Tribulation physics

[AV1611VET]

Ouch, AV might want to put some cold water on that burn.

AV knows that's too weak of an argument.

The Bible doesn't say "rapture" ... yet the Rapture is a major doctrine.

The Bible doesn't say "Trinity" ... yet the Trinity is a major doctrine.

 

[Tiberius]

AV knows that's too weak of an argument.

The Bible doesn't say "rapture" ... yet the Rapture is a major doctrine.

The Bible doesn't say "Trinity" ... yet the Trinity is a major doctrine.

So, I gotta ask...

Where do they come from?

 

[AV1611VET]

So, I gotta ask...

Where do they come from?

They are words that are coined to help facilitate a conversation.

Instead of saying "the snatching away" or "the harpazo" (or whatever it's called), its much easier to just say "the rapture."

Same for the Trinity.

Instead of saying "the Godhead" or the "triune Godhead", it's much easier to just say "the Trinity."

 

[TLK Valentine]

AV knows that's too weak of an argument.

The Bible doesn't say "rapture" ... yet the Rapture is a major doctrine.

The Bible doesn't say "Trinity" ... yet the Trinity is a major doctrine.

So Christians have had no difficulty adding to the Bible in order to smooth out troubling issues in the name of personal convenience.

When in doubt -- concoct a doctrine.

(Hmmm -- concoctrine? Perhaps I should copyright that)

 

[AV1611VET]

So Christians have had no difficulty adding to the Bible in order to smooth out troubling issues in the name of personal convenience.

When in doubt -- concoct a doctrine.

(Hmmm -- concoctrine? Perhaps I should copyright that)

What doctrine was concocted?

 

[TLK Valentine]

What doctrine was concocted?

Age of accountability, of course...

 

[AV1611VET]

Age of accountability, of course...

Well ... for the record ... thanks to the age of accountability, children who are aborted go directly to Heaven; and the chances of a mentally-ill person, or a remote spear chucker, or someone raised in another religion are better than an [unregenerate] Internet scientist's.

Of course, you can deny it, then stand around and ask others what happens to babies that die? or whine how mean God is.

But we realize God doesn't agree with you; and 1.5 million babies a year might one day testify against you.

 

[dad]

So how do they get saved, dad?

Good upbringing.

 

[Tiberius]

Good upbringing.

What nonsense is this?

I asked you if stillborn babies are sent to hell because they never got a chance to be saved.

You said that they were NOT sent to Hell.

I then asked how a stillborn baby gets saved.

And you tell me that a STILLBORN baby is saved through good upbringing.

Really?

Who in their right mind would try to raise a DEAD baby?

 

[Tiberius]

You might want to learn what the age of accountability is.

The age of accountability varies according to the person's variables.

We all have an age of accountability.

If I find a native walking along the banks of some remote river, who has never heard of Jesus, he will someday reach that age of accountability and have to account for it ... if he hasn't already.

And what happens when he says to God, "Well, how could you expect me to believe in you when I'd never even heard of you?"

Does God say, "Well you should have believed in me anyway!" and send the poor fellow to Hell, or does God say, "Well, I can't expect you to believe in me if you were unaware of me," and then let the guy in?

They are words that are coined to help facilitate a conversation.

Instead of saying "the snatching away" or "the harpazo" (or whatever it's called), its much easier to just say "the rapture."

Same for the Trinity.

Instead of saying "the Godhead" or the "triune Godhead", it's much easier to just say "the Trinity."

So when you say, "The Bible doesn't say "rapture" ... yet the Rapture is a major doctrine ... The Bible doesn't say "Trinity" ... yet the Trinity is a major doctrine", you really mean that while that exact phrasing doesn't appear in the Bible, the IDEAS behind them do appear in the Bible.

Could you please show me which passages talk about these concepts?

Well ... for the record ... thanks to the age of accountability, children who are aborted go directly to Heaven;

So then why do so many Christians have a problem with abortion? You are GUARANTEEING that the baby is going to heaven! Why let it be born where it runs the risk of becoming a hell-bound atheist?

and the chances of ... a remote spear chucker, or someone raised in another religion are better than an [unregenerate] Internet scientist's.

So aren't the missionaries who go to bring God to those "remote spear-chuckers" doing those spear chuckers a disservice? While the spear chuckers remain ignorant of God, their entry to Heaven is GUARANTEED! But as soon as the missionary tells them about Jesus, the spear chucker has the ability to reject the missionary's claims and thus risks eternal damnation in hell!

