Tribulation and more...

[joshua 1 9]

If there is tribulation even to this day around the world, the simple word "great" added to the word tribulation simply means an increase of what is currently occurring... Again, tribulation means trials and afflication, which from the beginning of the church age we have read about and bare witness to today.

Yes we have tribulation. The GREAT tribulation refers to what took place in Jerusalem when the temple was torn down and what will take place at the end of the church age.

 

[joshua 1 9]

If there is tribulation even to this day around the world, the simple word "great" added to the word tribulation simply means an increase of what is currently occurring... Again, tribulation means trials and afflication, which from the beginning of the church age we have read about and bare witness to today.

Yes we have tribulation. The GREAT tribulation refers to what took place in Jerusalem when the temple was torn down and what will take place at the end of the church age.

 

[joshua 1 9]

If there is tribulation even to this day around the world, the simple word "great" added to the word tribulation simply means an increase of what is currently occurring... Again, tribulation means trials and afflication, which from the beginning of the church age we have read about and bare witness to today.

Yes we have tribulation. The GREAT tribulation refers to what took place in Jerusalem when the temple was torn down and what will take place at the end of the church age.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Yes we have tribulation. The GREAT tribulation refers to what took place in Jerusalem when the temple was torn down and what will take place at the end of the church age.

No, The tribulation is normative for God's Saints on earth. The tribulation will be here as long as God's people remain on earth. The "great" tribulation is greater than normal for the Saints IN THE CHURCH is because it is a time when the beast comes out of bottomless pit to wage spiritual war against the church, , and to overcome them with his army of false prophets and christs, and to kill (silence) the truthful testimony. Are you familiar with people at church who says, "Who do you think you are to judge?" lately? It is beacuse they are being deceived by false prophets. This has nothing to do with the physical temple, world leader, or National Israel. It has to do with the apostasy and desolation taking place in the New Testament congregation prior to Second Coming. Sadly, while many people are deceived and looking for physical fulfillment in the Middle East hoping for a "escape" from so-called 7 years tribulation, that their congregations are actually under the judgment of God for unfaithfulness that they could not know it!

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[The Times]

This has nothing to do with the physical temple, world leader, or National Israel. It has to do with the apostasy and desolation taking place in the New Testament congregation prior to Second Coming.

You are absolutely correct! Hear, hear, the Holy Temple that is being overrrun by the People (Anthropos) of Sin is of the body of Christ, the denominational congregation who are apostasizing by virtue of serving a lie, instead of remaining in the truth of Jesus Christ.

They are now being revealed in numbers within the many congregations, so that their works are manifest, within the separation of the Wheat from the Tares end of days event.

That is why in Zechariah 14:1-3, it is declared that the denominations will be infiltrated by this apostasy, owing to the strong delusion, within the congregation who serve a lie and have no pleasure in righteousness.

God judges them two fold, according to Apostle Paul. 1st, they are exposed (judged) and their lies destroyed by the breath of his Spirit, that is coming from the half of Christ's body of believers that are not exiled from his Holy City.

We have a portion of scripture which also deals with EVEN HIM, pointing to the grand master deceiver, the beast of the bottomless Pitt aka Satan, manifesting as the Abomination of Desolation, so that the fallen who succumb to the Black Dragon of apostasy through his razzle dazzle from earthly Anti-Christ Middle East kingdom, are finally destroyed along with Satan in the 2nd fold judgment, at Christ's brilliant coming.

 

[jgr]

when you turn to the LORD your God and obey His voice 31 (for the LORD your God is a merciful God), He will not forsake you nor destroy you, nor forget the covenant of your fathers which He swore to them.

Pursuant to the promissory bequests of the sole, exclusive, and everlasting New Will and Testament written in the Blood of the Divine Testator Jesus Christ: Fulfilled in and inherited by the risen Testator Himself, and jointly inherited by all those who have placed their faith in Him. (2 Corinthians 1:20; Galatians 3:16,29; Hebrews 1:1-2; Romans 8:16-17; Hebrews 9:15-17; Hebrews 10:9; Hebrews 8:13; Hebrews 13:20; Hebrews 8:6)

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[Davy]

Rev 4 the 24 elders already have crowns and are casting them before the LORD and this is way before the 7th trumpet.

