the opportunity to receive the Holy Spirit at baptism. This means more people (not just prophets and patriarchs) would receive the Holy Spirit.

"And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance" (Acts 2:4.)
Peter told the people at Jerusalem about Jesus being crucified and they responded by asking what they should do.

"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:38.)

Was Peter telling them they could receive a person into their body? No.

So after the day of Pentecost (which is the same day as the Feast of First Fruits) people were able to repent, be baptized, and receive the Holy Spirit. No longer was this for only a few as in the Old Testament.

There is no mention of the word trinity in the entire Bible.

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.



John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Just because the Word Trinity isn't in the bible doesn't mean it is not there

The Trinity is taught in the Old Testament scriptures too, something the ancient Rabbins long knew about but most Jews have been blinded to the truth

The word 'elohim' itself is PLURAL, meaning "these three are God".

And in Genesis when God the Father says Let US make man in our image....WHO IS HE TALKING TO? Non- Trinitarians teach that God was talking to the angels but there are problems with this. Such as the angels are not creators, they are created beings and we are made in the image of God alone not in the image of created beings.

 

[Der Alte]

I'm done!

Well! Bye!

 

[CherubRam]

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.



John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Just because the Word Trinity isn't in the bible doesn't mean it is not there

The Trinity is taught in the Old Testament scriptures too, something the ancient Rabbins long knew about but most Jews have been blinded to the truth

The word 'elohim' itself is PLURAL, meaning "these three are God".

And in Genesis when God the Father says Let US make man in our image....WHO IS HE TALKING TO? Non- Trinitarians teach that God was talking to the angels but there are problems with this. Such as the angels are not creators, they are created beings and we are made in the image of God alone not in the image of created beings.

A plural name title does not make a plural being.

Royal or Majestic we in Hebrew

The "Let us" in Genesis1:26, can be easily explained by the following example:

I see a group of children sitting and I tell them, "Let us play soccer!"

It is I who did the talking to an audience.

And Genesis 1:27 clarifies immediately by saying, "And God created man in His image"

Thus, it is still Yahwah who is Elohiym, who created man.

Foot note a. 1 John 5:8 Late manuscripts of the Vulgate testify in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. And there are three that testify on earth: the (not found in any Greek manuscript before the fourteenth century)

John 1
The Greek verse reads:
Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.
En archē ēn ho logos, kai ho logos ēn pros ton theon, kai theos ēn ho logos.

If it meant that the Word and God were the same person, the grammar syntax would reflect it by saying καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν ὁ θεός kai ho logos ēn ho theos. This is direct equivalence. By dropping the article (&#8001 and moving the word θεός before the verb, it creates a sort of categorical nature. It doesn't say that "the Word was God" but that "the Word was divine" or "god like."

 

[Gibs]

When we talk about 1 Jo 5:7 we need to note that never is it said in any scripture that the ONE is THREE!

1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Now it does tell us that God is a Spirit and of course the Holy Ghost or Spirit,

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Now we know that Jesus was the Word made flesh and that the Father dwelt in Him in ALL fullness,

Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

 

[Der Alte]

A plural name title does not make a plural being.

Royal or Majestic we in Hebrew

The "Let us" in Genesis1:26, can be easily explained by the following example:

I see a group of children sitting and I tell them, "Let us play soccer!"

It is I who did the talking to an audience.

Who was the audience that God was supposedly talking to before He created man? Animals? Are there any examples of the so-called royal or majestic "we" anywhere in the OT?

And Genesis 1:27 clarifies immediately by saying, "And God created man in His image"

Thus, it is still Yahwah who is Elohiym, who created man.

Are you familiar at all with Jewish history? Even the ancient Jews were aware of the plurality of YHWH in O.T. times.

8. R. Samuel b. Nahman said in R. Jonathan's name: When Moses was engaged in writing the Torah, he had to write the work of each day. When he came to the verse, AND GOD SAID: LET us MAKE MAN, etc., he said: 'Sovereign of the Universe! Why dost Thou furnish an
excuse to heretics?'1 'Write,' replied He; 'whoever wishes to err may err.’
1 For maintaining a plurality of gods.

