Tribulation physics

[TLK Valentine]

You just proved my point. Instead of looking and researching the science and history of the shroud of turin, you bring a rediculous article about some relics that have nothing to do with it.

Because the Shroud of Turin is old news -- the figure depicted therein is too tall to be Christ.

But of course, that's only one of the many little inconsistencies that the true believers choose to ignore.

Debunking The Shroud: Made by Human Hands
Debunking The Shroud: Made by Human Hands

The Shroud of Turin Debunked: A Forged Christian Relic | Suite101.com

Radiocarbon 14 dating of the Shroud of Turin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Shroud Of Turin Reproduced; Italian Group Says Relic Is Man-Made, Fake

Sorry if you missed the memo.

These other relics dont have any peer reviewed research behind them, but the shroud of turin has hundreds of peer reviewed research papers on it, if you had bothered to look through the research, but why would anyone want to bother you with the facts .

You mean facts like the ones I just posted?

Now, Please entertain us with the facts that show this to be a fraud please, and remember before you answer that I have studied the shroud for 3 years and I originally thought it was a fraud.

And once you realized it was the genuine article, you underwent a wondrous conversion, right?

This is usually where the pseudo skeptic will take a pass and completely ignore it. Or maybe you can redicule it by bringing up the image of Jesus on a sandwich.

Nah, they'll be plenty of time for the emotional need to attach worship to concrete objects (hence, the popularity of religious relics, no matter how ridiculous) later.

Now you can make a complete fool of yourself
Ill be waiting

You needn't wait long -- I trust you'll be waiting to gloat regardless of what is said.

Oh also please show me where the ancient greeks knew the earth was round before the bible said it
Let me spare you the trouble. The ancient greeks started to theorize the earth was a sphere back in the 6th century bc but didnt fully come to a firm conclusion of the theory till 3rd century bc. Now open your eyes and do some research and tell us when the bible first said the earth was a sphere, and then you can admit to me that your wrong.

Sphere or circle? In any case, it looks to be around the same time as the Greeks came up with the idea.

 

[Jamin4422]

Actually, the problem is that the Ancient Greeks figured out the earth was round long before the Bible ever saw print -- unfortunately, many Christians prefer fables to facts.

The fact is that the Flat Earth Society propagated a myth that you seem to have bought into lock, stock and barrel. So right now it would appear that YOU are the one that is spreading myths and fables. Again your trying to accuse others of what your guilty of. For Christians this is no surprise. People falsely accuse them all the time. Always looking, seeking and searching to find some sort of fault. Well maybe you will enjoy better success next time with your muck racking endeavor.

 

[TLK Valentine]

The fact is that the Flat Earth Society propagated a myth that you seem to have bought into lock, stock and barrel.

Explain or retract.

 

[Jamin4422]

-- the figure depicted therein is too tall to be Christ.

Why how tall was Jesus? The amazing thing about the Shroud is the extreme accuracy. If it were a fake that would be even more amazing then if it were real because the Shroud is VERY accurate. It would become one of the best masterpieces every produced by man.

Of course skeptics and scoffers are going to read and study what other skeptics and scoffers have to say. True believers are going to study and read what other true believers have to say. So maybe your right, it is old news, nothing new to discuss here. Unless of course the Catholic Church should decide to allow new scientific testing so we have more information.

 

[Jamin4422]

Explain or retract.

Nothing to explain. The flat earth is a myth promoted by the flat earth society. Of course the guy is dead now, but the myth lives on.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Why how tall was Jesus?

Consider that the average height of a man for that period was about 5'6"-5'8", and the figure in the shroud (allowing for a little linen stretching) is 6'0"-6'2".

Also consider that according to the Gospels, when Jesus was arrested, Judas had to accompany the arresting officers and identify Jesus with a kiss -- the rationale being that they did not know and could not otherwise identify which one Jesus was.

Obviously, "arrest the tall guy" wasn't an option. Ever wonder why?

The amazing thing about the Shroud is the extreme accuracy.

Accuracy compared to what?

If it were a fake that would be even more amazing then if it were real because the Shroud is VERY accurate. It would become one of the best masterpieces every produced by man.

Which certainly makes it famous and worthy of study, regardless of whether it's real or not. As for "one of the best," well, I'll allow you a touch of hyperbole. Religious relics always tend to get the faithful worked up.

Of course skeptics and scoffers are going to read and study what other skeptics and scoffers have to say. True believers are going to study and read what other true believers have to say. So maybe your right, it is old news, nothing new to discuss here.

