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Tribulation and more...
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Brian, you need to address the specific poster. I'm thinking you were responding to my post only because it was the next post. That doesn't work well.,three people could posting at the same time and who you intended to follow gets mixed.
So I can't address this post, only that I agree with it. Romans 11 supports this.
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In Matthew 25:1-13 the Bridegroom uses the parable of the virgins to explain that there will be no second chances at His Second Coming.
This fact is confirmed by Paul's description of Christ returning in "flaming fire" taking vengeance on those who do not know God, in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10.
Those in the New Covenant have been "born again" of the Spirit.
We are the temple of God in 1 Corinthians 3:16.
In John 3 Christ said that nobody enters the kingdom unless they have been "born again" of the Spirit.
Galatians 3:2, and Ephesians 1:13 reveal when we receive the Spirit.
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Brian Mcnamee
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Hi Yes the LORD does come with fire and destroys the armies of antichrist and all. Isaiah 61 speaks of what the LORD accomplishes on the day of vengeance of God. I am posting most of the chapter and would note that your no millennial view is blinding you to see that after the LORD returns their is a continuation of events. In this passage not how it is addressed to those who mourn in Zion. God promises another everlasting covenant with them and makes many distinctions between those in Zion and the Gentiles.
To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD,
And the day of vengeance of our God;
To comfort all who mourn,
3 To console those who mourn in Zion,
To give them beauty for ashes,
The oil of joy for mourning,
The garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness;
That they may be called trees of righteousness,
The planting of the LORD, that He may be glorified.”
4 And they shall rebuild the old ruins,
They shall raise up the former desolations,
And they shall repair the ruined cities,
The desolations of many generations.
5 Strangers shall stand and feed your flocks,
And the sons of the foreigner
Shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers.
6 But you shall be named the priests of the LORD,
They shall call you the servants of our God.
You shall eat the riches of the Gentiles,
And in their glory you shall boast.
7 Instead of your shame you shall have double honor,
And instead of confusion they shall rejoice in their portion.
Therefore in their land they shall possess double;
Everlasting joy shall be theirs.
8 “For I, the LORD, love justice;
I hate robbery for burnt offering;
I will direct their work in truth,
And will make with them an everlasting covenant.
9 Their descendants shall be known among the Gentiles,
And their offspring among the people.
All who see them shall acknowledge them,
That they are the posterity whom the LORD has blessed.”
10 I will greatly rejoice in the LORD,
My soul shall be joyful in my God;
For He has clothed me with the garments of salvation,
He has covered me with the robe of righteousness,
As a bridegroom decks himself with ornaments,
And as a bride adorns herself with her jewels.
11 For as the earth brings forth its bud,
As the garden causes the things that are sown in it to spring forth,
So the Lord GOD will cause righteousness and praise to spring forth before all the nations.
in Zech 14 we see the very fire you quote melting those destroyed when the LORD comes with all of His saints. It is said in that day that the LORD is king over all the earth. It is a day when the MT of Olives will split in two and a new river will flow year round. It shows a continuation of events on earth with all nations required to come to Jerusalem to keep the feast of tabernacles or they get no rain even Egypt is singled out for this clause.
This literal view integrates the promised binding of Satan for 1000 years and those beheaded for refusing the mark of the beast and living and reigning with Jesus with a straight forward interpretation that it means exactly what it says. Furthermore is ties together so many loose ends at one juncture that denying mountain of promises has you taking so many passages as allegory when a straight forward belief of what they say makes sense without contradiction.
To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD,
And the day of vengeance of our God;
To comfort all who mourn,
3 To console those who mourn in Zion,
To give them beauty for ashes,
The oil of joy for mourning,
The garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness;
That they may be called trees of righteousness,
The planting of the LORD, that He may be glorified.”
4 And they shall rebuild the old ruins,
They shall raise up the former desolations,
And they shall repair the ruined cities,
The desolations of many generations.
5 Strangers shall stand and feed your flocks,
And the sons of the foreigner
Shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers.
6 But you shall be named the priests of the LORD,
They shall call you the servants of our God.
You shall eat the riches of the Gentiles,
And in their glory you shall boast.