R. Simlai said: Wherever you find a point [apparently] supporting the heretics, you find the refutation at its side. They asked him again: 'What is meant by, AND GOD SAID: LET us MAKE MAN?' 'Read what follows,' replied he: 'not, "And gods created (wa-yibre'u) man" is written here, but "And God created wa-yibra" (Gen. I, 27). When they went out his disciples said to him : ' Them you have dismissed with a mere makeshift, but how will you answer us?'

Midrash Rabbah Genesis I Translated Into English With Notes, Glossary And Indices
Under The Editorship Of Rabbi Dr. H. Freedman, B.A., Ph.D..​

Foot note a. 1 John 5:8 Late manuscripts of the Vulgate testify in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. And there are three that testify on earth: the (not found in any Greek manuscript before the fourteenth century)

If you ignore Cyprian, 250 AD.

Cyprian 250 AD Treatise I On The Unity of the church.

The Lord says, "I and the Father are one; " and again it is written of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, "And these three are one.” And does any one believe that this unity which thus comes from the divine strength and coheres in celestial sacraments, can be divided in the Church, and can be separated by the parting asunder of opposing wills? He who does not hold this unity does not hold God's law, does not hold the faith of the Father and the Son, does not hold life and salvation.

ANF05. Fathers of the Third Century: Hippolytus, Cyprian, Caius, Novatian, Appendix - Christian Classics Ethereal Library​

John 1
The Greek verse reads:
Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.
En archē ēn ho logos, kai ho logos ēn pros ton theon, kai theos ēn ho logos.

If it meant that the Word and God were the same person, the grammar syntax would reflect it by saying καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν ὁ θεός kai ho logos ēn ho theos. This is direct equivalence. By dropping the article (&#8001 and moving the word θεός before the verb, it creates a sort of categorical nature. It doesn't say that "the Word was God" but that "the Word was divine" or "god like."

What did you say your qualifications in Greek were? Can you give any examples where θεός/Theos or any similar noun is used in a "categorical nature." If John had wanted to say godlike, etc. he would not have used a noun but an adjective such as; θεῖος; Act 17:29, θειότης, Rom 1:20; θεότης, Col 2:9. Let's read what a real Greek scholar says.

Dr. Dan Wallace who has taught graduate level Greek for more than 30 years. Translation notes from NET, edited by Dr. Wallace.

3tn Or “and what God was the Word was.” Colwell’s Rule is often invoked to support the translation of θεός (qeos) as definite (“God”) rather than indefinite (“a god”) here. However, Colwell’s Rule merely permits, but does not demand, that a predicate nominative ahead of an equative verb be translated as definite rather than indefinite. Furthermore, Colwell’s Rule did not deal with a third possibility, that the anarthrous predicate noun may have more of a qualitative nuance when placed ahead of the verb. A definite meaning for the term is reflected in the traditional rendering “the word was God.” From a technical standpoint, though, it is preferable to see a qualitative aspect to anarthrous θεός in John 1:1c (ExSyn 266-69). Translations like the NEB, REB, and Moffatt are helpful in capturing the sense in John 1:1c, that the Word was fully deity in essence (just as much God as God the Father). However, in contemporary English “the Word was divine” (Moffatt) does not quite catch the meaning since “divine” as a descriptive term is not used in contemporary English exclusively of God. The translation “what God was the Word was” is perhaps the most nuanced rendering, conveying that everything God was in essence, the Word was too. This points to unity of essence between the Father and the Son without equating the persons. However, in surveying a number of native speakers of English, some of whom had formal theological training and some of whom did not, the editors concluded that the fine distinctions indicated by “what God was the Word was” would not be understood by many contemporary readers. Thus the translation “the Word was fully God” was chosen because it is more likely to convey the meaning to the average English reader that the Logos (which “became flesh and took up residence among us” in John 1:14 and is thereafter identified in the Fourth Gospel as Jesus) is one in essence with God the Father. The previous phrase, “the Word was with God,” shows that the Logos is distinct in person from God the Father.

sn And the Word was fully God. John’s theology consistently drives toward the conclusion that Jesus, the incarnate Word, is just as much God as God the Father. This can be seen, for example, in texts like John 10:30 (“The Father and I are one”), 17:11 (“so that they may be one just as we are one”), and 8:58 (“before Abraham came into existence, I am”). The construction in John 1:1c does not equate the Word with the person of God (this is ruled out by 1:1b, “the Word was with God”); rather it affirms that the Word and God are one in essence.​

 

[Usus Vox Tractus]

Elohim is at least two beings. "Let us make man in our image after our likeness......" "In the Image of God, He created them....male and female He created them."

