Tribulation and more...

[dqhall]

Okay, about to open Pandora's box but i ask you all kindly to be respectful when chiming in...

Christ as well as OT prophecies speak of something referred to as Eschatology. Simply put this relates to end time events.

One thing i want to say to start off this discussion is the phase Tribulation, or the Great Tribulation...

The Great Tribulation (Greek: θλίψις μεγάλη, thlipsis megalē)

If there is tribulation even to this day around the world, the simple word "great" added to the word tribulation simply means an increase of what is currently occurring... Again, tribulation means trials and afflication, which from the beginning of the church age we have read about and bare witness to today.

If this is the case, why on earth would people assume we would not experience this event and base there view on escaping these hard times to come? If you've never read Foxes book of Martyrs i suggest you read these stories of persecution against the church, then ask yourself why you think your better then they are and will be removed from this affliction to come.

Persecutions continue to this day. Al Shabaab has been killing innocent Christians in Africa. It is not safe to publicly declare yourself a Christian in North Korea. Drug gangs have been murdering law abiding Christians in Mexico. The United States has the highest murder rate per capita of any developed nation and the least gun control laws of any developed nation. These are persecutions, but not the sign of the end.

Matthew 24:6 (WEB) "You will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you aren't troubled, for all this must happen, but the end is not yet."

The Gospel message will be offered to all nations:
Matthew 24:14 (WEB) This Good News of the Kingdom will be preached in the whole world for a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

They will be eating, drinking and going about their business like the people of Pompeii before Vesuvius erupted in 79 AD killing them all.

Christ's second coming will be sudden:
Matthew 24:27 (WEB) For as the lightning flashes from the east, and is seen even to the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

Okay, about to open Pandora's box but i ask you all kindly to be respectful when chiming in...

Christ as well as OT prophecies speak of something referred to as Eschatology. Simply put this relates to end time events.

One thing i want to say to start off this discussion is the phase Tribulation, or the Great Tribulation...

The Great Tribulation (Greek: θλίψις μεγάλη, thlipsis megalē)

If there is tribulation even to this day around the world, the simple word "great" added to the word tribulation simply means an increase of what is currently occurring... Again, tribulation means trials and afflication, which from the beginning of the church age we have read about and bare witness to today.

If this is the case, why on earth would people assume we would not experience this event and base there view on escaping these hard times to come? If you've never read Foxes book of Martyrs i suggest you read these stories of persecution against the church, then ask yourself why you think your better then they are and will be removed from this affliction to come.

Correct.



Jesus Christ already received crown when He has established His kingdom at the Cross, going forth conquering and to conquer through the Church until the End.

Revelation 6:2
[2] And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

Revelation 14 is a picture of all Saints from old and new testament congregation, which the 144,000 symbols. They are men redeemed from the earth.



Revelation 19:11-14
[11] And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
[12] His eyes were as a flame of fire, and and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
[13] And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
[14] And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Yes, it is Jesus Christ upon White Horse (same white horse back in Revelation 6). He has many crowns? Where did He get that from? From His Saints!

Revelation 4:10-11
[10] The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
[11] Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

The 24 elders represent the Elect. They are "elders" IN CHRIST for they have a wisdom of Christ. They cast their crowns to their King. That is Christ's crowns signifies being King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

And He will bring the armies of His Saints from old and new testament with Him at Second Coming (include those who are alive and remains to meet with them in the air) who clothed in fine linen and white and clean because their sins have been removed!

Correct.



Jesus Christ already received crown when He has established His kingdom at the Cross, going forth conquering and to conquer through the Church until the End.

Revelation 6:2
[2] And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

Revelation 14 is a picture of all Saints from old and new testament congregation, which the 144,000 symbols. They are men redeemed from the earth.



Revelation 19:11-14
[11] And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
[12] His eyes were as a flame of fire, and and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
[13] And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
[14] And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Yes, it is Jesus Christ upon White Horse (same white horse back in Revelation 6). He has many crowns? Where did He get that from? From His Saints!

