Trinitarianism: What Non-Trinitarians Believe

[CherubRam]

Okay! Where might I find the primary source written by "Rabbi Yose" and "Wilhelm Bacher?" Here is my previous post again, note the primary source, the Talmud, and the link.

It is not for me to always supply a primary source. I would presume that if a person is interested in more info, that they could do an Internet search.

 

[Jack Terrence]

It is not for me to always supply a primary source. I would presume that if a person is interested in more info, that they could do an Internet search.

It is common courtesy to supply the source.

 

[CherubRam]

E consonant, yes. E vowel, no, not until after 200 AD. The source that disagrees is an idiot.

 

[Der Alte]

It is not for me to always supply a primary source. I would presume that if a person is interested in more info, that they could do an Internet search.

Sorry I function in the real world where documentation and substantiation is virtually always required. I have been associated with legal action in Federal District courts 5th and 9th circuit. It was certainly incumbent on me to provide primary source evidence for every point I was arguing. When I was in college and grad school it was incumbent on me to provide primary source information for everything I wrote. I can just see me telling a Federal judge or a professor "It is not for me to always supply a primary source."and having my head handed to me.

 

[CherubRam]

Sorry I function in the real world where documentation and substantiation is virtually always required. I have been associated with legal action in Federal District courts 5th and 9th circuit. It was certainly incumbent on me to provide primary source evidence for every point I was arguing. When I was in college and grad school it was incumbent on me to provide primary source information for everything I wrote. I can just see me telling a Federal judge or a professor "It is not for me to always supply a primary source."and having my head handed to me.

This is not a court room, this is a Christian Forum where we are having a conversation. This thread is about Trinitarianism. If you want to discuss Gods name, then start a new thread.

 

[Gibs]

This is not a court room, this is a Christian Forum where we are having a conversation. This thread is about Trinitarianism. If you want to discuss Gods name, then start a new thread.

Not answering for Der Alter, but I know that there is but "ONE" with the proper and High and Holy Name of our God. Only He the One and Only is to be called Reverend. It therefore is a way of not seeing Trinity.

Just saying.

 

[Der Alte]

This is not a court room, this is a Christian Forum where we are having a conversation. This thread is about Trinitarianism. If you want to discuss Gods name, then start a new thread.

As I said I function in the real world. Those were only 2 examples. The real world does not function on innuendo, supposition, gossip, unsupported opinion, hearsay, etc. Another example, when I buy a part for my car or computer I check the documentation to ensure I am getting a quality, proper part. I am certainly not going to that then listen to every person who comes along making unsupported claims concerning the Christian faith. And I recommend that everyone else do the same, else they may find themselves drinking koolaid in So. America or having a barbecue in Texas.

 

[CherubRam]

As I said I function in the real world. Those were only 2 examples. The real world does not function on innuendo, supposition, gossip, unsupported opinion, hearsay, etc. Another example, when I buy a part for my car or computer I check the documentation to ensure I am getting a quality, proper part. I am certainly not going to listen to every person who comes along makeing unsupported claims concerning the Christian faith. And I recommend that everyone else do the same, else they may find themselves drinking koolaid in So. America or having a barbecue in Texas.

You say you live in the real world but yet you are unable to discern a parable. I give you names dates and quotes, but yet you say I have given no sources. What it is is that you are marching to a different drummer.

 

[2ducklow]

The Babylonian Talmud was written between 200 AD and 500 AD. My source about God's name dates to the first century AD.

I do not know what your problem is, but you are over looking the facts that I present. THE ANCIENT HEBREW LANGUAGE HAD NO LETTER E EQUIVALANT FOR A VOWEL.
Early Aramaic and Hebrew vowels
The early Aramaic and Hebrew vowel system is reconstructed as a o i u

Summary
The following charts summarize the most common reflexes of the Proto-Semitic vowels in the various stages of Hebrew:
Proto-Semitic: a, i, u.
Proto-Hebrew: a, o, i, u.
Secunda: a, o, i, u.
Tiberian: ɔ, o, i, u.
Babylonian: ɔ, o, i, u.
Palestinian: a, o, i, u.
Samaritan: ( a, ɒ,) u, ( e, i,) (o, u.)

Here is a good resource for you: David Steinberg's Home Page

well I don't know what they mean by reflexes of vowels. but, according to the source you listed irreducible long vowels have the e sound. It is the anceps vowels that do not have the e sound..

2. Linguistic Terms and Symbols[24]

Anceps vowels /ã/, /ĩ/, /ũ/

......................................

I. Irreducible Historically Long Vowels i.e. vowels that seem to have been long as far back as we can reconstruct even if their quality has changed -

/ῑ/, /ē/ ([ɛ̄] or [ẹ̄][29]), /ā/[30], /ō/[31], /ū/.

N.b. Such vowels can be gained by analogy as in the case of the 1cs. independent pronoun
II. Irreducible Long Vowels which lengthened due to contraction and assimilation -

/î/, /ê/ ([ɛ̂] or [ệ]), /â/, /ô/, /û/.

Reconstructing the Pronunciation of Biblical Hebrew TERMS, ABBREVIATIONS, AND LINGUISTIC SYMBOLS

this seems like a lot of tech. mumbo jumbo to me and a lot of it to go through just to decide if it's Yahweh or Yahwah.

 

[Der Alte]

You say you live in the real world but yet you are unable to discern a parable. I give you names dates and quotes, but yet you say I have given no sources. What it is is that you are marching to a different drummer.

