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Tribulation physics

Jamin4422

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My goodness. You really think that every single person on the planet has heard the Christian idea that a fellow named Jesus died for our sins?
Yes I do, although I would not say it that way of course. You may also be surprised at all the places in the world where you could find an ATM machine. It is sort of like the Amish. They maybe low tech when it come to their horse and buggy, but they have cell phones. So the world maybe more connected then you think.
 
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Tiberius

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Good folks in heaven of course.

So the baby gets sent to Heaven before it is raised in a way to ensure it is saved so it will be sent to Heaven? :confused: You do realise that this requires the Baby to go to Heaven BEFORE it is saved, yes?

BTW, if the people in Heaven are raising this baby, do they change dirty nappies? Wipe it's little botty after it goes poo-poo? Clean up the mess when it spits up? Get up at two in the morning for feedings? Although I suppose they have great baby formula. Or do they get some wet nurses?
 
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Tiberius

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Yes I do, although I would not say it that way of course. You may also be surprised at all the places in the world where you could find an ATM machine. It is sort of like the Amish. They maybe low tech when it come to their horse and buggy, but they have cell phones. So the world maybe more connected then you think.

Yeah. Sure. Find me an ATM in the middle of the Amazon rainforest and we'll talk.

You see, the problem with your example is that some Amish guy can get on his horse, ride into town and buy a cell phone.

I don't see untouched tribes in the middle of the jungle going to their local Dymocks to buy a Bible.
 
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dad

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So the baby gets sent to Heaven before it is raised in a way to ensure it is saved so it will be sent to Heaven? :confused: You do realise that this requires the Baby to go to Heaven BEFORE it is saved, yes?
Yes, so? Hey why not have an opinion that gives God the benefit of the doubt? Any biblical reason to assume He does otherwise?
BTW, if the people in Heaven are raising this baby, do they change dirty nappies? Wipe it's little botty after it goes poo-poo?
Why ask me? Would not things be just fine there? I wonder if good bacteria would clean up messes so fast that it would eliminate the need for diapers, and garbage etc etc??
...I suppose they have great baby formula. Or do they get some wet nurses?
Who knows? I vote the real deal....
 
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Tiberius

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Yes, so? Hey why not have an opinion that gives God the benefit of the doubt? Any biblical reason to assume He does otherwise?

Yeah. An OMNISCIENT being would have to say, "I don't know if that baby will be worthy of Heaven or not, so I'll keep them here until I know for sure."

Uh huh. Sounds plausible.

Why ask me? Would not things be just fine there? I wonder if good bacteria would clean up messes so fast that it would eliminate the need for diapers, and garbage etc etc??

While you're at it, why not just rapidly advance their age until they're twenty or something. Then you'll know instantly whether they deserve Heaven!

Who knows? I vote the real deal....

Yeah. They don't feed babies in Heaven with formula, and they don't use wet nurses either. They use the Real Deal! Is your baby hungry? Then give her the REAL DEAL! Comes in individual serve sized sachets too!

(Does what you say make any sense to you?)
 
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dad

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Yeah. An OMNISCIENT being would have to say, "I don't know if that baby will be worthy of Heaven or not, so I'll keep them here until I know for sure."
No.


Jer 1:5 - Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee....
Joh 17:24 -Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. We do know that He has a special love for children...

Mt 19:14 - But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.
While you're at it, why not just rapidly advance their age until they're twenty or something. Then you'll know instantly whether they deserve Heaven!
No one deserves Heaven. It is His gift.

Yeah. They don't feed babies in Heaven with formula, and they don't use wet nurses either. They use the Real Deal! Is your baby hungry? Then give her the REAL DEAL! Comes in individual serve sized sachets too!

Moms seem to be well equipped for that.
 
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Tiberius

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No.


Jer 1:5 - Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee....
Joh 17:24 -Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. We do know that He has a special love for children...

Mt 19:14 - But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

So how do you figure he has to give ANYONE the benefit of the doubt?

No one deserves Heaven. It is His gift.

Quibbling over semantics.

Moms seem to be well equipped for that.

Are the mothers of stillborn babies going to be breast feeding them in Heaven, are they? "Gee, sorry to hear that your baby died, Mrs Smith, now we gotta send you to heaven to raise the little tyke!"
 
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dad

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So how do you figure he has to give ANYONE the benefit of the doubt?
Not Him...us. We ought to give Him the benefit of the doubt.

Quibbling over semantics.
No, it is an important principle. Not by works which we have done but by grace are we saved.