Revelation 4:10-11
[10] The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
[11] Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

The 24 elders represent the Elect. They are "elders" IN CHRIST for they have a wisdom of Christ. They cast their crowns to their King. That is Christ's crowns signifies being King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

And He will bring the armies of His Saints from old and new testament with Him at Second Coming (include those who are alive and remains to meet with them in the air) who clothed in fine linen and white and clean because their sins have been removed!

Your applying the rider of the white horse in Rev 6 is dangerously wrong as you are applying the verse on the antichrist to Jesus Christ. The LORD does come back on a white horse and destroys with the brightness of his coming and with the sword of word. He is coming like a stone cut without hands Dan 2 after the 7 years is over. The one coming in Rev 6 is at the beginning of these days and followed by the other horses that bring death and destruction and persecution. The other horse riders are following the one on the white horse and are not of God. This rider is coming with a bow and it does not mention having any arrows.
Dan 8
“And in the latter time of their kingdom,
When the transgressors have reached their fullness,
A king shall arise,
Having fierce features,
Who understands sinister schemes.
24 His power shall be mighty, but not by his own power;
He shall destroy fearfully,
And shall prosper and thrive;
He shall destroy the mighty, and also the holy people.
25 “Through his cunning
He shall cause deceit to prosper under his rule;[fn]
And he shall exalt himself in his heart.
He shall destroy many in their prosperity.
He shall even rise against the Prince of princes;
But he shall be broken without human means.[fn]
26 “And the vision of the evenings and mornings
Which was told is true;
Therefore seal up the vision,
For it refers to many days in the future.”

This is the rider on the white horse as the destruction of many in their prosperity is equal to a time when it cost a days wage for a quart of wheat on a global level. He is also destroying the holy people.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

In Scripture we see the clear transcendence and replacement of the old covenant physical temple of national Israel, by the New Covenant spiritual temple of spiritual Israel, the Church. In Matthew 24:2, Christ predicted the final stage in that process, the destruction of the physical temple. The first stage began some years earlier on the Day of Pentecost when 3,000 living stones were emplaced upon the foundation of Christ the Cornerstone, and the apostles and prophets, in the beginning of construction of the Church (1 Peter 2:5). That construction will continue until Christ returns again.

God will never permit that process to be reversed or compromised. Any attempt to “build again the things which I destroyed” (Galatians 2:18) will be catastrophic.

The physical has forever been transcended by the spiritual.

God made an everlasting covenant with Abraham about his seed becoming a great nation and that national promise to the land was affirmed over and over again with a genealogy to the 12 patriarchs and follows a history over laid with many prophecies regarding this nation and to all the world. The covenant that is new I agree with you in in full effect that salvation in only in Jesus Christ who took the cup and announced this is the cup of the new covenant made in my blood. He said from the cross< "it is finished" or "paid in full and the veil of the temple was torn from top to bottom. So on this point there is no dispute the old is done away with.
The covenant was promised in Jer 31 and in the promise to bring a new covenant it is important to note that it specifies which covenant it is replacing. 1 “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt,

The covenant made with Abraham and the land of Canaan was confirmed by God as an unconditional covenant as the LORD consumed the sacrifices of Abraham and placed no conditions on Abraham. psalm 105
7 He is the LORD our God;
His judgments are in all the earth.
8 He remembers His covenant forever,
The word which He commanded, for a thousand generations,
9 The covenant which He made with Abraham,
And His oath to Isaac,
10 And confirmed it to Jacob for a statute,
To Israel as an everlasting covenant,
11 Saying, “To you I will give the land of Canaan
As the allotment of your inheritance,”
12 When they were few in number,
Indeed very few, and strangers in it.
The 2nd coming of Jesus is directly linked to the return of the sacrifices in which the abomination of desolation will occur in. Hosea 3 4 For the children of Israel shall abide many days without king or prince, without sacrifice or sacred pillar, without ephod or teraphim. 5 Afterward the children of Israel shall return and seek the LORD their God and David their king. They shall fear the LORD and His goodness in the latter days.

