Trinitarianism: What Non-Trinitarians Believe

[CherubRam]

Because we don't have a problem with "God is only." There is [only] one God. The Father is God but He is not the Son or the Holy Spirit. The Son is God but He is not the Father or the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is God but He is not the Son or the Father. There is one God.

And who was it that determined that the Holy Spirit was a third person? Answer: The Catholic Church.

 

[Gibs]

Most Christians today understand the scriptures themselves and do not rely on anyone, esteemed or not, to program anything.

הלוך את־חכמים וחכם ורעה כסילים ירוע׃

If they TRULY understood the scriptures aright, we would all see alike and have unity and harmony but that is non existent in all but a few!

 

[CherubRam]

Watch for Tar Baby.

 

[Gibs]

I love Isa on this subject,

Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

In the next verse we see the elohiym revealed. The extension of Himself, LORD of Hosts, Notice it is stated twice "I"!

Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; "I" am the first, and "I" am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Isa 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

De 6:4 ¶ Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

LORD of Hosts was extended of LORD King of Israel way, way back into eternity and is even seen as the babe playing at His feet when in the fullness of time LORD of Hosts by His zeal would come and be in union with Jesus made of woman, Mary. This account is in Proverbs, 8:22 and on.

 

[CherubRam]

There is only One God.

Trinitarianism has never been a belief in Judaism.


Joshua 22:22
“The One Mighty God, Yahwah! The One Mighty God, Yahwah! He knows! And let Israel know! If this has been in rebellion or disobedience to Yahwah, do not spare us this day.

2 Kings 19:15
And Hezekiah prayed to the Lord: “Lord, the God of Israel, enthroned between the cherubim, you alone are God over all the kingdoms of the earth. You have made heaven and earth.

2 Kings 19:19
Now, Lord our God, deliver us from his hand, so that all the kingdoms of the earth may know that you alone, Lord, are God.”

Nehemiah 9:6
You alone are Yahwah. You made the heavens, even the highest heavens, and all their starry host, the earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them. You give life to everything, and the multitudes of heaven worship you.

Psalm 50:1
A psalm of Asaph. The One Mighty God, Yahwah, speaks and summons the earth from the rising of the sun to where it sets.

Psalm 83:18
Let them know that you, whose name is Yahwah— that you alone are the Most High over all the earth.

Psalm 86:10
For you are great and do marvelous deeds; you alone are God.

Malachi 2:10
Do we not all have one Father ? Did not one God create us? Why do we profane the covenant of our ancestors by being unfaithful to one another?

Malachi 2:15
Has not the one God made you? You belong to him in body and spirit. And what does the one God seek? Godly offspring. So be on your guard, and do not be unfaithful to the wife of your youth.

Romans 3:30
since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith.

1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Messiah Yashua, for whom all things came and through whom we live.

Ephesians 4:6
one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in all.

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Messiah Yashua,…

James 2:19
You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

Revelation 15:4
Who will not fear you, Lord, and bring glory to your name? For you alone are holy.[/QUOTE]


God says that He is the only one and that there are no others. If Trinitarianism is the truth, then why does God not know He is a Trinity.

Only Yahwah is God

Exodus 20:3. "You shall have no other [gods / elohiyms] before me.

Deuteronomy 4:35. You were shown these things so that you might know that [the LORD / Yahwah] is [God / Elohiym]; besides Him there is no other.

Deuteronomy 4:39. Acknowledge and take to heart this day that [the LORD / Yahwah] is [God / Elohiym] in heaven above and on the earth below. There is no other.

Deuteronomy 5:7. "You shall have no other [gods / elohiyms] before me.

Deuteronomy 6:4. Hear, O Israel: [The Lord / Yahwah] our [God / Elohiym], [the LORD / Yahwah] is [one / only.]

1 Kings 8:60. So that all the peoples of the earth may know that [the LORD /Yahwah] is [God / Elohiym] and that there is no other.

Isaiah 42:8. "I am [the LORD / Yahwah]; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another, or my praise to idols.

Isaiah 43:10. "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD (Yahwah), "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am He. Before me no [god / God] (el / El) was formed, nor will there be one after me.

Isaiah 44:8. Do not tremble, do not be afraid. Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago? You are my witnesses. Is there any [Eloah / God above] besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one."
If there is no other Rock, then Peter is not the foundation of the congregation that Yahshua was speaking of. There are many places in scripture where Yahwah is called the Rock. The disciples would have been well aware of that fact.

