Tricks New Atheists and Theists Play (Part 1)

Can you prove a negative claim?

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Uber Genius

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My goals here are modest: to get atheist, agnostics, and theists to understand the difference between good arguments and bad ones. To engage the premises and not the arguers, and to become deeper in their knowledge of this important question no matter how compelling or dubious they find those premises and various arguments.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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And I don't rest my belief in God on any of the arguments I give here. It is just that the type of a posteriori evidence for God doesn't translate well, at least not over the internet. Friends who were atheist and engaged me over time get to experience those evidences but not until they have a good knowledge of who I am and why they are more likely true than made up.

Oh, I know you don't rest your belief in simple terms. I came to understand that about you from some of our past chats. And I can appreciate the nature of the engagement you had with your atheist friends and the testimonies and/or other personal info you shared with them during those times. These do 'mean' something, even if they might not necessarily have been relevant or meaningful to each person you shared them with. At the end of the day, we both know that the "meta" side of these things, that is--these propositions of Christian truth, are finally controlled by the Lord, even if and when they're handled initially by brilliant minds. :cool:
 
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2PhiloVoid

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This goes back to how one conceives of epistemology.

I'm obviously a moderate foundationalist. But if one is a constructivist. They might deny such justification of knowledge suggesting that history, culture, society impinge heavily to make strong claims.

Even coherentists would deny that our knowledge goes from a few a priori immediate beliefs, to inferred more complex ones, and instead suggest that our knowledge operates like a web. So the assumptions one makes epistemically will create the a set of propositions one allows to count as evidence or reasons for any knowledge claim.

I guess it's a good thing that I'm not a constructivist, then. It does sound kind of epistemologically chintzy and chancy, and it can be at times. So, while I have toyed with the idea in the past, I've never been able to escape my sense of realism. Drats!!!!
 
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2PhiloVoid

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My goals here are modest: to get atheist, agnostics, and theists to understand the difference between good arguments and bad ones. To engage the premises and not the arguers, and to become deeper in their knowledge of this important question no matter how compelling or dubious they find those premises and various arguments.

...well, you can lead a horse to water, but … ! ^_^
 
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2PhiloVoid

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My goals here are modest: to get atheist, agnostics, and theists to understand the difference between good arguments and bad ones. To engage the premises and not the arguers, and to become deeper in their knowledge of this important question no matter how compelling or dubious they find those premises and various arguments.

...well, you can lead a horse to water, but … ! ^_^

The OP paper is an interesting one, though, and thoughtful.
 
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gaara4158

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Of course you can prove a negative, as long as you can prove a positive that is mutually exclusive to said negative.

Example:
If scorpions exist, then God does not exist.
Scorpions exist.
Therefore, God does not exist.

You might not accept the premises, but that's how a negative proof would look.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Of course you can prove a negative, as long as you can prove a positive that is mutually exclusive to said negative.

Example:
If scorpions exist, then God does not exist.
Scorpions exist.
Therefore, God does not exist.

You might not accept the premises, but that's how a negative proof would look.

…I'm just waiting for this negative proof to rock us like a hurricane. But, so far, there's not even a breeze. What gives? ^_^
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Is that what's going on? I'm getting old? I was wondering about all that. I thought the mirror was just playing tricks on me. :doh:
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Good point. We have no idea what they're putting into space these days, and with rockets named 'Dragon' and all...………………………….teapots around Jupiter might be possible, too. What better way to spend taxpayer's money could there be than that?!
 
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Halbhh

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According to modus tollens, a negative can easily be proven:

1. If A then B.
2. Not B.
3. Therefore not A.

If a person wants to prove "not A", all they have to do is establish a necessary relationship between B and A and then demonstrate "not B". Here would be an example in the form of a theological argument:

1. If atheism is true then moral norms do not exist.
2. Moral norms do exist.
3. Therefore atheism is not true.

And that gets us closer to the essential thing people meant (regardless of how poorly they state it) -- that a person hasn't personally been able to observe or see easy proof of something does not prove it does not exist.

I haven't seen nor expect to ever see or be able to pin down what in physics is called 'dark matter' (an unknown stuff thought to be some kind of matter making up most of the matter in the Universe) -- yet I know better than to conclude from the fact it cannot be observed even after much attempts to observe it (it can only be inferred, and maps of it are actually computer calculations of where it would be if a type of matter) that therefore it doesn't exist. I know better. I know I'd better not try to think it is proven it does not exist. It's a kind of common sense. Common sense at times fails. But we use it often becuase it very often works.

It's good sense (or common sense) to be aware that if you can never find something, and no one else could pin it down either, not to unwisely conclude it does not exist.

It is merely not-yet-found. Nothing more.

An extra wrinkle for the agnostic or atheist in relation with God -- some other people (like me) say they have found Him, and while agnostics are in a defensible temporary logical position, many atheists on the other hand who assert with certainty He doesn't exist are trying to assert if they cannot find something or see simple verifiable evidence of it then they can conclude it positively does not exist, which is just bad thinking.