 

[Gibs]

The "we" is easily explained> That is but the Father with His Redeemer He extended of Himself before any thing.

Here is the Elohiym and notice it states I and not we!

Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Possessed in this next verse mean extension,

Pr 8:22 ¶ The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
Pr 8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

Possessed in Hebrew,

7069. qanah
hnq qanah kaw-naw'
a primitive root; to erect, i.e. create; by extension, to procure, especially by purchase (causatively, sell); by implication to own:--attain, buy(-er), teach to keep cattle, get, provoke to jealousy, possess(-or), purchase, recover, redeem, X surely, X verily.

And we can note it was LORD of Hosts that came in Jesus in the fullness of time,

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Isa 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

 

[Der Alte]

The "we" is easily explained> That is but the Father with His Redeemer He extended of Himself before any thing.

Here is the Elohiym and notice it states I and not we!

Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Possessed in this next verse mean extension,

Pr 8:22 ¶ The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
Pr 8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

Possessed in Hebrew,

7069. qanah
hnq qanah kaw-naw'
a primitive root; to erect, i.e. create; by extension, to procure, especially by purchase (causatively, sell); by implication to own:--attain, buy(-er), teach to keep cattle, get, provoke to jealousy, possess(-or), purchase, recover, redeem, X surely, X verily.

And we can note it was LORD of Hosts that came in Jesus in the fullness of time,

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Isa 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

I think you are misunderstanding the lexicon definition. The phrase "by extension" is not part of the definition it is a reference, just as the phrase "by implication" is a reference. "קנה/qanah to erect, i.e. create; by extension, [it also means] to procure, especially by purchase (causatively, sell); by implication [it also means] to own:--attain, buy(-er), teach to keep cattle, get, provoke to jealousy, possess(-or), purchase, recover, redeem,"

 

[Gibs]

I think you are misunderstanding the lexicon definition. The phrase "by extension" is not part of the definition it is a reference, just as the phrase "by implication" is a reference. "קנה/qanah to erect, i.e. create; by extension, [it also means] to procure, especially by purchase (causatively, sell); by implication [it also means] to own:--attain, buy(-er), teach to keep cattle, get, provoke to jealousy, possess(-or), purchase, recover, redeem,"

"IF" your analysis is correct then we have two Gods of which they are both YHWH and that is not a truth as there is but one God.

You surely can see LORD of Hosts is King of Israels Redeemer and note these verses,

Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no savior.

It was Yah of Hosts that came and dwelt in Jesus Christ the Body prepared in the fullness of time made of woman

Then when it is all finished we read of the time the Father one again becomes ALL IN ALL, His extension is finally returned to Him and is all in all finally, no longer is a Redeemer ever to be needed.

1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God MAY BE ALL IN ALL.

 

[CherubRam]

When we talk about 1 Jo 5:7 we need to note that never is it said in any scripture that the ONE is THREE!

1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Now it does tell us that God is a Spirit and of course the Holy Ghost or Spirit,

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Now we know that Jesus was the Word made flesh and that the Father dwelt in Him in ALL fullness,

Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

The Trinity formula is (not found in any Greek manuscript before the fourteenth century)

The word "Godhead" also does not exist in the scriptures. It is a recent man made word.

 

[Der Alte]

"IF" your analysis is correct then we have two Gods of which they are both YHWH and that is not a truth as there is but one God.
You surely can see LORD of Hosts is King of Israels Redeemer and note these verses,

I can't help you with this but I do know that "by extension" is not a definition of קנה/qanah

Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no savior.

No problem here.

It was Yah of Hosts that came and dwelt in Jesus Christ the Body prepared in the fullness of time made of woman

There is no scripture which states this. John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Logos and the Logos was with God and the Logos was God."

Then when it is all finished we read of the time the Father one again becomes ALL IN ALL, His extension is finally returned to Him and is all in all finally, no longer is a Redeemer ever to be needed.

1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God MAY BE ALL IN ALL.