Matthew 16:18. 18And I tell you that you are Peter, [and / but] on [this / that] Rock I will build...

Isaiah 45:5. I am [the LORD / Yahwah], and there is no other; apart from me there is no [God / Elohiym].

6. so that from the rising of the sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides me. I am [the LORD / Yahwah], and there is no other.

Isaiah 45:14. This is what [the LORD / Yahwah] says: "The products of Egypt and the merchandise of Cush, and those tall Sabeans— they will come over to you and will be yours; they will trudge behind you, coming over to you in chains. They will bow down before you and plead with you, saying, 'Surely [God / El] is with you, and there is no other; there is no other [god / God (Elohiym).' "

Isaiah 45:18. For this is what [the LORD / Yahwah] says: He who created the heavens, He is [God / Elohiym]; He who fashioned and made the earth, He founded it; He did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited: He says: "I am [the LORD / Yahwah], and there is no other.
Since Yahwah created the world to be inhabited and not empty, that means there will be people living on Earth during the thousand year reign of Christ.

Isaiah 45:22. "Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am [God / El], and there is no other.

Isaiah 46:9. Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am [God / El], and there is no other; I am [God / Elohiym], and there is none like me.

Joel 2:27. Then you will know that I am in Israel, that I am [the LORD / Yahwah] your [God / Elohiym], and that there is no other; never again will my people be shamed.

The Greatest Commandment

Mark 12:28. One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus (Yahshua) had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"
29"The most important one," answered Jesus (Yahshua), "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, [the Lord / Yahwah] our [God / Elohiym], [the Lord / Yahwah] is [one (only).

Mark 12:32. "Well said, teacher," the man replied. "You are right in saying that [God / Yahwah],is [one (only) and there is no other but Him.

John 14:28. "You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you love me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

Yahshua says the Father is greater than him. That would mean that they are not equally the same.
The correct spelling and pronouncing of God's name as Yahwah, is based on the fact that the Proto-Semitic did not use the letter “e” as a vowel. Yahwah is the trans-literal into English. Yahuah is pronounced the same as Yahwah, and it is the same name.

 

[CherubRam]

Tar Baby, Huh.

 

[CherubRam]

Good morning! Cricket, cricket, cricket.

 

[Der Alte]

. . . Yahshua says the Father is greater than him. That would mean that they are not equally the same.

Phi 2:6 In God's own form existed he, And shared with God equality, Deemed nothing needed grasping.​

The correct spelling and pronouncing of God's name as Yahwah, is based on the fact that the Proto-Semitic did not use the letter “e” as a vowel. Yahwah is the trans-literal into English. Yahuah is pronounced the same as Yahwah, and it is the same name.

You used the words El and Elohim several times in this post. Elohim occurs 2334 times in the OT and El occurs 307 times.

Somebody has given you false information. How could Elohim or El be pronounced as they are if there was no "letter “e” as a vowel?" Please provide your source for this information? Here is information from the Jewish Encyclopedia showing the correct pronunciation of יהוה/YHWH. It is not Yahuah or Yahwah!

Jewish Encyclopedia-Names of God
In appearance, Yhwh (יהוה) is the third person singular imperfect "kal" of the verb ( הוה ("to be"), meaning, therefore, "He is," or "He will be," or, perhaps, "He lives," the root idea of the word being,probably, "to blow," "to breathe," and hence, "to live." With this explanation agrees the meaning of the name given in Ex. iii. 14, where God is represented as speaking, and hence as using the first person—"I am" (אהיה, from ( היה, the later equivalent of the archaic stem ( הוה). The meaning would, therefore, be "He who is self-existing, self-sufficient," or, more concretely, "He who lives," the abstract conception of pure existence being foreign to Hebrew thought. There is no doubt that the idea of life was intimately connected with the name Yhwh from early times. He is the living God, as contrasted with the lifeless gods of the heathen, and He is the source and author of life (comp. I Kings xviii.; Isa. xli. 26-29, xliv. 6-20; Jer. x. 10, 14; Gen. ii. 7; etc.). So familiar is this conception of God to the Hebrew mind that it appears in the common formula of an oath, "hai Yhwh" (= "as Yhwh lives"; Ruth iii. 13; I Sam. xiv. 45; etc.).