Or, we can read what everyone has to say and make an informed judgment -- just like you, C-C, and the rest of the believers think we haven't done.

Not everyone thinks like you do, JohnR7.

Unless of course the Catholic Church should decide to allow new scientific testing so we have more information.

Doubtful -- just like when Pope Innocent III declined to weigh in on which of Christ's 14 foreskins(!) was the real one. As long as the faithful still believe, why shoot yourself in the foot?

 

[TLK Valentine]

Nothing to explain. The flat earth is a myth promoted by the flat earth society. Of course the guy is dead now, but the myth lives on.

Right -- and you accused me of falling for it.

Explain or retract.

 

[Christian-Catholic]

Because the Shroud of Turin is old news -- the figure depicted therein is too tall to be Christ.

But of course, that's only one of the many little inconsistencies that the true believers choose to ignore.

Debunking The Shroud: Made by Human Hands
Debunking The Shroud: Made by Human Hands

The Shroud of Turin Debunked: A Forged Christian Relic | Suite101.com

Radiocarbon 14 dating of the Shroud of Turin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Shroud Of Turin Reproduced; Italian Group Says Relic Is Man-Made, Fake

Sorry if you missed the memo.

You mean facts like the ones I just posted?

And once you realized it was the genuine article, you underwent a wondrous conversion, right?


Nah, they'll be plenty of time for the emotional need to attach worship to concrete objects (hence, the popularity of religious relics, no matter how ridiculous) later.



You needn't wait long -- I trust you'll be waiting to gloat regardless of what is said.

Sphere or circle? In any case, it looks to be around the same time as the Greeks came up with the idea.

the shroud producedby human hands is a link to a very old article by walter mccrone. Are you seriously gonna being walter mccrone into this.
This is gonna be fun my friend.

Walter Mccrone said the shroud is a painting, when analysis by more advanced equipement found not only Blood but bilirubin blood which comes from a body that had been severely tortured as Jesus Body did.

Mccrone claimed there was no Blood on the shroud, yet when he supplied his research paper for peer review it was so heavily critisized that he withdrew it and instead published it in his microscopy journal in which he was the edictor and chief. I told that dude that you are abandoning the scientific method here because the evidence for the authenticity of the shroud is too strong and againt your worldview. So much for intellectual honesty. Mccrone claimed that the history of the shroud started during the time zone given by the 88 c14 tests. He couldnt be any more wrong.Wait a minute, im a christian and your an unbeliever, isnt it supposed to be you that is supposed to support scientific finds instead of relying on emotion

The hungarion pray codex by itself proves the c14 tests wrong as it was dated to the 1100's. Lets not take into effect that the blood stains on the sudarium of oviedo match perfectly with the blood stains on the shroud of turin in congruent matching points and that alone makes the shroud as old as the sudarium of oviedo. The sudariums history goes back to at least 470 ad where it was talked about in the cave of saint mark in Jerusalem.

Now instead of listening to your link about watler mccrone who couldnt get 1 paper to pass through the peer reviewed process lets turn to AGNOSTIC CHEMIST RAY ROGERS who did actually do scienbtific research the right way and showed conclusively that the c14 dating sample wasnt just not representative of the whole shroud but but was in fact much younger then the rest of the shroud in which sample fibers were taken from almost every part of it including the image part, and proved that in vanillin tests the c14 sample tested positive for vanillin while the rest of the shroud tested negative for vanillian and the vanillin tests show that the rest of the true parts of the shroud have a date of between 1300 and 3000 years of age. In fact the vanillin tests for the true areas of the shroud show it to be reasonably on par with the dead sea scrolls which also tested negative for vanillin. To date there has not been 1 peer reviewed research paper that disproved AGNOSTIC CHEMIST RAY ROGERS wrong on this. Rogers a a senior fellow from the famous los alamos labs, and unlike walter mccrone he believes in peer reviewed science.

This is a new invention called peer review research papers. Please get aquainted with them. http://www.shroud.it/ROGERS-3.PDF

This is the hungarian pray codex which alone debunks the c14 dating.

What is the Hungarian Pray Codex?

If you want we can always go deeper into the mandyion which was folded in 8 which was talked about in the 6th century, and when phycisist Professor John Jackson did a deeper study on the shroud surface he found creases which match the 8 fold perfectly.

