Hillsage

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I agree with the doctrines of man being the divisive element. I cannot be yoked with JW or Mormons because they have fundamental differences from what the Bible teaches... I feel the same way with some other "Christian" faiths.
I have a question based upon this post, but also because of what 'Light of the East' said also, since I don't really know much about you. My question is this; What would you say is the absolute minimum requirement for you, to declare someone as a brother in Christ?
 
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Light of the East

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I have a question based upon this post, but also because of what 'Light of the East' said also, since I don't really know much about you. My question is this; What would you say is the absolute minimum requirement for you, to declare someone as a brother in Christ?

News flash!

Anyone who follows the Sunday observance is NOT a Christian in the eyes of the SDA. They are following a pagan Romanist teaching.

Kinda limits it, doesn't it?

But....I will also be interested in seeing what EastCoast has to say in response to your question.
 
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Hillsage

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Well, that is an interesting thought. I wonder, though, if this division of the human being into three parts is really an orthodox anthropology according to the Christian understanding of man?

Being 'more' unorthodox myself, I never really consider such things. ;) But in all honesty I don't know the answer. I've run in to 'dichotomists' here and 'trichotomists' from different 'what I would consider' orthodox denominations. I just continue to rely on scriptures supporting 'tri' better than 'di', as far as I'm concerned anyway; but I know everyone doesn't agree.

1TH 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

HEB 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow/body,


My point in quoting Romans 5: 18 was that the death of Christ has returned all of mankind to God.

We share that belief for sure. Jesus the Christ died for all, paid the price for all, reconciled all to God.
 
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EastCoastRemnant

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Actually, sir, having read your posts and interacted with you, I would say that you feel that way about everyone but fellow SDA's.
No, there are many on here that believe as I do that aren't SDA... I actually don't agree with many of the SDA brethren on some of the tenets and pillars that they are choosing to ignore or are being neglected to be taught.
 
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EastCoastRemnant

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News flash!

Anyone who follows the Sunday observance is NOT a Christian in the eyes of the SDA. They are following a pagan Romanist teaching.

Kinda limits it, doesn't it?

But....I will also be interested in seeing what EastCoast has to say in response to your question.
Do you post with such vitriol against the Messianic's who also believe in the sanctity of the seventh day Sabbath? Or the Jewish members, or even those that have come to recognize the seventh day Sabbath as the day that God wants us to set aside for time with Him? Why is it only the SDA that garners so much attention?
 
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EastCoastRemnant

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I have a question based upon this post, but also because of what 'Light of the East' said also, since I don't really know much about you. My question is this; What would you say is the absolute minimum requirement for you, to declare someone as a brother in Christ?
What I consider to be acceptable in a brother is someone that follows the Commandments of God and has (understands) the testimony of Jesus which is the spirit of prophesy. Part 4 of those Commandments is the Sabbath Command which hearkens back to the creation account and how God, when He was finished His creation, Sanctified and Hallowed the seventh day Sabbath. Spiritualism and Sunday sacredness is what's going to take down most of those seeking eternity.

Other doctrines like understanding the state of the dead or living in the time of judgement or other important Biblical teachings aren't salvational but can better prepare someone for what's about to happen to God's remnant people... I pray that God preserve me as I humble myself in complete surrender to ALL He has asked of me... because I fear(respect with awe) Him, I honour Him, I love Him therefore I obey Him.
 
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chilehed

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That the work of redemption is seen incomplete except by the penal suffering of the sinner rather than the union of the sinner to Christ in increasing holiness and change. The Roman idea of tormenting a soul with physical punishments for some legal purpose seems to be what is shining through here.
Penal suffering? Legal purpose? That's not a Catholic idea, and it's not what that prayer indicates.

Until I'm made totally pure, Christ's work of redemption in me is indeed unfinished.

And remember, God is pure Act. Everything he does, he does from eternity to eternity.

That is quite different from the Eastern idea of union through repentance, fasting, Sacraments, and quiet meditation.
That's the Catholic idea as well.
 
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Hillsage

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What I consider to be acceptable in a brother is someone that follows the Commandments of God and has (understands) the testimony of Jesus which is the spirit of prophesy. Part 4 of those Commandments is the Sabbath Command which hearkens back to the creation account and how God, when He was finished His creation, Sanctified and Hallowed the seventh day Sabbath. Spiritualism and Sunday sacredness is what's going to take down most of those seeking eternity.