Phi 2:6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
Phi 2:7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
Phi 2:8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death-- even death on a cross!
Phi 2:9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,
Phi 2:10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
Phi 2:11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.​

 

[Der Alte]

The Trinity formula is (not found in any Greek manuscript before the fourteenth century)

Nonsense! It is in every existing manuscript which has the ending of Matthew and the Triadic formula was quoted by every early church father who quotes Matt 28:19

Here are 15 writings of the early church fathers verifying that the Triadic formula was a part of Matthew’s gospel, dating from more than 67 years to more than 218 years before the Nicaean council. You will notice that every one of these is a direct quote from, with links to, the primary source, not 2d and 3d hand quotes, from some unknown anti-Trinitarian’s website.

1. The Epistle of Ignatius to the Philadelphians [30-107 a.d.], a disciple of John. [218 + years before Nicaea]

Chapter IX.-The Old Testament is Good: the New Testament is Better

"Go ye and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." All then are good together, the law, the prophets, the apostles, the whole company [of others] that have believed through them: only if we love one another.

ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

2. Irenaeus Against Heresies Book III [a.d. 120-202.], a student of Polycarp, who was a disciple of John. [123 + years before Nicaea]

That is the Spirit of whom the Lord declares, "For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you."308 And again, giving to the disciples the power of regeneration into God,309 He said to them," Go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."310

ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

3. Tertullian The Prescription Against Heretics.1 [a.d. 145-220]. [105 + years before Nicaea]

Accordingly, after one of these had been struck off, He commanded the eleven others, on His departure to the Father, to "go and teach all nations, who were to be baptized into the Father, and into the Son, and into the Holy Ghost."203

ANF03. Latin Christianity: Its Founder, Tertullian - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

3a. Tertullian-On Baptism. [105 + years before Nicaea]

For the law of baptizing has been imposed, and the formula prescribed: "Go," He saith, "teach the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit."

ANF03. Latin Christianity: Its Founder, Tertullian - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

4. The Extant Works and Fragments of Hippolytus. - Part II.-Dogmatical and Historical. (c.170-c.236). [89 + years before Nicaea]

The Father's Word, therefore, knowing the economy (disposition) and the will of the Father, to wit, that the Father seeks to be worshipped in none other way than this, gave this charge to the disciples after He rose from the dead: "Go ye and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."265 And by this He showed, that whosoever omitted any one of these, failed in glorifying God perfectly. For it is through this Trinity that the Father is glorified. For the Father willed, the Son did, the Spirit manifested. The whole Scriptures, then, proclaim this truth.

ANF05. Fathers of the Third Century: Hippolytus, Cyprian, Caius, Novatian, Appendix - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

5. The Treatises of Cyprian -Treatise XII.1 Three Books of Testimonies Against the Jews. [c.200-258] [67 + years before Nicaea]

And He laid His right hand upon me, and said, Fear not; I am the first and the last, and He that liveth and was dead; and, lo, I am living for evermore289 and I have the keys of death and of hell."290 Likewise in the Gospel, the Lord after His resurrection says to His disciples: "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go therefore and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you.

ANF05. Fathers of the Third Century: Hippolytus, Cyprian, Caius, Novatian, Appendix - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

6. Origen de Principiis Book I] [c.185-c.254] [71 + years before Nicaea]

From all which we learn that the person of the Holy Spirit was of such authority and dignity, that saving baptism was not complete except by the authority of the most excellent Trinity of them all, i.e., by the naming of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and by joining to the unbegotten God the Father, and to His only-begotten Son, the name also of the Holy Spirit.

ANF04. Fathers of the Third Century: Tertullian, Part Fourth; Minucius Felix; Commodian; Origen, Parts First and Second - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

7. The Lord's Teaching Through the Twelve Apostles to the Nations.1
Chapter VII.-Concerning Baptism. [120 AD] [205 years before Nicaea]

1. And concerning baptism,73 thus baptize ye:74 Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit[/b ],75 in living water.76 2. But if thou have not living water, baptize into other water; and if thou3canst not in cold, in warm. 3. But if thou have not either, pour out water thrice77 upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit. 4. But before the baptism let the4baptizer fast, and the baptized, and whatever others can; but thou shalt order the baptized to fast one or two days before.