This is a latter day prophecy that makes absolutely no sense if you transfer it to the church. The Jews have not had a king since Babylon and a sacrifice since 70AD. The promise is that they will return and seek the LORD in the latter days when the kingdom is restored even David and as a time when the sacrifice is also returned.

The Temple institute has replicated everything necessary to resume the daily sacrifices. Dan 9 speaks of in the middle of the 70th week the prince that shall come will put an end to the daily sacrifices. Rev 13 shows the beast surviving a mortal wound and then he is given 42 months to rule over the entire earth. Daniel 9 breaks the 70th week in two halves and 7 years x12 months = 84 months. Half would be 42 months. Rev 13 is speaking of the exact same time as Dan 9. Rev 13 5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue[fn] for forty-two months. 6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. 7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe,[fn] tongue, and nation. 8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. This is also when the mark of the beast comes. The return of the sacrifice is not a return to the old covenant but part of the stage for the tribulation leading to the 2nd coming.

There are hundreds of prophecy regarding national Israel that I can show you that all are still future.

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

I've never been a pre-tribber on the internet. I have never told someone on the net that Jesus Christ will come before or during the great tribulation.
When was about 14, my family switched from going to a Methodist church to a Baptist one. At about this time, I had started to read the Bible a lot. Didn't really hear about a rapture till we switched churches. I did not believe it as being at any moment. Why would God take out His best people when the big battle is coming against future believers? It did not make sense to me. The church had this guy that was coming soon to tell us about the end times. This caused me to even more read the Bible. Wanted to be able to understand things that he might talk about. Realized the rapture is just ahead of the opening of the 7th seal. The 7th trumpet will sound first. The great tribulation is over first. Understood some other things too.

The night comes for the supposed to be an expert on prophecy speaker and he begins as to how we won't be here. He had a chart of the statue in Daniel and basically just kept saying we should not care as we won't be here.
We can't understand it and don't need to.

I'd already seen that the Bible can be understood and this guy is wrong. The service ended and the guy behind me says to me that he is wrong. Told him that I knew it. There won't be a rapture till after the great tribulation ends. He agreed and talked for just a bit.
Went home, studied the Bible more. Was highlighting keys and making Bibles according to subjects around that time.\such as - rapture, 1000 years, Babylon, horses/because we had a horse, and more.
About this time, received a call from God that in the future, I'd be teaching Scripture. This caused me to soon carry my Bible at my public high school on top of my other books.
A lady missionary soon confirmed that calling, and so did someone else in another town that came up to me in a parking lot. Others too, have told me this over the years.

As a teenager, made a promise to God to tell someone new about Him every day. Told people at school, relatives, neighbors, and that led me to finding new people on the sidewalks and ending up at the public library.
Had my Bible with me as to the rapture and showed them how the Lord is coming back after the 6th seal is opened. One of those times, was only talking to a few people, but another guy went around and gathered up everybody there to come here this - girl preacher. Now, I'm not a preacher, just a witness for Jesus Christ.

Later, at about 19, working at McDonald's, warned two guys not to listen to the pre-trib rapture lie - with a bat at my head and threats that it would be swung again.
This led to witnessing to police officers and customers.

Told my parents, maybe at about 20 or so, not to worry if they ever heard that I'm in prison, as have given my life to Jesus Christ/since 15 and I'm willing to do whatever He wants me to. I'll be all right, as He would be with me.

Since those days, I've spoken at stores, put my life on the line, watched while security comes- but then stands back -while I just keep on speaking about Jesus Christ, at the mall, at Best Buy.
Oh sure, some have mocked while I spoke, but - they did not leave. No one that mocked me have I ever seen that I know of leave the store or such. I've handed out notes that I typed up and even with my dad outside of Christian bookstores have spoken to people.