7 Instead of your shame you shall have double honor,
And instead of confusion they shall rejoice in their portion.
Therefore in their land they shall possess double;
Everlasting joy shall be theirs.
8 “For I, the LORD, love justice;
I hate robbery for burnt offering;
I will direct their work in truth,
And will make with them an everlasting covenant.
9 Their descendants shall be known among the Gentiles,
And their offspring among the people.
All who see them shall acknowledge them,
That they are the posterity whom the LORD has blessed.”
10 I will greatly rejoice in the LORD,
My soul shall be joyful in my God;
For He has clothed me with the garments of salvation,
He has covered me with the robe of righteousness,
As a bridegroom decks himself with ornaments,
And as a bride adorns herself with her jewels.
11 For as the earth brings forth its bud,
As the garden causes the things that are sown in it to spring forth,
So the Lord GOD will cause righteousness and praise to spring forth before all the nations.
in Zech 14 we see the very fire you quote melting those destroyed when the LORD comes with all of His saints. It is said in that day that the LORD is king over all the earth. It is a day when the MT of Olives will split in two and a new river will flow year round. It shows a continuation of events on earth with all nations required to come to Jerusalem to keep the feast of tabernacles or they get no rain even Egypt is singled out for this clause.
This literal view integrates the promised binding of Satan for 1000 years and those beheaded for refusing the mark of the beast and living and reigning with Jesus with a straight forward interpretation that it means exactly what it says. Furthermore is ties together so many loose ends at one juncture that denying mountain of promises has you taking so many passages as allegory when a straight forward belief of what they say makes sense without contradiction.
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That "everlasting" covenant is found fulfilled by Christ in Hebrews 10:16-18, and is specifically said to be "everlasting" in Hebrews 13:20.
It is the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and specifically applied to the "church" in Hebrews 12:22-24.
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Brian Mcnamee
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There is a warning in scripture not to be led into every wind of doctrine and if you had nothing but a Bible and spent years reading and studying the passages you would very unlikely come to your view as you would need be led to that view. Once you are inside the maze you repeat the same familiar routes and ignore conflicting promises of God and reject the literal view that would be easily discovered by a straight forward reading of the texts.
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- Feb 25, 2008
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You'll notice that in Isaiah 61 there is no explicit or implicit mention or suggestion that it is about Christ. His Name does not appear in the chapter. Isaiah speaks in the first person, relating the passage to himself (The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound). Isaiah himself undoubtedly fulfilled this passage as part of his ministry over the course of his lifetime. Anyone in Israel before the time of Christ who read this passage would without question have considered Isaiah to be describing his own ministry. There is no one else of whom he would have been speaking.
Yet Christ quotes the excerpt from the first portion of the chapter and declares that He Himself has fulfilled it. His Name does not appear. Before He stood up in the synagogue and read the excerpt, and right up to the moment before He announced Himself as its fulfillment, no one would have believed that Isaiah was speaking of anyone but himself.
Christ declares otherwise.
If He would therefore lay fulfillment claim to a small excerpt of Scripture which does not explicitly or implicitly bear His name or anything else to identify Him, do you disbelieve that in fact the whole chapter is about Him even if He did not cite all of it?
This is perfectly aligned with His post-resurrection claim, also confirmed by Paul:
Luke 24
25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures
Acts 13
29 And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre.
That is why Scripture declares:
2 Corinthians 1:20
For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.
The whole Old Testament is about Christ. He has said so Himself.
The literalist fails to recognize this reality because he is viewing these truths through a lens of naturality (none of us is completely immune) rather than spirituality. (1 Corinthians 2:14)
You need to switch lenses.
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Brian Mcnamee
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Hi Jesus stopped mid sentence and noted that this day this passage is fulfilled in your hearing. He stopped mid sentence and the same person who is speaking of the acceptable year of the LORD is also one bringing the day of vengeance of God. I pointed to Zech 14 which shows the LORD returning with his saints and a clear continuation of life on earth after the LORD is king over all the earth. This transition from the tribulation to the millennium is at the end of the 70th week. The passage you quoted Jesus opening the scriptures to them I suspect he will do it again when He is reigning for 1000 years. The literal Israel being saved in the day of Jacob's trouble and as Paul said blindness has partially come to Israel until... Until the 2nd coming and they look upon Him whom they pierced. Then they shall mourn as Zech 12 and Isaiah 61 speak of.