If the explanation of the form above given be the true one, the original pronunciation must have been Yahweh ((יהוה) or Yahaweh (יהוה). From this the contracted form Jah or Yah (יה ) is most readily explained, and also the forms Jeho or Yeho (יהו ), and Jo or Yo (יו contracted from יהו , which the word assumes in combination in the first part of compound proper names, and Yahu or Yah (יהו ) in the second part of such names. The fact may also be mentioned that in Samaritan poetry יהוה rimes with words similar in ending to Yahweh, and Theodoret ("Quæst. 15 in Exodum") states that the Samaritans pronounced the name Iαβέ. Epiphanius ascribes the same pronunciation to an early Christian sect. Clement of Alexandria, still more exactly, pronounces 'Iαουέ or 'Iαουαί, and Origen, 'Iα. Aquila wrote the name in archaic Hebrew letters. In the Jewish-Egyptian magic-papyri it appears as Ιαωουηε. At least as early as the third century B.C. the name seems to have been regarded by the Jews as a "nomen ineffabile," on the basis of a somewhat extreme interpretation of Ex. xx. 7 and Lev. xxiv. 11 (see Philo, "De Vita Mosis," iii. 519, 529). Written only in consonants, the true pronunciation was forgotten by them. The Septuagint, and after it the New Testament, invariably render κύριος ("the Lord").

Jewish Encyclopedia online​

 

[CherubRam]

Phi 2:6 In God's own form existed he, And shared with God equality, Deemed nothing needed grasping.​

You used the words El and Elohim several times in this post. Elohim occurs 2334 times in the OT and El occurs 307 times.

Somebody has given you false information. How could Elohim or El be pronounced as they are if there was no "letter “e” as a vowel?" Please provide your source for this information? Here is information from the Jewish Encyclopedia showing the correct pronunciation of יהוה/YHWH. It is not Yahuah or Yahwah!

Jewish Encyclopedia-Names of God
In appearance, Yhwh (יהוה) is the third person singular imperfect "kal" of the verb ( הוה ("to be"), meaning, therefore, "He is," or "He will be," or, perhaps, "He lives," the root idea of the word being,probably, "to blow," "to breathe," and hence, "to live." With this explanation agrees the meaning of the name given in Ex. iii. 14, where God is represented as speaking, and hence as using the first person—"I am" (אהיה, from ( היה, the later equivalent of the archaic stem ( הוה). The meaning would, therefore, be "He who is self-existing, self-sufficient," or, more concretely, "He who lives," the abstract conception of pure existence being foreign to Hebrew thought. There is no doubt that the idea of life was intimately connected with the name Yhwh from early times. He is the living God, as contrasted with the lifeless gods of the heathen, and He is the source and author of life (comp. I Kings xviii.; Isa. xli. 26-29, xliv. 6-20; Jer. x. 10, 14; Gen. ii. 7; etc.). So familiar is this conception of God to the Hebrew mind that it appears in the common formula of an oath, "hai Yhwh" (= "as Yhwh lives"; Ruth iii. 13; I Sam. xiv. 45; etc.).

If the explanation of the form above given be the true one, the original pronunciation must have been Yahweh ((יהוה) or Yahaweh (יהוה). From this the contracted form Jah or Yah (יה ) is most readily explained, and also the forms Jeho or Yeho (יהו ), and Jo or Yo (יו contracted from יהו , which the word assumes in combination in the first part of compound proper names, and Yahu or Yah (יהו ) in the second part of such names. The fact may also be mentioned that in Samaritan poetry יהוה rimes with words similar in ending to Yahweh, and Theodoret ("Quæst. 15 in Exodum") states that the Samaritans pronounced the name Iαβέ. Epiphanius ascribes the same pronunciation to an early Christian sect. Clement of Alexandria, still more exactly, pronounces 'Iαουέ or 'Iαουαί, and Origen, 'Iα. Aquila wrote the name in archaic Hebrew letters. In the Jewish-Egyptian magic-papyri it appears as Ιαωουηε. At least as early as the third century B.C. the name seems to have been regarded by the Jews as a "nomen ineffabile," on the basis of a somewhat extreme interpretation of Ex. xx. 7 and Lev. xxiv. 11 (see Philo, "De Vita Mosis," iii. 519, 529). Written only in consonants, the true pronunciation was forgotten by them. The Septuagint, and after it the New Testament, invariably render κύριος ("the Lord").