Are the mothers of stillborn babies going to be breast feeding them in Heaven, are they?
I suspect other moms would be needed since the earth mom was not there for the moment.
"Gee, sorry to hear that your baby died, Mrs Smith, now we gotta send you to heaven to raise the little tyke!"
Consider the alternatives.
 
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Tiberius

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Not Him...us. We ought to give Him the benefit of the doubt.

So you are saying that you don't have a problem with God sending the Baby to Heaven before he decides whether he's going to send it to heaven?

And what is he sending it to Heaven for?

No, it is an important principle. Not by works which we have done but by grace are we saved.

Which doesn't apply to the discussion. We are talking about whether the babies are let into Heaven for eternity for whatever reason.

I suspect other moms would be needed since the earth mom was not there for the moment.

So we're back with the wet nurses. So given that you're proposing wet nurses now, why did you discount it just a few hours ago?

Consider the alternatives.

Such as?
 
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AV1611VET

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So the baby gets sent to Heaven before it is raised in a way to ensure it is saved so it will be sent to Heaven?
Jocularity breeds confusion, doesn't it?

The proper way to ask that question is: So the baby gets sent to Heaven before he reaches the age of accountability?
You do realise that this requires the Baby to go to Heaven BEFORE it is saved, yes?
No.

For the third time now, the baby is saved by grace through innocence.

(Who was it here asked me if I have ever corrected anyone; after I made the remark, I correct you guys more than you correct me?)
 
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AV1611VET

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Not Him...us. We ought to give Him the benefit of the doubt.
You can tell when an Internet scientist learns something new, can't you?

He makes himself look bad trying to discredit it; and in this case, it's a major doctrine.

The harder they try, the worse they look.
 
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Mr Strawberry

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Jocularity breeds confusion, doesn't it?

The proper way to ask that question is: So the baby gets sent to Heaven before he reaches the age of accountability?

What age is that?

No.

For the third time now, the baby is saved by grace through innocence.
That's a controversial amendment, especially as the Bible is at pains to point out that we are all born in sin.
(Who was it here asked me if I have ever corrected anyone; after I made the remark, I correct you guys more than you correct me?)

Is that what you are doing? I thought you were just speculating again.
 
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AV1611VET

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What age is that?
It varies according to mental condition and location (access to the Gospel).
That's a controversial amendment, especially as the Bible is at pains to point out that we are all born in sin.
That's right ... I'm a sinner saved by grace [through faith].

A stillborn is a sinner saved by grace [through innocence].
Is that what you are doing? I thought you were just speculating again.
654
 
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Mr Strawberry

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It varies according to mental condition and location (access to the Gospel).

That's right ... I'm a sinner saved by grace [through faith].

A stillborn is a sinner saved by grace [through innocence].

654

You realise of course that having accountability depending on mental condition/ability/awareness (without even bringing location into it) is completely impossible. How do you draw a dividing line between people? You can't.

I'm not going to delve further into grace through innocence, but that's a minefield as well.
 
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AV1611VET

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You realise of course that having accountability depending on mental condition/ability/awareness (without even bringing location into it) is completely impossible.
Maybe if you changed it to acquiring accountability, it would make more sense?
How do you draw a dividing line between people? You can't.
God does the accounting.
I'm not going to delve further into grace through innocence, but that's a minefield as well.
Like walking on water or resurrecting from the dead?
 
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Mr Strawberry

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Maybe if you changed it to acquiring accountability, it would make more sense?
Not really because the idea of determining whether a person has acquired understanding of the concept and its implications isn't a straight dividing line. There is a very large fuzzy grey area extending deep from within the dividing line region into the 'acquired accountability' side. And that has implications for those who have embraced Jesus but haven't done so with sufficient awareness of what they are doing, or for the wrong reasons or for misunderstood reasons, or for reasons to do with their own psychological problems or mental failings, or simply because they are going through a brief phase in adolescence or are scared out of their wits and will try anything - are they all accountable too? In fact, the whole idea of holding someone accountable for eternity for a decision they make during the brief time they are alive and gawping around in amazement at the world they find themselves born into is beyond absurd. It is fundamentally flawed. And wrong.

God does the accounting.
Is this the God of the Old Testament or the New? Is that the God who happily commits genocide on a whim or is it the God who is a bit more touchy feely and humane? Or is it a God who actually has a better understanding of the absurd portrait you've painted of Him than you do and is staring at you quizzically with His eyebrow raised? Or is it just the God you desperately want to exist so that you can delegate all responsibility for thinking to Him and don't have to worry about all that confusing stuff yourself any more?

Like walking on water or resurrecting from the dead?
No. Those are described in the Bible.
 
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