Hosea 3 speaks of the return of the king even David will come after many days without a sacrifice or king. In this passage it is clear that Israel is the harlot wife that the LORD buys back. This promise cant be talking about the church.
Then the LORD said to me, “Go again, love a woman who is loved by a lover[fn] and is committing adultery, just like the love of the LORD for the children of Israel, who look to other gods and love the raisin cakes of the pagans.”
2 So I bought her for myself for fifteen shekels of silver, and one and one-half homers of barley. 3 And I said to her, “You shall stay with me many days; you shall not play the harlot, nor shall you have a man—so, too, will I be toward you.”
4 For the children of Israel shall abide many days without king or prince, without sacrifice or sacred pillar, without ephod or teraphim. 5 Afterward the children of Israel shall return and seek the LORD their God and David their king. They shall fear the LORD and His goodness in the latter days.
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When did they look on the Him whom they pierced?
What did the Apostle John say, below?
Joh 19:34 But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out.
Joh 19:35 And he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he is telling the truth, so that you may believe.
Joh 19:36 For these things were done that the Scripture should be fulfilled, "NOT ONE OF HIS BONES SHALL BE BROKEN."
Joh 19:37 And again another Scripture says, "THEY SHALL LOOK ON HIM WHOM THEY PIERCED."
(The Old Testament text is in Uppercase letters in the NKJV.)
When was the Spirit poured out and they "mourned" for the one they had "pierced".
According to Peter it occurred on the Day of Pentecost.
Peter addressed the crowd as "all the house of Israel" in Acts 2:36.
Peter was talking to "Israel" on that day.
Act 2:36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"
(They "mourned" by being "cut to the heart".)
Act 2:38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Act 2:39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."
Act 2:40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation."
Act 2:41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.
On that day about 3,000 Israelites accepted the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34.
When the Church began almost all of its members were Israelites.
This is confirmed by Romans 11:1, and James 1:1-3.
Based on Matthew 10:5-7, and Romans 1:16, and Galatians 1:14-18, the Gospel was taken "first" to the "Jew" for a period of about 7 years, before Paul began his ministry to the Gentiles.
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- Mar 13, 2018
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Brian,
Sorry it's been a while since I posted this...
Just so you know I don't believe Christ is the rider of the white horse as some do.
Sorry it's been a while since I posted this...
Just so you know I don't believe Christ is the rider of the white horse as some do.
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- Feb 25, 2008
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What is "literal Israel"? Who comprises it? How are they recognized? What are their distinguishing characteristics?
You can't build a doctrine around someone or something unless it can be specifically and precisely identified.
Such as the way the Church is identified, by faith and obedience in and to its Savior.
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Brian Mcnamee
Well-Known Member
That is interesting that john did quote from Zech 12 which I suggest is partially fulfilled as you read Zech 12 the events that are surrounding the day of mourning are Jerusalem being a troublesome stone to the whole world and the nations of the world are gathered against it and God uses Jerusalem like fire brand to the wood pile and in that day the day these nations are destroyed and they mourn is going to be at the 2nd coming when the nations are gathered against Jerusalem. At the time of Jesus Jerusalem got destroyed Zech 12 has not been fulfilled. Yes Jesus is the one pierced and John applied that in His gospel. The rest of Zech 12 never happened and is still to happen.
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What part of the following passage was not fulfilled during the first century, based on John chapter 19, and Acts chapter 2?
Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
Zec 12:11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
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Brian Mcnamee
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this day is linked to the time when God destroys all the nations gathered against Jerusalem which is the theme of the chapter. It is parallel to Isaiah 61
o proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD,
And the day of vengeance of our God;
To comfort all who mourn,
3 To console those who mourn in Zion,
To give them beauty for ashes,
The oil of joy for mourning,
The garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness;
That they may be called trees of righteousness,
The planting of the LORD, that He may be glorified.”