Jewish Encyclopedia online​

Originally in ancient Hebrew the word for God would have been translated as IL. Not until after the second century AD was it changed to EL. The name of God was removed from the New Testament by the Catholics.

 

[Der Alte]

Originally in ancient Hebrew the word for God would have been translated as IL. Not until after the second century AD was it changed to EL.

Please provide your evidence for this. Second request.

The name of God was removed from the New Testament by the Catholics.

There is no, zero, none manuscript evidence for this assertion. There are parts of NT manuscripts dating to the 1st century. None of the existing manuscripts have El, Elohim or Yahweh. There was no "Catholic church" with a pope in Rome at its head until 1075. At that time Hildebrand the bishop of Rome issued 27 Dictatus Papae, Papal dictates, and unilaterally usurped authority over the total church. Until that tim eht bishop of Rome ahd no more authority than any other bishop. Here a few of those dictates.

2. That the Roman pontiff alone can with right be called universal.
...
8. That he alone may use the imperial insignia.
9. That of the pope alone all princes shall kiss the feet.
10. That his name alone shall be spoken in the churches.
11. That this is the only name in the world.
12. That it may be permitted to him to depose emperors.
...
19. That he himself may be judged by no one.

Internet History Sourcebooks Project​

 

[CherubRam]

Please provide your evidence for this. Second request.



There is no, zero, none manuscript evidence for this assertion. There are parts of NT manuscripts dating to the 1st century. None of the existing manuscripts have El, Elohim or Yahweh. There was no "Catholic church" with a pope in Rome at its head until 1075. At that time Hildebrand the bishop of Rome issued 27 Dictatus Papae, Papal dictates, and unilaterally usurped authority over the total church. Until that tim eht bishop of Rome ahd no more authority than any other bishop. Here a few of those dictates.

2. That the Roman pontiff alone can with right be called universal.
...
8. That he alone may use the imperial insignia.
9. That of the pope alone all princes shall kiss the feet.
10. That his name alone shall be spoken in the churches.
11. That this is the only name in the world.
12. That it may be permitted to him to depose emperors.
...
19. That he himself may be judged by no one.

Internet History Sourcebooks Project​

Where do you see the name of God in the New Testament, from the disciples quoting scriptures that contain the name of God?

There is only One God.

Trinitarianism has never been a belief in Judaism.


Joshua 22:22
“The One Mighty God, Yahwah! The One Mighty God, Yahwah! He knows! And let Israel know! If this has been in rebellion or disobedience to Yahwah, do not spare us this day.

2 Kings 19:15
And Hezekiah prayed to the Lord: “Lord, the God of Israel, enthroned between the cherubim, you alone are God over all the kingdoms of the earth. You have made heaven and earth.

2 Kings 19:19
Now, Lord our God, deliver us from his hand, so that all the kingdoms of the earth may know that you alone, Lord, are God.”

Nehemiah 9:6
You alone are Yahwah. You made the heavens, even the highest heavens, and all their starry host, the earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them. You give life to everything, and the multitudes of heaven worship you.

Psalm 50:1
A psalm of Asaph. The One Mighty God, Yahwah, speaks and summons the earth from the rising of the sun to where it sets.

Psalm 83:18
Let them know that you, whose name is Yahwah— that you alone are the Most High over all the earth.

Psalm 86:10
For you are great and do marvelous deeds; you alone are God.

Malachi 2:10
Do we not all have one Father ? Did not one God create us? Why do we profane the covenant of our ancestors by being unfaithful to one another?

Malachi 2:15
Has not the one God made you? You belong to him in body and spirit. And what does the one God seek? Godly offspring. So be on your guard, and do not be unfaithful to the wife of your youth.

Romans 3:30
since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith.

1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Messiah Yashua, for whom all things came and through whom we live.

Ephesians 4:6
one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in all.

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Messiah Yashua,…

James 2:19
You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

Revelation 15:4
Who will not fear you, Lord, and bring glory to your name? For you alone are holy.[/QUOTE]


God says that He is the only one and that there are no others. If Trinitarianism is the truth, then why does God not know He is a Trinity.

Only Yahwah is God

Exodus 20:3. "You shall have no other [gods / elohiyms] before me.

Deuteronomy 4:35. You were shown these things so that you might know that [the LORD / Yahwah] is [God / Elohiym]; besides Him there is no other.