Other doctrines like understanding the state of the dead or living in the time of judgement or other important Biblical teachings aren't salvational but can better prepare someone for what's about to happen to God's remnant people... I pray that God preserve me as I humble myself in complete surrender to ALL He has asked of me... because I fear(respect with awe) Him, I honour Him, I love Him therefore I obey Him.
Well that's certainly an interesting list. And it reminds me of a joke I heard about a 'tour of heaven', where Peter was showing a new arrival around and then Peter suddenly said "Shhhh you need to be real quiet when you pass by this door". "Why?" said the inquiring saint. Peter said, "Because they think they're the only ones here." :)

Honestly though, your demands seem more like things that fall in the category of what does someone has TO DO to be an 'acceptable good brother' in your opinion. I just want to know what you believe is necessary to BECOME a baby BROTHER. IOW get BORN into the family of God. And 'that' is going to precede your 'list' of DO's. I mean, honestly thinking, what if you met me on Sunday and witnessed to me until Friday convincing me to believe everything you said...and I did...Friday afternoon. But then I have a heart attack that night and die...before Saturday. I hope that 'logic' helps you understand my point. What's getting me saved from Sunday til Friday? That's my question.
 
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Hillsage

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Penal suffering? Legal purpose? That's not a Catholic idea, and it's not what that prayer indicates.
When I was a Catholic I remember having to DO penance after confession every time. What was 'that' for? And what was 'it'....penance that is. Since it's not in the bible I had to look up a definition

pen·ance ˈpenəns/ noun
noun: penance; plural noun: penances
1
.
voluntary self-punishment inflicted as an outward expression of repentance for having done wrong.

Until I'm made totally pure, Christ's work of redemption in me is indeed unfinished.
I'd say Christ's work is done, but the work of the Holy Spirit isn't done, conforming your mind to the mind of Christ as you work out the salvation of your soul (mind will emotions).

And remember, God is pure Act. Everything he does, he does from eternity to eternity.
I'm lost, the importance of Act, is what? Never heard of it before.
 
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EastCoastRemnant

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Well that's certainly an interesting list. And it reminds me of a joke I heard about a 'tour of heaven', where Peter was showing a new arrival around and then Peter suddenly said "Shhhh you need to be real quiet when you pass by this door". "Why?" said the inquiring saint. Peter said, "Because they think they're the only ones here." :)

Honestly though, your demands seem more like things that fall in the category of what does someone has TO DO to be an 'acceptable good brother' in your opinion. I just want to know what you believe is necessary to BECOME a baby BROTHER. IOW get BORN into the family of God. And 'that' is going to precede your 'list' of DO's. I mean, honestly thinking, what if you met me on Sunday and witnessed to me until Friday convincing me to believe everything you said...and I did...Friday afternoon. But then I have a heart attack that night and die...before Saturday. I hope that 'logic' helps you understand my point. What's getting me saved from Sunday til Friday? That's my question.
To you're point, believing that Jesus was the Son of God and died for your sins to be forgiven and that you have repented and accepted that promise... that is obviously step one... the one not merited by us in any fashion. From there, it would be to have an open heart to study the scriptures and follow as the Bible reveals, not as man says, or a denomination says but as the Bible shows it's Light. I would take you step by step through the prophesies and the other scriptures that show the Biblical understanding of the sanctuary and it's message, the exhortation to keep the Commandments of God and the safeguard of knowing what happens to us between the time we die and Christ resurrects us at His coming.

We are Justified through Christ's sacrifice and ransom paid but we need to be Sanctified through the truth as it is found in the Bible, being obedient to whatever is required of us through the Grace and strength of the Holt Spirit.
 
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Light of the East

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Do you post with such vitriol against the Messianic's who also believe in the sanctity of the seventh day Sabbath? Or the Jewish members, or even those that have come to recognize the seventh day Sabbath as the day that God wants us to set aside for time with Him? Why is it only the SDA that garners so much attention?

I have not read posts by Messianics who state that those who observe the Sunday Sabbath as being either not Christian or "practicing pagan worship from Rome" or as being "Daughters of the Harlot Roman Church."

I have very much read stuff like that in SDA literature and posts. Perhaps if you quit making such broad-brush statements about those who worship on Sunday, you would in turn not garner so much attention!!
 
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Light of the East

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Penal suffering? Legal purpose? That's not a Catholic idea, and it's not what that prayer indicates.

Until I'm made totally pure, Christ's work of redemption in me is indeed unfinished.

And remember, God is pure Act. Everything he does, he does from eternity to eternity.

That's the Catholic idea as well.

Sorry, but I must disagree with you here. Roman theology is based on the judicial speculations of Augustine and Anselm. While we in the East agree that we are not "saved once and for all and forever" as Fundamentalist and Evangelical people would state after making a decision for Jesus, the overall view of God in the Roman Church is one of an angry Judge rather than a healing Father.