I do agree that many did mourn in Israel when Jesus died and was placed in the tomb. It is the 1st stage of repentance a mourning for our sin as we realize the weight of our guilt. The mercy of God and his love and restoration will turn that mourning into joy. In many ways this has played out for many people I see the 2nd coming as the promised deliverance accomplished in the day of vengeance.
This passage reminds me a bit of joel 2 being quoted at pentacost and that day of the LORD chapter also stretches out to the 2nd coming.
o proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD,
And the day of vengeance of our God;
To comfort all who mourn,
3 To console those who mourn in Zion,
To give them beauty for ashes,
The oil of joy for mourning,
The garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness;
That they may be called trees of righteousness,
The planting of the LORD, that He may be glorified.”
I do agree that many did mourn in Israel when Jesus died and was placed in the tomb. It is the 1st stage of repentance a mourning for our sin as we realize the weight of our guilt. The mercy of God and his love and restoration will turn that mourning into joy. In many ways this has played out for many people I see the 2nd coming as the promised deliverance accomplished in the day of vengeance.
This passage reminds me a bit of joel 2 being quoted at pentacost and that day of the LORD chapter also stretches out to the 2nd coming.
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Do you believe that many modern Jews will come to salvation at His Second Coming, as is taught by some proponents of modern Dispensational Theology?
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Brian Mcnamee
Well-Known Member
I do and see the text of Zech 14 as future and fulfilling much prophecy, It says in that day they will say the LORD is one. The LORD is prominent in this chapter and comes when Jersalem is being overrun, He comes with His saints. It is the day of vengeance of God and the Mt of Olives spits in two the enemies of God are melted. It says that the LORD is king over all the earth. To me this is the 2nd coming and Israel confessing the LORD is one is magnificent in that it is Jesus come with the saints. The chapter declare that this day the mt of Olives splits and a new river will flow year round. And it shows a continuation of events on earth as from that point on the nations must keep the feast of tabernacles or they get no rain.
This conversion combined with a great deliverance is tied to Zechariah in Luke one promising Jesus would be a deliverer to Israel according to the promises to the fathers that they should be delivered from all who hate them and then serve the LORD in holiness and righteousness all the days of their lives. The 2nd coming is the promised deliverance and the conversion of Israel and their being grafted back into the promise of God. The Jews must find salvation in the new covenant. This is when they are brought back in . Jer 31 speaks of this day too and after the promise of the new covenant God declares that as long as the sun and moon endure Israel will not cease to be a nation before Gods eyes. Then he promises that certain gates in Israel will be torn down never again at a time when their are dead bodies everywhere. This is consistent with a view that after Armageddon life continues.
This conversion combined with a great deliverance is tied to Zechariah in Luke one promising Jesus would be a deliverer to Israel according to the promises to the fathers that they should be delivered from all who hate them and then serve the LORD in holiness and righteousness all the days of their lives. The 2nd coming is the promised deliverance and the conversion of Israel and their being grafted back into the promise of God. The Jews must find salvation in the new covenant. This is when they are brought back in . Jer 31 speaks of this day too and after the promise of the new covenant God declares that as long as the sun and moon endure Israel will not cease to be a nation before Gods eyes. Then he promises that certain gates in Israel will be torn down never again at a time when their are dead bodies everywhere. This is consistent with a view that after Armageddon life continues.
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- Feb 25, 2008
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You still haven't told us who Israel is...
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The words of Christ found in the parable of the virgins from Matthew 25:1-13 stand in direct opposition to what you are saying.
Christ made it clear that they must be ready, before the Bridegroom arrives.
In 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 Paul reveals that Christ returns in "flaming fire" taking vengeance on those who do no know Him.
How do you resolve the conflict between these passages from the Word of God and what you are saying?
How much Jewish DNA will be required for a person to be saved at His Second Coming?
Will this last minute salvation include any Gentiles?
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- Sep 2, 2010
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I'm referring to the reference in Revelation 7:14.
And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
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Brian Mcnamee
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Israel is the descendants of the 12 tribes who are gathered back into the land. Through intermarriage and all it is arguable that all those are pure in Israel today but perhaps like Rahab or Ruth they made it in. The scriptures speak of the kingdom and the millennium and the covenant made in many places. We agree one covenant now for salvation and in that I hope we have unity in the Spirit on that.
