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Tribulation physics

TLK Valentine

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I do not think you care if the shroud is real or not.

In light of my previous post, this is actually true -- but not in the way you may think.

The only thing your interested in is winning the debate.

Someone once told me that whenever you point a finger, you find four more pointing back at you -- projection is a sad thing to see.

tell me, does this look familiar?
pogo.jpg


I read all I could find about the shroud around 20 years ago.

I hope you've kept up and looked at some of the more recent work done as well -- it's more interesting than I thought it would be.

I am not only convinced that it is real, but that we can learn a lot from a study of the shroud. Actually I am talking to others that maybe reading this. Because I know your not interested.

Looks to me like the jury's still out on this one. I'm glad, actually -- people will learn a lot more from the debate than they would from easy answers.

The real question is if people believe in the resurrection. If they do not believe in eternal life and if they do not believe in the resurrection, then it follows they do not accept the Shoud of Turin.

What concerns me is the people who will try to work that in reverse -- getting people to accept the Shroud of Turin because it would follow that they would then believe in eternal life and the resurrection.

Seems like a dangerous game -- looking for a scientific shortcut to salvation.
 
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TLK Valentine

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Now that is a another matter altogether. I can think of no bible story that isn't true. Those we can take a stand on.

Well, not to nit-pick, but there are Jesus' parables to think about -- those weren't being told for "truth" but for the moral lessons they contained.

Seems to me that someone who insists that the entire Bible is literally and historically true, but neglects to learn from the moral and ethical precepts therein, has missed the point big-time.
 
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dad

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Well, not to nit-pick, but there are Jesus' parables to think about -- those weren't being told for "truth" but for the moral lessons they contained.
Speculation. I vote they are true.
Seems to me that someone who insists that the entire Bible is literally and historically true, but neglects to learn from the moral and ethical precepts therein, has missed the point big-time.
True stories have lessons at least as much as fiction.
 
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Jamin4422

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Someone once told me that whenever you point a finger, you find four more pointing back at you -- projection is a sad thing to see.
Actually I don't care, which is why I am starting to ignore your posts. I debated this whole shroud thing 20 years ago and there is really no reason for me to do it again.

What concerns me is the people who will try to work that in reverse -- getting people to accept the Shroud of Turin because it would follow that they would then believe in eternal life and the resurrection.
We believe in the resurrection because the resurrection power of God is already at work in us to prepare us for the resurrection or what some people call the rapture.
 
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Tiberius

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We believe in the resurrection because the resurrection power of God is already at work in us to prepare us for the resurrection or what some people call the rapture.

But people have been predicting that for decades, haven't they?
 
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Jamin4422

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What concerns me is the people who will try to work that in reverse -- getting people to accept the Shroud of Turin because it would follow that they would then believe in eternal life and the resurrection.
Depends on what you mean by believe. Our objective is to go beyond the placebo effect. Clearly placebos are not going to raise people from the dead. IT is going to take a lot more then that. In fact it will take the power of God working in and through us. Like I said, if you do not believe that God raised Jesus from the dead, then you have no faith God will raise you from the dead. So I imagine you believe when you die that is the end of story. As if you never lived and never existed. The best we can hope for is to become plant food so we can at least keep that cycle of life going. The bacteria will break us down and recycle us into another form of life. So we can come back as a cow a pig or maybe a daisy. As Christians according to Wesley the .999999999 percent that makes us up is dedicated. Other life can use the 99.99999999 percent, because that is energy and not dedicated to our substance. Even if you throw that dedicated matter to the wind and the sea, God will still raise you up at the resurrection.
 
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Tiberius

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Depends on what you mean by believe. Our objective is to go beyond the placebo effect. Clearly placebos are not going to raise people from the dead. IT is going to take a lot more then that. In fact it will take the power of God working in and through us. Like I said, if you do not believe that God raised Jesus from the dead, then you have no faith God will raise you from the dead. So I imagine you believe when you die that is the end of story. As if you never lived and never existed. The best we can hope for is to become plant food so we can at least keep that cycle of life going. The bacteria will break us down and recycle us into another form of life. So we can come back as a cow a pig or maybe a daisy.

Except there's not a shred of evidence that anyone has ever been raised from the dead, not by God, not by anything else.
 