So isn't it better to leave the natives in their blissful ignorance and be happy that their ignorance guarantees them entry to Heaven? Why take the risk of sending them to hell?

Of course, you can deny it, then stand around and ask others what happens to babies that die? or whine how mean God is.

I'm not going to deny it. I'm just going to point out that the extension of this logic leads you to conclude that abortion is good (because it sends babies to Heaven before they get a chance to reject God) and missionary work is bad (because it gives people the option to reject God and thus go to hell).

 

[TLK Valentine]

Well ... for the record ... thanks to the age of accountability,

For the record, what age of accountability?

children who are aborted go directly to Heaven; and the chances of a mentally-ill person, or a remote spear chucker, or someone raised in another religion are better than an [unregenerate] Internet scientist's.

Of course, you can deny it, then stand around and ask others what happens to babies that die? or whine how mean God is.

But we realize God doesn't agree with you; and 1.5 million babies a year might one day testify against you.

And you know God doesn't agree with me how? Remember, the "age of accountability" is a man-made doctrine -- not God's.

In any case, your rationale for this particular concoctrine is that it sends babies to heaven?

The fact that it simply doesn't exist means nothing to you, does it? Just keep stuffing words in God's mouth; see how He likes the taste.

 

[TLK Valentine]

You might want to learn what the age of accountability is.

Man-made drivel being passed off as Biblical.

If I find a native walking along the banks of some remote river, who has never heard of Jesus, he will someday reach that age of accountability and have to account for it ... if he hasn't already.

Correction -- man-made drivel which flatly contradicts the Bible.

Geez, AV... I thought this stuff was your bread and butter?

 

[AV1611VET]

And what happens when he says to God, "Well, how could you expect me to believe in you when I'd never even heard of you?"

God could say...

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Does God say, "Well you should have believed in me anyway!" and send the poor fellow to Hell, or does God say, "Well, I can't expect you to believe in me if you were unaware of me," and then let the guy in?

Neither ... qv above.

I believe God grants those who have not heard of Him a special ability to ascertain God and His salvation through nature.

So when you say, "The Bible doesn't say "rapture" ... yet the Rapture is a major doctrine ... The Bible doesn't say "Trinity" ... yet the Trinity is a major doctrine", you really mean that while that exact phrasing doesn't appear in the Bible, the IDEAS behind them do appear in the Bible.

Yes.

Could you please show me which passages talk about these concepts?

Rapture ...

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Trinity ...

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Note also ...

John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

So then why do so many Christians have a problem with abortion? You are GUARANTEEING that the baby is going to heaven! Why let it be born where it runs the risk of becoming a hell-bound atheist?

Abortion is murder.

So aren't the missionaries who go to bring God to those "remote spear-chuckers" doing those spear chuckers a disservice?

No ... there's much more to doing missionary work than evangelizing.

While the spear chuckers remain ignorant of God, their entry to Heaven is GUARANTEED!

For the second time ... no, it is not.

When that guy reaches the [extended] age of accountability, he's a lost soul.

But as soon as the missionary tells them about Jesus, the spear chucker has the ability to reject the missionary's claims and thus risks eternal damnation in hell!

That is correct.

So isn't it better to leave the natives in their blissful ignorance and be happy that their ignorance guarantees them entry to Heaven?

No ... ignorance isn't a guarantee into Heaven.

Let me repeat:

It is salvation by grace through innocence ... not salvation by grace through ignorance.

Why take the risk of sending them to hell?

The risk is theirs.

I'm not going to deny it. I'm just going to point out that the extension of this logic leads you to conclude that abortion is good (because it sends babies to Heaven before they get a chance to reject God) and missionary work is bad (because it gives people the option to reject God and thus go to hell).

Don't you get tired of being corrected?

 

[AV1611VET]

The fact that it simply doesn't exist means nothing to you, does it?

QV please:

In Christian denominations that practice Believer's Baptism (baptism by voluntary decision, as opposed to baptism in early infancy), the ritual can be carried out after the age of accountability has arrived. Some traditions withhold the rite of Holy Communion from those not yet at the age of accountability, on the grounds that children do not understand what the sacrament means. In some denominations, full membership in the Church, if not bestowed at birth, often must wait until the age of accountability and frequently is granted only after a period of preparation known as catechesis. The time of innocence before one has the ability to understand truly the laws of God and that God sees one as innocent is also seen as applying to individuals who suffer from a mental disability which prevents them from ever reaching a time when they are capable of understanding the laws of God. These individuals are thus seen as existing in a perpetual state of innocence by the grace of God.