The key to me is a difference between the covenant with the land and the promise that in your seed all the nations will be blessed. This promise of the seed is actually attached to the promise of the seed of the woman crushing the head of the serpent. Then later it is added to David his seed will not lack one to sit upon the throne. We get to Jesus and it is clear that the seed of woman and the seed of the serpent are the two masters that you can only serve one. Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Abraham's seed are those who have faith and are accounted righteous.
This area of truth we share and I do not see this having anything to do with the covenant of the land and the nation made up of the descendants of the 12 patriarchs. God redeeming Israel in the end is the great sub plot to this whole narrative. The passages like acts one bring up the kingdom. Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” 7 And He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority. 8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me[fn] in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”
The apostles understood that the kingdom would be coming again and Jesus did not say the kingdom of God is inside you or already here. The 2 angles or men in white “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”
The coming kingdom on earth in Dan 2 is described as a stone cut without hands and when it comes it crushes and leaves no trace of the image of the kingdoms of man. It becomes a mountain that covers the earth and this is the kingdom that has no end. Zech 14 shows Jesus descending on a day when it is proclaimed the LORD is king over all the earth. It is a day when the MT of OLives splits in two and a new valley and river forms that flows year round. It is a day when it says the LORD comes with his saints on a day when Jerusalem is being over run and the enemies of God are melted. It shows the Jews saying the LORD is one when it is the day Jesus has come. This is the great day of redemption. It shows a clear continuation of events on earth as from that time on the nations must keep the feast of tabernacles or they get no rain. Jude quotes Enoch “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, 15 to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.” The book of Revelation has two groups saying they will reign with Jesus upon the earth. in ch 5
Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 And they sang a new song, saying:
“You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
10 And have made us kings and priests to our God;
And we shall reign on the earth.”
Rev 20 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
When we pray the our father we say thy kingdom come thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
The angles declare in Rev 11
15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms[fn] of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!” 16 And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying:
“We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty,
The One who is and who was and who is to come,
Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.
18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,
And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,
And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”
This judgment and rewards is not the great white throne. The parable of the Minas is the reward here
“And he said to him, ‘Well done, good servant; because you were faithful in a very little, have authority over ten cities.' And the judgment will be over who is allowed to enter in the sheep vs the goats.
The binding of Satan during this time for 1000 years is literal and note when he is loosed there is a 1000 period where the nations who were once deceived are no longer deceived and you can see the antitchrist and false prophet are both in the fire for 1000 years. Dan confirms this in Ch 7 we see the 2nd coming of Jesus and the establishment of the kingdom without end and we see the pompous one being thrown into the fire and the other beast have their dominion taken away for a time and a season. Satan looses his dominion at the 2nd coming and never gets it back. Their lives being prolonged is 1000 years and the season is when they are released to tempt the world once more.
This interpretation is affirmed by the description of what happens at the end of the tribulation vs what happens at the end of the 1000 years. After the 1000 years Satan gathers an army and fire comes down from heaven and that is it then the great white throne and the new Jerusalem. The many promises of Israel and Jerusalem in this kingdom age run parallel to this timeline.
For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of His government and peace
There will be no end,
Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom,
To order it and establish it with judgment and justice
From that time forward, even forever.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.
Luke 1
“Blessed is the Lord God of Israel,
For He has visited and redeemed His people,
69 And has raised up a horn of salvation for us
In the house of His servant David,
70 As He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets,
Who have been since the world began,
71 That we should be saved from our enemies
And from the hand of all who hate us,
72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers
And to remember His holy covenant,
73 The oath which He swore to our father Abraham:
74 To grant us that we,
Being delivered from the hand of our enemies,
Might serve Him without fear,
75 In holiness and righteousness before Him all the days of our life.
This deliverance takes place at the 2nd coming and the Jews are now Messianic Jews having believed on Jesus think about how great that day is when Jesus has come and destroyed those who are destroying Israel and they see the scars on His body and they realize Jesus was one with the Father and is LORD, They will weep and mourn and He will then give them the oil of gladness.
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