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Jamin4422

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But people have been predicting that for decades, haven't they?
Jesus was raised from the dead. The first fruit. There were 500 people that followed him that were raised from the dead. Although we hear very little about them. There are people who like to teach that at the time of Jesus there were pharisees and sadducees. They say the sadducees were very sad U C. Because they did not believe in the resurrection. But the pharisees did believe. The Church age is 2000 years. The Bible says the first resurrection will take place at the end of the age we are currently a part of. Some people call that a rapture. "[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep." 1Thes4:15[/FONT]
 
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Jamin4422

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Except there's not a shred of evidence that anyone has ever been raised from the dead, not by God, not by anything else.
Assuming that you do not count a defibulator as something that can raise people from the dead. The resurrection of Jesus seems to be based on the testimony of the people that knew Him at the time.
 
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Tiberius

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Assuming that you do not count a defibulator as something that can raise people from the dead. The resurrection of Jesus seems to be based on the testimony of the people that knew Him at the time.

I feel you need to learn two things. Firstly, learn what the definition of "dead" is. Secondly, learn what a defibrillator does.
 
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The Engineer

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Dating. We know when the captivity was. So not only is it impossible to not be from God because of the very day predicted for Christ and His being cut off after that, etc..but we have the astounding reality also, with the dating of the captivity, that Daniel predicted all this before the starting point (decree) was even given!
Just looked back. No, this has absolutely nothing to do with my original comment, and I don't see the relevance for this topic. How does Daniel being held in captivity change anything?

Hilarious. I guess Buzz Lightyear can assume stuff to infinity and beyond too? Nice to have someone just honestly admit this stuff for a change. Evos...look and learn.
What does this have to do with my comment? Wait, I already know the answer: NOTHING!

False. You merely assume earth state time and space apply far beyond where you can go. Nothing at all more.
I assume they won't change for no reason, just as you do.

What fable is?
Most of them, perhaps? If a wolf talks in a fable, we can easily disprove this fable by showing that wolves don't talk.


Behold the theory!

"
Moon Formed In Interplanetary Hit-and-Run Incident, Say Astronomers


Computational astronomers have simulated this kind of slow, grazing impact in detail and shown that an Earth-Moon system could indeed have formed given the theory's constraints on mass and angular moment.
But there is a problem with this model. The silicate surfaces of both the Moon and the Earth have a similar isotopic signature indicating that they must have formed from the same stuff.
But in a slow, grazing impact, most of the debris that ends up in orbit and forms into the Moon comes from the Mars-sized impactor, which is unlikely to have had the required isotopic signature. That's a major problem.
Today, Andreas Reufer at the University of Bern in Switzerland and a few pals say they've come up with an alternative hypothesis that fixes this problem. They say the Earth must have been grazed by a larger object travelling at much higher velocity.
This extra speed caused much of the impact debris to escape, hence the hit-and-run moniker. "
Moon Formed In Interplanetary Hit-and-Run Incident, Say Astronomers - Technology Review
Where does this indicate that this hypothesis is scientific consensus?

No. You don't get to overrule God,
God doesn't exist.

and dream up what is a good assumption.
I don't dream up. I reason.

You either know, or as in this case...do NOT know.
I told you, I assume. That's not knowing, but it's better than making wild guesses, as you do.

False. His word to man has lots of knowledge.
No, it doesn't.

A lot of it was written before the events happened.
Addressed this one already. That doesn't have to be the case.

Doesn't matter. Don't we all!
No, not all do.

Nice to know you don't care about having a logical basis for your beliefs.

Great. A also admit you don't know nor does science. We are close on this one..:)
A also admit? What does that even mean?

Yes, I admit when I don't know something, so do scientists. So?

If your point is that unimportant I can let it ride.
It's not unimportant, it's just that I'm not obliged to tell you what I said a few pages ago, as you can just check it for yourself.

No. Present state earth assumptions in the future or far past!
I told you several times why such assumptions are logical.

Don't worry about God's case. He can take care of Himself.
He doesn't exist.

Just focus on how you don't know.
I suggest you do the same.

I don't have to disprove a positive claim that has absolutely no evidence to support it.

In box theories.
???

I find that eternal life is a wonderful thing.
Okay.

When I see that the One who gave it to us for the asking was observed risen from the very very dead, that is more than knowledge.
He was observed. 2000 years ago. By half a dozen people. And the only source for this is a book.

When I see the over 300 prophesies He amazingly fulfilled while here, that is an amazing thing.
Which prophecies, aside from Daniel (which isn't as solid as you believe it is)?