For instance, read the accounts of some of the "visionaries" in the Roman Church who state that in their visions, they pit Christ against his Father by reporting that Jesus said He could barely hold back the wrath of His Father:

FROM A VISIONARY WRITING IN 2009: "as for the apostates, they will taste the fire of hell! My Father’s wrath is lit up with this evil and pervert generation; how can I hold back His Arm furthermore from lashing on you? Turn back from your evil ways was Our constant theme, but good and bad have been refusing to abandon their ways of life; the good for not taking My Words seriously in these messages and acting on them, the bad for refusing to be saved, refusing My Mercy, refusing My Hand; tell Me what will you do when you realize that Day that you are mere clay and that clay without My Presence within you, you are nothing but dust?"

Do you realize what a problem this is? The idea that Jesus has one will and the Father another, and that Jesus is working against the Father to hold back His wrath divides God into two separate wills. That is heretical (I think it is Sabellianism if I remember my heresies correctly).

THIS PERSON IS NUTS!!!!!

This is not the God I need in my life. I don't need the threatening judge and wrathful avenger. I need to be healed of my sin-sickness by a loving Father who administers the medicine of penance and ascesis to me.

Penal suffering and legal purpose is most certainly part and parcel of the soteriology of the West. You should do some reading of Orthodox books and authors to help you understand the difference between East and West in the vision of who God is and how He deals with mankind.
 
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Light of the East

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QUOTE="Hillsage

When I was a Catholic I remember having to DO penance after confession every time. What was 'that' for? And what was 'it'....penance that is. Since it's not in the bible I had to look up a definition

pen·ance ˈpenəns/ noun
noun: penance; plural noun: penances
1
.
voluntary self-punishment inflicted as an outward expression of repentance for having done wrong.

Thank you for bringing up that good definition. Now here's the difference between the East and the West. In the East, if a penance is given by the priest, it is not for punishment, but for curing the soul of its sinful desires.

In other words, it is medicine, NOT PUNISHMENT!!!

One even wonders how "6 Hail Mary's" even qualifies as punishment? Sheeeesh!!!

On the other hand, a penance such as "turn off the TV for 2 weeks and read the Bible" given to someone who has a habit of watching naughty films on HBO might go a long way further in helping that soul to heal, n'est ce pas?


I'd say Christ's work is done, but the work of the Holy Spirit isn't done, conforming your mind to the mind of Christ as you work out the salvation of your soul (mind will emotions).

Very true. This is what we in the East refer to as "theosis" and it is a major teaching of the Eastern churches. It is referred to as "divinization" in the Roman Church, but it is hardly ever taught or spoken about. What is in the front of that Church is the punishment of God for various sins and how to pray some prayer or do some act so as to get out of getting a whuppin.
 
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EastCoastRemnant

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I have not read posts by Messianics who state that those who observe the Sunday Sabbath as being either not Christian or "practicing pagan worship from Rome" or as being "Daughters of the Harlot Roman Church."

I have very much read stuff like that in SDA literature and posts. Perhaps if you quit making such broad-brush statements about those who worship on Sunday, you would in turn not garner so much attention!!
Those that worship on the seventh day Sabbath don't do so because it's considered just another flavour of ice cream. We do it because we believe it to be the explicit instruction of God. If you were openly practicing adultery and claimed it was your right to do so and gave a couple of verses to prove it, I would speak up and tell you that it is error and will cause your ruin. Believe it or not, I, and every other Adventist I know, proclaim these things out of love... otherwise, why would we bother? Not saying the message always gets conveyed that way but just as I might be gruff and harsh in yelling to you to get out of your house because it is on fire, doesn't mean I am not trying to help you.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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No.

We have to learn from the very first Christians, those who were closest to Christ and the Apostles, and in some cases, such as Polycarp, learned directly from one of the Apostles. There are far too many opinions floating around now that are merely the opinions of someone, yet are being treated as golden nuggets of divine truth. To listen to them over and above the first fathers of the Church is to put myself in danger of being swayed by smooth-talking arguments and persuasive doctrines of men, possibly to the danger of my soul.
I am not likely to use the writings of the church fathers as a grounding point. I hesitate to write anything else because I've deleted several versions of this post for reasons related to fruit.
 
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Light of the East

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Those that worship on the seventh day Sabbath don't do so because it's considered just another flavour of ice cream. We do it because we believe it to be the explicit instruction of God. If you were openly practicing adultery and claimed it was your right to do so and gave a couple of verses to prove it, I would speak up and tell you that it is error and will cause your ruin. Believe it or not, I, and every other Adventist I know, proclaim these things out of love... otherwise, why would we bother? Not saying the message always gets conveyed that way but just as I might be gruff and harsh in yelling to you to get out of your house because it is on fire, doesn't mean I am not trying to help you.

I understand this. As many of us have stated before, there are some problems with the idea of Saturday Sabbath worship

1. The Saturday Sabbath worship belongs to a specific people - the Jews.

Exo 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

2. It is part of the Old Covenant

Exo 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

Lev 24:8

Every sabbath he shall set it in order before the LORD continually, being taken from the children of Israel by an everlasting covenant.