Was offered my own prophecy radio show and to write prophecy for a major publisher. Turned both of these opportunities down, because I did not believe that I was ready. I've been thinking about seeing if they are still interested.

Many years ago, was asked to be on the prayer line for TBN. Made sure they knew that I would not be telling people the rapture is before the great tribulation ends. Thought they would say, then forget it. They, however, said that will be all right and on the phones I went. Yes, warning people there will not be a pre-trib rapture. Praying also for their requests.

I've never been a pre-tribber on the internet. I have never told someone on the net that Jesus Christ will come before or during the great tribulation.
When was about 14, my family switched from going to a Methodist church to a Baptist one. At about this time, I had started to read the Bible a lot. Didn't really hear about a rapture till we switched churches. I did not believe it as being at any moment. Why would God take out His best people when the big battle is coming against future believers? It did not make sense to me. The church had this guy that was coming soon to tell us about the end times. This caused me to even more read the Bible. Wanted to be able to understand things that he might talk about. Realized the rapture is just ahead of the opening of the 7th seal. The 7th trumpet will sound first. The great tribulation is over first. Understood some other things too.

The night comes for the supposed to be an expert on prophecy speaker and he begins as to how we won't be here. He had a chart of the statue in Daniel and basically just kept saying we should not care as we won't be here.
We can't understand it and don't need to.

I'd already seen that the Bible can be understood and this guy is wrong. The service ended and the guy behind me says to me that he is wrong. Told him that I knew it. There won't be a rapture till after the great tribulation ends. He agreed and talked for just a bit.
Went home, studied the Bible more. Was highlighting keys and making Bibles according to subjects around that time.\such as - rapture, 1000 years, Babylon, horses/because we had a horse, and more.
About this time, received a call from God that in the future, I'd be teaching Scripture. This caused me to soon carry my Bible at my public high school on top of my other books.
A lady missionary soon confirmed that calling, and so did someone else in another town that came up to me in a parking lot. Others too, have told me this over the years.

As a teenager, made a promise to God to tell someone new about Him every day. Told people at school, relatives, neighbors, and that led me to finding new people on the sidewalks and ending up at the public library.
Had my Bible with me as to the rapture and showed them how the Lord is coming back after the 6th seal is opened. One of those times, was only talking to a few people, but another guy went around and gathered up everybody there to come here this - girl preacher. Now, I'm not a preacher, just a witness for Jesus Christ.

Later, at about 19, working at McDonald's, warned two guys not to listen to the pre-trib rapture lie - with a bat at my head and threats that it would be swung again.
This led to witnessing to police officers and customers.

Told my parents, maybe at about 20 or so, not to worry if they ever heard that I'm in prison, as have given my life to Jesus Christ/since 15 and I'm willing to do whatever He wants me to. I'll be all right, as He would be with me.

Since those days, I've spoken at stores, put my life on the line, watched while security comes- but then stands back -while I just keep on speaking about Jesus Christ, at the mall, at Best Buy.
Oh sure, some have mocked while I spoke, but - they did not leave. No one that mocked me have I ever seen that I know of leave the store or such. I've handed out notes that I typed up and even with my dad outside of Christian bookstores have spoken to people.

Was offered my own prophecy radio show and to write prophecy for a major publisher. Turned both of these opportunities down, because I did not believe that I was ready. I've been thinking about seeing if they are still interested.

Many years ago, was asked to be on the prayer line for TBN. Made sure they knew that I would not be telling people the rapture is before the great tribulation ends. Thought they would say, then forget it. They, however, said that will be all right and on the phones I went. Yes, warning people there will not be a pre-trib rapture. Praying also for their requests.