ANF07. Fathers of the Third and Fourth Centuries: Lactantius, Venantius, Asterius, Victorinus, Dionysius, Apostolic Teaching and Constitutions, Homily - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

8. Constitutions of the Holy Apostles1 Book II. Of Bishops, Presbyters, and Deacons. [Late 2d to early 3d century] [100 + years before Nicaea]

Let the presbyters be esteemed by you to represent us the apostles, and let them be the teachers of divine knowledge; since our Lord, when He sent us, said, "Go ye, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you."

ANF07. Fathers of the Third and Fourth Centuries: Lactantius, Venantius, Asterius, Victorinus, Dionysius, Apostolic Teaching and Constitutions, Homily - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

9. Life and Conduct of the Holy Women Xanthippe, Polyxena, and Rebecca [mid 3d century] [75 years before Nicaea]

XIV. Therefore the great Paul straightway taking her hand, went into the house of Philotheus, and baptised her in the name of the Father and of the Son and the Holy Ghost.

ANF10. Bibliographic Synopsis; General Index - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

10. Tatian - The Diatessaron [ca 175] [150 years before Nicaea]

Then said Jesus unto them, I have been given all authority in heaven 5 and earth; and as my Father hath sent me, so I also send you. Go now into 6 all the world, and preach my gospel in all the creation; and teach all the peoples, and 7 baptize them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit; and teach them to keep all whatsoever I commanded you: and lo, I am with you all the days, unto 8 the end of the world.

Diatessaron

11. At the seventh Council of Carthage in 256 [69 years before Nicaea], a bishop named Vincentius of Thibaris said, "We have assuredly the rule of truth which the Lord by His divine precept commanded to His apostles, saying, 'Go ye, lay on hands in My name, expel demons.' And in another place: "Go ye and teach the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.'" Vincentius' second quotation is from Matthew 28:19. Despite attempts by some interpreters to connect the first quotation to Matthew 10:8, the references to going, laying on hands, expelling demons, and doing so in My name add up to a reference to Mark 16:15- 18, especially when placed side-by-side with the parallel passage from Matthew

http://www.waynecoc.org/MarkTwo.html

Seventh Council of Carthage - Concerning the Baptism of Heretics. The Judgment of Eighty-Seven Bishops on the Baptism of Heretics. 256 a.d. [69 years before Nicaea]

12. Lucius of Castra Galbae said: Since the Lord in His Gospel said, "Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt should have lost its savour, wherewith shall it be salted? It is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out of doors, and to be trodden under foot of men." And again, after His resurrection, sending His apostles, He gave them charge, saying, "All power is given unto me, in heaven and in earth. Go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."

13. Munnulus of Girba said: The truth of our Mother6 the Catholic Church, brethren, hath always remained and still remains with us, and even especially in the Trinity of baptism, as our Lord says, "Go ye and baptize the nations, in the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit."

14. Euchratius of Thenae said: God and our Lord Jesus Christ, teaching the apostles with His own mouth, has entirely completed our faith, and the grace of baptism, and the rule of the ecclesiastical law, saying: "Go ye and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."

15. Vincentius of Thibaris said: We know that heretics are worse than Gentiles. If, therefore, being converted, they should wish to come to the Lord, we have assuredly the rule of truth which the Lord by His divine precept commanded to His apostles, saying, "Go ye, lay on hands in my name, expel demons." And in another place: "Go ye and teach the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."

ANF05. Fathers of the Third Century: Hippolytus, Cyprian, Caius, Novatian, Appendix - Christian Classics Ethereal Library​

The word "Godhead" also does not exist in the scriptures. It is a recent man made word.

What do you mean "recent?"

 

[2ducklow]

The Trinity formula is (not found in any Greek manuscript before the fourteenth century)

The word "Godhead" also does not exist in the scriptures. It is a recent man made word.

It's 1 john 5.7 "these three are one" not matthew 28.19, that came into existence in scriptures very late, like the 14th century.

I John 5:7, also known as, the Comma Johanneum, is found in only eight late Greek manuscripts, four of which have the words in a marginal note. These marginal glosses were added after the original copy was made. Most of these manuscripts originate from the sixteenth century and the earliest manuscript, includes the reading in a marginal note which was added sometime after the original composition. There is no sure evidence the Comma Johanneum existed in any Greek manuscript until the early sixteenth century or perhaps the fifteenth century at best. From what we do know, it seems the Comma somehow found its way into Latin manuscripts sometime in the fourth or fifth century. It does not appear in any Greek script of any kind until 1215 A.D. where we find it in a Greek translation of the Acts of the Lateran Council, a work originally written in Latin.