Rev.4 & 5 with the elders is actually a FUTURE VIEW after Christ's return. Rev.5 especially talks about those redeemed from the earth who sing the "new song" that the 144,000 of Rev.14 sing while upon Mt. Sion with Jesus, which definitely is after Jesus' return.

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

you realize that they are singing of a future or ruling with Him upon the earth the same promise that is given to those beheaded for the testimony who did not receive the mark of the beast. These passages support a literal 1000 years on earth with Jesus ruling as king after the tribulation.

 

[Ronald]

It is easy to not remember who said what on here. With the problems of the service today, found a post of mine from 2003 that someone had quoted in their reply. That is the same year I came to this board. It is from August, the same month that I joined the board.
The church is not here for the vials when they begin.
What do you think "cage" shows in Rev. 18:2? That word is only in a few verses in the Bible.

I know what a cage is, been to the zoo many times.
A "cage" for every unclean bird, like a vulture means a breeding ground, habitation, a haunt. Your point?
Babylon is symbolic for the world system. All the false religions, philosophies, occults, astrology, basically all ways that are unrighteous came out of that city. God confused their language and scattered them throughout the world and so the world was corrupted to this day.
Yes the rapture means the church is gone, but the bowls of wrath begin and continue this great tribulation.
So again, why would you think the seven bowls are NOT PART OF THIS GREAT TRIBULATION?
It seems like you think the Great Tribulation is only for Christians? It will be a test for us for sure and many will lose their faith (which is what I think the great falling away is).

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

Pursuant to the promissory bequests of the sole, exclusive, and everlasting New Will and Testament written in the Blood of the Divine Testator Jesus Christ: Fulfilled in and inherited by the risen Testator Himself, and jointly inherited by all those who have placed their faith in Him. (2 Corinthians 1:20; Galatians 3:16,29; Hebrews 1:1-2; Romans 8:16-17; Hebrews 9:15-17; Hebrews 10:9; Hebrews 8:13; Hebrews 13:20; Hebrews 8:6)

There is a class of saved vs non saved and that is all under the new covenant and with that portion of your theology I agree. There are so many prophecies regarding Israel, Jerusalem in the end times being a real player with a real destiny that to dismiss it at this point is ignoring the text and actual evidence in the world that the literal scenarios are beginning to play out. Also many prophecies if transferred to the church make no sense. For instance Isaiah 61 which Jesus read a portion of the text and stopped mid sentence and said this is today fulfilled in your hearing.

The rest of the chapter is speaking of this same person (Christ) and the things accomplished in the day of vengeance of our God. In this passage it is addressed to those who mourn in Zion. Then it promises God will make another everlasting covenant with them. It makes clear distinctions between those in Zion and the Gentiles. It ends with righteousness springing up before all nations. I am asking you to look also at the word in Luke 1 Zacharias speaking by the Holy Spirit promising a deliverer from their enemies according to the promise made to the fathers and from that deliverance they enter into a time of worshiping and serving without fear and in righteousness from that point on.
The 2nd coming at Armageddon Israel will be delivered and those in Zion will mourn as Israel sees that Jesus was one with the Father all along. The greatest love of God will accomplish righteousness in Israel after thousands of years of them missing it. Paul said blindness has partially come to Israel until... until the 2nd coming. Here is both Luke 1 and Isaiah 61 showing what will be accomplished at the 2nd coming prior to the millennium.

Luke
68 “Blessed is the Lord God of Israel,
For He has visited and redeemed His people,
69 And has raised up a horn of salvation for us
In the house of His servant David,
70 As He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets,
Who have been since the world began,
71 That we should be saved from our enemies
And from the hand of all who hate us,
72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers
And to remember His holy covenant,
73 The oath which He swore to our father Abraham:
74 To grant us that we,
Being delivered from the hand of our enemies,
Might serve Him without fear,
75 In holiness and righteousness before Him all the days of our life.