"YOU CAN'T PROVE A NEGATIVE!"

The statement above is uttered repeatedly by theists and atheists alike. Professors make the above statement as frequently as high-school students. Is it true?

Here is an article that will help people more accurately understand why we want to consider the claim more carefully before we mindlessly repeat it.

https://departments.bloomu.edu/philosophy/pages/content/hales/articlepdf/proveanegative.pdf

After engaging the argument weigh-in on the claims and if you were able to change your position or at least soften entrenched beliefs on the matter.
 
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ViaCrucis

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This could theoretically be proven if we were able to gain an adequately exhaustive knowledge of Jupiter's orbit. It could also be logically inferred:

1. If a teapot is orbiting Jupiter then it came from planet earth.

Assertion. How do you know the teapot orbiting Jupiter came from earth?

2. No teapot has ever been sent from planet earth to Jupiter.

Assertion. How do you know no teapot has ever been sent from earth to Jupiter?

3. Therefore a teapot is not orbiting Jupiter.

Which premise would you challenge?

Conclusion does not follow since it is based on unproven, unevidenced assertions.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Erik Nelson

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Please prove that there is no teapot orbiting Jupiter.
insightful! Yet not to the point

if there was a teapot orbiting Jupiter, it would reflect light and be visible...

but even Hubble is not sensitive enough to notice

in real life, Jupiter has rings, and there really are teapot sized chunks of rock and ice whirling around the world... But we still can't yet detect any from earth

we can't yet PROVE beyond a shadow of a doubt !B = no teapot
 
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Erik Nelson

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And that gets us closer to the essential thing people meant (regardless of how poorly they state it) -- that a person hasn't personally been able to observe or see easy proof of something does not prove it does not exist.

I haven't seen nor expect to ever see or be able to pin down what in physics is called 'dark matter' (an unknown stuff thought to be some kind of matter making up most of the matter in the Universe) -- yet I know better than to conclude from the fact it cannot be observed even after much attempts to observe it (it can only be inferred, and maps of it are actually computer calculations of where it would be if a type of matter) that therefore it doesn't exist. I know better. I know I'd better not try to think it is proven it does not exist. It's a kind of common sense. Common sense at times fails. But we use it often becuase it very often works.

It's good sense (or common sense) to be aware that if you can never find something, and no one else could pin it down either, not to unwisely conclude it does not exist.

It is merely not-yet-found. Nothing more.

An extra wrinkle for the agnostic or atheist in relation with God -- some other people (like me) say they have found Him, and while agnostics are in a defensible temporary logical position, many atheists on the other hand who assert with certainty He doesn't exist are trying to assert if they cannot find something or see simple verifiable evidence of it then they can conclude it positively does not exist, which is just bad thinking.
with all due respect to your atheist discussion partners...

the Bible has NEVER claimed miracles on earth, or miraculous communications from God in heaven to chosen humans on earth...

are frequent, commonplace, every day events a penny apiece

no -- major miracles and miraculous prophesying only occur say once per century on overall average

even in OT Israel times, the average population was a few MILLION... And every other generation there was ONE prophet

the Biblically REPORTED chances of being chosen by God in heaven to receive His communications is like winning the lottery jackpot

your atheist discussion partners do NOT generalize to all humanity, everywhere and when

and they do NOT analogize to Moses, Elijah and Elisha

so they can't say, "God in heaven never contacted me... So He couldn't have contacted Moses either"

your atheist discussion partners DO analogize directly to the millions of nameless Israelites in the far background of the biblical narrative...

many of whom didn't believe, even when they saw Elijah call down fire from heaven, and get whisked heavenward by a fiery tornado

the NT mentions this

Luke 16:29-31, “Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, IF THEY HEAR NOT MOSES AND THE PROPHETS, NEITHER WILL THEY BE PERSUADED, THOUGH ONE ROSE FROM THE DEAD.”

Somehow, some people are prone to dismissing anything they don't see themselves... Their forebears witnessed Moses and the prophets, and didn't remain convinced... And down through time apples have never fallen far from trees
 
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Nithavela

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with all due respect to your atheist discussion partners...

the Bible has NEVER claimed miracles on earth, or miraculous communications from God in heaven to chosen humans on earth...

are frequent, commonplace, every day events a penny apiece

no -- major miracles and miraculous prophesying only occur say once per century on overall average

even in OT Israel times, the average population was a few MILLION... And every other generation there was ONE prophet

the Biblically REPORTED chances of being chosen by God in heaven to receive His communications is like winning the lottery jackpot

your atheist discussion partners do NOT generalize to all humanity, everywhere and when

and they do NOT analogize to Moses, Elijah and Elisha

so they can't say, "God in heaven never contacted me... So He couldn't have contacted Moses either"

your atheist discussion partners DO analogize directly to the millions of nameless Israelites in the far background of the biblical narrative...

many of whom didn't believe, even when they saw Elijah call down fire from heaven, and get whisked heavenward by a fiery tornado

the NT mentions this

Luke 16:29-31, “Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, IF THEY HEAR NOT MOSES AND THE PROPHETS, NEITHER WILL THEY BE PERSUADED, THOUGH ONE ROSE FROM THE DEAD.”