As far as the man on the shroud being too tall, thats an OLDDDDD assertion which was also debunked. If by too tall you mean that heights of 5'8" to 5'11 being too tall, then your absolutely wrong. Please dont bring ther 6'8 assertion, that would be too much fun to debunk. Can you see here that when I first studied the shroud I started on the side of a skeptic of it, so I know all the tired, unscientific arguments that have been used and thoroughly debubnked for the last 20 years.

As far as the need to attach worship to physical objects, maybe you can wrap your head around this novel concept. No one is worshipping the shroud. Are you sure your atheist and not a fiedist lol

I will deal with the rediculous assertion that the shrouyd was reproduced in 2009 by an italian scientist after I come back from church.
Hey buddy maybe in that time u can come up with a peer reviewed research paper showing the shroud is a fraud. Im a nice guy and your friend so let me save you some time here, THERE ARE NONE, but im gonna love seeing you try. The smarter atheists (which you showed that u are one and not an agnostic as you claim) stay as far away from teh shroud as possible because the shroud gives them headaches, and rightfully so.

Now you can do the right thing and admit that you havent studied the shroud at all, instead of coming up with non peer reviewed pseudo scientific claims that the shroud is a fraud.

YOU DO BELIEVE IN THE SCIENTIFIC METHOD DONT YOU?????

 

[TLK Valentine]

the shroud producedby human hands is a link to a very old article by walter mccrone. Are you seriously gonna being walter mccrone into this.
This is gonna be fun my friend.

In all honesty, I was only doing a quick Google search. I suppose you've earned the right to gloat. Any comments on the remaining sources, or are you standing behind Rogers?

Just out of curiosity, what would it mean, exactly, if it could be established that the shroud does date back to the right time period?

Let's go a step further and assume that it is, in fact, the burial cloth of the man commonly known as "Jesus of Nazareth." What exactly have you gained?

 

[Christian-Catholic]

In all honesty, I was only doing a quick Google search. I suppose you've earned the right to gloat. Any comments on the remaining sources, or are you standing behind Rogers?

Just out of curiosity, what would it mean, exactly, if it could be established that the shroud does date back to the right time period?

Let's go a step further and assume that it is, in fact, the burial cloth of the man commonly known as "Jesus of Nazareth." What exactly have you gained?

Aha now you are finally being honest. The fact that the evidence points strongly to it not only being the burial shroud of christ, but also that forensic science shows that the image was made by an actual body, your next search is to understand the characteristics of the image itself. Once you do this you will understand that the only REASONABLE explanation for this image is that it was made during the resurrection process of Christ.
The christians who held the shroud after the apostles time werent witnesses to the resurrection, so they had to go on faith the=at the shroud and sudarium were the clothes used on Christ.
It looked like a faint image to them, nothing more.
It wasnt until segundo pia was allowed to take the first photograph of the shroud in 1898 that scientists became more interested in the shroud. Im not gonna tell you what segundo found on his negative plate, (your gonna have to start researching for yourself), but it shocked him to the point that he almost dropped the plate all together, it also shocked the world.

You have begun your journey my friend. Are you a true agnostic seeker who isnt afraid of following the evidence to where it would reasonably lead, or will u stay married dogmatically to your worldview.

The choice is yours, but remember this, when your standing before God in Judgement dont you dare tell him that he didnt give you enough evidence to believe.
God bless

 

[TLK Valentine]

Aha now you are finally being honest. The fact that the evidence points strongly to it not only being the burial shroud of christ, but also that forensic science shows that the image was made by an actual body, your next search is to understand the characteristics of the image itself.

Let's see where that goes, then.

Once you do this you will understand that the only REASONABLE explanation for this image is that it was made during the resurrection process of Christ.

Not knowing anything about the resurrection process, how can such a REASONABLE explanation be provided?

The christians who held the shroud after the apostles time werent witnesses to the resurrection, so they had to go on faith the=at the shroud and sudarium were the clothes used on Christ.
It looked like a faint image to them, nothing more.
It wasnt until segundo pia was allowed to take the first photograph of the shroud in 1898 that scientists became more interested in the shroud. Im not gonna tell you what segundo found on his negative plate, (your gonna have to start researching for yourself), but it shocked him to the point that he almost dropped the plate all together, it also shocked the world.

What he found was the image of a man. Which would make sense, since a shroud would be, in essence, a negative image in and of itself. Taking a negative of a negative, as it were, can bring up some interesting things.

Images whcih originally look dim can come into sharp contrast with a simple palette swap.