I've never been a pre-tribber on the internet. I have never told someone on the net that Jesus Christ will come before or during the great tribulation.
When was about 14, my family switched from going to a Methodist church to a Baptist one. At about this time, I had started to read the Bible a lot. Didn't really hear about a rapture till we switched churches. I did not believe it as being at any moment. Why would God take out His best people when the big battle is coming against future believers? It did not make sense to me. The church had this guy that was coming soon to tell us about the end times. This caused me to even more read the Bible. Wanted to be able to understand things that he might talk about. Realized the rapture is just ahead of the opening of the 7th seal. The 7th trumpet will sound first. The great tribulation is over first. Understood some other things too.

The night comes for the supposed to be an expert on prophecy speaker and he begins as to how we won't be here. He had a chart of the statue in Daniel and basically just kept saying we should not care as we won't be here.
We can't understand it and don't need to.

I'd already seen that the Bible can be understood and this guy is wrong. The service ended and the guy behind me says to me that he is wrong. Told him that I knew it. There won't be a rapture till after the great tribulation ends. He agreed and talked for just a bit.
Went home, studied the Bible more. Was highlighting keys and making Bibles according to subjects around that time.\such as - rapture, 1000 years, Babylon, horses/because we had a horse, and more.
About this time, received a call from God that in the future, I'd be teaching Scripture. This caused me to soon carry my Bible at my public high school on top of my other books.
A lady missionary soon confirmed that calling, and so did someone else in another town that came up to me in a parking lot. Others too, have told me this over the years.

As a teenager, made a promise to God to tell someone new about Him every day. Told people at school, relatives, neighbors, and that led me to finding new people on the sidewalks and ending up at the public library.
Had my Bible with me as to the rapture and showed them how the Lord is coming back after the 6th seal is opened. One of those times, was only talking to a few people, but another guy went around and gathered up everybody there to come here this - girl preacher. Now, I'm not a preacher, just a witness for Jesus Christ.

Later, at about 19, working at McDonald's, warned two guys not to listen to the pre-trib rapture lie - with a bat at my head and threats that it would be swung again.
This led to witnessing to police officers and customers.

Told my parents, maybe at about 20 or so, not to worry if they ever heard that I'm in prison, as have given my life to Jesus Christ/since 15 and I'm willing to do whatever He wants me to. I'll be all right, as He would be with me.

Since those days, I've spoken at stores, put my life on the line, watched while security comes- but then stands back -while I just keep on speaking about Jesus Christ, at the mall, at Best Buy.
Oh sure, some have mocked while I spoke, but - they did not leave. No one that mocked me have I ever seen that I know of leave the store or such. I've handed out notes that I typed up and even with my dad outside of Christian bookstores have spoken to people.

Was offered my own prophecy radio show and to write prophecy for a major publisher. Turned both of these opportunities down, because I did not believe that I was ready. I've been thinking about seeing if they are still interested.

Many years ago, was asked to be on the prayer line for TBN. Made sure they knew that I would not be telling people the rapture is before the great tribulation ends. Thought they would say, then forget it. They, however, said that will be all right and on the phones I went. Yes, warning people there will not be a pre-trib rapture. Praying also for their requests.

Hi your teacher who was pretrib telling you not to worry about things is not how most pretribers respond especially when we can see the signs for the tribulation outside on the horizon. Most are trying to redeem the time and be bold for the LORD hoping for the rapture yes but not idly waiting for the bus to come. But preying steadfastly and sharing the gospel. The rapture is not a heresy and neither is your view of the 6th seal being the timing for the translation of the saints. It is a point we disagree upon.
There is not a lot of material on the rapture so the debate usually follows the same circles. But there is a lot of material on how to be ready to meet the LORD. In this area we should have unity fellowship and love for one another. I teach prophecy as well and establish the things that are emphasized and make the timing of the rapture a footnote as being ready is the key issue.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[Choose Wisely]

the trumpets....not His wrath, till it begins with the 7th trumpet
the full vials are totally His wrath
.