You have yet to identify a single primary source which supports anything you have said. "Names,""dates" and "quotes" are worthless without a proper citation. I can't count the number of times someone claimed to quote something and when investigated the quote did not exist. I can discern a parable but the problem is every group in the alphabet, out there, LDS, JW, UPCI, OP, SDA, WWCG, MJ, etc. claims that this, that or the other passage is a parable, they are all different but the "parables" they claim just happen to support their particular group's false teaching. And as I said they are all different. So which of the myriad of parables, the various groups claim, should I believe. I think I will go with the truth, if the plain sense makes good sense then it is nonsense to look for any other sense.

 

[CherubRam]

well I don't know what they mean by reflexes of vowels. but, according to the source you listed irreducible long vowels have the e sound. It is the anceps vowels that do not have the e sound..
Reconstructing the Pronunciation of Biblical Hebrew TERMS, ABBREVIATIONS, AND LINGUISTIC SYMBOLS

this seems like a lot of tech. mumbo jumbo to me and a lot of it to go through just to decide if it's Yahweh or Yahwah.

E was introduced into Hebrew as a vowel after 200 AD. Look up HaYah and HaWah. OLD HEBREW / ANCIENT HEBREW / ARAMAIC

 

[Der Alte]

E was introduced into Hebrew as a vowel after 200 AD. Look up HaYah and HaWah. OLD HEBREW / ANCIENT HEBREW / ARAMAIC

If this is correct then Jesus' name in Hebrew would have been Yahshuah. So I wonder why the Jews who translated the LXX about 250 BC transliterated it as Iesous instead of Iahsous since according to you they did not have the vowel "E" until 450 years later.

 

[2ducklow]

E was introduced into Hebrew as a vowel after 200 AD. Look up HaYah and HaWah. OLD HEBREW / ANCIENT HEBREW / ARAMAIC

HaYah


Definition
to be, become, come to pass, exist, happen, fall out (Qal) ----- 1a

to happen, fall out, occur, take place, come about, come to pass 1a

Hayah - Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon - New American Standard
I don't see how looking up hayah proves that Ancient Hebrew had no e sound. I tried looking up hayah old Hebrew but got no hits. I only got hits on hayah.

look up ANCIENT HEBREW HAD AN E SOUND.

 

[CherubRam]

Hayah - Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon - New American Standard
I don't see how looking up hayah proves that Ancient Hebrew had no e sound. I tried looking up hayah old Hebrew but got no hits. I only got hits on hayah.

look up ANCIENT HEBREW HAD AN E SOUND.

Old Aramaic and Hebrew did not. I'm tired now. Later I will photo copy my NIV Exhaustive Concordance so you can see what I'm talking about.

 

[CherubRam]

If this is correct then Jesus' name in Hebrew would have been Yahshuah. So I wonder why the Jews who translated the LXX about 250 BC transliterated it as Iesous instead of Iahsous since according to you they did not have the vowel "E" until 450 years later.

Iesous is Greek, it is not Hebrew.

 

[CherubRam]

I think where we are getting all tangled up is in the difference between spelling and pronouncing.

From Wikipedia: In the spelling of Hebrew and some other Semitic languages, matres lectionis (/ˈmeɪtriːz lɛktiˈoʊnɨs/; from Latin "mothers of reading", singular form: mater lectionis, Hebrew: אֵם קְרִיאָה mother of reading), refers to the use of certain consonants to indicate a vowel. The letters that do this in Hebrew are א aleph, ה he, ו waw (or vav) and י yod (or yud). The yod and waw in particular are more often vowels than they are consonants. In Arabic, the matres lectionis (though they are much less often referred to thus) are alif ا, waw و, and ya' ي.

 

[CherubRam]

In the pre-Exilic period, the following three consonants, ה hey, ן waw, י yod, were used at the end of a word to indicate final vowels. Beginning in the post-Exilic period, waw and yod were also used as vowel indicators within a word.

The English name Joshua is from the Hebrew language "(Yehoshua / Yahshua)", meaning, Yah’s Helper. As an interpretation it could also mean, God’s Salvation.

Note: It is the opinion of some scholars that too many vowels are added to the Hebrew language.

Note: Investigations of Qumranic and Mishnaic Hebrew (ca. 50 B.C.E.-200 C.E.) indicate that post biblical Hebrew phonology was different than that of biblical Hebrew.

 

[CherubRam]

The word "Jehovah" comes from the fact that ancient Jewish texts used to put the vowels of the Name "Adonai" (the usual substitute for YHWH) with the consonants of YHWH to remind people not to pronounce YHWH as written. A sixteenth century German Christian scribe, while transliterating the Bible into Latin for the Pope, wrote the Name out as it appeared in his texts, with the consonants of YHWH and the vowels of Adonai, and came up with the word JeHoVah. In Hebrew the word Jahovah can be interpretated as "God's destructive evil desires."
The editors of the Brown-Driver-Briggs Lexicon write that the pronunciation "Jehovah" was unknown until 1520 when it was introduced by Galatinus; Pietro Colonna Galatino (1460–1530), also known as Petrus Galatinus.
Notice the word Jehovah ends in "ah."

 

[CherubRam]

Let me know when you are done looking at the pics so I can delete them.

 

[Gibs]

I have found the Divine name is represented by 4 Hebrew characters YHWH and the a sound is used between the Y and H and between the W and H little or no sound of A or e, pronounced as YAHWH.

it was so feared to pronounce His Name that few did and the proper pronunciation was lost. It is with utmost Reverence that we can muster that we do.

The fear that we hold should be on this order, from De 8:6 Therefore thou shalt keep the commandments of the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to fear him.

3372. yare'
ary yare' yaw-ray'
a primitive root; to fear; morally, to revere; caus. to frighten:--affright, be (make) afraid, dread(-ful), (put in) fear(-ful, -fully, -ing), (be had in) reverence(-end), X see, terrible (act, -ness, thing).

Angels prostrate themselves at His feet so they too show in great awe and fear show ALL Reverence.