isaiah 61

To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD,
And the day of vengeance of our God;
To comfort all who mourn,
3 To console those who mourn in Zion,
To give them beauty for ashes,
The oil of joy for mourning,
The garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness;
That they may be called trees of righteousness,
The planting of the LORD, that He may be glorified.”
4 And they shall rebuild the old ruins,
They shall raise up the former desolations,
And they shall repair the ruined cities,
The desolations of many generations.
5 Strangers shall stand and feed your flocks,
And the sons of the foreigner
Shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers.
6 But you shall be named the priests of the LORD,
They shall call you the servants of our God.
You shall eat the riches of the Gentiles,
And in their glory you shall boast.
7 Instead of your shame you shall have double honor,
And instead of confusion they shall rejoice in their portion.
Therefore in their land they shall possess double;
Everlasting joy shall be theirs.
8 “For I, the LORD, love justice;
I hate robbery for burnt offering;
I will direct their work in truth,
And will make with them an everlasting covenant.
9 Their descendants shall be known among the Gentiles,
And their offspring among the people.
All who see them shall acknowledge them,
That they are the posterity whom the LORD has blessed.”
10 I will greatly rejoice in the LORD,
My soul shall be joyful in my God;
For He has clothed me with the garments of salvation,
He has covered me with the robe of righteousness,
As a bridegroom decks himself with ornaments,
And as a bride adorns herself with her jewels.
11 For as the earth brings forth its bud,
As the garden causes the things that are sown in it to spring forth,
So the Lord GOD will cause righteousness and praise to spring forth before all the nations.

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

vinsight4u wrote: (#17)
"then go the wrong way
One reason so many are off as to the prophecies is that they have built them on the lie of a pre or mid trib rapture.
They make up things at their whim and just keep on running for the devil deceiving themselves and others!"

This is from August 2003.
August is when I came to this board.

the 3 views that you are calling made up are taken out of a promise that people will not die at some point and be translated. these verses are not made up they are Bible prophecy.

1 Thess 4
5 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

1 cor 15
0 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

So those who study the end time chronology are trying to make a case for whee it happens. This is why the debate over did revelation occur in 70 AD or is it future and it their a literal 1000 year kingdom of Jesus on the earth are so important. For instance the idea of world peace and unity is a nice sentiment. However this is what one would expect to be happening at the time the anitchrist arrives with the false prophet. So the ecumenical interfaith movement is going to be at odds with futurist. The futurist see Israel and especially the return of the daily sacrifices in Jerusalem as key elements that demonstrate the stage for the literal abomination of desolation at the mid point of Daniels 70th week as a certain destiny. The fact is Israel is preparing to resume the sacrifices now and Joel says one the the reasons for the great day of the LORD is they divided His land. The world is focused on Jerusalem and the goal is to divide the land. Israel has prepared everything to resume the sacrifices not done since 70AD. So those who see the verses about being taken out can link them in some way to this future prophetic scenario playing out.

I believe it is coming and hope all would repent and draw near to God whatever your view on when it will happen the focus on Christ. To those who ignore prophecy I think it will be like Jesus on the road with the two disciples and He opens the scriptures to them and showed them all that was written of Him. The 2nd coming there is a lot more prophecy for that than the 1st coming so study hard and get a handle on it. You might come away with an different view of these passages than you now hold.

 

[faroukfarouk]

No, The tribulation is normative for God's Saints on earth. The tribulation will be here as long as God's people remain on earth. The "great" tribulation is greater than normal for the Saints IN THE CHURCH is because it is a time when the beast comes out of bottomless pit to wage spiritual war against the church, , and to overcome them with his army of false prophets and christs, and to kill (silence) the truthful testimony. Are you familiar with people at church who says, "Who do you think you are to judge?" lately? It is beacuse they are being deceived by false prophets. This has nothing to do with the physical temple, world leader, or National Israel. It has to do with the apostasy and desolation taking place in the New Testament congregation prior to Second Coming. Sadly, while many people are deceived and looking for physical fulfillment in the Middle East hoping for a "escape" from so-called 7 years tribulation, that their congregations are actually under the judgment of God for unfaithfulness that they could not know it!

Matthew 24.21: "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

John 16.33: "These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world."

In these verses there are two distinct uses of the word.

The Matthew 24.21 reference speaks of a unique event.

The John 16.33 refers to the tribulation principle which can be expected while the believer is on earth prior to the Lord's coming, but which through the peace of the Lord can be endured by faith.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Matthew 24.21: "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

John 16.33: "These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world

In these verses there are two distinct uses of the word.