So you have decided that the trumpets are not the wrath?

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

Have never seen them as the wrath of God, until the 7th one. It is then that reward time is announced. Luke 14:14 shows that only then can the resurrection of the just take place. We are also told that -the dead in Christ -rise first.

It is impossible for the rapture to happen before reward time.
Paul told how a crown is laid up for him - and for all -that love His appearing.

Rev 4 the 24 elders already have crowns and are casting them before the LORD and this is way before the 7th trumpet.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

Revelation is not in the exact order that John saw and heard every detail. What happens in Rev. 11 when the 7th trumpet sounds? We find the 24 elders, which sat -fall and worship God. Right before this, it is announced as to what rulers are over the kingdoms of the earth. This is not because the world has been conquered, but the rulers of the kingdoms will now have a change in command. Paul told us how we are charged before the elect angels right now, but at the time of when Jesus Christ appears-Paul did not list the elect angels then as our judges.

1 Timothy 5:21

“I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.”

Revelation 4:10 can't happen unless 4:9 does first.

4:9
"And when....
4:10
The four and twenty elders...

If you read rev 4 5 they are grouped as if there really should be no chapter break. The angel who proclaims that no one was found worthy to open and loosen the seals of the scroll is definitely the set up for the seals opening which begins the events on earth and the events of chapter 4 are clearly preceding those of chapter 5 and 6. Rev may not be totally chronological but much of it is.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[Ronald]

My mistake, I do see some different viewpoints that we might have discussed.
Sounds like your heart is for the Lord's return.
You said, "the 7th Trumpet will sound first", then you said " the great tribulation is over first."
What about the six trumpets before #7?
In them we see much tribulation.
But your second statement doesn't make sense. If the great tribulation ends with the sound of trumpet #7, what exactly do you call the more severe, Seven Bowls (that contain in them the wrath of God), that are released at that time? That is part of the Great Tribulation, part of the 3 1/2 years.

I've never been a pre-tribber on the internet. I have never told someone on the net that Jesus Christ will come before or during the great tribulation.
When was about 14, my family switched from going to a Methodist church to a Baptist one. At about this time, I had started to read the Bible a lot. Didn't really hear about a rapture till we switched churches. I did not believe it as being at any moment. Why would God take out His best people when the big battle is coming against future believers? It did not make sense to me. The church had this guy that was coming soon to tell us about the end times. This caused me to even more read the Bible. Wanted to be able to understand things that he might talk about. Realized the rapture is just ahead of the opening of the 7th seal. The 7th trumpet will sound first. The great tribulation is over first. Understood some other things too.

The night comes for the supposed to be an expert on prophecy speaker and he begins as to how we won't be here. He had a chart of the statue in Daniel and basically just kept saying we should not care as we won't be here.
We can't understand it and don't need to.

I'd already seen that the Bible can be understood and this guy is wrong. The service ended and the guy behind me says to me that he is wrong. Told him that I knew it. There won't be a rapture till after the great tribulation ends. He agreed and talked for just a bit.
Went home, studied the Bible more. Was highlighting keys and making Bibles according to subjects around that time.\such as - rapture, 1000 years, Babylon, horses/because we had a horse, and more.
About this time, received a call from God that in the future, I'd be teaching Scripture. This caused me to soon carry my Bible at my public high school on top of my other books.
A lady missionary soon confirmed that calling, and so did someone else in another town that came up to me in a parking lot. Others too, have told me this over the years.

As a teenager, made a promise to God to tell someone new about Him every day. Told people at school, relatives, neighbors, and that led me to finding new people on the sidewalks and ending up at the public library.
Had my Bible with me as to the rapture and showed them how the Lord is coming back after the 6th seal is opened. One of those times, was only talking to a few people, but another guy went around and gathered up everybody there to come here this - girl preacher. Now, I'm not a preacher, just a witness for Jesus Christ.