The Trinity Delusion: 1 John 5:7

the triadic formula doesn't exist in any greek manuscript, whole or portions, before the council of Nicea which was in 325 AD.

As to the word Godhead, it's old English for Godhood. But of course almost no one takes the word Godhead to mean godhood. Most everyone uses Godhead to mean the place the trinity hangs out.

 

[CherubRam]

A plural name title does not make a plural being.

Royal or Majestic we in Hebrew

The "Let us" in Genesis1:26, can be easily explained by the following example:

I see a group of children sitting and I tell them, "Let us play soccer!"

It is I who did the talking to an audience.

And Genesis 1:27 clarifies immediately by saying, "And God created man in His image"

Thus, it is still Yahwah who is Elohiym, who created man.

Foot note a. 1 John 5:8 Late manuscripts of the Vulgate testify in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. And there are three that testify on earth: the (not found in any Greek manuscript before the fourteenth century)

John 1
The Greek verse reads:
Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.
En archē ēn ho logos, kai ho logos ēn pros ton theon, kai theos ēn ho logos.

If it meant that the Word and God were the same person, the grammar syntax would reflect it by saying καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν ὁ θεός kai ho logos ēn ho theos. This is direct equivalence. By dropping the article (&#8001 and moving the word θεός before the verb, it creates a sort of categorical nature. It doesn't say that "the Word was God" but that "the Word was divine" or "god like."

Bump

 

[Gibs]

The Father alone is the Godhead. Only one is the Head of ALL.

1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

Yah of Hosts is the extension of the Father, Yah King of Israel and Paul cinches that fact in an above post I posted and will post the last verse of Paul's statement again,

1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

That statement cinches it that The Father now has His extended Deity returned to Him for a Redeemer and was named Yah of Hosts of who in the fullness of time came and dwelt in Jesus Christ FULLY! He was the creator of Hosts and all and all this problem He was sent of the Father to take care of.

He speaks out through Christ and did many times and Christ also spoke as a man.

Joh 7:29 But I know him: for I am from him, and he hath sent me.

It was Yah of Hosts in Christ that could and did rightly state, I am the first and I am the last!

Yes there will come the time that the vested Deity in Christ is returned as no more is a Redeemer needed,

Na 1:9 What do ye imagine against the LORD? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time.

I had this out with Sister This and she would not receive it and it is up to you to or not to.

It just cannot be any other way. God is a Spirit and this is far from impossible for Him. God is not limited in any way that He cannot be and do what He needs and wants.

He is Omnipotent, Omniscient and Omnipresent!

 

[CherubRam]

The Father alone is the Godhead. Only one is the Head of ALL.

1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

Yah of Hosts is the extension of the Father, Yah King of Israel and Paul cinches that fact in an above post I posted and will post the last verse of Paul's statement again,

1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

That statement cinches it that The Father now has His extended Deity returned to Him for a Redeemer and was named Yah of Hosts of who in the fullness of time came and dwelt in Jesus Christ FULLY! He was the creator of Hosts and all and all this problem He was sent of the Father to take care of.

He speaks out through Christ and did many times and Christ also spoke as a man.

Joh 7:29 But I know him: for I am from him, and he hath sent me.

It was Yah of Hosts in Christ that could and did rightly state, I am the first and I am the last!

Yes there will come the time that the vested Deity in Christ is returned as no more is a Redeemer needed,

Na 1:9 What do ye imagine against the LORD? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time.

I had this out with Sister This and she would not receive it and it is up to you to or not to.

It just cannot be any other way. God is a Spirit and this is far from impossible for Him. God is not limited in any way that He cannot be and do what He needs and wants.

He is Omnipotent, Omniscient and Omnipresent!

The term "Godhead" is an English variant of the word "godhood" and was first introduced by John Wycliffe (1330-1384 C.E.) in English Bible versions as godhede. The word "Godhead" is a translation of three different Greek words, theion (meaning "divinity, deity", # 2304 in Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament) at Acts 17:29, theiotēs (meaning "divinity, divine nature", # 2305 in Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament) at Romans 1:20, and theotēs (meaning "deity", # 2320 in Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament) at Colossians 2:9.