Deuteronomy 4:39. Acknowledge and take to heart this day that [the LORD / Yahwah] is [God / Elohiym] in heaven above and on the earth below. There is no other.

Deuteronomy 5:7. "You shall have no other [gods / elohiyms] before me.

Deuteronomy 6:4. Hear, O Israel: [The Lord / Yahwah] our [God / Elohiym], [the LORD / Yahwah] is [one / only.]

1 Kings 8:60. So that all the peoples of the earth may know that [the LORD /Yahwah] is [God / Elohiym] and that there is no other.

Isaiah 42:8. "I am [the LORD / Yahwah]; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another, or my praise to idols.

Isaiah 43:10. "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD (Yahwah), "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am He. Before me no [god / God] (el / El) was formed, nor will there be one after me.

Isaiah 44:8. Do not tremble, do not be afraid. Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago? You are my witnesses. Is there any [Eloah / God above] besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one."
If there is no other Rock, then Peter is not the foundation of the congregation that Yahshua was speaking of. There are many places in scripture where Yahwah is called the Rock. The disciples would have been well aware of that fact.

Matthew 16:18. 18And I tell you that you are Peter, [and / but] on [this / that] Rock I will build...

Isaiah 45:5. I am [the LORD / Yahwah], and there is no other; apart from me there is no [God / Elohiym].

6. so that from the rising of the sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides me. I am [the LORD / Yahwah], and there is no other.

Isaiah 45:14. This is what [the LORD / Yahwah] says: "The products of Egypt and the merchandise of Cush, and those tall Sabeans— they will come over to you and will be yours; they will trudge behind you, coming over to you in chains. They will bow down before you and plead with you, saying, 'Surely [God / El] is with you, and there is no other; there is no other [god / God (Elohiym).' "

Isaiah 45:18. For this is what [the LORD / Yahwah] says: He who created the heavens, He is [God / Elohiym]; He who fashioned and made the earth, He founded it; He did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited: He says: "I am [the LORD / Yahwah], and there is no other.
Since Yahwah created the world to be inhabited and not empty, that means there will be people living on Earth during the thousand year reign of Christ.

Isaiah 45:22. "Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am [God / El], and there is no other.

Isaiah 46:9. Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am [God / El], and there is no other; I am [God / Elohiym], and there is none like me.

Joel 2:27. Then you will know that I am in Israel, that I am [the LORD / Yahwah] your [God / Elohiym], and that there is no other; never again will my people be shamed.

The Greatest Commandment

Mark 12:28. One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus (Yahshua) had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"
29"The most important one," answered Jesus (Yahshua), "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, [the Lord / Yahwah] our [God / Elohiym], [the Lord / Yahwah] is [one (only).

Mark 12:32. "Well said, teacher," the man replied. "You are right in saying that [God / Yahwah],is [one (only) and there is no other but Him.

John 14:28. "You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you love me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

Yahshua says the Father is greater than him. That would mean that they are not equally the same.
The correct spelling and pronouncing of God's name as Yahwah, is based on the fact that the Proto-Semitic did not use the letter “e” as a vowel. Yahwah is the trans-literal into English. Yahuah is pronounced the same as Yahwah, and it is the same name.

 

[CherubRam]

Do you see God's personal name being used in your bible? Hebrews 2:12
He says, “I will declare your name to my brothers and sisters; in the assembly I will sing your praises.”

Mark 12:28. One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus (Yahshua) had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"
29"The most important one," answered Jesus (Yahshua), "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, [the Lord / Yahwah] our [God / Elohiym], [the Lord / Yahwah] is [one (only).

Yahwah's name was in the original New Testament scriptures

After killing Hebrew Christians, the Jews would take the New testament scripture written in Hebrew, and carefully cut the name of God out. Then they would place the divine name in a safe place to keep. Following that, they then would burn the remainder of the scrolls in a fire. Rabbi Yose who lived during the second century AD states that, "One cuts out the reference to the Divine Name which are in them [the New Testament writings] and stores them away, and the rest burns." One of his characteristic sayings is, "He who proclaimed the coming of the Messiah,[John] and he who hated scholars [Yahshua] and his disciples; and that false prophet and those slanderers, will have no part in the future world." According to Wilhelm Bacher this was directed against the Hebrew Christians.

And so it is an established fact then, that the disciples of Christ did in fact write the Holy Name of God into the original New Testament.