SOURCE

 

[Jamin4422]

And what happens when he says to God, "Well, how could you expect me to believe in you when I'd never even heard of you?"

Where is this person that has never heard of God? Did you ever hear the story of Jim Elliot? He was a missionary with a small airplane that would go anywhere to tell people about God: "Jim Elliot [FONT=arial, sans-serif]was an evangelical Christian who was one of five missionaries killed while participating in Operation Auca, an attempt to evangelize the Waodani people of Ecuador[/FONT]" So when people say there is someone somewhere that has not heard about God, I just do not believe them. There are missionaries that go everywhere in the world. If Gideon International hear about someone that does not have a Bible they would find a way to get a Bible to them. There really are very dedicated people that take this all very serious.

 

[Tiberius]

God could say...

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Except that isn't true, is it? Because if it was true, everyone would be Christians.

Neither ... qv above.

I believe God grants those who have not heard of Him a special ability to ascertain God and His salvation through nature.

Then why aren't all the bushmen and tribespeople Christians?

Yes.

Rapture ...

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Trinity ...

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Note also ...

John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

Okay. Thanks for that.

Now, is the idea of the age of accountability also mentioned in the Bible (even if it isn't in those exact words)?

Abortion is murder.

Irrelevant. I'm not talking about the person who does the act, I'm talking about the person who dies because of it.

No ... there's much more to doing missionary work than evangelizing.

But why evangelize at all?

For the second time ... no, it is not.

When that guy reaches the [extended] age of accountability, he's a lost soul.

I've already dealt with this.

No ... ignorance isn't a guarantee into Heaven.

Let me repeat:

It is salvation by grace through innocence ... not salvation by grace through ignorance.

Then why did you say that the native's chance of hell comes about when the missionary tells him about God and Jesus, thereby giving the native the option to reject it?

Don't you get tired of being corrected?

Maybe. Why don't you succeed at it some day, and I'll let you know?

 

[Tiberius]

Where is this person that has never heard of God? Did you ever hear the story of Jim Elliot? He was a missionary with a small airplane that would go anywhere to tell people about God: "Jim Elliot [FONT=arial, sans-serif]was an evangelical Christian who was one of five missionaries killed while participating in Operation Auca, an attempt to evangelize the Waodani people of Ecuador[/FONT]" So when people say there is someone somewhere that has not heard about God, I just do not believe them. There are missionaries that go everywhere in the world. If Gideon International hear about someone that does not have a Bible they would find a way to get a Bible to them. There really are very dedicated people that take this all very serious.

My goodness. You really think that every single person on the planet has heard the Christian idea that a fellow named Jesus died for our sins?

 

[AV1611VET]

Except that isn't true, is it? Because if it was true, everyone would be Christians.

God reveals Himself in two major ways:

1. General revelation = nature.
2. Special revelation = His word.

Just like someone can hear the Word and reject It ... like you; someone can "see the Word" in nature and reject It.

Then why aren't all the bushmen and tribespeople Christians?

See above.

Not everyone responds accordingly.

Matthew 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Okay. Thanks for that.

You're welcome ...

Now, is the idea of the age of accountability also mentioned in the Bible (even if it isn't in those exact words)?

Yes.

Matthew 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Maybe. Why don't you succeed at it some day, and I'll let you know?

Ouch.

 

[Jamin4422]

For the record, what age of accountability?

This is a Jewish tradition. At the age of 13 they are Bar Mitzvah where they accept or confirm the Jewish faith. In the Christian faith you have Baptism, Confirmation and Communion. Baptism for most christians is a dedication service. This is where the parants and the church dedicate the child to God and proclaim their intent to raise the Child as a Christian. Then when the Child is of age they are confirmed. In some churchs like the Baptist Church they do not do infant baptism. Their confirmation service is also a Baptism service. The Muslims have an age when they are required to pray and an age they are required to fast. Most all of this stuff is around the general time of puberty. Would you like to have a discussion on circumcision while we are at it?

 

[dad]

What nonsense is this?

I asked you if stillborn babies are sent to hell because they never got a chance to be saved.

You said that they were NOT sent to Hell.

I then asked how a stillborn baby gets saved.

And you tell me that a STILLBORN baby is saved through good upbringing.

Really?

Who in their right mind would try to raise a DEAD baby?

Good folks in heaven of course.