You have begun your journey my friend. Are you a true agnostic seeker who isnt afraid of following the evidence to where it would reasonably lead, or will u stay married dogmatically to your worldview.

Thank you, Yoda.

The choice is yours, but remember this, when your standing before God in Judgement dont you dare tell him that he didnt give you enough evidence to believe.
God bless

If God's followers are any indication of His own character, I may accept such judgement willingly.

 

[Christian-Catholic]

Let's see where that goes, then.



Not knowing anything about the resurrection process, how can such a REASONABLE explanation be provided?



What he found was the image of a man. Which would make sense, since a shroud would be, in essence, a negative image in and of itself. Taking a negative of a negative, as it were, can bring up some interesting things.

Images whcih originally look dim can come into sharp contrast with a simple palette swap.



Thank you, Yoda.



If God's followers are any indication of His own character, I may accept such judgement willingly.

Again I had to be rough on you for a purpose. You were claiming that us christians just dogmatically believe in things without any evidence. This was the only way I could get you to look into the shroud seriously. If youll remember it was you that started the subject of teh shroud by rediculing it and us believers. The shroud forced you to look into the mirror to see that you were acting exactly or even moreso then us believers .

Actually the the shroud is the only 2d image on earth with 3d spatial information encoded on it. It is much more then simple pallette swap. Now if you dont want to approach the shroud with the heart of a seeker that will all be up on you.

Instead of saying you were the one who rediculed the shroud your still fighting reason and your hypocrisy. It will take a while for you, but I think I have lite a fire in your heart on this. Another problem here is that this image was not made by body to cloth contact, and since the 3d spatial information has been shown to disappate after 10 centimeters (around 2 to 3 inches, the only way this image could have been formed was that the body of Christ had to have been floating between the inner top and inner bottom of the shroud during image formation. There is no forger on earth that could have formed this image.

The fact that your inclined to accept your judgment by God instead of seeking the truth because your pride was hurt should tell you a bit more about urself. basically your telling that because your pride was hurt that u would accept eternal torment in hell? This doesnt sound very rational or reasonable at all. If its the truth its the truth. Maybe instead of you looking at my technique of trying to get you to look at the shroud seriously, you should first look into the mirror and see your rediculing response that you initially claimed were FACTS . I have studied the shroud now for more then 3 years(which I graciously warned you about and yet I still dont know jack compared to the more serious shroud researchers .

The shroud is one of the most devestating relics to dogmatic atheists because it hits them right where it hurts them most. They claim "GIVE US FACTS"

I rest my case.

By the way Yoda is a fictional Character, Jesus is our lord

 

[TLK Valentine]

Again I had to be rough on you for a purpose.

beyond personal satisfaction?

You were claiming that us christians just dogmatically believe in things without any evidence.

What I said was, "many Christians prefer fables to facts."

I don't see where or how that statement has been debunked. if you would like me to clarify that Christians are not the only ones who do this, I would've thought that would be a given.

This was the only way I could get you to look into the shroud seriously.

That does seem to be your particular fetish, doesn't it?

If youll remember it was you that started the subject of teh shroud by rediculing it and us believers.

I can do more than remember, I can go back in the thread.

The Problem is that Atheists thought the earth was flat during the time that the old testament describes the earth as being a circle.



Isiah40:22 There is One who is dwelling above the circle of the earth, the dwellers in which are as grasshoppers, the One who is stretching out the heavens just as a fine gauze, who spreads them out like a tent in which to dwell.

But then again Atheists abandon all reason and the scientific method when it goes against their worldview. A perfect case in point is the shroud of turin. This is why I have always believed that Atheism is an emotional worldview and not an intellectual one.

So we see that it was you, and not me, who began with the flat-out fiction of "Atheists thought the world was flat" and then brought up the Shroud of Turin -- that being (I suspect) your goal all along.

The shroud forced you to look into the mirror to see that you were acting exactly or even moreso then us believers .

All it forced me to realize was that you're more knowledgeable on "Shroudology" (to coin a phrase) than myself.

Three years of studying it, and you've managed to show off what you've learned. I salute you.

Actually the the shroud is the only 2d image on earth with 3d spatial information encoded on it. It is much more then simple pallette swap. Now if you dont want to approach the shroud with the heart of a seeker that will all be up on you.

Given that the shroud is an object, and what you're suggesting is beginning to drift down a slippery slope towards idolatry, I think I'll let the matter slide. One would think that whether or not the shroud is real would not affect a person's belief system so.