 

[Der Alte]

Do you see God's personal name being used in your bible? Hebrews 2:12
He says, “I will declare your name to my brothers and sisters; in the assembly I will sing your praises.”

Mark 12:28. One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus (Yahshua) had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"
29"The most important one," answered Jesus (Yahshua), "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, [the Lord / Yahwah] our [God / Elohiym], [the Lord / Yahwah] is [one (only).

Yahwah's name was in the original New Testament scriptures [Wrong! DA]

After killing Hebrew Christians, the Jews would take the New testament scripture written in Hebrew, and carefully cut the name of God out. Then they would place the divine name in a safe place to keep. Following that, they then would burn the remainder of the scrolls in a fire. Rabbi Yose who lived during the second century AD states that, "One cuts out the reference to the Divine Name which are in them [the New Testament writings] and stores them away, and the rest burns." One of his characteristic sayings is, "He who proclaimed the coming of the Messiah,[John] and he who hated scholars [Yahshua] and his disciples; and that false prophet and those slanderers, will have no part in the future world." According to Wilhelm Bacher this was directed against the Hebrew Christians. [Nonsense! Antisemitic diatribe with no, zero, none, evidence! DA]

And so it is an established fact then, that the disciples of Christ did in fact write the Holy Name of God into the original New Testament.

You saying something is an established fact does not make it do. I keep asking for evidence you just keep making unsupported assertions.

Here is what the Talmud actually says about the divine name in Christian writings.

Babylonian Talmud: Tractate Shabbath Folio 116a-

Come and hear: The blank spaces15 and the Books of the Minim16 may not be saved from a fire, but they must be burnt in their place, they and the Divine Names occurring in them.

Babylonian Talmud: Shabbath 116​

My previous rebuttal of your Yahwah argument which you ignored. I'm still waiting for evidence.

Phi 2:6 In God's own form existed he, And shared with God equality, Deemed nothing needed grasping.​

You used the words El and Elohim several times in this post. Elohim occurs 2334 times in the OT and El occurs 307 times.

Somebody has given you false information. How could Elohim or El be pronounced as they are if there was no "letter “e” as a vowel?" Please provide your source for this information? Here is information from the Jewish Encyclopedia showing the correct pronunciation of יהוה/YHWH. It is not Yahuah or Yahwah!

Jewish Encyclopedia-Names of God
In appearance, Yhwh (יהוה) is the third person singular imperfect "kal" of the verb ( הוה ("to be"), meaning, therefore, "He is," or "He will be," or, perhaps, "He lives," the root idea of the word being,probably, "to blow," "to breathe," and hence, "to live." With this explanation agrees the meaning of the name given in Ex. iii. 14, where God is represented as speaking, and hence as using the first person—"I am" (אהיה, from ( היה, the later equivalent of the archaic stem ( הוה). The meaning would, therefore, be "He who is self-existing, self-sufficient," or, more concretely, "He who lives," the abstract conception of pure existence being foreign to Hebrew thought. There is no doubt that the idea of life was intimately connected with the name Yhwh from early times. He is the living God, as contrasted with the lifeless gods of the heathen, and He is the source and author of life (comp. I Kings xviii.; Isa. xli. 26-29, xliv. 6-20; Jer. x. 10, 14; Gen. ii. 7; etc.). So familiar is this conception of God to the Hebrew mind that it appears in the common formula of an oath, "hai Yhwh" (= "as Yhwh lives"; Ruth iii. 13; I Sam. xiv. 45; etc.).

If the explanation of the form above given be the true one, the original pronunciation must have been Yahweh ((יהוה) or Yahaweh (יהוה). From this the contracted form Jah or Yah (יה ) is most readily explained, and also the forms Jeho or Yeho (יהו ), and Jo or Yo (יו contracted from יהו , which the word assumes in combination in the first part of compound proper names, and Yahu or Yah (יהו ) in the second part of such names. The fact may also be mentioned that in Samaritan poetry יהוה rimes with words similar in ending to Yahweh, and Theodoret ("Quæst. 15 in Exodum") states that the Samaritans pronounced the name Iαβέ. Epiphanius ascribes the same pronunciation to an early Christian sect. Clement of Alexandria, still more exactly, pronounces 'Iαουέ or 'Iαουαί, and Origen, 'Iα. Aquila wrote the name in archaic Hebrew letters. In the Jewish-Egyptian magic-papyri it appears as Ιαωουηε. At least as early as the third century B.C. the name seems to have been regarded by the Jews as a "nomen ineffabile," on the basis of a somewhat extreme interpretation of Ex. xx. 7 and Lev. xxiv. 11 (see Philo, "De Vita Mosis," iii. 519, 529). Written only in consonants, the true pronunciation was forgotten by them. The Septuagint, and after it the New Testament, invariably render κύριος ("the Lord").