When I see the Buzz Lightyear talk of fishbowl wise men, that is foolishness.
It isn't, and I explained to you why.

Only if you establish that the present laws must apply in the far future. You can't.
It has been established that the present laws apply to the future. There's not a single shred of evidence to suggest that they won't apply after a certain, completely arbitrary point in time.

Not rational. Fanatical would be the term.
Rational, and I told you why.

For the bible, they are shown true already. Not an issue.
How can they be shown true for the bible? How does that even work? How can you be true for the bible?

OK, but does he call it science?
No, but that's not the point. This man really, really believes in what he's preaching, but do you think that makes him credible?

Only if the fraud of the so called science models are proven.
Good thing that's not proven.

But you are showing lurkers that so called science is a belief. So it isn't all about you.
It's not a belief. It's a method.

Jesus came into Jerusalem to die soon after on a certain DAY. That day was given centuries before.
As I said, the authors of the New Testament might have been influenced by the Book of Daniel. What tells you they didn't just take a look at Daniel to see when the prophet will ostensibly die, then claimed he really did die that day?

This may sound like a conspiracy theory, but considering that there's not much proof for Jesus' existence, I'd say it's not so far off.

Dad calling The Engineer..come in..science is busted...over.
Repeating the same stuff again and again doesn't make it true.
 
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TLK Valentine

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Assuming that you do not count a defibulator as something that can raise people from the dead. The resurrection of Jesus seems to be based on the testimony of the people that knew Him at the time.

Except it's really not.

Mark wrote the story as a Passover Parable, and the others copied details from him.
 
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TLK Valentine

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Speculation. I vote they are true.

Did you learn anything from them?

True stories have lessons at least as much as fiction.

Tell me a true story about what you did yesterday. What are we to learn from it?
 
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Jamin4422

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Mark wrote the story as a Passover Parable, and the others copied details from him.
Wow, I went through all the trouble to explain that Mark was just a kid and no one copied anything from him. Then you go right on with your revisionism. I really wonder why I even make the effort. Other then maybe there is a lurker somewhere that is interested in learning the truth. Because if you do not care to abide in the truth, then why should I care what you do? If you get what you want and want what you get, why should that matter to me?
 
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HitchSlap

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Wow, I went through all the trouble to explain that Mark was just a kid and no one copied anything from him. Then you go right on with your revisionism. I really wonder why I even make the effort. Other then maybe there is a lurker somewhere that is interested in learning the truth. Because if you do not care to abide in the truth, then why should I care what you do? If you get what you want and want what you get, why should that matter to me?
Are you aware that those who study this the most, do not agree with you?
 
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dad

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Just looked back. No, this has absolutely nothing to do with my original comment, and I don't see the relevance for this topic. How does Daniel being held in captivity change anything?
It shows that the later date could not be right.
What does this have to do with my comment? Wait, I already know the answer: NOTHING!
It means Buzz Lightyear really couldn't fly to infinity and beyond and that you know not the space and state far far far away.

I assume they won't change for no reason, just as you do.
No. Do not assume and then build paper houses of models of anti bible creation concepts on that.

Most of them, perhaps? If a wolf talks in a fable, we can easily disprove this fable by showing that wolves don't talk.
So called science tells fables about a pst where we know not of. Not like we can go back and check. They do all their checking here. Now.

Where does this indicate that this hypothesis is scientific consensus?
Hey whether all the evolusionary star gazers agree on one particular fable is of no import to me. They do claim it, no one says all the whacked out wise men agree.
God doesn't exist.
Like you could know. Why claim what you don't know??? No wonder science appealed to you.
I don't dream up. I reason.
With beliefs..whoopee do.
I told you, I assume. That's not knowing, but it's better than making wild guesses, as you do.
It is worthless without knowing as science. Not only that but opposes God.
shortened....maybe look at the rest of the post later.
 
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The Engineer

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It shows that the later date could not be right.
How's that?

It means Buzz Lightyear really couldn't fly to infinity and beyond and that you know not the space and state far far far away.
Yes, I don't have hard knowledge about the far future, but that doesn't mean I can't make assumptions about it.

No. Do not assume and then build paper houses of models of anti bible creation concepts on that.
Your sentence has no subject. Just saying.

It also contains no argument.