Instead of saying you were the one who rediculed the shroud your still fighting reason and your hypocrisy. It will take a while for you, but I think I have lite a fire in your heart on this.

You would very much like to think that. Believe what you will.

Another problem here is that this image was not made by body to cloth contact, and since the 3d spatial information has been shown to disappate after 10 centimeters (around 2 to 3 inches, the only way this image could have been formed was that the body of Christ had to have been floating between the inner top and inner bottom of the shroud during image formation.

floating between the inner top and inner bottom, you say? So the shroud loosened around 2-3 inches from his body, then? Interesting.

There is no forger on earth that could have formed this image.

No known forger, at any rate.

The fact that your inclined to accept your judgment by God instead of seeking the truth because your pride was hurt should tell you a bit more about urself. basically your telling that because your pride was hurt that u would accept eternal torment in hell?

There you go, inventing arguments that aren't there. Who said anything about pride? Certainly not me. This is about morality, and a being who, as he is depicted, is very much deficient in it.

The only person who could ever deserve a place of eternal torment is the one who would subject others to it.

This doesnt sound very rational or reasonable at all. If its the truth its the truth.

Indeed -- and if the truth is that the Universe is in the hands of the greatest sadist imaginable, then the true torment would be in his presence, not his absence.

Maybe instead of you looking at my technique of trying to get you to look at the shroud seriously, you should first look into the mirror and see your rediculing response that you initially claimed were FACTS.

I still see a host of religious relics that, in spite of the truth, are still venerated. That certainly hasn't changed.

Whether or not the Shroud of Turin belongs in this category is, to be sure, debatable, but I don't plan on bowing to it just yet.

I have studied the shroud now for more then 3 years(which I graciously warned you about and yet I still dont know jack compared to the more serious shroud researchers .

Don't give yourself too much credit -- "graciously" might be a bit of a stretch.

The shroud is one of the most devestating relics to dogmatic atheists because it hits them right where it hurts them most. They claim "GIVE US FACTS"

And you've given some interesting facts -- I find your conclusions, however, to be a tad premature.

In any case, you've accomplished what you've set out to do; you have every reason to feel proud of yourself.

I rest my case.

So long as you rest.

By the way Yoda is a fictional Character, Jesus is our lord

You mean your lord, C-C.

 

[Christian-Catholic]

I will not go back to your supposed FACTS on the shroud, and it looks like you will ignore the shroud completely, so instead of being a real truth seeker you ran away from a conclusion that would make you uncomfortable. It's ok as alot of people are emotionally stuck in their worldview rather than seek the truth, even though in your sake you had everything to gain and nothing to lose. It's all good as God gave us each the free will choice to except him or reject him.

You also didn't bother to research my assertion that the bible did say the earth is a sphere way before anyone else even though I backed my assertion with proof.
You can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink
This conversation is over since only one of us is interested in the facts and the truth
God bless

 

[TLK Valentine]

I will not go back to your supposed FACTS on the shroud, and it looks like you will ignore the shroud completely, so instead of being a real truth seeker you ran away from a conclusion that would make you uncomfortable.

Or perhaps I'll just stop chasing a red herring? You really need to look at the OP and see what you're hitching your wagon to.

It's ok as alot of people are emotionally stuck in their worldview rather than seek the truth, even though in your sake you had everything to gain and nothing to lose. It's all good as God gave us each the free will choice to except him or reject him.

I think you mean "accept." But...

You also didn't bother to research my assertion that the bible did say the earth is a sphere way before anyone else even though I backed my assertion with proof.

Actually, I did look into it -- sorry if you missed it. But that was never your point, was it?

I really do want to give you credit, though -- you played me, and played me well.

You got my attention with that perfectly crafted piece of ignorance about Atheists thinking the world was flat when the Bible said otherwise, dangled a seemingly throwaway line in there about the Shroud of Turin, and -- much to my embarrassment -- I took the bait.

Mind if I offer you a word of constructive criticism? I never for one moment believed you had the slightest interest in my spiritual well-being -- you enjoyed putting me in my place a little too much; it was clear that you were doing this less for God's glory and more for your own.

You're going to have to work on that, my friend.

Don't feel bad; sincerity, compassion, an altruistic caring for others... these are hard things to fake. My advice would be to tone down the wise teacher schtick, and try to come off as just a little less sanctimonious once you realize that not everyone is as impressed with your learning as you are.

Just a thought -- take it for what it's worth.

 

[dad]

So you do believe in evolution then. Does that mean all the bones and fossils we find are less then 6,000 years old?