Later, at about 19, working at McDonald's, warned two guys not to listen to the pre-trib rapture lie - with a bat at my head and threats that it would be swung again.
This led to witnessing to police officers and customers.

Told my parents, maybe at about 20 or so, not to worry if they ever heard that I'm in prison, as have given my life to Jesus Christ/since 15 and I'm willing to do whatever He wants me to. I'll be all right, as He would be with me.

Since those days, I've spoken at stores, put my life on the line, watched while security comes- but then stands back -while I just keep on speaking about Jesus Christ, at the mall, at Best Buy.
Oh sure, some have mocked while I spoke, but - they did not leave. No one that mocked me have I ever seen that I know of leave the store or such. I've handed out notes that I typed up and even with my dad outside of Christian bookstores have spoken to people.

Was offered my own prophecy radio show and to write prophecy for a major publisher. Turned both of these opportunities down, because I did not believe that I was ready. I've been thinking about seeing if they are still interested.

Many years ago, was asked to be on the prayer line for TBN. Made sure they knew that I would not be telling people the rapture is before the great tribulation ends. Thought they would say, then forget it. They, however, said that will be all right and on the phones I went. Yes, warning people there will not be a pre-trib rapture. Praying also for their requests.

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

I do not think they are out of order in that john was told to write the things that he has seen then the things that are and finally the things that shall take place after that. Then in Chapter 10 he is told“You must prophesy again about many peoples, nations, tongues, and kings.”

When you get to ch 14 and it uses the term lamb this is a title Jesus has had since John the Baptist called him the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. In Rev 5 the use of the article a Lamb and the Lamb is not significant as the a lamb is further identified as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth. This is clearly Jesus as ch 14 both the a Lamb and the Lamb also are the same. The a lamb has His Father’s name written on their foreheads of the 1444,000. The Lamb is the redeemer. This point you bring up does not tie chapter 6 to 14 even though the title Lamb is used in both to refer to Jesus.

 

[jgr]

God made an everlasting covenant with Abraham about his seed becoming a great nation and that national promise to the land was affirmed over and over again with a genealogy to the 12 patriarchs and follows a history over laid with many prophecies regarding this nation and to all the world. The covenant that is new I agree with you in in full effect that salvation in only in Jesus Christ who took the cup and announced this is the cup of the new covenant made in my blood. He said from the cross< "it is finished" or "paid in full and the veil of the temple was torn from top to bottom. So on this point there is no dispute the old is done away with.
The covenant was promised in Jer 31 and in the promise to bring a new covenant it is important to note that it specifies which covenant it is replacing. 1 “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt,

The covenant made with Abraham and the land of Canaan was confirmed by God as an unconditional covenant as the LORD consumed the sacrifices of Abraham and placed no conditions on Abraham. psalm 105
7 He is the LORD our God;
His judgments are in all the earth.
8 He remembers His covenant forever,
The word which He commanded, for a thousand generations,
9 The covenant which He made with Abraham,
And His oath to Isaac,
10 And confirmed it to Jacob for a statute,
To Israel as an everlasting covenant,
11 Saying, “To you I will give the land of Canaan
As the allotment of your inheritance,”
12 When they were few in number,
Indeed very few, and strangers in it.
The 2nd coming of Jesus is directly linked to the return of the sacrifices in which the abomination of desolation will occur in. Hosea 3 4 For the children of Israel shall abide many days without king or prince, without sacrifice or sacred pillar, without ephod or teraphim. 5 Afterward the children of Israel shall return and seek the LORD their God and David their king. They shall fear the LORD and His goodness in the latter days.

This is a latter day prophecy that makes absolutely no sense if you transfer it to the church. The Jews have not had a king since Babylon and a sacrifice since 70AD. The promise is that they will return and seek the LORD in the latter days when the kingdom is restored even David and as a time when the sacrifice is also returned.