Jewish Encyclopedia online​

 

[Gibs]

I've been seen but one attempt,

Ps 68:4 Sing unto God, sing praises to his name: extol him that rideth upon the heavens by his name JAH, and rejoice before him.

The abbreviated form but I don't go with the J in Jah.

 

[CherubRam]

You saying something is an established fact does not make it do. I keep asking for evidence you just keep making unsupported assertions.

Here is what the Talmud actually says about the divine name in Christian writings.

Babylonian Talmud: Tractate Shabbath Folio 116a-

Come and hear: The blank spaces15 and the Books of the Minim16 may not be saved from a fire, but they must be burnt in their place, they and the Divine Names occurring in them.

Babylonian Talmud: Shabbath 116​

My previous rebuttal of your Yahwah argument which you ignored. I'm still waiting for evidence.

The Babylonian Talmud was written between 200 AD and 500 AD. My source about God's name dates to the first century AD.

I do not know what your problem is, but you are over looking the facts that I present. THE ANCIENT HEBREW LANGUAGE HAD NO LETTER E EQUIVALANT FOR A VOWEL.
Early Aramaic and Hebrew vowels
The early Aramaic and Hebrew vowel system is reconstructed as a o i u

Summary
The following charts summarize the most common reflexes of the Proto-Semitic vowels in the various stages of Hebrew:
Proto-Semitic: a, i, u.
Proto-Hebrew: a, o, i, u.
Secunda: a, o, i, u.
Tiberian: ɔ, o, i, u.
Babylonian: ɔ, o, i, u.
Palestinian: a, o, i, u.
Samaritan: ( a, ɒ,) u, ( e, i,) (o, u.)

Here is a good resource for you: David Steinberg's Home Page

 

[Gibs]

Who on earth would want to take the Talmud as truth among Christians.

What matters is since the proper pronunciation was lost when addressing the Father of all is to have in your heart all the Reverence you can muster. Angels even prostrate themselves at His feet!

 

[Der Alte]

The Babylonian Talmud was written between 200 AD and 500 AD. My source about God's name dates to the first century AD.

I do not know what your problem is, but you are over looking the facts that I present. THE ANCIENT HEBREW LANGUAGE HAD NO LETTER E EQUIVALANT FOR A VOWEL.
Early Aramaic and Hebrew vowels
The early Aramaic and Hebrew vowel system is reconstructed as a o i u

Summary
The following charts summarize the most common reflexes of the Proto-Semitic vowels in the various stages of Hebrew:
Proto-Semitic: a, i, u.
Proto-Hebrew: a, o, i, u.
Secunda: a, o, i, u.
Tiberian: ɔ, o, i, u.
Babylonian: ɔ, o, i, u.
Palestinian: a, o, i, u.
Samaritan: ( a, ɒ,) u, ( e, i,) (o, u.)

Here is a good resource for you: David Steinberg's Home Page

You have yet to present any evidence for anything. You just keep making the same assertions over and over. You might want to check your facts on the Talmud. I cannot find the "charts" you show above at the link you provided.

 

[CherubRam]

You have yet to present any evidence for anything. You just keep making the same assertions over and over. You might want to check your facts on the Talmud. I cannot find the "charts" you show above at the link you provided.

I will mark the sources and quotes in red for you. Let me know if that is helpful for you?

After killing Hebrew Christians, the Jews would take the New testament scripture written in Hebrew, and carefully cut the name of God out. Then they would place the divine name in a safe place to keep. Following that, they then would burn the remainder of the scrolls in a fire. Rabbi Yose who lived during the second century AD states that, "One cuts out the reference to the Divine Name which are in them [the New Testament writings] and stores them away, and the rest burns." One of his characteristic sayings is, "He who proclaimed the coming of the Messiah,[John] and he who hated scholars [Yahshua] and his disciples; and that false prophet and those slanderers, will have no part in the future world." According to Wilhelm Bacher this was directed against the Hebrew Christians.