At most, I reckon. For man and a lot of mammals, they are post flood. (4500 years or so ago many say the flood was)

 

[dad]

Aha now you are finally being honest. The fact that the evidence points strongly to it not only being the burial shroud of christ, but also that forensic science shows that the image was made by an actual body, your next search is to understand the characteristics of the image itself. Once you do this you will understand that the only REASONABLE explanation for this image is that it was made during the resurrection process of Christ.
The christians who held the shroud after the apostles time werent witnesses to the resurrection, so they had to go on faith the=at the shroud and sudarium were the clothes used on Christ.
It looked like a faint image to them, nothing more.
It wasnt until segundo pia was allowed to take the first photograph of the shroud in 1898 that scientists became more interested in the shroud. Im not gonna tell you what segundo found on his negative plate, (your gonna have to start researching for yourself), but it shocked him to the point that he almost dropped the plate all together, it also shocked the world.

You have begun your journey my friend. Are you a true agnostic seeker who isnt afraid of following the evidence to where it would reasonably lead, or will u stay married dogmatically to your worldview.

The choice is yours, but remember this, when your standing before God in Judgement dont you dare tell him that he didnt give you enough evidence to believe.
God bless

My opinion of the shroud is that we don't really know. Maybe. But when people get all hyped up and base a lot on such claims, if one day they find out it was wrong, that could really be a big blow to them.

 

[TLK Valentine]

My opinion of the shroud is that we don't really know. Maybe. But when people get all hyped up and base a lot on such claims, if one day they find out it was wrong, that could really be a big blow to them.

Indeed -- which is one of the reasons the Church is usually (officially) quite on the subject of what is or isn't a holy relic.

I will give John Paul credit, however, for what he said in his commentary on the Shroud:

The Shroud is a challenge to our intelligence. It first of all requires of every person, particularly the researcher, that he humbly grasp the profound message it sends to his reason and his life. The mysterious fascination of the Shroud forces questions to be raised about the sacred Linen and the historical life of Jesus. Since it is not a matter of faith, the Church has no specific competence to pronounce on these questions. She entrusts to scientists the task of continuing to investigate, so that satisfactory answers may be found to the questions connected with this Sheet, which, according to tradition, wrapped the body of our Redeemer after he had been taken down from the cross. . .

The image of human suffering is reflected in the Shroud. It reminds modern man, often distracted by prosperity and technological achievements, of the tragic situation of his many brothers and sisters, and invites him to question himself about the mystery of suffering in order to explore its causes. The imprint left by the tortured body of the Crucified One, which attests to the tremendous human capacity for causing pain and death to one's fellow man, stands as an icon of the suffering of the innocent in every age: of the countless tragedies that have marked past history and the dramas that continue to unfold in the world. Before the Shroud, how can we not think of the millions of people who die of hunger, of the horrors committed in the many wars that soak nations in blood, of the brutal exploitation of women and children, of the millions of human beings who live in hardship and humiliation on the edges of great cities, especially in developing countries? How can we not recall with dismay and pity those who do not enjoy basic civil rights, the victims of torture and terrorism, the slaves of criminal organizations? By calling to mind these tragic situations, the Shroud not only spurs us to abandon our selfishness but leads us to discover the mystery of suffering, which, sanctified by Christ's sacrifice, achieves salvation for all humanity. Death is not the ultimate goal of human existence

The Holy See - Vatican web site

It's humbling, and it reminds me that maybe, much like the Bible stories themselves, whether or not the shroud is the genuine article isn't the point.

 

[Jamin4422]

I was only doing a quick Google search.

I do not think you care if the shroud is real or not. The only thing your interested in is winning the debate. I read all I could find about the shroud around 20 years ago. I am not only convinced that it is real, but that we can learn a lot from a study of the shroud. Actually I am talking to others that maybe reading this. Because I know your not interested. The real question is if people believe in the resurrection. If they do not believe in eternal life and if they do not believe in the resurrection, then it follows they do not accept the Shoud of Turin.

 

[dad]

Indeed -- which is one of the reasons the Church is usually (officially) quite on the subject of what is or isn't a holy relic.

I will give John Paul credit, however, for what he said in his commentary on the Shroud:



The Holy See - Vatican web site

It's humbling, and it reminds me that maybe, much like the Bible stories themselves, whether or not the shroud is the genuine article isn't the point.

Now that is a another matter altogether. I can think of no bible story that isn't true. Those we can take a stand on.