Somehow, some people are prone to dismissing anything they don't see themselves... Their forebears witnessed Moses and the prophets, and didn't remain convinced... And down through time apples have never fallen far from trees
I don't know, the catholic church and the orthodox church have miracles that work every year. And whenever someone gets saved by modern medicine or a baby is born, some people claim a miracle, too.
 
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durangodawood

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...But luckily we can approach the premises by way of "what evidence do we have that there is a teapot in space?"

So the response because we don't have any evidence doesn't mean it isn't there just commits the fallacy of appeal to ignorance....
That depends on how hard we've looked for the teapot.
 
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Halbhh

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many of whom didn't believe, even when they saw Elijah call down fire from heaven, and get whisked heavenward by a fiery tornado
This is such a good point. I was truly surprised when our bible study group read Numbers , during which time I decided I needed to freshly read Exodus, and the repeated situation with Israel that big miracles would happen, the big, dramatic, impossible seeming kind, right in front of their eyes, the column of fire, the parting of the sea, the plauges, the water from the rock. Big stuff. Yet, in spite of the big stuff right in front of their eyes, many would not believe fully. It was just...surprising to see that. How much does it take for someone to believe that is cautious even? For me, it was quite a few things (but not so large as these!), and together like perhaps a dozen was enough to know then there is no longer any doubt. But these people had much more drastically dramatic and huge miracles right in front of them, with all their friends witnessing too, and still many had less than full faith, and many just seemed to outright not believe.

How?

It's kinda...really pronounced, or just...hard for me to imagine. I mean after 5 or more huge miracles, how could any human being not believe? Yet, indeed many did not really believe, even though the miracles were going straight through Moses, and other signs given straight through Moses, so that...well, how could anyone imagine Moses wasn't getting the true and real words from God, or that when the 12 spies went across to see the promised land, that 10 thought God couldn't handle Canaanite cities full of idol worshipers (who did great evils Deu 12:31), because once you see so many miracles already, then wouldn't you believe the old story about Sodom being destroyed?

Yet...even with Christ Himself in person right in front of the eyes of His own followers, doing signs and miracles, and them following Him up close, personally with Him, even then:

11 The Pharisees came and began to question Jesus. To test him, they asked him for a sign from heaven. 12 He sighed deeply and said, “Why does this generation ask for a sign? Truly I tell you, no sign will be given to it.” 13 Then he left them, got back into the boat and crossed to the other side.

14 The disciples had forgotten to bring bread, except for one loaf they had with them in the boat. 15 “Be careful,” Jesus warned them. “Watch out for the yeast of the Pharisees and that of Herod.”

16 They discussed this with one another and said, “It is because we have no bread.”

17 Aware of their discussion, Jesus asked them: “Why are you talking about having no bread? Do you still not see or understand? Are your hearts hardened? 18 Do you have eyes but fail to see, and ears but fail to hear? And don’t you remember? 19 When I broke the five loaves for the five thousand, how many basketfuls of pieces did you pick up?”

“Twelve,” they replied.

20 “And when I broke the seven loaves for the four thousand, how many basketfuls of pieces did you pick up?”

They answered, “Seven.”

21 He said to them, “Do you still not understand?”

Mark 8 NIV

And look they are believers, mostly. How much does it take until someone believes fully?

God is so merciful, because even with only a small faith, for a moment of sincere prayer, done in real humility, He is willing to rescue those who are so prodigal as I was.

But the thing that stands out is that miracles done right in front of someone's eyes even won't necessarily lead to believe.

So, I'm thinking it's not 'proof' many need (though I did, and some like Thomas needed more, as did I)...but instead it's solely about the hardness of hearts.
 
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Uber Genius

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That depends on how hard we've looked for the teapot.
So here we are getting at the dos and don'ts of claims and evidence whether they be in philosophy or a court room.

There is a burden to prove a claim.

Theists have often made the point "There is no way to prove atheism because you can't prove a negative."

The OP Paper and several posters have shown why that is false.

Secondly, atheist have tried to give analogies that suggested that theistic claims are unfalsifiable, and secondly that theists rather that atheists always have the burden of proof.

Both turn out to be false. The first point (made by Russell and later Sagan) turned out to be false analogies. The latter point (also true of Russell and most of the New Atheists, most notably Peter Boghossian) is demonstrably false both in philosophy or the courts.

Having dispensed with this false axiom, we are now free to go discuss how we should evaluate claims such as: God exists or God does not exist.
 
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