So called science tells fables about a pst where we know not of. Not like we can go back and check. They do all their checking here. Now.
So what? So do you. You make assumptions about the past and the future, too!

A while ago, you actually told me that the reason why scientists are not supposed to make assumptions about the past and the future is that their premises are wrong, i.e. they don't take the bible as serious as you do.

Now, you tell me something completely different, the same thing that you told me in the beginning: That making assumptions about the future and the past is absurd in itself.

Can you please stop moving the goalposts?

Hey whether all the evolusionary star gazers agree on one particular fable is of no import to me. They do claim it, no one says all the whacked out wise men agree.
I thought this was about scientists claiming something is the truth without having evidence? Can you please make yourself more clear in the future, so I have an easier time understanding what you are actually saying?

Like you could know.
I can't absolutely know that God doesn't exist. I can, however, know that belief in him is unjustified, as there is no evidence for his existence.

Why claim what you don't know??? No wonder science appealed to you.
Science appeals to me because it actually helps me discover the truth. Your argument is invalid.

With beliefs..whoopee do.
I reason with beliefs? Do you mean I reason on the basis of beliefs, or that I reason against beliefs?

Again, could you please write sentences that are actually understandable.

It is worthless without knowing as science.
What is that supposed to mean?

Not only that but opposes God.
None of my concerns.

shortened....maybe look at the rest of the drippings later.
Okay.
 
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I do not think you care if the shroud is real or not. The only thing your interested in is winning the debate. I read all I could find about the shroud around 20 years ago. I am not only convinced that it is real, but that we can learn a lot from a study of the shroud. Actually I am talking to others that maybe reading this. Because I know your not interested. The real question is if people believe in the resurrection. If they do not believe in eternal life and if they do not believe in the resurrection, then it follows they do not accept the Shoud of Turin.

shroud-of-turin-imprint-reveaing-face-of-jesus.jpg


As I said Jammin, this is the key as to the power of the shroud. It exposes atheism as an emotional worldview. I know all about the church's stance on the shroud and the main reason is that it is more of a bonus for our faith, it isnt the foundation of our faith, and much like the historicity of the resurrection and the minimal facts theory it will always leave some room for someone to deny it, because God will never force us to come to him, he loves us too much to take away our freedom of choice.

I see that Tlk has backtracked from his SUPPOSED FACTS posts:D
The shroud has that effect on people.

Jammin, have you checked out the cloth collapse theory of Professor John Jackson? To me it shows alot of promise and givesa pretty good explanation of how that image was formed. Its amazing how the blood clots on the shroud were also undisturbed when the image was formed. Fits in perfectly with the 3d spatial information encoded into the cloth.

I see that certain people are at it again trying to softly shift the conversation away from the evidences of the evidences of the shroud to the official position of the church on it. If they had bothered to look behind the scenes they would discover that many catholics believe it is the real the real thing including the Pope.

As I stated before, If you want to stay an atheist stay away from the shroud, it is radioactive for you:D
 
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My opinion of the shroud is that we don't really know. Maybe. But when people get all hyped up and base a lot on such claims, if one day they find out it was wrong, that could really be a big blow to them.

Actually it wont be a big blow at all because as I just claimed the shroud isnt the foundation of our beliefs as christians, it is a bonus, and you are entitled to your opinion, but is your opinion based on a totality of research you have done on the shroud, or just your opinion. Imagine if the great appologists like William Lane Craig and Gary habermas believed as you do, we probably wouldnt have much information on the historicity of Christianity would we?\
Imagine if Mark Antonacci, an agnostic who was sick and tired at being preached to by his christian girlfriend, didnt decided to prove to her that christianity was a fairy tale and started with researching the shroud. He wouldnt have been a Christian today would he:)

God leaves us with breadcrumbs if we are ready to follow the trail this is exactly what the shroud is. My guess is most of the unbelievers will continue to ignore the shroud and make excuses instead of truely researching it. They have made a free will choice havent they ;)

Just as they have all made a choice to ignore my post about God calling the earth a sphere in the old testament way before any atheist or greek doing so(or anyone else on earth), we all know how much atheists are interested in the truth arent we ;)

Ill say it again, Atheism is an emotional worldview not an intellectual one
 
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Tiberius

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I love how you say that unbelievers don't want to research the shroud when they are the ones who said, "Let's test it and see how old it is."

BTW, I missed the post where you showed that the old testament describes the world as a sphere. Where in the Bible is that?
 
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