 

[2ducklow]

The Babylonian Talmud was written between 200 AD and 500 AD. My source about God's name dates to the first century AD.

I do not know what your problem is, but you are over looking the facts that I present. THE ANCIENT HEBREW LANGUAGE HAD NO LETTER E EQUIVALANT FOR A VOWEL.
Early Aramaic and Hebrew vowels
The early Aramaic and Hebrew vowel system is reconstructed as a o i u

Summary
The following charts summarize the most common reflexes of the Proto-Semitic vowels in the various stages of Hebrew:
Proto-Semitic: a, i, u.
Proto-Hebrew: a, o, i, u.
Secunda: a, o, i, u.
Tiberian: ɔ, o, i, u.
Babylonian: ɔ, o, i, u.
Palestinian: a, o, i, u.
Samaritan: ( a, ɒ,) u, ( e, i,) (o, u.)

Here is a good resource for you: David Steinberg's Home Page

[/quote]
Review of Joshua Blau's Phonology and Morphology of Biblical Hebrew
I found where you got that information.

The following charts summarize the most common reflexes of the Proto-Semitic vowels in the various stages of Hebrew:


Proto-Semitic

Proto-Hebrew

Secunda

Tiberian

Babylonian

Palestinian

Samaritan1


*aː
*aː aː ɔ a a, ɒ
*oː oː o u

*iː
*iː iː i e, i

*uː
*uː uː u o, u4

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_Hebrew

Proto-Semitic Sounds and Their Development in the Languages









The Proto-Semitic sound system had three short vowels, a, i, u, and three corresponding long vowels, , , ; these vowels are preserved essentially unchanged in classical Arabic but have undergone numerous developments in most of the other Semitic languages, both ancient and modern.

http://www.jamshid-ibrahim.net/148.0.html




This source below disagrees with your statement that ancient Hebrew had no e sound.

Here is specifically how our Ancient Hebrew pronunciations are different -

1) The letter named BaT (MJH bet) has a B sound only, and not [bh] or [v] as well.

2) The letter named EA (MJH he) is a vowel-letter E with an [eh] sound and never an H sound (otherwise there would be two H sounds (he and het) in the alphabet and that is inefficient). Also any type of H sound whether it be throaty or not is formed by the closing of the back of the throat. The vocal tract is divided. The letter named CHaTS (MJH het) means "divide" so there would be no point having two letters with the same division of the throat, when only one of these letters (CHaTS) means "divide".

http://yehweh.org/profiles/blogs/ancient-hebrew-alphabet-chart

Apparently you mistook the source you quoted to mean that there was no e sound in ancient Hebrew when really the source was just listing the short vowels and not the long vowels of which the e sound was one.

plus there's the added problem of proto-semetic language being hypothetical.

Proto-Semitic is the hypothetical proto-language of the Semitic languages

http://www.spiritus-temporis.com/proto-semitic-language/references.html

So since proto-semetic language is hypothetical, one can't put to much significance to it.

 

[Der Alte]

I will mark the sources and quotes in red for you. Let me know if that is helpful for you?

After killing Hebrew Christians, the Jews would take the New testament scripture written in Hebrew, and carefully cut the name of God out. Then they would place the divine name in a safe place to keep. Following that, they then would burn the remainder of the scrolls in a fire. Rabbi Yose who lived during the second century AD states that, "One cuts out the reference to the Divine Name which are in them [the New Testament writings] and stores them away, and the rest burns." One of his characteristic sayings is, "He who proclaimed the coming of the Messiah,[John] and he who hated scholars [Yahshua] and his disciples; and that false prophet and those slanderers, will have no part in the future world." According to Wilhelm Bacher this was directed against the Hebrew Christians.

Okay! Where might I find the primary source written by "Rabbi Yose" and "Wilhelm Bacher?" Here is my previous post again, note the primary source, the Talmud, and the link.

You saying something is an established fact does not make it do. I keep asking for evidence you just keep making unsupported assertions.

Here is what the Talmud actually says about the divine name in Christian writings.

Babylonian Talmud: Tractate Shabbath Folio 116a-

Come and hear: The blank spaces15 and the Books of the Minim[followers of Jesus] 16 may not be saved from a fire, but they must be burnt in their place, they and the Divine Names occurring in them.

Babylonian Talmud: Shabbath 116​

​

​

My previous rebuttal of your Yahwah argument which you ignored. I'm still waiting for evidence.