Isa 56:6

Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;

Note that to keep the Sabbath is to "take hold of the covenant" But if that covenant no longer exists, then the Sabbath as taking hold of that covenant is also gone.

3. The Old Covenant is passed away and is no longer.

Heb 8: 13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

4. The Sabbath and the covenant that goes with it are a shadow of the reality which is to come, which is the rest we have in Christ.

5. The history of the Church from the very beginning was to worship on the First Day, or Sunday, as well as on the Saturday Sabbath. IN the NT, we see Paul going into the Temple to observe Jewish feast days, but later, as the Church grew and there came a severe division between Judaism and Christianity, this ended. The first believers were Jewish and they went to Israel and proclaimed the Good News of the Messiah's arrival. But the Jews wanted nothing to do with this, hence the separation from Jewish rituals into a distinctly Christian observance.

6. The idea that someone would read the Bible and "discover" something that hadn't been known for 1800 years, yet was all-important for very salvation, is a tremendous insult, not only to Christ's saving work and His promise to send the Holy Spirit to guide us in to truth, but to those men who established the orthodoxy of the Christian faith. You are willing to accept that God exists in Trinity, which came from the same men who also kept the Sunday Sabbath. If they were wrong on the Sabbath, how could you trust them for anything else? In every religion which has been established outside the apostolic Church, there exists the idea that somehow the men of the first four centuries of Christianity were not divinely inspired, and that they were in reality, kind of dummies who didn't really know the truth. Very insulting to men who died rather than compromise the truth, and in the case of anyone who established a new religion and new doctrines, such as Martin Luther or John Calvin, very filled with pride and arrogance.

7. Do I also understand (you correct me if I am wrong) that most SDA's have strict dietary observations which dovetail with that taught to Judaism? If so, then it is further evidence of keeping the Old Covenant and not moving into the New Covenant.

Every feast of the Jews in the Old Covenant was replaced by a new feast in the New Covenant. For instance, Passover was transformed into the Eucharist. Circumcision, the ritual of covenant-making to enter the covenant community, was changed to baptism. And in like manner, we are still to have a day of rest - but it has been changed from Saturday to Sunday in order to honor that which saves us - the glorious Resurrection of Christ the King. Without the Resurrection, we are still in our sins and lost.

I find it odd, therefore, that the SDAs eschew the very day upon which Christ arose and achieved salvation for all mankind.
 
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Hillsage

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To you're point, believing that Jesus was the Son of God and died for your sins to be forgiven and that you have repented and accepted that promise... that is obviously step one... the one not merited by us in any fashion.
:amen::amen:and again I say:amen: :oldthumbsup:

From there, it would be to have an open heart to study the scriptures and follow as the Bible reveals,
This particular point wasn't even available to 'the church' until the last 500 years. I'm of the persuasion that God's provision for our ability to succeed as Christians has been replaced by bibliolatry and denominationalism. Both of which has let being "led of the Spirit" in the proverbial dust.

not as man says, or a denomination says but as the Bible shows it's Light. I would take you step by step through the prophesies and the other scriptures that show the Biblical understanding of the sanctuary and it's message, the exhortation to keep the Commandments of God and the safeguard of knowing what happens to us between the time we die and Christ resurrects us at His coming.
All of which may be true, but as you said earlier, not salvific.....IMO. :(

We are Justified through Christ's sacrifice and ransom paid but we need to be Sanctified through the truth as it is found in the Bible, being obedient to whatever is required of us through the Grace and strength of the Holt Spirit.
I agree up until the point you say "found in the Bible". It is the Spirit's job to "lead and guide us into the truth." And that 'truth' may not even be BIBLE. If I'm eating with my morbidly obese 'brother in Christ' and we both order dessert after his 3 course meal and my 1 course....he just might just be a glutton 'in sin', and I might be a disciplined brother 'in blessing' according to the Spirit.

And being "Sanctified THROUGH the truth" is certainly not being puffed up with the truth of legalism. It is being delivered from SIN as we strive for "Be ye PERFECT" and "Go and SIN NO MORE." I am a whole lot 'more sanctified' today than I was 45 years ago, or 20 or 10. But, like Paul; "I am not yet perfect, but I press on to make it my own." And in spite of my present shortcomings I've been a good brother to have even made it as far as I have....I think.....God knows. ;)
 
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EastCoastRemnant

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I understand this. As many of us have stated before, there are some problems with the idea of Saturday Sabbath worship

1. The Saturday Sabbath worship belongs to a specific people - the Jews.

Except for the small matter of the Israelites keeping the Sabbath before they got to Sinai and received the Commandments... also Jesus said that the Sabbath was made for mankind, not just the Jews.
 
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