The Temple institute has replicated everything necessary to resume the daily sacrifices. Dan 9 speaks of in the middle of the 70th week the prince that shall come will put an end to the daily sacrifices. Rev 13 shows the beast surviving a mortal wound and then he is given 42 months to rule over the entire earth. Daniel 9 breaks the 70th week in two halves and 7 years x12 months = 84 months. Half would be 42 months. Rev 13 is speaking of the exact same time as Dan 9. Rev 13 5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue[fn] for forty-two months. 6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. 7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe,[fn] tongue, and nation. 8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. This is also when the mark of the beast comes. The return of the sacrifice is not a return to the old covenant but part of the stage for the tribulation leading to the 2nd coming.

There are hundreds of prophecy regarding national Israel that I can show you that all are still future.

In God's New Will and Testament, all promises are fulfilled in Christ and those who are in Christ.

The OT promises are the promissory clauses of God's Old Will and Testament, and they are both revoked and fulfilled in the promissory clauses of His New Will and Testament, written in the Blood of His Son Jesus Christ, the Divine Testator, coming into full force and effect upon His death.

If you have made your own Will and Testament, you will see that the very first clause states the following or its equivalent:

"I HEREBY REVOKE all former Wills and other testamentary dispositions by me at any time therefore made and declare this to be my Last Will and Testament."

This means that all former wills and testaments, and all of their promissory clauses in their entirety, are completely null and void. In their place, the promissory clauses of the current last new will and testament are the only ones in force and effect. Any promissory clause which appeared in the old will and testament, but does not appear in the new will and testament, is irrevocably null and void unless yet another new will and testament is made which re-includes it.

Thus we see:

Hebrews 9
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Hebrews 10
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

Hebrews 8
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

God`s New Will and Testament is everlasting:

Hebrews 13
20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant.

There is none greater.

We see other new promissory clauses of the New Will and Testament in:

Matthew 21:33-45
In this parable, the son, who is identified as the heir, typifies Christ.

Galatians 3:16
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

2 Corinthians 1:20
For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

Hebrews 1:1,2
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

In them, we see that the Heir and Beneficiary is Christ alone, that all of the promises are affirmed and confirmed in Him, and that He is Heir of all things. All includes the OT land promises, the restoration promises, the blessings promises, and all else. There are no exceptions.

And His New Will and Testament contains even better promises:

Hebrews 8
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Such as:

Hebrews 11
16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Additional promissory clauses in...:

Romans 8:16-17
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Galatians 3:29
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

...make us who are in Christ joint heirs with Him.

But notice:
There are no promissory clauses for anyone, Jew or Gentile, who is not in Christ.

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

Deut 4 25 “When you beget children and grandchildren and have grown old in the land, and act corruptly and make a carved image in the form of anything, and do evil in the sight of the LORD your God to provoke Him to anger, 26 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that you will soon utterly perish from the land which you cross over the Jordan to possess; you will not prolong your days in it, but will be utterly destroyed. 27 And the LORD will scatter you among the peoples, and you will be left few in number among the nations where the LORD will drive you. 28 And there you will serve gods, the work of men’s hands, wood and stone, which neither see nor hear nor eat nor smell. 29 But from there you will seek the LORD your God, and you will find Him if you seek Him with all your heart and with all your soul. 30 When you are in distress, and all these things come upon you in the latter days, when you turn to the LORD your God and obey His voice 31 (for the LORD your God is a merciful God), He will not forsake you nor destroy you, nor forget the covenant of your fathers which He swore to them.

 

[joshua 1 9]

If there is tribulation even to this day around the world, the simple word "great" added to the word tribulation simply means an increase of what is currently occurring... Again, tribulation means trials and afflication, which from the beginning of the church age we have read about and bare witness to today.

Yes we have tribulation. The GREAT tribulation refers to what took place in Jerusalem when the temple was torn down and what will take place at the end of the church age.