No, the word, tribulation (in greek, thlipsis), in both passages, are the same.

The Matthew 24.21 reference speaks of a unique event.

Yes, it is a unique event because it is a greater version of the same tribulation.

The John 16.33 refers to the tribulation principle which can be expected while the believer is on earth prior to the Lord's coming, but which through the peace of the Lord can be endured by faith.

Christ was saying that as long as we are in the world as His Witnesses, no matter where we are in God's timetable, we will have tribulation, whether in the great tribulation or not, we will have peace in Christ because of our faith.

Revelation 1:9
[9] I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Since we and John both are in the kingdom of Jesus Christ which has established at the Cross, we all experience the same tribulation John was part of, yet his book did mention the great tribulation period which takes place in the end, prior to Second Coming. Not a different tribulation. Not a new kind of tribulation. It is the same tribulation, only greater in the end, such as not since the beginning of the world, nor every shall be.

 

[faroukfarouk]

No, the word, tribulation (in greek, thlipsis), in both passages, are the same.



Yes, it is a unique event because it is a greater version of the same tribulation.



Christ was saying that as long as we are in the world as His Witnesses, no matter where we are in God's timetable, we will have tribulation, whether in the great tribulation or not, we will have peace in Christ because of our faith.

Revelation 1:9
[9] I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Since we and John both are in the kingdom of Jesus Christ which has established at the Cross, we all experience the same tribulation John was part of, yet his book did mention the great tribulation period which takes place in the end, prior to Second Coming. Not a different tribulation. Not a new kind of tribulation. It is the same tribulation, only greater in the end, such as not since the beginning of the world, nor every shall be.

The same word used in different ways to refer to a distinct concept and event respectively.

The Lord Jesus is John 16.33 is not referring to a unique, future event: which Matthew 24.21 undoubtedly is doing.

 

[TribulationSigns]

The same word used in different ways to refer to a distinct concept and event respectively.

The Lord Jesus is John 16.33 is not referring to a unique, future event: which Matthew 24.21 undoubtedly is doing.

Sigh.... let's see...

1.) John and the Christians who lived and died before the end-time great tribulation experienced tribulation.

2.) Christians who were alive from church age into the end-time great tribulation period experienced tribulation.

3.) Christians who born and lived in the end-time great tribulation period experienced tribulation.

We, as Christians, all experience tribulation, only those who live in the "great" tribulation will experience greater of the SAME tribulation.

And your point is? Are you saying that the "great tribulation" is a unique period that you do not believe Christians should not be here on earth is that why you are trying to make a distinction between two passages to support this theory?

 

[faroukfarouk]

Sigh.... let's see...

1.) John and the Christians who lived and died before the end-time great tribulation experienced tribulation.

2.) Christians who were alive from church age into the great tribulation period experienced tribulation.

3.) Christians who born and lived within great tribulation period experienced tribulation.

We, as Christians, all experience tribulation, only those who live in the "great" tribulation will experience greater of SAME tribulation.

And your point is? Are you saying that the "great tribulation" is a unique period that you do not believe Christians should not be here on earth is that why you are trying to make a distinction between two passages to support this theory?

Matthew 24.21 is indeed a unique event. It's not a term being used in the same way as in John 16.33. This is very clear indeed.

You are entitled to your views, but it's not realistic to expect that other Christians coming independently to those passages are likely to have the impression that they are supposedly referring to the same event and concept respectively.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Matthew 24.21 is indeed a unique event. It's not a term being used in the same way as in John 16.33. This is very clear indeed.

You are entitled to your views, but it's not realistic to expect that other Christians coming independently to those passages are likely to have the impression that they are supposedly referring to the same event and concept respectively.

Let think logical for a moment? If any Christians in the end-time great tribulation period read John 16:33. Do you think they will say, "Oh this verse does not apply to us because we are in a unique event?"

 

[faroukfarouk]

Let think logical for a moment? If any Christians in the end-time great tribulation period read John 16:33. Do you think they will say, "Oh this verse does not apply to us because we are in a unique event?"

It's not uniquely about that specific event. This is very clear.

What is very clear also is that we differ significantly on this aspect. Thank-you.
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